With all this talk of non-chudan kamae...

[tnagpal]

So the question as a beginner and someone who hasn't really faced these too much, how do you face off against the jodan and nito player? I read here that you change your kamae somewhat to point at their left kote? Any techniques or things to look for?

[Shinaido]

I have wondered the same thing. We train Chudan no kamae v. Chudan no kamae and never see the other. I suppose that, without the benefit of practicing against those kamae, the best option would be to play aggressively (as one should always do) and not end up in a defensive attitude. This is advice from someone who has not yet tested for 10th kyu, so feel free to whip out the saltshaker...

Jonathan

BTW, thanks to all of you who post your advice/experience for all of us. I just purchased some bogu (first set, wahoo!) from a member of the club where I train/play and when I was looking over the Bogu I remembered all that I have read on the topic of Bogu in these fora and was grateful for the knowledge that you have shared.

[Shinaido]

Whoa, I just re-read my post, and I meant 6th kyu. Lol.

Jonathan

[Will]

I was talking about this with one of my friends today and we came up with the conclusion:

Chudan vs Jodan
Keep your shinai pointed towards their left hand like in Kata number 5, it's more defensive. If they come down to attack, your tip should get in the way of their left hand and deflect the blow. You always move towards your right with seme. The attacks you can do are attacking the left (opposed to right) kote because it's now a legal point since his arms are over his head. The other is tsuki, but this might open you up a bit more. Of course there is do and gyaku do but this might again be more difficult. You must always be moving around messing with the ma-ai between you and the jodan because chudan is generally a more agile and quick kamae. Jodan also will have difficulty doing nidan waza (kote-men, etc) but anyone who's good can still do it. However for people who are not so good it's possible to tsuriage a blow easier (especially a men blow) because they are usually executed one handed.

Chudan vs Nito
Nito is a more defensive form. It's most important to remember that proper maai is not where the tip of your shinai reaches the tip of their shoto, but rather issoku ito. It's a common mistake for people to go tip-to-tip because its what we are use to. By keeping back you stay outside their range (nito is more limited on attacking distance and speed because of the two swords and its natural defensive nature) and can attack them before they have the oppurtunity to attack you. Watch out for the shoto because it is usually used to move your shinai or block your blows, however it can not get a point. So just be cautious and not focus on it. The only shinai that can get the point is the Daito (though there has been a noted exception in the kendo world forum). Again, stay light on your feet (this doesn't mean constantly attacking because this will tire you out very quickly since Nito can easily defend attacks) and attack when openings appear. In nito, it will also be unlikely for the nito user to do nidan waza because of the one handed attack.

[Old Warrior]

Speaking as a bad nito player - you've got it. At the instant you cross my shoto you are in trouble. Most high level players are thinking tzuki, but that exposes them to men if it is blocked. I find the best way to befuddle a nito guy like me, is with a barrage of attacks to kote, left or right. If you hit my daito hand, even if you don't get a point - it ain't coming down on your head so fast.

[Steve]

They key is you have to constantly adapt your kamae in order to fool the opponent as to where you are coming from. If you leave your kamae pointed at the opponents left kote (for Jodan), your kote will be easily hit. Leave it in Chudan, your kote and Men are open. Point at the right kote and your do opens.

You have to alter between all three..smoothly, and without pattern. Each position gives you an advantage in attacking a certain target.

Left kote = left kote, right do
Right Kote = right kote, left do
Chudan = Tsuki

Since Jodan (usually) and Nito are one handed strikes, you only get one cahnce at striking. So, the goal is draw the jodan / nito kendoka into attacking; make them think there is an opening when in fact its just a trap. Then use harai, nuki, or suriage waza to take advantage.

All of that is advanced stuff...even the kamae altering itself ih hard t odo correctly. Unless you have a good chudan kamae, which is why all this stuff is done later.

[supernils]

I's say that a standard technique against Jodan is to make a feint towards one Kote and then go for the other.

[Steve]

I's say that a standard technique against Jodan is to make a feint towards one Kote and then go for the other.

Sure. thats the same idea...you fool the jodan opponent as to where your intent is. if they start getting used to this feint, then don't switch the kote target.

The key is to keep them guessing.

