Always the same with the women [Archive]

Raindrop

5th February 2008, 10:12 PM

Well I can only speak for myself and not for all women and I've only been doing Kendo for 3 months and my thoughts are nowhere near quitting but I'll try to answer some stuff.

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
- Not for me but I gradually got used to that from different MAs before I even started Kendo. In general I think Kendo is one of the most aggressive MAs out there and yes, I think many women are intimidated by that, but then they are not cut out to do Kendo to begin with. I also think pecentage-wise less women are cut-out for Kendo than men, plus I reckon we have different reasons for doing it than men.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
I love the sculpting of the mind, the self control, the pushing your limits time and time again, not being afraid (In real life I'm a real wuss...) trusting other people in the dojo, having ideals personified and upheld. I also find it a real challenge, and it really helps me a lot not just in other MAs but also in every day life.

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
I haven't done any bogu drills yet so I can't comment on that, but unless there are some gender specific issues, I don't think anything should be adjusted for women. Everyone should push themselves as much as they can and as much is still healthy. That level differs per person.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
As I said I'm still pre-bogu but I think everyone should get the same general instruction methods with individual differences. Some people learn best if you stop and explain, others learn best if you call out instruction during the drills, while they do it, others need a hands-on aproach... I don't think you should differentiate between genders but between indivuals altogether.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
For me, it's the welcoming athmosphere in the dojo and the fact that people are serious about Kendo but still know how to have fun, and also they don't treat me any different just cause I'm female.

I'm thinking maybe there is really no issue with your dojo for women, maybe there just aren't any women who want to do kendo seriously (something you don't just know the first few weeks, I guess) that happen to be in your area.

I dunno. With all the stuff I've done in the past, I know that before the year is over you come to a point where you want to give up, sort of a dip, a phase between tackling the very basics and not making any visible progress for a while, but once you get through it, you'll stay for a long time.

Maybe just in general try to motivate women who start showing up less to come more often again and stick with it, you know? I wouldn't know how to, though, that would depend on them personally and how you dojo works and stuff :)

Yulya

5th February 2008, 11:55 PM

Our dojo has been around for almost 40 years but its been at least 20 of those since we've had any adult females stick around for more than one year. We now have two that have started practicing in full bogu since beginning with us last summer. I'm hoping they continue beyond the coming summer. In order for this ignorant male sensei to raise the chances that they will, I pose the following questions to females in these forums to assist me:
• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?

I'm aware I may sound condescending or male-chauvinistic but that is not my intention. I believe that the ideals of kendo have no distinction for gender but my experience has shown the execution of its physical practice appears to eventually overwhelm female participants. We have had no female sensei in the dojo for 25 years so I have no wisdom to draw on there. I've seen females in other dojos not only persevere, but thrive to become experienced sensei. I would like to have the same in our dojo. So please, no smart remarks like "It helps to have a cute sensei!", okay? Your thoughtful comments will help me as well as the two members I'm trying to encourage.
I thank you for your input.

Honestly, the only thing that would push me away from my dojo would be my sempai going easy on me because I am female. I don't feel uncomfortable at all, and I'm not the only female in my dojo.
I'm sure different women have different opinions on all of the things you mentioned though.
I think the best policy is to not differentiate between male and female in the dojo...everyone is kendoka. Yeah, women naturally have less muscle, yeah women are more fragile, weaker etc. But I think we women realize that very well and still decide to start Kendo knowing 90% of players are guys.

The only thing that bugs me though is not being able to take a 30 second bathroom break like guys can and having to endure the whole practice! When you have to chose between not drinking water before practice and getting dehydrated, or drinking water and then not being able to go to the bathroom (only applicable to long 2.5-3hr practices), it makes kendo a lot less pleasant!

Bokushingu

6th February 2008, 01:50 AM

I actually see more male drop out than female. The percentage of adult male dropouts are really high. Out 6 adult women that i have seen start kendo 5 stayed (2 made shodan, 1 Nidan). Out of my group of 10 to 12 men, I'm the only one left. And it seem like each year we have a group of men starting with only 1 or 2 staying. I don't think we can find a definate answer as to why people leave. All of the Drills & regi seem to be universal to me: i have seen drills that some guys can't do without sweating a river while women older than them can do with little effort & vice versa. i have watched small pretty girls dominate men's divisions at taikais.

Alison2805

6th February 2008, 07:19 PM

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?

Yes, to start off with. One of the biggest things you may run into is the fear of looking like an idiot and not wanting to yell. I helped do a demo yesterday and of the 5 women who came up for a chat afterwards, ALL of them were concerned that they would be too embarressed to yell, and that they would get clobbered and injured. I told them that while you DO get dominated by the taller guys at first, you get as good as them before long, and that yelling will become natural over time. Kendo for women can be a struggle against your own sense of embarressment for a while unless they are used to this kind of stuff.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?

The fact that its hard work, not everyone else does it (so it is unique to a degree), and because its damn good fun! One of the main things that kept me going in the beginning was the friendliness of everyone and how they made an effort to encourage me and let me know how valuable it was to the club if females stuck at it. Everyone is the club is close and we are all good friends.

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?

No, but make sure other beginner guys arent clobbering the heck out of the girls and shorter guys. Ive had beginner guys almost break my arm when I started and it really takes the fun out of it.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?

Let them know that the louder and more effort they put in, the more they blend in. Girls can get very introverted with the "everyone is looking at me" feeling, which makes them want to not stand out - unfortunately that is exactly what makes people stare at you - she isnt making any noise and isnt trying very hard, whats wrong with her? The louder you are and the more effort you put in the higher the seniors will think of you. Also let them know that a senior going hard on them is something to take as a compliment - they wouldnt do it if they didnt think you are good enough to handle it.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?

The fact that I find kendo heaps of fun, I enjoy the company of everyone there, and I have my own goals I want to achieve. I find it is good stress relief and stops me from sitting on the couch.

It is easier with more girls, but I got a heck of a lot of encouragement when I started and it made all the difference. Not the "youre great!" kind, the sort where people made an effort to grab me after training to help me with a technique they saw I had trouble with, or give me extra advice and answer any questions I had. It still happens and Im extremely grateful to the guys who help me like that. I know that is hard to do if you have a large group though.

I hope my rambling helps!

chainz

7th February 2008, 12:39 AM

in My case, we have a female sensei and the other is shodan , so the drill that she use are very hard, and sometimes very good ones, we had a 3 more female but 2 left 'cause the moved to orlando but once in a while they come to train with us, the other is busy with school.
with her the drill are somehow modificated, mostly high school kendo of japan, but very hard ones, she tried to look for stamina and speed and technique, and also when i do keiko with her, she teached me a lot.

absenteekendoka

7th February 2008, 01:03 AM

We never really treat female kenodka any differently than their male counterparts, what would be the point? Everyone however does have a diffrent 'style' of kendo and in that case its sort of subjective, some players are more physical ,others do a softer style, some its all in timing. You learn to do what works for you, regardless of sex. Some of the toughest kendoka I have ever practiced with have been women.

If anything Kendo has been an ideal medium to bring more introverted people out of their shells, particularly young ladies. It's always been interesting to see someone go from being timid to in a few months or so to being a tiger.

Hisham

7th February 2008, 01:30 AM

we had a 3 more female but 2 left 'cause the moved to orlando but once in a while they come to train with us.

Sorry for the little Thread drift but do both women know that there's a kendo dojo in Orlando?

I think Alisson gave some good pointers, it would be good if we also had a female sensei's perspective.

Kenzan

7th February 2008, 01:39 AM

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?

My question would be:

Would receiving feedback on what motivates or de-motivates a minuscule sampling of female Kenshi at lower grades and of varying cultures provide enough information to accurately depict generalized attitudes regarding training?

If that above statement were proven to be affirmative, would you then somehow augment your training regimen?

Mugu

7th February 2008, 03:47 AM

Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
Yes. But since I'm a tom-boy, I got no problem with it. When there are female beginners join, a lot of them seemed to get really intimidated by it.

If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
The people. What's better than crossing swords and making friends? Besides of the training, the discipline, and everyone does Kendo because of passion and self improvement; not profit.

Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
No. What makes Kendo unique is no matter where you go, kendo is the same everywhere. Besides, like many have said, women don't need to be treated differently than men.

Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
Not sure...yet.

What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
Well, besides that time of the month, there is also job. Especially sometimes paying bills versus Kendo - paying bills has to come first.

babayaga

7th February 2008, 04:08 AM

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?

No, but make sure other beginner guys arent clobbering the heck out of the girls and shorter guys. Ive had beginner guys almost break my arm when I started and it really takes the fun out of it.

Now I'm not a kendoka, but I'd like to expand on this as I may, from my experience in a contact martial art.

When new folks come in to the dojo, they're often feeling insecure -- which should be normal. But guys in particular often feel it's not cool to be insecure. And the last thing they want is to be trounced by someone else, especially a woman. Now, I see them doing the same thing with other guys -- because they don't want to "lose" by whatever definition is in practice, they go all-out with recklessness and inconsideration of anyone's safety to a degree which is unbecoming in budo. More mature players tend to have their egos in check, and have experience enough to use technique instead of gross physical strength. But a new guy, strength is all he has, and he'll be dammed if he's going to "lose" to the girl.

But it only has to do with gender while physical strength and leverage has a role. Part of it is personality. So if a sensei could guide those who need encouragement to the sempai who will encourage, and those who need humility to the sempai who will give them a sound thrashing, I think both types of students will get what they need. ;) In short, be proactive about practice pairings, and use sensei's prerogative to break up potential train wrecks. At least until the young bucks settle down, and the quiet ones get a little gumption.

-B

Alicia

7th February 2008, 08:05 AM

Currentlywe have only two of us girls in our dojo, both of us are nidan. Our instructor wants to start a womens class this year, which may seem silly with only two of us, but w are hoping to attract more women this way. It is saying "look girls do kendo, we even have a specific class" hopefully this will take away the intimidating aspect of starting in a class full of guys, and then when their skill/confidence builds they will be happy to integrate in the rest of the club. Thats the plan anyhow. We will be startig this soon.

Does anyone else run a specific women's training?

Kenzan

7th February 2008, 08:12 AM

Currentlywe have only two of us girls in our dojo, both of us are nidan. Our instructor wants to start a womens class this year, which may seem silly with only two of us, but w are hoping to attract more women this way.

I am curious as to why your Sensei feels the need for a separated class based solely upon gender?
Will this be an "adult women's class" or will it include children?
Certainly if the idea is based upon; "Female kenshi only fight female Kenshi in Shiai" this sort of training can be handled during a normal pre-shiai class, but why the need for a wholly separate set of instruction?

On what basis of empirical evidence collected is it assumed that an all-girls class would attract more girls?

What aspects of training are looking at to be changed?
-and why?

Of course you should not feel compelled to answer that at all,
Just some food for thought.

yoda-waza

7th February 2008, 03:05 PM

I am thankful to all who have replied, especially the females (I'm guessing at gender where the reply makes no distinction). In particular, Alison, Raindrop, babayaga and Alicia have touched on the insights I was hoping for.

In contrast, some of you guys responded in a way that was not as helpful. In fact you seemed affronted by the thought of modified drills or separate practices, as if you assume what is best for men should be no different for women. I was trying to broach this subject without appearing condescending or chauvinistic. I felt female feedback would be best to clue me in - I can get feedback from guys anytime. Some women, though certainly not all, may be more reserved, demure, shy - whatever - than a guy might be but they may still have the quiet resolve to persevere, whether for personal reasons, camaraderie or something else. If there is something in training that would better draw out the best in a new female member, could it hurt to ask here?

It pains me to see a promising female member being clobbered senseless by a male member with something to prove, especially if they are both fairly new to practice in bogu and neither have developed proper tenouchi. Kendo is not about brute strength or testosterone, of course, but there is no denying the physical difference in this regard among men and women. Despite the disparity, there are female kenshi here in the U.S. that have developed their kendo to a high degree not just practicing exclusively with other women. Those that I know of don't have bulging muscles (not that I checked, you understand :eek:) but they are mentally and physically strong, very quick in movement and embued with confidence, humility and equanimity. We all should aspire to those qualities regardless of gender. I just want to improve the circumstances in our dojo that can better assure that opportunity for females practicing with us.

Keep the comments coming. I'm hoping to hear from female sensei, too.

Alicia

7th February 2008, 06:16 PM

I am curious as to why your Sensei feels the need for a separated class based solely upon gender?
Will this be an "adult women's class" or will it include children?
Certainly if the idea is based upon; "Female kenshi only fight female Kenshi in Shiai" this sort of training can be handled during a normal pre-shiai class, but why the need for a wholly separate set of instruction?

On what basis of empirical evidence collected is it assumed that an all-girls class would attract more girls?

What aspects of training are looking at to be changed?
-and why?

Of course you should not feel compelled to answer that at all,
Just some food for thought.

Ok, where to start...

The initial reasoning behind having a women's class is that kendo can be seen initially as being loud, smelly and violent. These are not attributes that would generally appeal to your 'average' women. However, all of us on here know that kendo has a much broader appeal blah blah, *add in whatever your reason is for loving kendo*. I believe that when most of us saw kendo first, we could see through these 'negative' aspects of it and find the appeal to ourselves. It may be that as males it is easier to overcome these obstacles, or even, (typically) not notice them or see it as a problem. But i think it can be offputting to many girls.

We are not trying to tone kendo down here, the aim is that once people can get over the initial hurdle, they will stay for life. But by having a womens class we hope to make it more appealing/encouraging for women to start (maybe we are trying to trick them into falling in love with the real kendo, who knows). But the truth is, in NZ the predominant sport for women is netball, which is an all female sport, and just about every other sport is separated by gender, and had many female members. Traditionally 'male' and rougher sports such as rugby have a far fewer female quota. So maybe a lot of women like having female buddies to train with and socialise with afterwards, especially initially. I can't see that being too difficult to understand. Empirical evidence it may not be, but it is surely a trend.

I don't believe that people should be separated forever, in fact i think it is likely to be disadvantageous, but there is nothing wrong with using womens classes to 'bait the hook' as it may be, or at least take develop different peoples motivations in starting kendo. As i said, long term, integration is key, but there are also benefits. As mentioned, it is a good chance to train against other girls for shiai, not every girl and every guy fights differently, but there can be big differences, so it is good to train for them, and acknowledge the realities that your female opponent is different from your male training buddies (looking more from my selfish point of view than the new beginners.)

Training will not be hugely different, although may be able to have a bit more emphasis on individuals motivations for starting (fitness, self confidence etc). Maybe less kakarigeiko than in regular training, more emphasis on mental side of things, who knows, I am not in charge of that, and of course it depends on the particular group of beginners, but then so does all kendo. So no more difference than there would be if it was any other group. The plan is for it to be adults/teenageers, but of course if we get some keen kids, who are we to turn them away :).

The main idea comes down to not division, but development of confidence. For sure there are probably boys that are less confident, but we can't really run a 'shy boys only' class, where as it is wholly possible to run a women's class, so why not?

Sorry for the long rambly post!

(And we just had a seminar at which 3/5 visiting sensei were women, so if i had seen this last week i could have asked them!!)

Thank you,

Alicia

Moose

7th February 2008, 07:08 PM

How to get more adult women into kendo? ...............Grow your own.

Attract the teenage girls from school & college and nurture them. Once they're hooked you'll have a healthy crop of young women and that inturn makes it more attractive for others.

ne0r

8th February 2008, 02:01 AM

I think it is a good idea to spend some thinking on how to integrate more women into kendo. It is quite sad that there are only so few of them around even though kendo is not so gender-specific like for example rugby.

Lots of things to learn for myself from this thread, too, thanks everyone. I like the ideas that people came up with. Building up the ladies' confidence is crucial, I think, with so many men around them.

I am sorry that I cannot really contribute to this thread other than saying that you do a great job!

Kenzan

8th February 2008, 02:45 AM

In contrast, some of you guys responded in a way that was not as helpful. In fact you seemed affronted by the thought of modified drills or separate practices, as if you assume what is best for men should be no different for women.

My point is that if there is an problem in a Dojo with people being allowed to be too rough on females, children, or anyone, (common sense should apply) or if Kenshi are purposefully hurting other students, then I submit to you, that the issue is with the culture of that Dojo, not with something lacking in Kendo itself. I think this is the issue that's not really being addressed.

The Dojo should be a place where anyone feels welcome.

yoda-waza

8th February 2008, 03:56 AM

My point is that if there is an problem in a Dojo with people being allowed to be too rough on females, children, or anyone, (common sense should apply) or if Kenshi are purposefully hurting other students, then I submit to you, that the issue is with the culture of that Dojo, not with something lacking in Kendo itself. I think this is the issue that's not really being addressed.

The Dojo should be a place where anyone feels welcome.