[Loki]

Excuse me, but can anybody tell me the difference between nito and jodan? I'm just a beginner so I know normal chuudan no kamae and jodan no kamae and that seems to be (by far) not enough to understand some posts in this thread.
Please illuminate me.

[Anjin-san]

I may be wrong, but very basically Jodan is when the sword is held above the head as in no.1 kata uchidachi, and Nito is a technique involving two swords, a shoto (much smaller than normal shinai) held pointing towards the opponent, and the daito held above the head. Note also that whenever the left kote is above the head it is a valid target.

I had this discussion with with a sempai yesterday between team matches in taikai where I was scheduled to (possibly) go up against a jodan player next round. A kind of 20 minute 'crash course' in fighting against jodan.

One attack that he showed that I haven't seen mentioned here is to go for kote-men, but not how you might think. He showed me to literally hit for a kote as though the opponent were in chudan (as in hit an imaginary chudan kote), and that some jodan kendoka (and the guy I was going to fight) have a habit of bringing their shinai down from jodan at this, leaving men open for the men part of the kote-men.

Fortunately, I never got to try any of it out since in the end I didn't end up fighting the jodan guy.

<rei>

[tango]

good responses so far...
i've only gone against nito once or twice, and that was by a guy who had no nito training whatsoever.. (he used a lot of attacking with the shoto, thinking it "scores"..).. so it wasn't a lot of fun for me.

but as was mentioned earlier --- against jodan: tip up at the left kote and don't keep your feet still. i move around A LOT when somebody decides to go up into jodan.. in my experience, movement is the key.. messing with the maai.. keep 'em guessing..

[Loki]

Thanks! That helps a lot!

[Steve]

(he used a lot of attacking with the shoto, thinking it "scores"..).. so it wasn't a lot of fun for me.


You ca nscore points with the shoto. If the daito is being actively supressed by the opponent, the shoto can make yuko datotsu.

Many of the nito waza involve striking with shoto as well. Even if it doesn't score a point, it keeps pressure on the opponent and makes them tend to focus on it mor ethan they should.

There's a bunch of nito-ryu movies on our club website that i got from a japanese page. one of the waza demonstrations is kote men and the shoto is used.

[Nanbanjin]

So the question as a beginner and someone who hasn't really faced these too much, how do you face off against the jodan and nito player? I read here that you change your kamae somewhat to point at their left kote? Any techniques or things to look for?

Please have a cup of coffee or something before you read the following thread.
It is made up of two threads I recently translated from the Ichinikai forums in Japan http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/
Personally I would recommend against jodan until you are VERY confident with chudan. Still, the following information should provide a useful reference.
Sorry about the digression into degote. I wanted to be as faithful to the original as possible.
Will have to break this up to post it

**Facing Jodan for the first time**

Name: Auko

Hello. I have been training for two years since starting from senior high school. I was very surprised to learn that the essence of kendo was developed from how kote waza is performed. It made me realise how deep kendo is.

On the 1st and 2nd of next month I will be participating in a shiai, and in the individual competition I will be coming up against a person who uses jodan. This is the first time I will face jodan. I asked my seniors who have had a lot of kendo experience but nobody at my club seems to have had any real experience facing jodan. I am happy to be facing jodan as I feel this stimulus will be really good for my kendo, but the person I will be playing who uses jodan is from one of the best kendo high schools in our prefecture.

I understand that my opponent has a longer history of playing kendo, but I want to take this match as I always do and try my hardest to win. I am also the first player (senpoh) in our team competition and that position has strong bearing on the mood of the team, so I want to do my best in the individual competition to help encourage the team the next day.

My post has gotten a little long, but I was hoping that somebody would be able to give some advice regarding facing jodan for the first time, in particular semekata (how to attack/approach) (attacking around from the right, not entering into the triangle of the opponents two kote, etc.), as well as other points I would be careful about.

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Name: Hide

So you want to learn how to face "degote" right (editor's note: Hide has misunderstood the question. He realises this in a later reply, but I will include this post as it includes some great notes regarding degote).

The technique of degote can be summarised as follows:

Degote is a technique performed during your opponents action of raising their hands, and is initiated at the moment when you give the feeling of "I am going to hit".