No, it's not the "culture of the dojo" - we don't promote violence, Kenzan. The roughness I speak of is individual, usually among beginners with poor technique, and is corrected as soon as possible. But it still happens, even if unintentionally, and has been discouraging in the past to the very few women here that have stuck it out long enough to start practicing in bogu. It's not whether something is "lacking", certainly not kendo nor the way our dojo practices it, otherwise we wouldn't still be around after almost forty years. You might address your own thread to this separate issue so that it doesn't diverge from this one.

Our dojo IS a place where everyone is meant to feel welcome. That's why I started this thread.

I'm looking for female feedback, though.

mugennochikara

8th February 2008, 05:58 AM

many women take up kendo for their enjoyment. Many aspire to be team members of their federation or of TEAM USA. Women set goals and train hard , learn various wazas use those skills gained to compete against men or women .Gender does not matter because men or women are practicing and competing in a sport they love and respect. It's not always about power. Technique and strategy play a big role in Kendo.

yoda-waza

8th February 2008, 06:24 AM

I don't disagree with any of that. Kendo is gender-less and is not about power. I encourage all members, male and female, to aspire toward their goals. However, my questions remain open to feedback from female members here, thank you.

Kenzan

8th February 2008, 06:26 AM

No, it's not the "culture of the dojo" - we don't promote violence, Kenzan. The roughness I speak of is individual, usually among beginners with poor technique, and is corrected as soon as possible. But it still happens, even if unintentionally, and has been discouraging in the past to the very few women here that have stuck it out long enough to start practicing in bogu. It's not whether something is "lacking", certainly not kendo nor the way our dojo practices it, otherwise we wouldn't still be around after almost forty years. You might address your own thread to this separate issue so that it doesn't diverge from this one.

Our dojo IS a place where everyone is meant to feel welcome. That's why I started this thread.

The intention in my response was not to say that "your Dojo" specifically has any sort of problem so it really wasn't aimed at you.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the crux of your original question of the thread is "Why are there less female students generally in Kendo, and what can be done to generate more interest/retention in Kendo by women?" I am certain many students of Kendo also share this feeling, so I think your question is a quite valid and poignant one, which has a difficult answer that may not be so easy to address as simple training segregation.

Suggestion:
Have you tried formulating a questionnaire that you could possibly circulate at at your next Shiai?
I think you may receive more useful results.

Paikea

8th February 2008, 06:35 AM

Normal girls don't do sports, let alone staying on for an odd martial art that involves getting hit hard by men.I've heard a rumor that the good ones (kendo girls) hit back. Humor aside, this is a great thread...

Maybe I missed it, but for girls/women beginning in bogu, I feel a well-fitting men and a kote pad are essential. If you can keep them from getting hurt in the first few weeks after bogu goes on, the odds seem to improve that they will stay. Having said that, we still have exactly one woman who we would consider a long-timer at Obukan. It's a problem.

turboyoshi

8th February 2008, 07:17 AM

However, my questions remain open to feedback from female members here, thank you.

Well I'm not female but I hope it's ok if I add my thoughts.

I like Alicia's idea of a female only class and I think it certainly cannot hurt. In American culture, when it comes to physical activities, it's sort of expected anyway. At the least, if you try to segregate the beginners for a while, you may be able to determine if you really are losing students to the intimidation factor.

You definitely need to start collecting data to find out why they're leaving. Maybe on the signup forms you could have questions designed to find out what made them choose to try kendo. And if they leave, maybe a follow up call to determine why they left?

I think asking the women here is helpful but you're not getting the whole picture because as a general rule, these women aren't going to be representatve of the general population. These are just the crazy ones. :laugh:

Seriously though, the women on this list seem generally stronger minded than I think is average, or maybe just more tomboyish. To draw in more from the general population, a segregated class seems like a good idea. Once they get hooked and you have enough female sempai to go around, you won't have to segregate newcomers because the sempai can be the buffer the new women may need.

sean

yoda-waza

8th February 2008, 10:14 AM

Thank you for your thoughts, turbo. I am looking for "the crazy ones" responses. The ones that have gone are through with kendo for whatever reasons. It's the one that stay I want to hear from.

PlutoInLove

8th February 2008, 03:01 PM

I've thought very carefully about this thread, and about what to suggest, and I think I have come up with some really good ideas. So don't get discouraged, yoda-waza-san, I'm taking this very seriously and I think I have some good imput for you-- and also I am a female, like you specified! *looks down* Yep, boobies, definitely female.

However, I just got back from a very long practice and I'm just exhausted. Me and my kendo-partner (my sensei has disappeared off the face of the earth, so me and a friend get together to practice whenever we can to try to keep up our skills while we decide about switching dojos permenently) talked about this the whole time, and we scribbled down some of our thoughts, so as soon as I get a little sleep and stretch out my aching muscles, I'll throw it all together in a cohesive and cogent manner and put it online.

I know that this post was totally pointless, ultimately, but I couldn't resist. I'm just so excited from practice tonight and all the brainstorming we did that I couldn't help but pipe up. Blame the adrenaline! Anyhoo, I promise my post tomorrow will more than make up for this spammy nonsense. Trust me!

Eliza

8th February 2008, 03:14 PM

Hello to all the wonderful kendoka out there! I sympathize with you Yoda-waza. It is really hard to retain female kendoka. I myself have been practicing on and off for about 10 years now and have been through some rough times.

I think it really depends on the individual woman, so maybe you could try to understand them well and then kind of tailor your teaching around their attitude and capabilities. Some women like the tough teaching style and enjoy being the only female member and really thrive in that type of environment. Other women like to socialize and do kendo for recreation and are perhaps less competitive. Some women have a low pain tolerance so you should encourage them to tell others when they are pushed beyond their limit. Some women take different treatment as an insult and want to be challenged. People are so different, so I would emphasize taking an extra step to get to know new kendoka.

I would say that it does help to immediately include the women in your dojo/club family, take them under your wing and encourage them to grow in a non-patronizing way. Encourage the other dojo members to do this too. People are more likely to stay if they feel included in the circle and are not the odd one out. For some women, it helps even more if you have other women in the group that encourage them and are not condescending. From my experience, I really disliked it when there were other women with egos that saw me as a threat! You would hope kendoka do not have this attitude but some women are like this and actually discourage other women kendoka. Personally, I try to reach out to new kendoka, male or female, and just be positive in any way without being fake. Like if they show up for practice, give them a warm smile and welcome.

You can plan more group activities outside of practice like bbqs or potlucks or go go-carting, etc. I think psychologically, people like to feel special and part of something bigger than themselves and group activities really help. From personal experience this has helped our club.

There are tough women that do kendo and there are softer ones that need more understanding and agreeable environment to thrive. Like growing flowers....some need specific soil conditions and lighting and others need rough soil and bright sun all day! Equipment should be tailored as much as possible too. Getting a correctly fitting men and kote and the right size shinai really helped me. I was using incorrect sized bogu for a while before I discovered how much it was affecting my practice.

Reach out to new students, capture their heart, and they will probably stick with Kendo for a long time. Okay, hope this helps! Good luck! :wink:

Eliza

Alison2805

8th February 2008, 04:04 PM

Actually, if a womens only class/session is done for the right reasons I reckon it could be just the thing. I personally heard a rumour that a womens seminar may get held in australia at some point and frankly Id sell my left kidney to attend. Training with guys all the time is great, I love it, I dont find it intimidating, but it would be great to train with girls for a change!!! Plus its nice to get a fellow females perspective on shiai, training and the like. Something such as a separate training would be perfect for getting girls to start kendo, but you cant keep them separate from the guys completely because that would disadvantage them in the long run. Why not just part of a session or shiai practise just between the girls? That could build confidence and a feeling of being part of a close group. That seems to be a main theme from the women who have answered this thread so far.

BluishHue

11th February 2008, 01:41 PM

I really liked eliza's post above, i think that she also mentions some important things, no one likes to feel unwelcome and no one is better at making someone feel unwelcome than a gang of women that want to intimidate or refuse entry into their 'club'. You guys might not even notice it, but I have definitely seen it in different dojo's or while meeting other women kendoka. However, you fellas certainly can be nasty as well, if you truely want new female members, then you really have to welcome them and keep them feeling like they are valuable to your membership! I think a lot of the posters have said some great things!!

Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
I think it really depends on the female, it is aggressive, but in a different way than say rugby… now those are some tough gurls!!
• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you? When I look at kendo from when I started to where I am now, of course some of the appealing things have changed. One of the major things that I like about kendo is that I don’t have to worry so much about “the team” mentality. I only have to worry about how I am doing and not so much about ‘if I don’t do xyz right then the whole team suffers and then I am a lout’ and then I quit because of the ‘better players’ and the whole ridicule loser thing… grin. I really love the fact that I can be super duper aggressive, but not get sent to the emergency room at the drop of a hat OR be fouled out of a game. I like that everyone is ‘working’ on something and no one is perfect, even if I couldn’t tell with some people! I could go on and on about what qualities about kendo appeal to me, but I don’t want to bore you.
• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not? I haven’t run into a lot of drills that needed to be modified. Due to the lack of many experienced women kendoka in our area, there are definitely things that I (and my sensei’s) have found through trial and error, i.e. shorter tsuka for my much shorter arm vs. height ratio, narrower mune because it is harder for me to keep my arms extended if the mune is too wide as my shoulders\chest is narrower than a male’s.
• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
I guess if I had a sensei that hit me if I wasn’t going fast enough, or yelled at me all practice I would have a hard time. I don’t really learn well in a really stressful environment. Also, I think the other girls in my dojo would say that just having instruction that is patient is very important. OH, and some good humor is helpful especially when things are tough.
• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
Other than of course kendo… The atmosphere is sort of like ‘family’ or a great group of friends. Everyone brings something different to the table and makes us a fab group of people. Outside the dojo, we go out for dinner or a drink (or four), sometimes we go skiing, or hiking or have bbq’s or parties.

One way to keep women in kendo is to have sincerity in newbie practice, be non-patronizing and keep up the positive confidence building—remember that most women are taught NOT to yell, NOT to hit and NOT to be aggressive (because of course that makes you a bitch). It is hard to get used to the fact that kendo is one of the only places that you can be aggressive and actually get respect from guys for doing it!! Try that at the office :eek:

p.s. i would hate to be in a separate class. it would suck.

Codex

13th February 2008, 05:52 AM

Bokushingu raised a good point about male versus female drop-out rates. I wonder, if you estimated the ratio of males who join the dojo and and those that stay for over one year versus the ratio for females, would it be very different? Although I don't do kendo in particular, my general experience is that fewer women try out in the first place. Perhaps the main barrier is getting females to consider kendo in the first place?

come_love_sleep

13th February 2008, 11:59 AM

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
Possibly other females. Not me, though--the physical aggression is something I find very appealing, actually. Women are often not encouraged by society to express that sort of thing, so to have a medium where it's not only expected but necessary can be a great form of stress relief.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
The...completeness of mind, I guess, that comes from drilling over and over. Some ladies knit; I do kata. There's a fierce serenity in it that netted me easily. I like being challenged, I like being surrounded by people who are so very much superior to me in skill and practice(I've been going since September, and I was off for a bit with pneumonia so I'm very new), I like the fact that it's simply beautiful and that the people I've known who were good at it,when they were doing kendo, always seemed so bright. Like there was nothing between who they really were, and the world. The mental aspect of it all is pretty important to me--but also I like the fact that I get winded a lot less easily since I've started, that my asthma bugs me a lot less now that I'm using my shoulder muscles all of the time.

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
I don't think so. At least where I train, I've never seen a reason for the ladies to be treated differently from the lads. Girls are supposed to have more innate stamina than guys, anyway, aren't they? While I couldn't say for sure that this is true, it seems to me that for the most part we're pretty well balanced.

• Are there instruction methods that might help female members?
Extra words, maybe, since typically we're more vocally communicative. I don't think we need any more attention than the male members, just to not be treated any differently. I honestly think it would be damaging to my morale to see the men being treated in a strict fashion but then to be treated softer myself. I'm not there to be coddled; if I want sweet and soft, I'll start a book club.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
Just about everything. I like the other people there, I really admire my sensei(he's kind, but he pushes hard sometimes and has a sharp eye, which is wonderful), I like the fact that I'm treated well but not 'like a girl.' I like everything about kendo, even getting blisters, because they're blisters that mean I've done something neat.

Kiki

14th February 2008, 08:48 AM

This is a good thread. There is quite a bit of useful insights. Even the comments by some of the guys tell you what kind of atmosphere could be created at a dojo, some of it would, IMHO, create a discouraging atmosphere for potential women kenshi.

I am not sure if a women’s class is the answer, certainly not the only answer. Taking responsibility to help (mentor) female kohai seems more appropriate to me.

On the subject of atmosphere ...
When I first joined, there was one other women at the dojo. She was kind and helpful and we became friends. I would have continued anyway but it was nice to not feel like I was breaking into a clique. My past experience with sports is, if your are new to the team, sometimes it can take awhile to feel welcome, unless teammates make effort to reach out.

Kendo practice is a lot like being in school. Not much talking during class so effort has to be made before and afterwards to welcome the new person, male or female. To be honest, I had to force myself to say “Hi” to guys in my dojo some of them would just look away or be shocked that I spoke to them. Granted they were all just “boys” but still, if I was equally as shy, I may have quit. Eventually we became friends and now we have fun at keiko together. We notice when one of us is missing and always ask “what happened?” next time we see each other.

Kendo takes a lot of personal determination and if on top of that, no one on talks to you or worse ignores you it can be harder to find motivation to continue. Sadly, my friend had to give up kendo and I was the only female for a long time. Eventually two women joined. One 2-dan transferred in. The newer one, besides enjoying kendo’s challenges also feels “the people are nice”. I really think this is part of why she has continued.

Another example regarding atmosphere was begin asked by a sensei from another dojo to come more often to their keiko in order to encourage their girls that women do kendo and can practice along side men equally. This was a nice compliment. Maybe you can ask some women from other dojos to come to your dojo? It might be good for your guys to train with women and also good if new women come to try kendo.

With that said
• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
Yes it can, but some thrive on it.
• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
Challenging Spirit
• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
Not for gender just ability
• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
Yes. Because we can not always rely on being faster or stronger than our opponents we need to develop solid skills, finesse and patience. This is advice given to me by high ranking female sensei specifically about sparing with males. It applies to all kenshi really. Drills matter.
• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
I truly enjoy kendo. Responsibility and friendship. Good stress release.

Raindrop

14th February 2008, 07:25 PM

Some ladies knit; I do kata.

Wow. Will you give me permission to put that as a bumper sticker on my car?? :D Or maybe a t-shirt or on a poster for my office xD

+++++rep!!! :D

jmarsten

15th February 2008, 01:45 AM

Kiki

15th February 2008, 03:37 AM

Well we don't need your kidney, we will be happy to send you info about the next one we have here in Seattle. We've had 3 so far. We host a week long seminar in conjunction with our women's taikai. They are conducted in English if that helps.

Please post the details for your next seminar. The fact it's in English is icing on the cake.

samurai80

15th February 2008, 04:12 AM

Kendo?! Women?! Icing?! Cake?! The?! This thread is getting saucy!

absenteekendoka

15th February 2008, 04:52 AM

Kendo?! Women?! Icing?! Cake?! The?! This thread is getting saucy!

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm icing...is it one the women? ...and before the flaming sarts... :) ladies I apoligize for being so sexist. But it is a nice thought... :)

absenteekendoka

15th February 2008, 04:53 AM

....sorry meant to say 'on' not 'one' :)

come_love_sleep

15th February 2008, 06:00 AM

Wow. Will you give me permission to put that as a bumper sticker on my car?? :D Or maybe a t-shirt or on a poster for my office xD

+++++rep!!! :D

*Grin* Why, thank you! Absolutely, you have my permission. ;D
/*vain vain vain*

Hello_Kitty_Fan

16th February 2008, 01:45 AM

Wow. Will you give me permission to put that as a bumper sticker on my car?? :D Or maybe a t-shirt or on a poster for my office xD

+++++rep!!! :D

That is awesome. I'm going to put that in my office.

ixi

16th February 2008, 06:26 AM

That’s a very interesting discussion, and we wonder about the same things.
There are two clubs in my town. In my club we are two women in Bogu . After me (I’m Nidan) four others got their Bogu - and stopped. In the other club are also two women in Bogu, the younger is Shodan, after her four started to practice in Bogu and left after a few weeks…

The women who stopped were between 16 and 40, some very gifted, some not so gifted, some very fit, some had experience in other martial arts… some shy, some very strong and energetic…

I think most of the women don’t expect Kendo to be so “physical”. At first sight it looks elegant and effortless. One beginner even asked me after training “Why are you sweating, you nearly didn’t move?” She was watching us doing Jigeiko, while she did her first Suburi… So the first Taiatari/Tsubazeriai is quite a surprise. And, it’s true – male beginners use excessive force against women (not against men, I asked our boys).

What makes it more difficult for women who are not very convinced is the feedback.
The feedback of some (very few though) machos, who think that women can’t do Kendo.
And, more important, the feedback outside the Dojo: “Do I have to be afraid of you now?” “You are brutal!” (Seeing the hematomas after suboptimal Kote strikes) … and the hints that you are not womanly…

So why did I stay? Ok, Kendo is the most exhausting (and most painful) thing I ever did – but also one of the most exiting! I’ve grown physically and mentally stronger, more relaxed…

I will interest you that we actually have special training for women. Of course Kendo is the same for everybody, but it’s a nice change to practice Kihon against people who are not 30 cm taller and 30 kg heavier… Keiko consists of Kihon, Uchikomi, and Jigeiko in the last 15-20 minutes. There’s no need to change exercises for women or to train special things.

We really try to make the women stick with Kendo, so we invite every woman in the whole country whom we meet. We talk about difficulties, comfort them if necessary, tell the beginners what to expect in Bogu.

But not with much success, as you can see at the beginning of my post – puzzled…

Tort-Speed

17th February 2008, 02:07 PM

As I'd done other "budo" before and best friends growing up were boys,
no problem...except with some people who will push and I'm not very tall.
In Japan, tho, we females are expected to sometimes serve tea while I think
any sex person should serve the senseis...but in that aspect, we're thought of
as female. Otherwise, have found no discrimination insofar as being a female is
concerned (about being non-Japanese, well that depends...).

Mihoshi

19th February 2008, 06:14 PM

I'm a woman, I started practicing kendo with my university's kendo club, and then progressed to practicing with our sensei's dojo, once my interest sparked. I got my bogu May of last year, after two and half months of practicing without, and passed my ikkyu examination around New Years. Just so you have some context.

The hardest thing about female beginners is that a lot of them have very sensitive buttons, and they're often not of the same kind. Being female in contact martial arts is a difficult thing, mostly because all of us expect to be pegged one way or another, and inaccurately. One new female beginner may drop at the first sign of being treated any differently than the new boys (I was one of those), while the other may quit if they can't find a sense of female camaraderie. Some require both. There is no typifying female beginners. And, as someone mentioned above, the drop rate of female beginners, also, at our dojo is not even half the percent of male drop figures.

The worst kind of modification you could make is to have the others hit lighter for women, "simplify" waza for them, or have them only practice with other women. In the United States, the majority of tournaments are co-ed. Not only that, but since this is a weapons martial art, in theory, any woman should be capable of the same kind of mastery as a man, and be able to have an equal chance at defeating a man as a man does her.

With that out of the way, I'll address your original questions.

I don't believe physical aggression intimidates females, at least not in the way that most would imagine. It's not the fact of the aggression that's the issue, as women can be, and often are, aggressive with each other, it's just the manifestation of it in a controlled environment. The fact that you need to run into your opponent full force after striking, as if the body were cleaved in two from a katana, is a practical methodology, but is awkward for a typical woman to understand and accept since displays of female aggression are never this... I guess ritualized might be the word I'm looking for? Some of my fellow university kendoka who are female are loud as all hell outside of the dojo, yelling, shouting, making fun, pushing boys around no problem, and then are as quiet as field mice and barely touch their opponents when in bogu. If women have previous experience in sports where noise was necessary (i.e. calling the ball, cheering on teammates, grunting in tennis or squash, etc.) for designed purpose, you may have luck approaching the noise aspect from this angle. My first soccer coach spent three days with me trying to help me overcome my fear of getting kicked in the face (as I was keeper), and eventually found that he could get me to forget about a mouthful of cleats if I yelled my brains out while rushing the ball.

Other qualities of kendo that appeal? The competition, for one. I like hitting people, and this is not uncommon, especially not for women. To be able to do so well, efficiently, elegantly, against other kendoka (especially a sensei), even if it's just one strike, or one set of footwork, or one waza, is absolutely worth it. The drinking after practices, the other women in the group (one of my senpai is about to move in with me). Seeing other female kendoka who are really amazing kick ass, both mens and womens, is so heartening. The ritual. The history.

The modification of drills and such should be handled very delicately. Generally, I'd say absolutely not. But there are certain advantages and disadvantages that female players have over male/taller players that should be addressed. If you want to deal with it as a seperate group, I wouldn't suggest doing it during regular practice time. If you have any female senpai, have them confront the other women right after or right before class and go over some modified techniques taking into account female agility, lower center of gravity, smallness of frames, and hight deficit, especially the latter, which though it seems it would be a disadvantage can actually be used to extreme advantages during shiai, so long as the shorter player's spacial awareness is worked on.

Encourage your women to think beyond their gender. I don't know if your dojo allows folks to experiment with kamaes or styles, but there are so few female jodan and nitou players, make them think outside the box. Find shiais and demonstrations where strong female kendoka or female senseis are going to be fighting, and let your girls see what women are capable of. Inspiration is 9/10ths of the motivation necessary.

A lot of this is very generalized advice, and for that, I'm sorry. My body type and build aren't that of a typical female, so I find myself fighting a lot like a shorter, stocky male would, since I'm so broad-shouldered, most guys don't even notice I'm a woman till I take off my bogu. :D But a lot of this ties back into why I started and what kept me and my buddies going, so hopefully it'll be of some use.

Raindrop

19th February 2008, 07:32 PM

think most of the women don’t expect Kendo to be so “physical”. At first sight it looks elegant and effortless.

I think that might be the key point. The fact that bogu-less Kendo, is so different. I'm used to contact sport but even to me, it's a huge change after training without bogu for 3 months. Especially once you wear men and do ji-geiko, it's very different than the technical drills and I'm wondering if maybe many female beginners get the wrong image of what Kendo is and then once they're in bogu, they stop. This would also explain why so many quit AFTER they got to bogu.

I thought we were doing well but so far out of 6 women beginners 2 have already quit and another is not showing up often enough to even make it into bogu. 2 of us are already in bogu and I think we're both staying (I know I am ^^) and I think we'll have to wait and see about the 3rd one who still comes regularly. She trains really hard but I worry that she won't like being in bogu.

And I fear, this is something you can't really change. You cannot make Kendo more atractive to women who won't enjoy being in bogu and doing ji-geiko. Maybe you can ease their inhibitions and prepare them, but if they are not made for it, there's nothing you can do. And yes, I do believe you need a certain mind-set to face the challenge that Kendo poses. Especially if you're a woman.

I love both the grace of kata and the explosiveness of ji-geiko (the explosion of me being pwned, lol) but I've been prepared for this in my past with other MAs. I'm sure If I had not done Karate before Kendo, I might have run away too. Before I started karate I was very quiet, kiai-whatnow? Hit someone? Me???

So maybe some women would stay if they had a bit more time preparing them for bogu. I'm not sure. This is purely individual, and not generally for women. It could maybe even applied to guys, but I think for guys it's easier to get over that hurdle since they generally feel more pressure of "not being a wuss" ;)

But yeah, I think that's the key point of why many women quit after they recieved bogu and maybe that's what you could focus on, even if it just means sitting after practice, talking with the new ladies how they feel about the agression in actual kendo fighting (just hitting the motodachi repeatedly does not prepare you for jigeiko at all...) stuff like that. And I think a female sempai really does wonders in this aspect, to reassure you, answer questions you wouldn't ask a male sempai etc.

ne0r

20th February 2008, 01:17 AM

Perhaps before doing jigeiko with them you could do kakarigeiko/uchikomi in bougu with them before?

Kenzan

20th February 2008, 01:49 AM

Kendo?! Women?! Icing?! Cake?! The?! This thread is getting saucy!

Digg for family guy ref.

samurai80

20th February 2008, 04:32 AM

Can't believe somebody caught that.

Kenzan

20th February 2008, 04:53 AM

Can't believe somebody caught that.

From the same episode as:

"Mmmmmmm......You smell like th' inside of mah Mommah's purse...."
:D

ReKru

22nd February 2008, 01:29 AM

This was actually written by some woman on some website regarding 'medieval' swordfighting.
Sorry that I don't have the source.

Five Hurdles

Men and women think differently, we react differently, we have been conditioned differently in a prejudiced world. How can we expect men and women then to approach fighting the same with the same training and style?

I have found five hurdles that most women must overcome before they are on the same playing field that the male counterpart is. Because of the differences society has exposed us to, men, in general, do not experience these hurdles and may have some difficulty in even seeing them at all. For those gentlemen who wish to understand but do not have the reference, look at the stunned faces of the women reading this and you will see that it does make sense to her. Take it on faith, the hurdles are there, even if you have never experienced them. For the ladies who have been fighting for many years and have overcome these hurdles in the distant past, you may not recognise them for what they are. I firmly believe that I could teach someone in two years what it took me 12 to learn in trial and error. For those who were raised in a nontraditional fashion, without corporal punishment, possess a different sexual orientation or any outlook contrary to the established "norm", you are not immune to the effects of these hurdles. These conditionings were imprinted between the ages of 1 and 6 by parents, church, friends, day care, school, TV, commercials, public and so on. Even if your parents brought you up to believe one thing, "society" made up over 90% of the conditioning in your life and believe me, it imprinted.

That early conditioning is left behind in what I call the Lizard Brain. It's the reptile in us, the one that never forgets. It is concerned with only the basic needs in life and does not think about cause and effect. To the Lizard Brain, things just are, and it learned how the world worked by the time you were 6, and nothing has really changed. The saying "Everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten" is true. For those of us who are interested in changing the world, we must change the way we think first. Fortunately, the Lizard Brain can be overcome, with practice and understanding. To do this, however, you must understand what the Lizard is thinking if you are to overcome it's prejudices

Briefly they are:

1) Getting out on the field: Women spend on the average 7 times longer, getting the armor together than men. No matter how much help they receive, they will not go to the field until the battle between the ears is won. We have been conditioned to believe that boys do not compete with girls, (Look at the cartoons targeted at children--when boys and girls play together a boy always jumps up at the end and says "I win!". When is the last time you saw a girl play "Rock'em Sock'em Robots"?. Even the competitive sports teams are segregated in school.) There are dozens of examples, but let's face it this is a message that we have been bombarded with. So, when they are ready to believe that they can compete with men, in a male dominated sport, then they will go to the field, not before. Trainers can help overcome this by tackling the problem (competing in a male sport) not the symptom (getting the armor together). One last note. When she does get on the field, recognise this as the accomplishment that it is. The shadow of this will rear it's ugly head in hurdle 4.

2) I can be hit, in fun: 90% of the times men have been hit have been in team building, comraderie and fun. 90% of the time females have been hit have been in discipline or as a shock. Discipline as a child was associated to shame, even if it did not hurt, we cried, because we were ashamed, we had done wrong. So, he and she go to the field, he gets hit and says "Wow, a new game!" she gets hit and says "I've done something wrong". This is particularly true when the shot is sudden, and to the backside (head or butt, it doesn't seem to matter). The conversation with the Lizard Brain goes something like YOU'VE BEEN HIT YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. I'm fighting, I'm supposed to be hit, it's ok. NO, YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. But I'm fighting. NOT WELL, YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. I want to be hit. SO YOU'RE ACTING LIKE A BATTERED SPOUSE, NO ONE RESPECTS THAT, YOU ARE ASHAMED. There are lots of variations of the argument but the end result is a flood of unexplained tears. The Lizard is sure it knows the way of the world and is just as sure that you have done wrong. Understand what the Lizard thinks, and combat it with reason when it appears. Continue to fight, recognise what created the tears and continue. Trainers, you may have to tell the student what conversation just took place, it went by very fast and they may not have noticed. Sit down and talk about it, face it together and continue. Running away from the field or the stimulus will not solve the problem, it will just give a victory to the Lizard and he will continue to use this tactic to help her see the error of her ways and return to the norm (non fighting) after all, the Lizard believes he knows the one true way and will help her realise the right path.

3) I can hit without hurting: This is often seen when she hits the center of the shield, or won't swing at someone who is not swinging at her. This comes from the conditioning that we are nurturing creatures, not hitting ones. We were all taught not to hit, and then we see a boxing match. This is rationalised as it is ok to hit in some places, not others. Hmmmm, says the Lizard, all those places that it is ok to hit are between guys, so girls are not suppose to hit/hurt. The front brain can overcome this belief, but the Lizard will insert itself, particularly when she is pressed in a fight. Trainers, fight the real battle. The real battle in this case is not just hitting, but hurting. The Lizard does not want to hurt, that's wrong. Let her hit the shield, and then drop it at the last second and let her tag you with a hard, unblocked shot. She will apologise profusely, and ask her why she is apologising for hitting the mark. To overcome this hurdle she needs to know that she has not hurt you. It often helps to have her get into some rough and tumble fights to let her see that the armor protects her (and you) and that she is doing no harm.

4) I can't do this: This is a particularly vicious one. Every fighter comes across something that they can not do right away. A block, a shot, something. When she comes across it she will try and try to overcome it and if she can't there will be a building pressure, panic and tears. What? Let's slow it down and see what happened. The Lizard Brain has been thwarted a number of times so far. It has tried several times to return to the non fighting way it should be, and she has consistently overcome every attempt by demanding that the Lizard be out logiced or ignored. Well, here is something that she can't do, everyone can see that she can't do it. Lizard says "See, I told you this was a guy's game, here is proof. You've been wasting your time, you have failed, and everyone can see it. You're embarrassed, you should leave the field. You can't play this game." Trainers, if you see this moment, STOP! Pay attention, this is the most important point in the early training to dedicate to her. She does not want to give up on the point she does not understand, so explain it differently. If that fails, explain that YOU do not have the right words and have someone else explain it. NEVER use the phrase "This is easy" for men this translates to "With practice you will have this down" for women it translates to "You are a stupid idiot for not getting it." (More on language differences latter.). Move on to something else, but promise that you will return to this before the end of the evening, and then do. Remind her that all fighters have problems with a particular thing and show her what yours was and how long it took you to overcome it.

5) Go out and play: Men have a tendency to see where they are compared to all other fighters so they go out and fight every style and person they can get to. Women seem to be more content with knowing where they are on a given scale. As a result, they like to fight the same people over and over again. This suits the Lizard just fine, after all according to it, she should not be fighting and tells her that the people she is fighting are only being nice to her, because they know her. She is not really fighting on equal ground. Stick to the folks that know you and like you and won't let you get hurt, you can't really play this game, so don't go bother the big boys. (This is one of the reasons that women will fight in wars far more than tournaments. She has the protection of those who know her and will not let her get hurt, around her.) Trainers, point out someone else she should fight. The stronger the fight, the better, provided the other fighter does not fight with his ego and need to pummel everyone. Find someone who will fight a level or two above her and send her out, watch for a bit and then go elsewhere. Warm up with her, pick her next fight, then have her pick fights with others. Wean her away from her chosen group and insure that she fights someone new as often as possible.

After all of these have been accomplished, she can start to compete on the level that most men have when they walk on the field. Unfortunately, the Lizard wins far to often and she gives up completely. These five steps are not absolute and some will not experience each step in as great a depth as someone else might. It may take several months or years to overcome each of these. Don't rush it, each step will show in its own time, conquer it when it gets there. "

It's the Lizard's fault! :D

Yuralain

22nd February 2008, 06:44 AM

I always figured that the reptilian part of the brain reacted more clear-cut in one of two ways fight or flight. Nevertheless, this “5 Hurtles” article seems incredibly insightful in some ways; I recognized a few aspects in both my own training and the other girls that train with me. Buy today’s trends a lot of women have let go of some of those gentler aspects and women who do kendo seem to have less problems with some of those hurtles to begin with. But yes, some of those are hard to let go of when you’re new at this sport. :emb:

Yuralain

22nd February 2008, 06:52 AM

P.S.
I looked up the article, it’s from a book titled "The Armored Rose" is part of a collection of articles and essays put together by Tobi Beck.

http://swordmaiden.com/armoredrose/ in a new window.

Kenzan

22nd February 2008, 07:01 AM

Because as we all know, Kendo is exactly like the SCA.

But seriously, I'd recommend approaching the content of this author with a highly skeptical eye.

Just my 2 cents.

come_love_sleep

22nd February 2008, 11:14 AM

Raindrop

22nd February 2008, 04:22 PM

Hm. I dunno what I think of that article.
It suggests the same thing we're trying to avoid, doesn't it, saying that a woman is all women? And that a woman has to face these hurdles but men don't?
I was raised as a nurturer, sure, I'm the eldest of six children. But you want to tell me that that means I'm not a physically aggressive person when I need to be? I'll laugh in your face.

(Also it's somewhat suggestive of a fault in the author that s/he thinks 'possessing a different sexual orientation' should make any difference whatsoever.)

Yeah I kinda agree with you there. That article is really a bit weird. One sided. Like the author has a personal agenda or something.

For me for example, I find my aggression not in defense for myself, I never have, but in defense for those I love, and that's a very maternal/nurturing thing. When I was bullied in school I didn't do anything against it cause I didn't care, but as soon as my friends or my siblings got bullied I'd be there dealing out punches straight to the face. That's nature, the mother cat protects her cubs. There is no hurdle for me, it comes natural. I get really angry when I see injustice being done to someone weaker/helpless.