So, facing degote you should watch out for the following points in particular.

Learn how to not let your opponent see or read your "debana" (the first movement in your technique).
Learn how to score points by making your opponent go for techniques and aim for your debana.
I think that you have actually thought about point 1 above yourself, but you seem to have had some difficulty in performing this.

Point 2 can be further summarised as follows:

Show your opponent that you are going to hit men and then hit kote-nuki-men.
Perform kote men.
Perform harai men (both omote (from the right) and ura (from the left))
Jumping right in to hit kote.
For 1. lightly show your opponent "I'm going to hit men now" and then as your opponent comes in with kote swing up in a large action to avoid the kote and then hit men. This is a technique that can be quite effective for junior high school level.

2. is a little more difficult, but once you get the hang of it it can be be very effective. Use the first kote to knock away your opponents debana-kote (like uchi-otoshi) and then hit men straight away. Looking at the result of the waza it will seem like "ai-gote-men" (hitting kote at the same time and then hitting men) or "kote-uchi-otoshi-men" (knocking the kote down out of the way and then hitting men), but make sure you just hit "kote-men" as well as you can without thinking of anything difficult.

For point 3, when attacking from omote (the right hand site) the technique is like uchi-otoshi-men, and from ura (the left side) is like suri-age-men. If the movement of the harai (knocking the shinai to the left or right) is too big you will be even more vulnerable to a kote attack so it is important to use a compact movement for the harai. As with kote-men (2), I think you should perform this technique without being too conscious of your opponent's degote.

Point 4. is an attack based on the idea of "handling kote attack with a kote attack". It is quicker for the initiator of the movement to hit kote than it is for the person waiting to perform degote. By initiating an attack with kote you are aiming to force your opponent to "change the attack from degote to something else".

I wrote the above in my own interpretation of your question, but please use it as a reference.

[Nanbanjin]

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Name: Hide

Oops!??? What happened to my response to the question that you so diligently posted the other day?

I have written a response to "degote". I wonder what got into me! I will give it another go and try to concentrate harder.

So, this is the first time you will face jodan? I am sure you are looking forward to this, but I am sure that you are also quite nervous. However, it is probably not as difficult as you think.

Having said that, there isn't really such a thing as a single "way of dealing with jodan". If you put it another way, even with chudan the "way of dealing with chudan" will vary greatly with differences in height, build, personality, favourite technique, development of seme, etc. Similarly there are many different types of jodan, so you can't simply talk about a single way of dealing with all of these.

Before considering how to deal with jodan lets think about what techniques are used from jodan to attack chudan.

* Shikake waza (techniques performed after pro-actively making an opening)

kata-te-men (one handed men)
kata-te-kote (one handed kote)
men-feint-moro-te-men (feint men and then hit men with both hands)
kote-feint-more-te-men (feint kote and then hit men with both hands)
men-feint-gyaku-do (feint with men and then hit reverse do)
Shinai-wo-haratte-moro-te-men (knock the shinai out of the way and then hit men with both hands)
* Kaeshi waza (techniques performed in reaction to your opponents attack)

de-bana-men (hitting men as your opponent attacks)
kote-nuki-men (hitting men after avoiding a kote attack)
kote-uchi-otoshi-men (knocking down your opponents kote attack and then hitting men)
tsuki-uchi-otoshi-men (knocking down a tsuki attack and then hitting men)
Jodan players can be widely divided into people who use a lot of one handed techniques and people who use a lot of double handed techniques. For girl's/women's kendo two handed techniques are probably more common. (editors note: the person asking the question, Auko, is probably a girl, judging from the name and the style of questioning)

Next consider the basic techniques for dealing with jodan.