So in Martial Arts I learned that instead of having the agression of wanting to hurt someone else, I just project on each opponent that they have just hurt my loved ones. Sounds weird, but it really works. Maybe women do have a different source of the aggression, we have less reason to physically compete with each other for dominance, but we still are protectors in a way. (if you look at it from a nature aspect)

And I also have no clue what sexual orientation has to do with it. That's like saying all gay women are a certain way and all straight women are another way. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever. There are plenty of straight women who grew up as tomb boys, getting into fights and plenty of gay women who love wearing dresses and panic when they break a nail. It's all very individual.

Then again the whole lizard thing just makes the article ridiculous....

H.Sandsleth

22nd February 2008, 05:06 PM

That article is a load of crap...

Mihoshi

22nd February 2008, 05:27 PM

90% of the times men have been hit have been in team building, comraderie and fun. 90% of the time females have been hit have been in discipline or as a shock. Discipline as a child was associated to shame, even if it did not hurt, we cried, because we were ashamed, we had done wrong.

1. So is the implication here boys aren't hit for discipline's sake? Because that's not true.

2. Or is the implication that girls never hit or shove in a teasing, playful, or familial manner? Because ask any girl with siblings or a large family, or one that's lived away from home (i.e. boarding school) and you'll find that's also not true.

Also, it's interesting that the author thinks that the automatic reaction of "women" to subconscious victimization is to back down. Me and a friend of mine coming through kendo at the same time both had to deal with a Korean sempai who was, for a lack of a better way of describing it, mean to newbies. Constantly kept hitting us, even if the hits weren't valid points, even if we were just trying to adjust our bogu, or were trying to back away from a wall (since our dojo is very narrow) so we'd have enough space to continue. We didn't feel ashamed because he was trying to make us feel helpless. We got pissed off that he was trying to make us feel that way and fought back. And maybe that's why he did it, to get us to fight back, but I digress.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the author of the article has some interesting psychological pigeonholes that are very fundamentally flawed.

ReKru

22nd February 2008, 05:59 PM

Hm. I dunno what I think of that article.
Neither do I. That's why I posted it for discussion. :D
It's actually a good topic with the opportunity to shed some light on both side's behaviour.

It suggests the same thing we're trying to avoid, doesn't it, saying that a woman is all women? And that a woman has to face these hurdles but men don't?

Well, I agree with the majority that the author (a woman, as I said, but I really don't remember the source) seems to have a personal agenda.
But it's still obvious that there *are* some differences between the genders. In how they percieve and react to certain things.
You can see that separation in education starting in kindergarten - with "boy toys" and "girl toys", with "boy games" and "girl games".
Maybe this really has an impact on how you become in your later life and maybe analyzing it has the potential to help you overcome your own (socially imposed/artificial) "boundaries".

That 'punishment' thing - meh - strikes me as odd, but there might be something to it that the author misses and therefor draws the wrong conclusions.

I was raised as a nurturer, sure, I'm the eldest of six children. But you want to tell me that that means I'm not a physically aggressive person when I need to be? I'll laugh in your face.
When you need to be. :)
I hit people with sticks, because I can, not because I need to.
Maybe it's because of that "Boy's game" thing. I don't know.

come_love_sleep

23rd February 2008, 02:22 AM

Maybe this really has an impact on how you become in your later life and maybe analyzing it has the potential to help you overcome your own (socially imposed/artificial) "boundaries".

This is true--self-analysis is rarely a bad thing. But I think the author isn't self-aware enough to really understand what she's going for. It's an interesting piece as the beginning of a transformation; but if she stops there, with such a flawed basis, she's not going to grow or really learn anything.

I think that she should back off a little bit from the idea that women are This Way(and that This Way is different for bisexuals or lesbians or asexuals or transwomen, 'cause they're Not Like Me), and consider maybe that people who have trouble with the aggression simply haven't thought it through before putting themselves in a situation that required it.

When you need to be.
I hit people with sticks, because I can, not because I need to.
Maybe it's because of that "Boy's game" thing. I don't know.

Well, yeah, it's not like I took up kendo because I'm going to have to have it to survive. But I meant, I willingly put myself in a situation where I will have to be aggressive, and I do so full-well understanding what that means, not expecting any special treatment just because I come equipped with a uterus.

turboyoshi

23rd February 2008, 03:36 AM

(Also it's somewhat suggestive of a fault in the author that s/he thinks 'possessing a different sexual orientation' should make any difference whatsoever.)

The way I read it, she's saying that being gay does not make you immune to these pitfalls. Ie. just cause you think you're ultra butch, doesn't mean you don't subconsciously accept the cultural conditioning of your gender.

I'm not convinced I agree with her on this matter though. To acknowledge your sexual orientation is different from the mainstream, is already to have questioned, and rejected, the culural norm. If anything, this should make you more aware of internal bias and thus further along in your ability to overcome them.

I also consider the article to be amateurish in it's understanding of psychology and I doubt her numbers came from any controlled studies. Regardless, she's not saying anything we don't already know.
Each gender faces cultural conditioning and this may affect one's performance in certain activities, specifically martial ones.

It seems to me that kendo already addresses these issues considering it's philosophy towards one's mental development. To be aware of the 4 poisons and overcome them. That's really all this author is describing in different detail.

sean

ne0r

23rd February 2008, 07:54 PM

I think, in general, that it's a good idea to adjust your approach to someone, especially a beginner, according to the person him/herself.
There certainly are gender differences that may lead to misunderstanding, but in my opinion everyone has to face difficulties, they're different for everyone.

What we as kendoka have to consider is that kendo, being a male-dominated martial art, may use training methods that are better suited for men. Especially very physical kendo may be hard to get along with for women.
So I think it would be very interesting to take a nearer look at a martial art that is female-dominated, i.e. naginatado (as far as I know at least in Japan female-dominated).

"You can see that separation in education starting in kindergarten - with "boy toys" and "girl toys", with "boy games" and "girl games".
Maybe this really has an impact on how you become in your later life and maybe analyzing it has the potential to help you overcome your own (socially imposed/artificial) "boundaries"." (Rekru)
While there certainly are differences between gender I don't really see anything bad in them. We just are different, neither is this artificial nor should it be seen as "boundaries" in my humble opinion.

ReKru

25th February 2008, 06:29 PM

I think, in general, that it's a good idea to adjust your approach to someone, especially a beginner, according to the person him/herself.
There certainly are gender differences that may lead to misunderstanding, but in my opinion everyone has to face difficulties, they're different for everyone.

What we as kendoka have to consider is that kendo, being a male-dominated martial art, may use training methods that are better suited for men. Especially very physical kendo may be hard to get along with for women.
So I think it would be very interesting to take a nearer look at a martial art that is female-dominated, i.e. naginatado (as far as I know at least in Japan female-dominated).

But isn't that gender-bias, just from a different angle?
Not all guys are 1,90+ and 'built for kendo' (not even all top competitors).

While there certainly are differences between gender I don't really see anything bad in them. We just are different, neither is this artificial nor should it be seen as "boundaries" in my humble opinion.

Well, that's the question. How much of that difference is what we 'are' and how much is 'educated difference'.
If you're a boy and entrenched in your 'boy' behaviour enough to never feel the urge to play with barbies, you're not going to see the constrictions.
But if you're a girl and educated to 'don't get your pretty clothes dirty', playing in the mud with boys does has it's obstacles to you (I guess).

ne0r

26th February 2008, 04:00 AM

But isn't that gender-bias, just from a different angle?
Not all guys are 1,90+ and 'built for kendo' (not even all top competitors).

Perhaps you could call it that way, but what I meant was:
If
1) There are gender differences
2) Kendo's target is improvement, what not only means self-improvement but also improvement of training methods
3) Kendo is male-dominated
4) Different training methods are suited for different people
then
Kendo uses practise methods that are better suited for men. 4) and 1) would mean, that there are practise methods that are better suited for women et vice versa, because gender is a way to sum up a group of people that share the same attributes.
This would mean that kendo unevitably will use practise methods that are better suited for men. That's nothing very pleasant, but that's what I think.
Now our task would be to change 3) ^^

Well, that's the question. How much of that difference is what we 'are' and how much is 'educated difference'.
If you're a boy and entrenched in your 'boy' behaviour enough to never feel the urge to play with barbies, you're not going to see the constrictions.
But if you're a girl and educated to 'don't get your pretty clothes dirty', playing in the mud with boys does has it's obstacles to you (I guess).

In my head it loos like this:
There is genetic legacy and there is legacy of idea. "Educated differences" is legacy of idea. In general there is nothing bad with this. I really don't see anything bad in gender differences!
But still "bad" ideas can be handed down, too. Like women doing the same work and still getting paid less; that's absolutely unjust. But fortunately the legacy of idea seems to be subject to selection, too :)

Oh, and there is bad education.

Only my two cents.

I hope that all is understandable.

Lady_Kitsune

21st March 2008, 01:57 AM

About the topic of this thread, well in my case I've always hated that ppl treat me different cos I'm a girl, in kendo I found that there is no difference at all and male and female can do the same excersice and get strong in the same way.

about the questions

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
In most of the cases that is correct. Cos, even though women wants to be the same as men, there are still too many prejudice about how the treatment must be towards girls. So yeah, most of the girls I've saw passing by on my dojo got really scared.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
Is not my case, been practicing for two years or so now and for me Kendo is not about violence, even if you see it violent, is about personal growth, self control and discipline and I love that, helds my persoality down (I have my character and kendo helds me down a bit)

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
If I understood the word drill correctly, no I don't thing they have to modify them at all.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
I think the instruction methots must help female and male members the same way.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
The spirit of trying to do it better and being better all the time

max

6th April 2008, 05:03 PM

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
- for sure, the standard girl just will not do kendo, period. but i know for a fact that kendo does attract certain kinds of females (just like a lot of other martial arts), either those with a burning desire to become stronger/more violent, or those who want to be able to simply protect themselves. i guess kendo does not have as much of that "self-defense" aspect that attracts females to things like taekwondo or karate, so it's less popular.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
- i actually...and this might sound very strange...but i love the sound of the wooden floor getting stomped on and target getting hit. i've also been told that i'm an innately violent person, but that's not exactly what i want to be. i want to be more controlled, and be able to focus my strength (what little of it) on one specific goal, instead of flailing around in an attempt to get a point. i think kendo helps me with this kind of discipline.

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
- keep it as it is.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
- i don't know any particular methods, but what i hate most is when people go light on me, so light that their shinai does not even tap lightly on my kote or men, it just stops right above and they go past me as if they've actually got the hit. some people might think that it's better to do that, in case i get hurt, and i understand that. but at the same time i want to be treated the same as everybody else, so it's extremely frustrating to not be able to experience a real shiai (even if it is just in practice time) if i'm not being taken seriously.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
- i just want to be destroy the false impressions people have of me, and prove to myself that this is something that i can actually be good at.

imouto

10th April 2008, 07:06 PM

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?

It's what attracted me to kendo. And no, I'm not a tomboy.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?

I like the discipline and spiritual side of it. In addition to this, really there's not many sports out there that encourage you to hit a live target and yell, (well kiai). I love the uniform.

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?

I've only just started. Not sure if I am at all qualified to answer this one. I think the drills so far are fine. I've had no problem with them unless I get sloppy and my posture becomes incorrect. But that's my fault.

And can I emphasise the importance of a good sports bra here? Really absolutely necessary.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?

I have no idea. I've not noticed any.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?

The club I belong to is fun. The support is terrific whereby people will offer advice as to how to get technique correct. They also pull me up when I'm being too hard on myself. Three kendo lessons in and I was bitterly disappointed in not being able to get a successive Dō cuts correctly. I was told that this was somewhat of a rather high expectation as it is one of the more difficult cuts to learn.

Menpō

30th July 2008, 12:03 AM

My two cents.....
Beginning Kendo is hard enough....its a shock to the mind and body...from a group of about 30 beginners who started...I was the only one who continued after the first 3 months. I have seen other groups come and go and more than 90% will drop out. Recently our Dojo had quite a good share of female beginners and there were 2 or 3 I thought had it in them...but again they have all dropped out...even after investing Keikogi act. I was really disappointed because I had hopped those individuals would prove everyone wrong.

Of the 2 or 3 regular female Kendoka who have stuck around....my observation would be -
1) They are afraid to be hit, OR
2) When not afraid to be hit...they over compensate with an unnecessary level of violence and physical strength
3) When 2 above fails - they lose their form, temper and discipline

I sometimes practice with female Kendoka from Japan and Korea and of course the above could not be said to be true and I value their teaching (and the thumps I get on my Men). Should the question posed instead be qualified as "western women" or "women in a western society”?

To be slightly more unscientific -maybe women see Kendo as a social forum...a way to meet other people of either sex, something to say you've done, a conversation starter? The dedication of your time, of your body and your spirit to Kendo...seems to me to be lacking in women. But then again maybe we should qualify this by understanding the differences in the cultural significance of Martial Arts between East and West.

I will not give up hope but continue to look foward to having more females join Kendo and will do everything I can to encourage them to stick around.

Menpō

30th July 2008, 12:11 AM

PS - ONE THING THAT CAN BE DONE - would be to have experience female Kendoka teach beginers when they start if even for a few classes. That way female beginers will see that there are female Kendoka out there and even female instructors!

selegilineHCL

30th July 2008, 02:43 AM

Alison2805

30th July 2008, 05:41 AM

To be slightly more unscientific -maybe women see Kendo as a social forum...a way to meet other people of either sex, something to say you've done, a conversation starter? The dedication of your time, of your body and your spirit to Kendo...seems to me to be lacking in women. But then again maybe we should qualify this by understanding the differences in the cultural significance of Martial Arts between East and West.

Kendo as a social forum? What, like sport? Or like joining a university club? Well, yeah only women would be silly enough to do that, obviously. :confused:

Thats one of the reasons EVERYONE joins ANY kind of activity - To meet people, to do something different, get out and get active, have an interest in common with other people. Why do you think men join kendo?

The only people that join kendo to have a "conversation starter" are the samurai wannabes and ninja kids. They all drop out, and generally they are 99% male.

As for women lacking dedication - I know one or two women who arent very dedicated to thier kendo. But I know over a dozen guys who arent dedicated to their kendo. I dont think there is much difference.

If you look at the percentage of women who start and stick at kendo and work their asses off to improve, its MUCH HIGHER than the percentage of men who start and get right into it. Not that I think these kinds of "statistics" have anything to do with dedication, the price of eggs in China, or whether it will rain tomorrow.

What is it with old threads being revived this week anyway??

Alison2805

30th July 2008, 05:43 AM

double post.... bloody internet

Alison2805

30th July 2008, 05:50 AM

I tested at the Ken Zen Dojo at New York this sunday. I was watching the sho-dan test carefully because I was testing for the same rank. Out of everyone I watched, the person who impressed me the most was number
103.

103 was a woman.

It happens once in a millenia, like a passing comet. You probably wont see it again in your lifetime. I hope you took pictures to show your grandkids.

Kenzan

30th July 2008, 06:02 AM

It happens once in a millenia, like a passing comet. You probably wont see it again in your lifetime. I hope you took pictures to show your grandkids.

Kenzan sees what you did there.

..and he is very afraid.

Alison2805

30th July 2008, 06:06 AM

You should be. I eat squirrels for breakfast. With maple syrup.

Kenzan

30th July 2008, 06:24 AM

You should be. I eat squirrels for breakfast. With maple syrup.

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your underground newsletter.

Inner_Silence

30th July 2008, 06:31 AM

The only people that join kendo to have a "conversation starter" are the samurai wannabes and ninja kids. They all drop out, and generally they are 99% male.

HEY!!!!! I didnt quit kendo! :( now I can say to girls "oh yeah! Im a black belt"

you destroyed the last remaining of my self esteem

Yoh

30th July 2008, 01:44 PM

HEY!!!!! I didnt quit kendo! :( now I can say to girls "oh yeah! Im a black belt"

you destroyed the last remaining of my self esteem

Dont worry about it, as long as one day you didnt just suddenly see a poor anime with swords being swung around and people talking about protecting loved ones, then think "oh wow thats so cool, i wanna take any martial art that will make me more like that person", youre safe. As long as you do kendo for a personal reason, believing it adds something special or vital to your personality and demeanour, youre allowed to brag a little if you so choose; but still, youre practicing the art for right enough reasons.

sid

30th July 2008, 06:30 PM

HEY!!!!! I didnt quit kendo! :( now I can say to girls "oh yeah! Im a black belt"

you destroyed the last remaining of my self esteem

not to furthur crush ur self esteem inner_silence ,u can say sho-dan or whtever-dan :)
isnt a little strange to say 'black belt' whereas in kendo we have no concept of a 'belt' , in karate and taekwondo its ok though..

thats one of the reasons we prefer kendo that just by looking at a kendoka or at his zekken u cudnt judge his grade....
sorry its away from the discussion

Paburo

30th July 2008, 08:18 PM

Dont worry about it, as long as one day you didnt just suddenly see a poor anime with swords being swung around and people talking about protecting loved ones, then think "oh wow thats so cool, i wanna take any martial art that will make me more like that person", youre safe. As long as you do kendo for a personal reason, believing it adds something special or vital to your personality and demeanour, youre allowed to brag a little if you so choose; but still, youre practicing the art for right enough reasons.

recently i met a japanese girl who did some kendo in high school. when i asked her why she took interest in it in the first place, she said 'rurouni kenshin' lol.

you would think only otaku and fat geeks take interest in kendo because of movies and anime, but thats not always the case...

my sensei says it doesnt matter what brings ppl to kendo or what influenced them to start training, it only should matter ppl who stay in the long run (and survive his classes :silly:).

Alison2805

30th July 2008, 08:32 PM

not to furthur crush ur self esteem inner_silence ,u can say sho-dan or whtever-dan :)
isnt a little strange to say 'black belt' whereas in kendo we have no concept of a 'belt' , in karate and taekwondo its ok though..

thats one of the reasons we prefer kendo that just by looking at a kendoka or at his zekken u cudnt judge his grade....
sorry its away from the discussion

relax man, it was a joke :)

Yoh

30th July 2008, 10:55 PM

recently i met a japanese girl who did some kendo in high school. when i asked her why she took interest in it in the first place, she said 'rurouni kenshin' lol.

you would think only otaku and fat geeks take interest in kendo because of movies and anime, but thats not always the case....

This is a distinction that many people miss, however. There are good anime, ones which don't revolve around killing, glory, big speeches etc etc, and there are the terrible, "saving the world and my friends" animes, which are aimed at glorifying, and making children misinterpret the whole ideaology, of a weapon of death.

of course this is very subject to opinion, most animes could probably be disputed, personally the ones which i think give swordsmanship the humble, strong name it should hold are things like samurai champloo, rurouni kenshin, bamboo blade, (ya'll probably think its kiddy but i just love shaman king, though i admit it regressed)

an anime which i personally think is trash is bleach, i cant think of others which strictly relate to swordfighting, but the ones where a character looks for every given opportunity to kill the bad guy, then go on some enormous tirade (ok, speech) about friendship and sticking together.

Taking an interest in swordfighting because you watched an anime which gave a realistic, humble impression of it, in my opinion is great. Taking an interest because you saw an anime with cool-looking characters killing bad guys, and thinking "i want somes of that glory", on the other hand, bugs me.

sid

30th July 2008, 11:29 PM

ya ya Alison2805 , no problem :)
i'll try to find a suitable thread for that topic

Inner_Silence

31st July 2008, 03:30 AM

you are saying that my pick up lines arent suitable for this thread???!!!!!!

HUH??!!!!

(Im still kidding...)

Naginatagirl

2nd August 2008, 05:12 AM

Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
I think this depends on her background. If she's coming from an athletic background, I don't think it would intimidate. If she's never done anything truly physical (i.e. rugby, field hockey etc.) then it probably would.
• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
I like that it's a controlled place where you can take out your aggression and stress without actually hurting anyone (or at least without the purpose being to hurt someone). I like that it gets more interesting the longer you do it, because you start understanding more and more and realize how much there still is. I like that experience and creativity out-trump speed and strength in the long run. I like the feeling of getting a nice ippon XD
• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
I think most drills are fine. But the first time taiatari is taught may want to be looked at closely. A physically small person may have trouble learning proper taiatari against a physically aggressive person the first time around.
• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
If you explain things, we get it. If you try to pound it into us, less so. Combine both, and we're generally fast learners. I've found that verbal explanations increase the learning curve for women more so than for men.
• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
The group. I love hanging out with the club, especially with the other girls. You can practice kendo almost anywhere here, but I practice at my dojo because I have made friends there.

The club I practice at actually has a lot of girls. We've worked hard to retain them, and this includes having get-togethers outside of practice, like for shopping trips, martini nights, potlucks, bbqs, beach days, skating events etc etc. Sometimes with the guys, sometimes without. :]

yagyuu gal

26th August 2008, 04:12 PM

I started kendo in college and was all fired up about it for many years. The first 2 dojos I joined were great- the first a Japanese college club and the next in Dallas. Totally different experiences, but nothing to lead me to believe I wanted to quit. Fast forward 15 years, 6 moves and 2 dojos later and I have a much more cloudy outlook. After being dedicated enough to reach nidan, why am I still procrastinating going back after having kids? I practiced at one dojo until I was about 6-7 months pregnant (no men on after I found out :ko:) but I did iai and kendo kata plus kihon uchi. After the baby was born, I dragged him in the baby seat and practiced when he was quiet enough.... After this last move, I can't drag myself to the closest kendo practice even though it is a top level dojo, and I am honored to be associated with it.

Why?! As a lot of people have said, I agree that the atmosphere at the dojo is key. There are places that are just plain friendlier or warmer. The feeling of mutual respect is spread throughout all members. Practice is hard but not so much that you feel physically inferior. Members spend a little extra time with each other before or after talking about family, life, all the other stuff.

Personally, I prefer that kind of place, but some would say that is a 'social club' and not kendo. If everyone practices hard because they want to and chat afterward because they enjoy talking with other members, is that really a social club?

I think there is a fine line between enjoying kendo and getting too social. There is also a fine line between help and too much constructive criticism; competitiveness and losing sight that everyone has their own reasons and goals for continuing. There are many ways that any dojo can morph into an environment that is not conducive to everyone reaching their full potential. Maybe women are just more attuned to those dynamics.

If women leave after practicing in their full bogu a few times, I don't think those are the people we should be worrying about. It's the ladies who have a desire to continue and the drive to get in there and get bruised anyway but don't come back that we should all try to keep. I know there are others like me. We want to get back but something critical is missing....

Is there a critical number of women per dojo that helps to keep it going? Just one woman is hard. Especially when the other 'women' in the dojo are the wives and mothers of members. Lady sensei would be wonderful but few and far between. The most active women seem to be the uber competitive young ones without families.

Sorry for the meandering. I can't figure it out myself. Hope this thread keeps evolving....

yoda-waza

26th August 2008, 05:18 PM

We had three adult females practicing in bogu for a while until very recently. One moved away (and still practices at the new dojo), one can no longer handle being hit on the head and the third suffers bouts of asthma. We have no females now - again. If you're experienced enough in kendo to be ni-dan maybe you can shed some insight from your experience? You say "something critical is missing" but what is it? Why did you practice before but not now?

Shinsengumi77

27th August 2008, 05:15 AM

This thread is really interesting. I'm the only guy left in our kendo club, which is taught by a female, and the majority of people who ask about it are women. Of course, 99% of everyone who tries it out quits within a few weeks (as you all know, sadly), but the 1% that sticks with it would probably be a girl, at least for our club.

Shinsengumi77

27th August 2008, 05:20 AM

There is also a fine line between help and too much constructive criticism

This is very true. My girlfriend, who does Kendo with me, has told me this many times. She gets very discouraged and upset if she gets corrected on things that she already knows need correcting, especially if she is told over and over. Not sure if this is really important or anything, but this is my experience with it anyway.

yagyuu gal

27th August 2008, 10:12 AM

I have trouble accepting tips/help from SO too. I don't mind sensei or a well-respected sempai, but I hate the 'I know more about kendo so I can help you' from certain people. This is a personal problem I need to get over. I should be open to comments from anyone, I know, but I admit to being weak and resenting it from the SO......

I strongly believe that everyone should take the personal responsibility to look inside and out to improve their kendo. I don't believe in spoonfeeding all the 'secrets' or constantly giving feedback to my iai students either. It's very important to develop the ability to really see how others do kendo/iai and improve yourself. Giving others the chance to see, learn, and apply by themselves is another way of showing your respect for their ability..... IMHO.

H.Sandsleth

27th August 2008, 04:34 PM

bobdonny

27th August 2008, 04:55 PM

This is very true. My girlfriend, who does Kendo with me, has told me this many times. She gets very discouraged and upset if she gets corrected on things that she already knows need correcting, especially if she is told over and over. Not sure if this is really important or anything, but this is my experience with it anyway.

A famous dude once said,

Getting critisied is a compliment, it shows the person critiquing cares enough about you to offer advice. Its a far worse thing to do something wrong, know you are doing it wrong, but have no one tell you. Then you know they don't care.

Shinsengumi77

27th August 2008, 11:06 PM

So you are basically the only male in the dojo?? How does that work for you?

It really doesn't bother me all that much, though it would be nice to have at least one guy. And we're a really small club anyways, so it's not like I'm a rowboat in a sea of estrogen. ^-^ As long as I get to keiko with someone, I'm fine.

A famous dude once said,
Quote:
Getting critisied is a compliment, it shows the person critiquing cares enough about you to offer advice. Its a far worse thing to do something wrong, know you are doing it wrong, but have no one tell you. Then you know they don't care.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but some people take it more personally, I guess. I guess in some way my girlfriend feels smothered with compassion and love... ^-^

SamuelRiv

30th September 2008, 02:54 AM

Apologies but I didn't read the entire thread. I just want to say that the sword (or many other weapons in general) is a great equalizer of physical size and strength, so female and male fencers and kendoka are able to practice together in a way that few other sports or especially martial arts can. Fencing usually is pretty well-balanced between men and women, so why not kendo? I think it's the false perception of the amount of power that is actually in the sport, where the real strength comes from technique and finesse. Kiai and tai-atari admittedly don't help this much when they're seen by noobs.

A lot of smaller men and women come through the dojo who are afraid or feel off-balanced when they extend their arms, which I think is because of the weight and length of the shinai relative to their body and shoulder size. This is one thing that seems to really be able to scare off the less-macho beginners, so I've felt that emphasizing driving the blade with the legs and core and correcting posture in the first two days is essential. I mean, that's just proper technique, but I never see enough kendo yudansha emphasizing legs and core over arms - we forget that it's easier if we're strong-built to just work our way through the strokes to find the most efficient way to move the blade, but the shorts and skinnies just don't have that luxury. One training method that may help is squat and lunge cuts that force the player into a wide base with a straight back to maintain balance. Maybe this is wrong, but in squats I tell smaller people to extend their arms and lean as far back as possible, using the shinai extension as a counterweight.

For kiai, I think proper breath control should be emphasized over loudness or ferocity - moving the diaphragm up and breathing calmly seems far more important - to train this I usually say, "pretend you're singing an opera" (sensei, please let me know if that's a false analogy). I've seen many sempai try to push loudness or trilling in kiai in the first days, but this just risks straining the throat (even in the first year it seems too early to stress loudness) and makes kiai seem like just some outdated macho-man deal as opposed to the critical training technique that it actually is.

Finally, for tai-atari, it's again a matter of legs and core. We all know beginners try to push with their arms and back - take them aside the first week and do following and clashing drills in tsuba-zerai - once the girls and small guys are able to knock you over, they'll have gained a mountain of confidence in their potential in the sport.

hl1978

30th September 2008, 05:50 AM

Neil Gendzwill

30th September 2008, 05:58 AM

I have no idea how many female players were involved in pre-war kendo, but perhaps more knowledgable people can comment if this is a post war kendo thing?Somewhere close to 0, I suspect. Female kendo players are a modern thing.

In its current form strength really isn't an issue.Tell that to all the serious competitors hitting the gym. It's a physical activity, strength and speed play a role. Women are not on an equal footing with men physically and are disadvantaged in kendo as they are in most sports. The fact that they can many times beat the guys is attributable to a) the equalizing factor of the weapon and b) some of the kick-ass women we have playing kendo.

MartialArtsGirl

9th November 2008, 01:38 AM

Alright, just as a disclaimer, I haven't really started Kendo yet (though I have done another Martial arts that tends to be somwhat aggressive). However I am currently looking for a good dojo and there was one dojo that I specifically don't want to go to because they have "womens classes". That dojo is probably within a 10 minute walk of my place, (versus a twenty minute or hour bus/subway ride) but I really don't like the idea of having to only practice with other women. (or even being encouraged to do so).

I'm sure that there are two types of women: women who would like to only practice with other women, and those who want to practice just like the guys. However, I fail to see why a women would do kendo and prefer to practice with other women only, since the type of person/woman who would do a very agressive martial art probably also has the thought "if he can do it, so can I". I could be wrong, but thats what I think.

In my opinion, if you try to "cater to women" you are going to turn the type of woman who would like Kendo off from the practice. Although you might get some non-agressive women, I'd be willing to bet that it's the more aggressive/assertive women who will have a natural interest in Kendo.

No offense, but I wouldn't join your dojo if you treated me seperatly than the guys. Maybe you are doing that already without realizing it and thats why women leave?

I'm sure that there are some women who would prefer that though, who knows. I'm just not one of them. When I was doing martial arts a few years back, I told the guys, don't go easy on me. I think I learned much more that way and I also felt better about myself. Although technically women's bodies cannot build as much muscle as guys, a friend once told me that skill is more important than muscle, so skill can make up for it. Plus, there really are some pretty scrawny guys out there, and some pretty strong women. I don't think anybody goes easy on the scrawny guys so why treat the women differently? Of course, you could always ask because every person is different. But again, if a woman is doing martial arts, especially a very agressive one, I doubt that she's going to be the type of person that gets intimated easily (and if she does, shes will probably want to overcome that)

Thats just my two cents.

yoda-waza

9th November 2008, 03:55 AM

We've been looking for you. When can you start? Of the three women in our dojo, one left for Hawaii and the other two haven't been to practice in months.

Fass

9th November 2008, 05:25 AM

In my personal case, we have 2 or 3 constant women in our dojo of quite good level and they are able to participate in international championships and hold their own (in fact, they were 2nd place in this years south-american championship, which is a very good result if you consider they lost to the home team Brazil). I've seen that our dojo recieves them with open arms and treats them as equals and so do I.

The main reason I do this is because I think of it this way; if they got into this, they knew what they were getting into. It would be disrespectful to not give my 100% in training or in keiko just because they are women. In fact, most of them have been doing Kendo longer than me, so I humbly listen to them when they have something to say.

Keep in mind that I'm about 6'1 (1.85 metres) and I'm a lot taller than most of the women there. Even so, I don't give anything less than the best I can when I fight them. It's what other people have already said, they are Kendokas, not just women. Se I show my respect and my desire to learn with them by doing my best.

As for newcoming women, I usually try to be kind and to show them the little I know, but I don't act condescending or paternalistic, because I think they need to get used to being "trained", just like I did when I started.

So basically, I think women should just get the same treatment as men in training as a sign of respect to them as Kenshi. Perhaps the only thing to watch out for is hitting them in painful spots, like missing a Do strike too high (just like they want to watch out for an "under-the-belt" tsuki). But other than that, they shouldn't be treated as inferior or recieve "special treatment". Like someone else said, treat the individual, not the gender.

atgm

9th November 2008, 09:56 AM

Somewhere close to 0, I suspect. Female kendo players are a modern thing.

My sensei told me that women were allowed to do kendo from Showa 31, which would be... 1957, I think? Just a random tidbit.

Sasayaki

9th November 2008, 12:02 PM

Kenshi

9th November 2008, 01:26 PM

I am currently working on an article about female kenshi here in Japan for kenshi247.net (http://kenshi247.net) .. it might take a bit to complete, but if you havent already you might want to take a look at the site anyway.

If there are any female kenshi out there with a large chunk of kendo experience that would like to contribute then get in touch.:smoker:

Cheers.

Sasayaki

11th November 2008, 12:10 PM

babayaga

11th November 2008, 08:23 PM

MartialArtsGirl

11th November 2008, 11:19 PM

Gah! Can't we just let this thread, with its unfortunate title, die a quiet death?

The title implies that sticking with kendo in particular and martial arts in general is a trait exclusive to women -- which is far from the truth. Men wash out of martial arts as much as women. It's just more noticeable with women because there are fewer to start with.

Well, I guess I should put my money where my mouth is, so to speak.

-B

Nope!
death= bad!

I wonder, as for the person who started this thread, what has he gotten out of it? I'd like to hear something from him... maybe he should be the one to offically wrap it up...

oh and I forgot to add something to my "If guys can do it, so can I, so don't treat me any different from the guys" post. This is what I needed to add::jaguar:

yoda-waza

15th November 2008, 01:56 PM

OP here.

Babayaga, I started this discussion in response to an earlier thread named "Always the same with the men", a discussion that was plain silly but has thankfully expired and vanished from this site. My implication in this thread is not what you describe but actually the opposite: that the very rare female who starts kendo in our dojo invariably drops out after a period of time. I was tapping into the opinions of females here as to why that might be and also what it is that would attract a female to participate in the male-dominated world of kendo. I know the drop-out rate is typically very high regardless of gender but I thought I might some garner some insight and maybe improve our dojo's record in attracting and retaining female members. We had three practicing adult females for a while but they are all gone now: one moved to Hawaii where she still practices along with her husband and son, but the other two - well, I don't know what happened - maybe they became disheartened once the bogu went on.