* Shikake waza (techniques performed after pro-actively making an opening)

Attack (approach, not actually hit) the left kote and then hit the right kote.
Attack (approach, not actually hit) the right kote and then hit the left kote.
Attack (approach, not actually hit) tsuki and hit the left kote.
Attack (approach, not actually hit) tsuki and when the guard is lowered hit men.
Feint right kote and hit reverse do.
* Kaeshi waza (techniques performed in reaction to your opponents attack)

omote-no-suriage-men (hitting men after defending from the right) in response to kata-te-men (one handed men)
kaeshi-gyaku-do (reverse do after blocking an attack) from the ura (left) in response to kata-te-men (one handed men)
ura-no-suriage-men (hitting men after defending from the left) in response to kata-te-kote (one handed kote)
hitting degote in response to any two handed technique.
etc.
The most difficult thing about fighting against jodan is ma-ai (distancing). Normally us players who use chudan use our and our opponent's kensen (the end of our shinai) to judge the distance to our opponent, but when the opponent uses jodan when we want to judge the distance to our opponent their kensen simply is not there.

However, the person using jodan is used to this situation so they can judge ma-ai with physical distance. Keeping this in mind, when facing jodan it is important to ,

don't let your feet stop still and rooted to the floor.
don't fight to he distance of the jodan player.
In regards to point 1, the term generally used is "migi-mawari" (rotating to the right), and this has the advantage that by rotating to the right you can "enter the line of the jodan players left fist, and this makes it easier to close distance", but by always moving in the same way it is easy easy for your opponent to read your movement and use techniques accordingly. It is important to use movements that are not of a particular pattern and by so doing make it "difficult for the jodan player to judge the closing of distance".

In regards to point 2, jodan is generally at toh-ma (far-distance) in comparison to chudan. This is because jodan can use one handed attacks. Jodan attacks are performed from a position where the jodan player thinks "I doubt the chudan player would be able to reach me from here". So it is important to never be complacent when at toh-ma.

Jodan players find it more difficult to play at chika-ma (close distance). The jodan player finds it particularly difficult to play when the chudan player is constantly encroaching on their ma-ai. If you have the courage to enter the ma-ai without fearing jodan, I think you will be able to fight effectively.

Lastly lets consider your kamae (stance/guard).

The standard kamae is the "hei-sei-gan" stance used by the shi-dachi in Japanese Kendo Kata number 5. However, if you hold the ken-sen (end of the shinai) in the line of the opponents left fist as is done in the kata, from the point of view of the jodan player the right kote of the chudan player is wide open.
It is better to have the ken-sen even further to the upper right, so you can completely cover your kote.

At this point it is important to consider the right elbow.

When using "hei-sei-gan", if the right elbow is completely straight it is difficult to launch an attack and at the same time it makes the kamae susceptible to being broken simply by movements like feints. To be able to deal with all of the movements of your opponent it is important to leave an appropriate amount of looseness in your left elbow.

I wrote above that for girl's and women's jodan, the majority of techniques are performed with both hands, but the majority of scoring techniques are two handed kote and two handed men.The tactic is usually as follows:

From the moment you stand up jump in hitting one handed men from toh-ma.
After repeating 1. once or twice feint with a 1. type men and then attack with a two handed men.
To avoid being sucked in by this type of attack it is important to master "ura-yoke" (defending from the left -editor's note: I think Kahori-san from our club is very good at this).

Well, I tried to write a response. I hope you find it of some use.

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Name: Kurishin

Hide, that was great! You've given a complete and accurate explanation of how to deal with jodan.

After that I hardly feel confident to add something extra...

Auko-san, nice to meet you.

You must be looking forward to facing jodan for the first time.

I think it is really important not to be too afraid.

You started kendo from senior high school right?

I think that your opponent this time will also have started training jodan from when they started senior high school. I don't know how often you or they train, but you are both senior high school students just the same. Make sure you give it your best shot. I am sure it will be a good experience.

In regards to dealing with jodan,

When I was at high school the think I hated most about using jodan was tsuki. I always had red bruising from my throat to my chest. From my own experience I found it harder to face a straight chudan kamae than "hei-sei-gan". To show your opponent that you are serious about tsuki it is good to try a two handed tsuki from the moment you stand up.

I hope you find this useful.

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Name: Auko

Hide-san, Kurishin-san, thank you very much.

My opponent will be a senior high school student just like me. Yes, I am sure sensei have been saying this when I was still in junior high.

Anyway I will do my best. I will be in contact again.

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Name: Auko

I am really sorry. After all your good advice my opponent who I was expecting to use jodan used chudan...

Anyway, I just tried to play my normal kendo. Quite an oversight. And that person made it to third in the prefecture. In other words, I lost.