I appreciate all the members who contributed their thoughts on this subject. MartialArtsGirl, if I appeared condescending when suggesting a modified practice routine for females, I apologize as that was not my intention. Having said that, I still think some of our grueling practices may appear intimidating to any observer, but especially females. Why am I concerned about it? Well, I guess I think the core values of kendo, which are universal and genderless, could become more widespread if we had participants from the half of the population that is not joining up in proportion to their numbers. I still don't have an answer on how to do that.

(P.S. If anyone thinks a butch/lesbian/tattoed rollergirl is better suited, I don't want to hear about it lest the KW warden breaks out his keyring again.)

babayaga

15th November 2008, 09:24 PM

OP here.

Babayaga, I started this discussion in response to an earlier thread named "Always the same with the men", a discussion that was plain silly but has thankfully expired and vanished from this site. My implication in this thread is not what you describe but actually the opposite: that the very rare female who starts kendo in our dojo invariably drops out after a period of time.

Hi Yoda, perhaps I should have emphasized the "title" part of my post, because the content of the thread is great. It's just that the title sounds horrible out of the context of the other thread, and it keeps popping up as the top topic in the summary view.

In other words, the representative post for the Women's Forum is often "Always the same with the women," which doesn't sound open and inclusive. Does that make sense? It's like the fact that for about six months on e-budo there was one forum which was headlined "why girls and guns don't mix."

I'm sorry if you got the message that I was criticizing the thread, because that is not the case. Language is powerful, in both intended and unintended ways. While the content is useful in this thread, the title suggests a complaint about women. In both the cases I've described, I believe that the language conveys negative, and in this case inaccurate messages about how women are viewed on these forums; one which may not reflect the reality.

I'll shut up now and keep my pedantism to myself. And start a new thread on something.

-B

yoda-waza

16th November 2008, 01:58 AM

Point taken. I can see your view but you have to understand the context of the situation at the time I posted. I chose this provocative title because it was a twist on the words of a popular concurrent title about men and I wanted to attract as many responses as it was getting. Had I tried another title at the time the thread may not have been as popular and drifted into a quiet death much earlier. As it is, new members discovering KW forums still seem drawn to respond. That's a good thing, isn't it?

MartialArtsGirl

17th November 2008, 12:17 PM

Yada-Waza, I wasn't insulted don't worry. It's just that I feel very strongly that you shouldn't alter the techniques for women. I personally wouldn't want to go to a dojo like that, and I'd purposefully stay far away from one like that.

Also, IMO, Kendo doesn't look that intimading except for the yelling/loud noise and the hitting. Which is something you probably can't do anything about.

Also maybe what you could do is to tell women that it will help them be stronger inside? Another thing that might help- and this is just, since I just started Kendo, I realize already that I really like having other women around after all. I mean, guys are awesome to hang out with, but if it's a male only club, a woman might start to wonder, "Am I ought of place here?" Also, how are the guys treating the girls?

One thing that I have been finding very helpful is to TALK about stuff. I find this forum to be awesome, because I understand it a lot better than I might have otherwise.

If you were to do something specfic for women, why not do something more along the lines of talking to them more about it all? Instead of changing the actual Kendo, maybe you could have a womens group after class so that women can talk about it afterwards, or practice afterwards or something? Or you could also do get togethers after class... (not just for women but everyone). Like go out to eat or something. something social.

I know it may sound silly, but women really do like to talk and socialize (as do some men I'm sure). It doesn't have to be a social club of course, but something to give women (and men) a sense of belonging of a sort.

I don't know. To me, doing a MA is not just about the MA, but also about the people you do it with. I tried a couple of other MA's (since I did my main one) and one of them- I loved the MA but the people were not very fun, I didnt enjoy hanging out with them very much after the class, so I thought to myself: "why am I doing this? I should look for a different dojo..."

and again, don't worry I don't feel insulted at all. I'm just trying to say it strongly: I'd personally never go to a dojo that altered Kendo (or any MA) specifically for women. It'd make me feel like I was somehow inferior to guys because I'd be encouraged to do something different or easier. Which is simply not the case. I mean if it's practical like your boobs are too big (as in one other thread?) then sure, thats alright. But if its somehow easier because I'm a female, or somehow more watered down in any way...how can that be a good thing?

Also, why not see if you could get in touch with the woman who moved to Hawaii? I bet she could tell you what you need to do, more than everyone else on this thread combined... really, you need to ask your students not us, because there are many many reasons why you could be losing students and no one can tell you the real answer that you need to know unless we go to your dojo.

Anyway, those are two more of my cents (a total of 4 cents now?)

Shinsengumi77

17th November 2008, 11:11 PM

[QUOTE=MartialArtsGirl;
IMO, Kendo doesn't look that intimading except for the yelling/loud noise and the hitting. Which is something you probably can't do anything about.
[/QUOTE]

That's like 90% of Kendo right there...:silly:

Raindrop

18th November 2008, 12:16 AM

Inner_Silence

18th November 2008, 03:26 AM

about what raindrop and MAgirl said, I think its a great idea, actually, in my dojo, girls have organized girls-only practices. even thou I used all my persuasive skills to find out what happens in those classes so far it hasnt worked.

MartialArtsGirl

18th November 2008, 04:57 AM

Hmm well last time I replied to this topic (page 1) I wasn't in bogu yet so I have a small thing to add.

For me it really helps to do keiko with other women. It really helps my Kendo, but also my motivation. At my dojo I have only 1 female sempai so we're really happy when we have female guest kendokas. it's not just a matter of learning "female tricks", you know stuff for when you're smaller and have less muscle power, but also so you have more people to look up to. I mean I look up to a lot of my male sempai as well and of course my sensei, but it's different if you see a lady kicking some kendoka-butt. ;-)

So I'm thinking, if (once) you have female kendokas in your dojo who you think need a motivational boost, maybe invite other dojos who have female players as well for a joined practice session every now and then.

In general I still think that there's nothing wrong with less women in Kendo, as gladly as I'd see more of them, but it's only logical given the nature of Kendo. Maybe you could try to promote it more towards women, have Open Days, or maybe even organize a special women-only beginners course (just a few lessons, after which they then also practice with guys). Just to get started, especially in the beginning, women tend to hold back, and be shy and self-conscious, especially when it comes to doing big/large footwork or loud kiai. Maybe a women-only beginners group might help? And you could advertise with flyers at evening schools or even chinese restaurants etc (that's where I found my first kendo flyer ^_^; )

Anyhoo, Yoda-Waza, good luck trying to lure women into your den... er dojo ;) Make sure to let us know as soon as you have bait! :D

Hey I think thats a good idea. I can see how, with something that is uber frustrating, it'd be nice to have other women who have been there, done that, and are awesome at it.

Somtimes, I personally DO get very embarressed in the Dojo when I mess up. But there isn't any way I'm gunna l let some guy show me up! heheh.

btw, despite me coming out and all, I really don't look like some kind of butch lesbian. (although I do have a somewhat girly tattoo on my arm. But its pretty and colorful) In short, I'm not butch and I guess I am sometimes girly... but that doesn't mean I cannot be aggressive!

Also, I wonder, how many women have believed that they are not "supposed" to be aggressive, even if they want to be? Especially in front of guys? Maybe a one time beginners class for women would help (as long as the Kendo itself isn't changed and as long as it's only the first class and as long as its optional).

Finally, I completly agree- whats wrong with not having a whole lot of females? But if your scaring them away somehow, maybe thats different I don't know...

Also did you look at the other thread "What kept you going?" or something like that? Many women have posted about WHY they stayed. That could be helpful too.

Good Luck

StrayCat

19th November 2008, 11:00 PM

The thought there have to be girls to keep girls is discouraging, so as continuing unpopular voice I'm going to throw in my experiences for you, Yoda-Waza.

I've always been in almost exclusively male only dojos. I felt like I was treated with extra curtesy and respect. I was strongly encouraged and felt like I had the support of the whole group.
Yes, as a feminist I, I object on principal to modifying practice and a sensei suggesting I go easy only made me work harder. However, I used to have a very weak threshold for tolerating shocks to my body and would spend the last parts of class sitting out trying to stop shaking. I switched dojos for unrelated reasons, people took notice and went lighter on me, I think that was a major factor in what kept me going. Don't modify a practice on principal because someone is female, but if the person just happens to be a lady and happens to also be weak, or happens to also have a low pain threshhold or is easily intimidated, by all means modify what you are doing to her special needs.

The bottom line is that you don't have to have girls to keep girls. You just need to make her feel wanted, welcome and part of the group. I think that is the key to success. Being different by gender, skin color,age or cultural background can either make you feel like a freak or a special essential element to the mix depending on how everyone handles it.

Alison2805

20th November 2008, 09:10 AM

The bottom line is that you don't have to have girls to keep girls.

Actually its a fact that if you have girls already in your dojo, more will sign up and stay.

Bekks

21st November 2008, 02:27 AM

...Maybe a one time beginners class for women would help (as long as the Kendo itself isn't changed and as long as it's only the first class and as long as its optional)....

Unfortunately this wouldn't work in most dojos. If my dojo did this when I started kendo I would have been the only one in the class, which would have been more embarrassing for me (who wants to practice alone??).

Having other females in the dojo is not the only thing that keeps beginning females there. I wont say that it doesn't help, but it's definitely not what keeps me there, nor did it keep the one other girl who started after me there (she quit after the first beginner class).

turboyoshi

21st November 2008, 03:37 AM

Unfortunately this wouldn't work in most dojos. If my dojo did this when I started kendo I would have been the only one in the class, which would have been more embarrassing for me (who wants to practice alone??).

Well, I assume she meant to recruit a bunch of beginning females and have them start together, just like what people would do to put together a women's self defense course. Not a bad idea really, if you're willing to make an effort at recruiting. Our dojo doesn't and they don't really need to. If I were a senior or sensei at a dojo though, and wanted to strengthen the female population, I would probably try something like this though. I doubt anything's going to change the fact that roughly 90% will drop out and you just need to keep getting exposure to attract new members.

StrayCat

21st November 2008, 07:35 AM

Actually its a fact that if you have girls already in your dojo, more will sign up and stay.

Please cite articles, experts or studies to back up this statement. Pardon my skepticism, but since Kendoka_Han claimed his views on homosexuality were also fact and it goes counter to my experiences, I would like hard evidence before acquiescing to your views.

MartialArtsGirl

21st November 2008, 11:34 AM

Well, I assume she meant to recruit a bunch of beginning females and have them start together, just like what people would do to put together a women's self defense course. Not a bad idea really, if you're willing to make an effort at recruiting. Our dojo doesn't and they don't really need to. If I were a senior or sensei at a dojo though, and wanted to strengthen the female population, I would probably try something like this though. I doubt anything's going to change the fact that roughly 90% will drop out and you just need to keep getting exposure to attract new members.

Actually, probably having a beginners class for women or not isn't going to really matter.

I was just throwing out ideas. (that was me who posted the quoted comment that was just quoted by the person who got commented on?:eek:)

Ok seriously, your hitting people over the head with a stick. Many women are just not going to be into that. Some are, some arn't. If there's a higher percentage of men showing up, and if the drop out rates are a bit equal, well, then naturally there will be few to no women in the dojo.

I'm feeling super lazy today. Maybe I should just shut-up and go practice... I wish I knew if I was practicing things right or not! heh

Bekks

22nd November 2008, 03:25 PM

Well, I assume she meant to recruit a bunch of beginning females and have them start together, just like what people would do to put together a women's self defense course. Not a bad idea really, if you're willing to make an effort at recruiting. Our dojo doesn't and they don't really need to. If I were a senior or sensei at a dojo though, and wanted to strengthen the female population, I would probably try something like this though. I doubt anything's going to change the fact that roughly 90% will drop out and you just need to keep getting exposure to attract new members.

That's possibly what she meant, but not what she said. I don't honestly see the benefits of purposefully separating out female beginners from the guys. Now if it just so happened that a group of girls all started at the same time, chances are more of them will stay if they all agree ( or even just mention in passing) that they are going to keep with it. Eventually they will either stick with it or quit and the girls that are really dedicated to practicing will stay regardless of an established female population ( at their level or higher). Why do you think I'm still around? :laugh:

ETA: I am by no means saying that getting a group of friends (all the same gender or not) would not make the dojo a more inviting environment to practice...it probably would...just like making friends with people that are already there makes it a more comfortable place.

Alison2805

22nd November 2008, 04:51 PM

Please cite articles, experts or studies to back up this statement. Pardon my skepticism, but since Kendoka_Han claimed his views on homosexuality were also fact and it goes counter to my experiences, I would like hard evidence before acquiescing to your views.

The fact that I do kendo and you dont is a start...

Our dojo has seen an increase in girls signing up and staying once there were a couple of girls already established in the club. It has been mentioned many times in this forum that once a club has girls it is easier to get more to stay on. Try the search function.

I doesnt take a genius to see that Kendoka Hans opinions were an offensive load of rubbish.

StrayCat

22nd November 2008, 11:48 PM

[QUOTE=Alison2805;364695]The fact that I do kendo and you dont is a start...

I have been playing Kendo for more than half a decade. I have practiced in three countries and visited more than two dozen dojos. There happen to be a number of people on this very forum who could verify those facts for you. I will provide references to back up my statements upon request. I may be flippant, but I do not lie. Just because I like to keep discussions intellectual and theoretical does not mean that I do not do Kendo.

Your personal experiences DO NOT trump my personal experiences. Both our histories are equally valid, which makes our points equally valid. You are in a dojo that attracts girls, you believe, because you are there, therefore you believe that there need to be girls to get more girls.

I practice in primarily male dojos. My presence in no way attracts more females and I have seen plenty of places where there is a lone one or two women. Therefore I believe that you do not need to have females to attract females in a dojo. Your antagonistic, narrow minded views saddens me and the intolerance of someone who is different reminds me exactly of KendoHan. I am happy that all women and all kendoka are not like you. Please remember that this forum represents only a small number of swordswomen and should not be used to make gross generalizations about kendoka. One dissenting view may represent a large faction in real life. Furthermore a faceless encounter can warp the representation of a person. If we cross swords one day, I hope that we can mutually respect each other and be friends.

mingshi

23rd November 2008, 01:57 AM

I practice in primarily male dojos. My presence in no way attracts more females and I have seen plenty of places where there is a lone one or two women...

I suppose it also depends on if the female is a lady or a bitch...

yoda-waza

23rd November 2008, 02:41 AM

I'm pleased this thread still attracts attention as I glean every post for any helpful insight, but I'm hoping this discussion is not turning into a cat fight.

Whether a female joins independently or with others, it's all good to us. Really each individual's outlook is what is important. The challenge for our dojo, as in every dojo, is retention, whether male or female and given the much smaller beginning numbers of the latter it's not surprising our success rate is very low. If we are all capable of a clear dedicated mind then I think success ultimately comes down to the sincerity of each persons determination to perceive and pursue personal worth even through a rigorous path of training. In short, toughing it out has no gender.

Raindrop

23rd November 2008, 02:59 AM

I also hope this doensn't turn into unpleasentries, since I'm the one who brought up the whole have-women-to-get-more-women thing. :emb:

I spoke purely from experience there, about myself, and how women kendoka in my environment inspire me differently than the guys do. Also I think not every woman who could be a potential kendo-lifer has the kind of character to thrive easily in a male-only environment. For some women it's hard, at least in the beginning. However I agree that once you get to know Kendo better it doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter. I'm only talking about those first few months, where you start falling in love with Kendo (or not - that's when 90% quit), and for me it helped that I had a female sempai.

In short, toughing it out has no gender.

Very well said. One of the many reasons why I love Kendo!

Inner_Silence

23rd November 2008, 05:03 AM

I have been playing Kendo for more than half a decade. I have ... I had,
me, me myself and I. yadda yadda

you are still a KWF noob. I recommend that you accept a mistake instead of annoy...

besides, lots of people, me includded, accepts the "girls bringing girls" hypotesis,Ive seen it personally and I bet many of us have. this doesnt mean that the hypotesis is true, it means that the same thinking logic that you use can be applied to yourself, the fact that your reality is different, doesent mean that something is wright or wrong, actually, the fact that you think someway or another doesnt change a thing. you just can post a personal view and we read it, but thats about it.

Alison2805

23rd November 2008, 07:30 AM

[quote=Alison2805;364695]
I have been playing Kendo for more than half a decade. I have practiced in three countries and visited more than two dozen dojos. There happen to be a number of people on this very forum who could verify those facts for you. I will provide references to back up my statements upon request. I may be flippant, but I do not lie. Just because I like to keep discussions intellectual and theoretical does not mean that I do not do Kendo.

Your personal experiences DO NOT trump my personal experiences. Both our histories are equally valid, which makes our points equally valid. You are in a dojo that attracts girls, you believe, because you are there, therefore you believe that there need to be girls to get more girls.

I practice in primarily male dojos. My presence in no way attracts more females and I have seen plenty of places where there is a lone one or two women. Therefore I believe that you do not need to have females to attract females in a dojo. Your antagonistic, narrow minded views saddens me and the intolerance of someone who is different reminds me exactly of KendoHan. I am happy that all women and all kendoka are not like you. Please remember that this forum represents only a small number of swordswomen and should not be used to make gross generalizations about kendoka. One dissenting view may represent a large faction in real life. Furthermore a faceless encounter can warp the representation of a person. If we cross swords one day, I hope that we can mutually respect each other and be friends.

You asked me earlier in another thread if "someone wearing a gi and doing kenjutsu with a bamboo blade" makes someone a kendoka. In another thread you said you were "interested in kendo" as oposed to actually doing kendo. Plus there is the fact that you admitted to coming here for the purpose of creating argument... I really do doubt if you do kendo AT ALL.. you certainly come across as a troll.

Saying females attract more females is an "antagonistic narrow minded view" is.. well, wierd. When it comes to attracting more women, it seems you need MORE THAN ONE in the dojo to get that going. If you really do kendo as you say, and you havent much experience in a dojo that has many women, you havent seen how those women got into the group and why they stayed, so I dont see how you can dismiss the opinions of so many people in here who perhaps have seen this work.

StrayCat

23rd November 2008, 07:42 AM

you are still a KWF noob. I recommend that you accept a mistake instead of annoy...

besides, lots of people, me includded, accepts the "girls bringing girls" hypotesis,Ive seen it personally and I bet many of us have. this doesnt mean that the hypotesis is true, it means that the same thinking logic that you use can be applied to yourself, the fact that your reality is different, doesent mean that something is wright or wrong, actually, the fact that you think someway or another doesnt change a thing. you just can post a personal view and we read it, but thats about it.

Right you are! I agree with you 100%. I am a noob to KWF and I'd say to Kendo too. I mean there are a lot people who have played for over 50 years, right?:smiley: The point you are making is what I was also trying to convey. All views are equally valid.

However, when someone out right says that I am wrong and not only can't substantiate the claim, but reverts to personal insults, I feel that it is my moral duty to point out that everyone's personal opinion is equally important. I was lead to believe that politeness and etiquette is one of the founding principals of Kendo. If we cannot treat each other with respect, patience and curtesy, are any of us really kendoka? Would telling a fellow student that they are not a Kendo player, because you do not agree with that person's views be tolerated in a dojo? I would hope that we could treat everyone with the compassion to at least hear out their reasoning and thought process before delivering slights. In fact, I do not think it is appropriate to deliver personaly degrading comments at all, but, hey, I'm just a noob, if snide remarks is an innate part of KWF culture, I'll try to get with the program. :laugh:

StrayCat

23rd November 2008, 07:58 AM

[quote=StrayCat;364721]

You asked me earlier in another thread if "someone wearing a gi and doing kenjutsu with a bamboo blade" makes someone a kendoka. In another thread you said you were "interested in kendo" as oposed to actually doing kendo. Plus there is the fact that you admitted to coming here for the purpose of creating argument... I really do doubt if you do kendo AT ALL.. you certainly come across as a troll.

Saying females attract more females is an "antagonistic narrow minded view" is.. well, wierd. When it comes to attracting more women, it seems you need MORE THAN ONE in the dojo to get that going. If you really do kendo as you say, and you havent much experience in a dojo that has many women, you havent seen how those women got into the group and why they stayed, so I dont see how you can dismiss the opinions of so many people in here who perhaps have seen this work.

Alison! I give up! You win! No more posting! No more reading! Don't even bothering answering, unless it's to celebrate 'good riddence to bad rubbish', because I won't read it. I do like argument, I find it intellectually stimulating. It's like jigeiko without the swords. Yes, I wanted to create debate. I wanted to discuss different views, values, systems, explore theoretical situations and all the stuff that you can't do in class. I thought that's what a forum was FOR, to debate what you can't get from class. Honestly, I don't even get why people ask 90% of the stuff they do anyway. Don't people have sensei they can ask? senpai? nakama? Why ask strangers who you know nothing about? Sensei can teach you technique, where to buy your gear, how to act in class, who to handle situations, tell you if lesbians play Kendo or what kind of kote are best to buy. It's a mystery to me.

Most importantly:

Females attract more females is NOT, I repeat, NOT NOT NOT NOT an "antagonistic narrow minded view." It is NOT. However, telling someone that you think they don't play Kendo because you don't like their opinons, or saying that my views don't count because I am different DOES count as antagonistc and narrow minded.

Yes, I am interested in Kendo, becaue I PLAY Kendo. Yes, I asked if you considered wearing a gi and hakama and using a bamboo blade enough to consider yourself a kendoka. Personally, I don't. Because Kendo is Budo and Budo has to embody the Japanese martial way and if there is no culture, no etiquette, no essence of the belief system behind Kendo, then I don't think it really is kendo. It's just fencing with a Japanese blade. I asked questions, not because I wanted to know what to think. I know what I think. I wanted to know what YOU think. Whatever EVERYONE thinks and when we disagree I wanted to see where we could go with it, but all it ever does is irrate people. What shocks me is that a martial art that starts with reishiki and ends with reishiki, people are incredibly rude.

Hinaru

23rd November 2008, 01:34 PM

I think success ultimately comes down to the sincerity of each persons determination to perceive and pursue personal worth even through a rigorous path of training. In short, toughing it out has no gender.

People probably have various different reasons for sticking with Kendo, and some may not even have a definitive answer for why they want to do it. I suppose that's something you discover by yourself. A sensei does what he/she is there to do, but as you so rightly say, it is up to the individual as to whether or not they are determined and persevering in their pursuits in Kendo. Thus, coping with the challenges you mentioned in your first post are all a part of this "toughing it out", and as a girl who just stepped into a dojo for the first time not so long ago, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Kenzan

23rd November 2008, 01:38 PM

I suppose it also depends on if the female is a lady or a bitch...

~Most elegantly phrased, M'lady.

:laugh:

Kenzan

23rd November 2008, 01:42 PM

Right you are! ...........

Yoush, yoush!
Yoush!
Yoooouussshhhhhhhhh.....

Yoooooooooooooooooosh...

Yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh.

If I've learned anything, it's that nothing on this forum is worth getting angry about.

:)

Raindrop

23rd November 2008, 08:06 PM

Alison! I give up! You win! No more posting! No more reading! Don't even bothering answering, unless it's to celebrate 'good riddence to bad rubbish', because I won't read it. I do like argument, I find it intellectually stimulating. It's like jigeiko without the swords. Yes, I wanted to create debate. I wanted to discuss different views, values, systems, explore theoretical situations and all the stuff that you can't do in class. I thought that's what a forum was FOR, to debate what you can't get from class. Honestly, I don't even get why people ask 90% of the stuff they do anyway. Don't people have sensei they can ask? senpai? nakama? Why ask strangers who you know nothing about? Sensei can teach you technique, where to buy your gear, how to act in class, who to handle situations, tell you if lesbians play Kendo or what kind of kote are best to buy. It's a mystery to me.

Well about asking questions. For me personally, Kendo is on my mind 24/7. That includes also during work and when there is something I have a question about and it's still 3 more days till I next see my sensei I'd much rather ask here cause I'm impatient like that. Granted some of the questions people ask are.. well to say the least, strange, however this is a forum on the internet, there simply are different rules here than in a dojo. Projecting reishiki onto every single aspect of your life is not something every single person does. This is a matter of interpretation of what budo means for you personally and as you said, everyone is entitled their own views. My personal view is that you need to be reasonable and polite also in every day life, but that's just for myself, if someone else is a bit more snappy or sarcastic on a forum, I won't think anything less of them as a Kendoka in the dojo.

Most importantly:

Females attract more females is NOT, I repeat, NOT NOT NOT NOT an "antagonistic narrow minded view." It is NOT. However, telling someone that you think they don't play Kendo because you don't like their opinons, or saying that my views don't count because I am different DOES count as antagonistc and narrow minded.

Yes, I am interested in Kendo, becaue I PLAY Kendo. Yes, I asked if you considered wearing a gi and hakama and using a bamboo blade enough to consider yourself a kendoka. Personally, I don't. Because Kendo is Budo and Budo has to embody the Japanese martial way and if there is no culture, no etiquette, no essence of the belief system behind Kendo, then I don't think it really is kendo. It's just fencing with a Japanese blade. I asked questions, not because I wanted to know what to think. I know what I think. I wanted to know what YOU think. Whatever EVERYONE thinks and when we disagree I wanted to see where we could go with it, but all it ever does is irrate people. What shocks me is that a martial art that starts with reishiki and ends with reishiki, people are incredibly rude.

I see what you're saying and to some degree I agree, but I also think that when you get a kind of heated reply you have a choice whether to let it slide and continue with the discussion at hand or to go in full confronation mode and feed the hostile tone of the debate.

You are correct, everyone is entitled to their own view and discussing these views backed with arguments is the core of a good debate. Some of us have had the personal experience that having some women already present in a dojo does play a part in encouraging other women to stay. Your personal experience is that you didn't need other women in order to be encouraged to stay. The one does not invalidate the other because it is based on each person and how they personally are.

There really is no reason to get so worked up about this. When you feel personally attacked by someone maybe lashing out back at them isn't the most diplomatic (reishiki) way to go. think of it as a kendo match against a "pusher" or "woodchopper". The kind of person who just bullies you and does no real Kendo in a shiai, to get you pissed-off so you make mistakes. You can sink to their level and let your anger take over, push them back or do Hansoku of your own, likely losing the match. Or you can just keep doing your good clean kendo and then whatever your opponent tries is futile.

Maybe it's cause I don't like it when people fight over misunderstandings or miswordings but I'm not happy when debates go personal like that. The internet is easy to start such fights because of the lack of intonations and facial expressions in posts. I know it's not my place to moderate and I'm far from doing that, I just wanted to express how I felt about this and maybe mediate between two people who obviously love Kendo very much. Gomenasai if I step on people's toes with this, it is not my intention and just want everyone to get along! :emb:

*hands out some nice hot steaming cups of green tea to everyone*

:3

foundinsea

5th December 2008, 01:34 PM

I'm male and I do kendo.

However, I and the other senior in our dojo have pondered the "how to get better female retention" question. And, our conclusion was that it really does take women to attract and help retain women.

Practicing with men is one thing, I'd say a completely separate issue to retention. Most men in the dojo are not particularly mean with the women we do have and the senior women we have do quite well against men (we also split new bogu from seniors for a short time so I think that helps). Personally the way I see it is that once you're in bogu you're not a man or woman...you're kendoka and I will treat you as such; I will not lay off on how hard I hit or reduce power in my fumikomi (except with kids). The women that I have had shiai with (not in our dojo, but a few beating me quite nicely from other ones) have taken it. I find women more intelligent when it comes to their approach to kendo if not for any other reason than knowing their physical limitations versus a man who may be much stronger (I say "may be" because not all men are - just cause he's big doesn't mean he's strong). But this is besides the point as this thread is about retention.

We only have 2 women in bogu (not counting the 3 women sensei we have - that don't show up regularly - well one does but her husband is also a sensei so sometimes she just watches their kids and teaches them). But we do have a bunch of newbies. I'm not expecting more than half of them new girls to stay but I see potential in a few of them. However, for the ones that come regularly what I do notice is that they have a preference to talk about things with the senior women, who in turn prefer to discuss things with the women sensei. I believe this helps not only encourage, but as many have already posted, bring a sense of sisterhood to their group...sort of a group within a group. There are just some ideas that men won't understand and only other women can really give advice on (as on this thread and forum) so having other women in the dojo is probably the largest contributor to retention. Although in our dojo's case, I think have a male 7-dan sensei that's as tall as they are and can "see" things from the perspective (as in height) helps...yes, our women kendoka are on the shorter side of vertical.

Tort-Speed

7th March 2010, 06:48 PM

Since this thread was started by Yoda-Waza who then said (Feb. 2008) said they had 2 females who started Kendo last summer, just wondering
if they - or other females at other dojos - have continued? At mine, 14 years ago there were 11 adult women, excluding the 3~4 university Kendo teamers who come and go. Today, 9 continue (one moved far away, t'other after passing rokudan and our original dojo being rebuilt, attends a dojo near her home). But ours is a ji-keiko practice, with no drills or training to make you fall on the floor...unless you onegaishimas a "terminator" type,
but that's our choice to make.

amandzing

8th March 2010, 01:47 PM

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
I don't. I think women who are looking for a martial art have a reasonable idea that physical contact is expected in a martial art, whichever one you choose to study.

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
Cameraderie, friendship, the putting aside of the day and focussing on betterment of the self, (it's 2 hours of intense me-time)...many things...taking part in a sport that has its roots in ancient times...all of these and more.

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
I can think of none. a general wish would be for kendoka to aim properly when doing do-cuts and hit armour instead of tattooing my ribs, but i think that applies to both sexes...

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
i don't think so. our sensei treats everyone the same and expects everyone to put in as much as he does, which is a lot. both sexes do the same drills and waza, and no quarter is given or asked.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo? i love kendo.

in an aside, and i have no official statistics to back this up, but the jump into bogu might be an issue. it was a huge shock to me, and i had to swallow my pride and step back a lot. it's taken me a while, but i'm getting more used to it, especially as i have been upping my fitness level outside the class. fitness aside, the learning curve when you first go into bogu is immense, and also, those first cuts that go astray can be a shock to someone who isn't used to it. again no stats, but i think a lot of people drop out when they go into bogu for the first time because it's so intense. perhaps a bridging class? or suck it up like people having been doing for years? maybe it's a filtration method, because at the end of the day, you probably only want the people there who really want to be there, who will raise the profile of kendo and not drag it down...

yoda-waza

8th March 2010, 03:23 PM

Here's my update, since Tort-Speed asked. The two females I referred to back in February 2008 quit within a few weeks of practicing in bogu. The bogu-shock issue amandzing touched upon did them in. One could no longer stand being hit on the head and wrist, the other had trouble breathing (asthma was an issue). Since then we have had three other adult females join. Female #1 is a 2-Dan kenshi and 4-Dan in iaido who had taken an extended motherhood break but has returned now that her young sons are old enough to start kendo (that's one way to grow membership!). Female #2 has 15 years of karate background and has been practicing almost a year now (several months in bogu) alongside her husband who is a shotokan karate instructor. Female #3 is a newbie who seems sincere and comes to every practice so far - it is too early to speculate what will happen at bogu time, though.

I have been trying a kind of "bridging class" method with all new adults who stuck it out to bogu-time from among a group who began together at our second dojo location that we opened last spring for beginners. I encourage them to also practice with the advanced group at our original dojo location. The three so far that did the advanced practices realize how much they have to learn. No one has quit from among those in bogu. I worry about female #2 who has been alarmed by her wrist bruising, even though she has bruised her knuckles in karate, and about female #3 who, though physically fit and strong, has a gentle demeanor and has commented on her anxiety at striking people's heads.

Thank you all for your responses.

Tort-Speed

8th March 2010, 11:37 PM

A karate background could help a female in bogu take the hits (albeit Shotokan not being full-contact). As for a bruised wrist, Nutmeg oil (mine was from Malaysia) works overnight to turn dark purple to pink. OT, but the stuff was used to reduce bruising when removing the jade bracelet placed on an infant, thought to protect him/her from injury. Since the "lucky" jade is fitted over a newborn's tiny hand, it gets too tight after a while and needs removing: ouch, thus the oil. If F #2 can find some, it's miraculous for Kendo and all bruises (+ possibly do more defense, countering an incoming men strike with kaishi doh rather than initiate men and get kote-whacked?, just a non-instructor's HO).

Moonrise

11th March 2010, 02:10 PM

I know it's a bit of taboo for males to post in this forum, but I was poking about the fora in curiosity about what was here, and I actually have something to say, here. I've spent several years doing armored combat with the Society for Creative Anachronism (http://www.sca.org), in which time I've had a few female friends who also participated in armored combat. One of them put me on to a book called "The Armored Rose," which is specifically aimed at females looking to get in to armored combat in the SCA.

In it, the author talks about the psychological problems. If you're not familiar, SCA armored combat involves serious armor, and we hit each other full-strength with rattan staves. I've walked off the field with some pretty serious bruises... so even though I'm a kendo noob, I'm not expecting to fall into the "bogu abyss." Aaaaaaanyway, one of the things that the author talks about is that, in the SCA, many women have a problem with actually hitting someone, because they've been raised all their lives to believe that good girls don't hit.

It's fascinating reading, and those of you who are teachers with female students might consider picking up a copy, even though it's not kendo-specific. The author is a former Air Force police officer, and her thoughts on women and combat have wider application than just SCA armored combat.

IndigoGirl

13th March 2010, 04:37 AM

One of them put me on to a book called "The Armored Rose," which is specifically...

Oh please, not that crap again!
From my beginners course a much higher percentage of guys quit. Some of them even bought a bogu set but were afraid to wear it even once.
Yet nobody writes some pamphlet about those guys, assuming they have a psychological problem, are afraid of getting hit or worry about bruises.

So please stop thinking that women need to be namby pampied into bogu. Those who really like kendo will have no problem with bogu training, just as the guys.

Moonrise

13th March 2010, 07:17 AM

Yet nobody writes some pamphlet about those guys, assuming they have a psychological problem, are afraid of getting hit or worry about bruises.

Perhaps problems is an overly strong word, and I apologize if I've offended. In fact, there are vast tracts written about men and sports, and about men and combat. It is my experience that men and women have both physical and psychological differences -- which is one of the reasons that men are drawn to women. These differences do not make one gender or the other "better," and it was not my intent to imply otherwise. I simply felt that the book in question might offer some insight to those who were looking for insight as to what the challenges faced by women in combat sports might be.

Those who really like kendo will have no problem with bogu training, just as the guys.

I agree, and end with that agreement.

b8amack

13th March 2010, 11:42 AM

To tangent, sca guys (or girls, I would suppose, having no direct experience of that) are just as likely to quit as anyone, if not moreso, from what I've seen in both fencing and kendo.

lcox

31st March 2010, 12:34 AM

Many of these things have been said already, but for my 2 cents:

In general:
It's natural that there are fewer women in kendo than men, but we should at least aim for 30% or so, which you can see in other martial arts and rough sports. It might just come down to publicizing the sport enough. If 3 women for every 7 men are interested in kendo, but 90% of all of them leave, it makes sense you have few to no women if you only draw in 10-20 new people each year. Publicize more broadly in general, and the numbers should improve. But that said, some basics can be in place:

1. I enjoyed starting out when there was a female role model (4-dan) in the club, and once she left, I look up to our smallest sensei - much of the strategy for women is really just strategy for short, small people. If you have no women in the club as role models, having one of your high ranked, but small men, reach out to new women may help.
2. As for all people, women will be more likely to stick with an activity if there are good relationships to nurture. Our club has yearly parties, periodically goes out after practice,and is generally friendly. I think this atmosphere helped keep me with the sport.

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
For those interested in the sport, no. I enjoy the aggression and competition of kendo, however, I don't enjoy pain!
1. You should let recommend getting men and kote pads along with bogu, and
2. quickly correct beginners who tend to hack painfully (and incorrectly) with the shinai

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
Self-improvement, competition, sword fighting is generally cool, respectful atmosphere (e.g. you appreciate the opponent who beats you for showing you your weaknesses).

• Do you think that some drills should be modified or not?
Modified drills would do a disservice to women, at least where co-ed tournaments are held. However, there may be additional drills for everyone that could particularly benefit women:
1. taiatari and hiki waza practice helped me learn more aggressive strategies, and
2. particular attention to kote practice since women often fight taller opponents.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
Probably would help keep more people in general - let people know when they do something well. People like doing what they're good at.

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
1. Good relationships (husband and friends)
2. Motivation from competition (encourage new members to go to tournaments and promotions even before they're ready to participate to get motivated to succeed)

MithLuin

31st May 2010, 03:18 AM

Of course men and women are different. And the differences aren't simply a result of social conditioning. Physiological, hormonal, whatever - men and women are built differently and think differently. I think we all recognize that.

Equally as obviously, as soon as I try to make generalizations about what those 'fundamental' differences are, we'll all think of individuals who don't fit the blatant stereotypes. So I'm not going to try ;). Best to remember that those types of traits are often on a sliding scale, and different people (male and female) will fall in different places. It's fair to generalize that the average woman is shorter than the average man, but obviously there are tall women and short men. Lots of variety in life, and individuals don't always fit the 'rule'. :).

In my personal case, we have 2 or 3 constant women in our dojo of quite good level and they are able to participate in international championships and hold their own (in fact, they were 2nd place in this years south-american championship, which is a very good result if you consider they lost to the home team Brazil). I've seen that our dojo receives them with open arms and treats them as equals and so do I.

I tested at the Ken Zen Dojo at New York this sunday. I was watching the sho-dan test carefully because I was testing for the same rank. Out of everyone I watched, the person who impressed me the most was number 103.

103 was a woman.

I would like to share a story my chemistry professor shared with me during my freshman year of college. He'd been teaching the introductory class for chemistry/chemical engineering majors for 30+ years, so he'd seen a lot of students go through the school (which was recognized as top notch in those fields). When he began teaching, all students were male. This was the mid to late 60s, in America. Gradually, over time, women joined the class, and in time, the numbers evened out.

Each year, he held a competition for the honors sections, and once there were both guys and girls in the group, he made it 'male vs female' just because.

The women always won, in the beginning. Even when there were even numbers of guys and girls in the class (roughly), the girls still won. He was thrilled when a year finally came when the guys beat the girls. Why?

In the early days, only really dedicated women who were serious about chemistry would even think of majoring in it. So, naturally, they were a cut above the guys, really exceptional students, and that's why they were there. When the year came when the girls lost, it told him that no longer did the girls have to be better than the boys to consider chemistry. Finally, chemistry was for everyone. Sure, he still had exceptional female students (as well as males), but the double standard seemed to have eroded away.

As a woman sitting in his freshman class, knowing there were female professors in the chemistry department now, it gave me a historical perspective I would not otherwise have had. I never would have seen the girls winning as evidence of a disparity, something discouraging 'average' women from even attempting the major.

I realize that sticking with kendo isn't the same thing as sticking with a degree program at university. I have no idea how to apply that story to the retention of women in dojos. But I just wanted to point out that changes like this take time, so it might take a few generations (not years) for western women to wind up better represented in kendo. That doesn't mean anyone is doing anything wrong, necessarily.

Solinde

16th June 2010, 12:10 AM

Lots of good things have already been said. To really know what a specific dojo needs to do to get more girls to stay/join I think you will have to look at that specific dojo. What specific problems does that dojo have? Some girls will not be comfortable sharing showers for example, while others would rather share showers than be cut off from the rest of the group. What kind of girls does this dojo attract (and then loose)? If most are mothers of young children, than that might be what's keeping them from practice. If most are young girls who end up ditching kendo for another sport, then there is probably something that can be done.

Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that I don't care much for the "if you like kendo, bogu training is not a problem" and "if bogu training is too much for you then you're not cut out for kendo" statements in this thread. This has nothing to do with gender for one, but mostly I just disagree. I loved kendo as a beginner but was scared off by bogu practice. It was really difficult, and took a long time to get over. Now I enjoy jigeiko, but if I didn't have a lot of other ties to the dojo (like iaido, and a kendoka for boyfriend) I would probably have been one of the early dropouts.

And also...I may get criticized for this, but still. Generally women tend to underestimate their abilites and men to overestimate their abilities. Of course this will not be true in all cultures or for all individuals, but it might be something worth considering.

Wow, that's quite long for the very short answer I was planning. ;)

yoda-waza

17th June 2010, 01:54 PM

OP here with another update. So we went from 2 to 0 adult female members a couple of years back but we are now up to 5, one of whom is a returning former member who is 2-Dan kendo and 4-Dan iado. Of the other four, one is 6-kyu in bogu struggling with the "I don't think I'm good enough for this" syndrome. She still practices, though less often than before bogu. The remaining three are relatively new but I'm hoping they hang in there to join the other two in bogu. Perhaps a certain number of females is what it takes to spark esprit de corps for mutual support. I thank you for all your opinions and experiences. If kendo is really just a personal journey and you persevere, regardless of your gender, then you are "good enough" for the journey.

MartialArtsGirl

22nd September 2010, 12:50 PM

Aaaaaaanyway, one of the things that the author talks about is that, in the SCA, many women have a problem with actually hitting someone, because they've been raised all their lives to believe that good girls don't hit.

I think this is true. Women are told that they are too masculine if they gain any muscle, and they are too masculine if they act too aggressive. Nobody wants to be too masculine!

Oh one BIG thing? Honestly, outside of very certain specific circles of people, even in the martial arts world, nobody really knows about kendo. I just met someone from Korea who did kendo which is the only reason I tried it. Every other (non-Asian) person I know knows someone who is Asian. (i.e. is married to or dated a Japanese person, etc). Maybe less women marry Asian men! lol

OP here with another update. So we went from 2 to 0 adult female members a couple of years back but we are now up to 5, one of whom is a returning former member who is 2-Dan kendo and 4-Dan iado. Of the other four, one is 6-kyu in bogu struggling with the "I don't think I'm good enough for this" syndrome. She still practices, though less often than before bogu. The remaining three are relatively new but I'm hoping they hang in there to join the other two in bogu. Perhaps a certain number of females is what it takes to spark esprit de corps for mutual support. I thank you for all your opinions and experiences. If kendo is really just a personal journey and you persevere, regardless of your gender, then you are "good enough" for the journey.

There are a lot of girls in my dojo, but I don't think that has much to do with why I am sticking with it (so far!) anyway. Actually girls often drive me nuts (in general) and I often find it easier to make friends with guys. But maybe it is making a subtle difference who knows.

Its been what, a year or so now since I started? Almost two? Kendo is very very difficult and I am getting very very very frustrated, but I don't like giving up on hard things. I think I have the "I don't think I'm good enough at this" syndrome too. I wonder if girls are more susceptible to that? Actually I really don't think I am that great, BUT, maybe it doesn't matter.

Anyway I wonder if Hyun Sensei has commented in this thread yet? He's one of the Sensei's at my dojo and from what I hear, my dojo does have an awful lot of girls compared to how it could be. I bet he could add to this thread if he hasn't already.

UnimportantHero

22nd September 2010, 12:56 PM

I think this is true. Women are told that they are too masculine if they gain any muscle, and they are too masculine if they act too aggressive. Nobody wants to be too masculine!

Agreed.

Some want to be just masculine enough!

:bandit:

:D

Black Tea

16th February 2011, 07:57 AM

Ah, my first post on Kendo World! The input of a rather new female in Kendo with zero intention of dropping it. I have had bogu for a month now and been working with a male sized shinai.

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?

I honestly can't say, since I know so few females. As a standard, though, I think often of my size in comparison to others in our dojo. I am not below average size for a womaneither, rising at about 5'8", but about 95% of the members in our dojo are taller (6'+) and larger. I think my thoughts on size usually occur in ji and kakari geiko namely because I have been "run over" before (and even recently, I have been knocked to the ground in taia [spelling?] tare, woo) This I think is more of a matter of me being newer and not very skilled verses most people in the class. So to combat this? Like every other hard thing, I know building my confidence is the main thing. I have had very supportive senpai, and the reassurance that if they are taking it easy on me, they are taking it easy on me because I am new (and are helping me learn), and not because I am a girl.

Not a single thought has occurred to me that I can't do this because I am a woman, and that I can not compare to another man in the dojo. If this thought has occurred to a new woman in a dojo, I can't help but think they haven't been exposed to enough Japanese Women's kendo (that's what got me inspired a bit), supportive senpai, or perhaps even just inspiring other women. I am the only girl in my Aikido dojo as well, and I know that I can't combat my strength with any other guy in the dojo, so I have the luxury (if you call it that) of working on my technique and timing in order to overcome strength and thus improve faster this way. (:

• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?

I take two other budo arts (Iaido and Aikido) and I suppose the reasoning behind why I do all of them is rather close. I do them to become stronger, mentally and physically. I specifically like the idea of carving myself into a better and more focused person. I find that principles and learning methods I have taken from these arts I have been able to apply to other parts of my life very easily. I find turmoil of my daily activities of problems that weigh me down seem to drop away when I am at Kendo, and I walk away from practice with perhaps a clearer head. After a really hard ji keiko, I find that the little things that I let boggle my mind down are rinsed away, just as my losses and wins in ji keiko are accepted but not dwelled upon.

• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?

I find that women and men are striving for the same goals in kendo, ha, so why change the drills? I find my upper body strength needs constant work, so I say - bring on more drills.

• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?

I can't say much that I didn't all ready say in the first answer. Motivation comes from within, but if a girl is new to Kendo and to a dojo, she may not know what kind of women kendoka are out there, or that even though Kendo is a male dominated art, isn't impossible for them. A strive to improve muscular strength is important, and perhaps that is a goal more oriented to men then women, but I have been lucky enough to work out with my fellow dojo kendoka and know what muscle groups to work and improve on, just as every other guy in the dojo works on. Don't leave the women out just because. Include them, perhaps build that confidence, just as every new person needs. (:

• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?

The fact that I know if I skip a practice, it will take like two weeks of practice for me to make up that one. I have awesome senpai that I know would kick my butt about not coming and know that I want to test in October, and of course, that self improvement thing. (:

Hope that helps!

UnimportantHero

17th February 2011, 03:19 PM

Oh man. I wish that my first post on Kendo World had been that mature.

Welcome!

Dustycij36

17th February 2011, 06:47 PM

We have three different classes two focused at persons who are new i.e. less than 1 to 2 years. The Thursday class is for very new people and basic and repetitive skills. Class consists of all types’ students business folk and a number of females. Wednesday is for new to advanced persons and has mostly university students with both sexes. Monday nights are slightly more advanced and a lot tougher for people in terms of Ji-Geiko. We do on Mondays have a number of ladies who are very skilled.

My point being having classes at different levels allows ladies to choose their level at which they are comfortable. We are less militaristic in terms of the way we train there is respect given to all, training is hard and folk are pushed to improve their skill, there is no gung ho macho rubbish. Each person is grateful for the opportunity to learn from each other. In a recent competition we held in our region one of our ladies came third overall in a mixed grade and sexes match. She is quiet petite and held her own against very large and aggressive men.

aboli

16th March 2011, 03:56 AM

Hi ! In my dojo we are quite a few women, advanced and beginners.

•Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
No, otherwise it wouldn't be a martial art would it ? We come to kendo because we want to try fighting, not being calm.
• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
I'll answer anyway. Competition, spirituality and giving ourselves a goal. Being with friends and having a fun time.
• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
No. Why ? Girls can be fitter than boys, you know ?
• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
Not thinking that they are less advantaged than guys. Thinking of them as potential opponents. Being kind to them and not trying to seduce them, making them feel at home and in company of friends.
• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
Friendship, the fun we have, the goal I want to reach and the kindness of a few sempai the first days!!

Shinsengumi77

16th March 2011, 05:10 AM

UnimportantHero

16th March 2011, 06:10 AM

I'm the only male at my club now, as the last guy hasn't come back for weeks! (and of course, just after getting bogu! Arghhhh!) We actually have more women interested in it than men. I blame the hakama! ;)

Ha. It is the same way at Yamakage, where my Senpai is the only guy there.

Well, I guess the father of one the girls has started. We will see whether or not he continues. But yeah. Good times.

turboyoshi

16th March 2011, 06:27 AM

I'm the only male at my club now

Quit bragging, you should know that's not the proper kendo spirit.

Tamaki :)

10th August 2011, 03:29 AM

• Do you think the physical aggression in kendo intimidates females?
I think it probably does to some less confident women, however, if she knows her strengths and weaknesses, she'll probably get used to it and then she'll be able to advance, I'm always a little intimidated when I'm practicing with a sempai, but I then remind myself to have fun with it, and to believe I can do something great
• If not in your case, what qualities about kendo appeals to you?
I think the physical exertion appeals to be, getting to, and breaking away from my limits is always a refreshing new thing to me, I like to test myself, see how good I really am, and really, I have to check myself a lot, I can sometimes get very egotistical, so being in an environment where I'm way behind my sempai's saves me from embarrassing myself, and I'm able to further humble myself, I really like that part, I hate it when I get cocky
• Do you think that some drills may want to be modified or not?
no if the girl can do it, then there is no problem, but just keep an eye on the new girls I guess, to make sure they aren't overexerting themselves and not saying anything, I tend to do that sometimes.
• Are there instruction methods that might help females members?
I think we pretty much learn in the same way, but its always nice to see it again and again to get used to it, so I guess when demonstrating, do so more than once, with varying speeds and at different angles, this is what my sensei does, and I am able to grasp the concept easier.
• What keeps you coming to practice in your dojo?
I think just the warm atmosphere of the place, whenever I walk around, I get smiles or nods of the head as recognition from almost all my sempai's, granted, there are some that try to avoid me altogether, but they don't seem to have any bad intentions. from the first day I came to the dojo, when they were taking a break, they would always smile before passing me to go to the bathroom or something. Oh and I used to joke around with one of my sempai's, she was the one that sort of gave me something to really look forward to and to strive toward. So joking around and just plain having fun has kept me at my dojo even though its pretty far from my house, I will always want to go back.
so basically, coming from a newbie myself, I think to get some female students to stay, you would have to just be very friendly, and make it so that she doesn't feel left out, for example, when all my sempai's are practicing with their bogu on, my sensei would have me practice with a sempai that is tired or not feeling well so that I could practice my strikes. There is also this one sempai that has taught me how to have fun, by while we do kakari geiko or ji geko, in our bogu, this male sempai always laughs and smiles at me when are facing off, inadvertently making me laugh and smile, hard as that may be in bogu :D, this sempai also continually hits me on my men when I'm trying to turn around, telling me that I have to put my shinai out first before turning around. So I think you learn more by actions rather than being told what to do, you learn from experience. yeah sorry about all this, I tend to ramble a lot, especially when reminiscing, anyway, good luck getting more girl kendokas!

Cheers! （ ^_^）o自自o（^_^ ）, Heather