Jodan... what a choke, what a joke. (editor's note: in Japanese the word Jodan can also be translated to mean "joke". In this case Auko has made a pun, and I have tried my best to translate this into English)

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Name: Hide

Hehehe!

Quite an uncommon oversight! (LOL)

But if your opponent made it to third in the prefecture it mightn't have made much difference whether they used jodan of chudan.

Anyway, at least we had the chance to think about jodan, so I don't think all was in vain.

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Name: Kurishin

To Auko-san,

Well your preparations seem to have been foiled easily!

Like Hide said, there's no waste in learning how to deal with jodan. I also think it is important to think about dealing with your opponent before you face them. Please keep up your training with the same enthusiasm in the future.

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[Nanbanjin]

**Thoughts on Jodan by Gomachan**

Name: Gomachan

In first year of senior high there was a strong jodan player from PL High who was in Tamaryuki(??) and when I saw him I decided that I would like to play kendo too. I discussed this with the then kendo manager of Samugawae(sp.???) High, Saioh Manabu sensei. He told me that if I did 500 one armed suburi everyday after getting home from school for one month he would teach me, and finally I was able to meet his demand.

For dan grading you have to use chudan and what's more if you go to other clubs for training you get really beaten up with tsuki so I had some pretty bad experiences.

On to my topic. With jodan you are open to tsuki, do and kote, so you are saying to your opponent "come and get me" and in that sense you are without defence. However, like a fish to bait when your opponent comes in to get a point you hit men hard from above. You are like a hawk or an eagle or other type of bird of prey, and attack your oppnent from above.
You need to be particularly wary of debana techniques (attacking your opponent's attack at the moment the attack is launched).
When in jodan even if you understand that your opponent is going to hit tsuki you still leave your body open. You have an attitude of "if you are going to tsuki, then go ahead and tsuki". Firstly, there is no way you are going to hit after pulling back. If you just let your shinai drop you will at least score ai-uchi (both scoring at the same time).

(When hitting from jodan) you can home in on a single men or kote target, plus you can also use katsugi-men (men from the shoulder), gyaku-do (reverse-do), feint with men and hit kote, as well as other techniques from jodan.
I will continue later. I am far from a mature player, but I hope you find my thoughts useful.
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Name: Kuni

Oh! A timely topic indeed.

>With jodan you are open to tsuki, do and kote, so you are saying to your opponent "come and get me" and in that sense you are without defence.

Yeah, that's right.
And when your opponent simply goes into hit like that they get the crap beaten out of them.

I was told by Deku-san (??) that I should attack jodan more. Even when I am told this, I dont really know what type of movement to use to attack...
Is there anyone out there who could give some advice.
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Name: Hide

I am the webmaster Hide.
I was of the the same school year as the Yamato of PL you mentioned. We often had training shiai (competitions) with PL. I was also of the same year as Hayashi from Hokkaido who is now competing in the All Japan Championships.

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Name: Gomachan at home

As you know from training against jodan, ma-ai (distance) is different from chudan. Even if you hit men in the same way, kata-te-men (one handed men) as hit from jodan can reach even from a far distance. Also, with jodan it is the kensen (end of the shinai) are not touching so it is difficult to judge distance well. I guess it is best to attack men from a position where the jodan exponent can't use one handed techniques. Usually you enter ma-ai (distance) a little at a time, but when playing against jodan if you enter and leave the ma-ai continually the person using jodan will find it harder to judge distance and will get frustrated. To make it difficult for the jodan player to judge distance some people use ai-jodan (where both players use jodan), but in that case the person who is used to playing jodan will of course have the advantage so it is probably not the best strategy. You should keep your hands such that your left hand is further forward than it usually would be and hold a little extra distance with your arms extended and also keep your kamae (stance/posture) relaxed.
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Name: Gomachan at home

I am sorry for not writing my thread more skilfully.
I understand that Hide-san is the same age as Yamamoto. I am a little younger.

With jodan's ma-ai (distancing) the kensen (end of the shinai) do not touch so it is difficult to judge distancing.
Saying that, occasionally using ai-jodan (both players using jodan) will give the advantage to the player who is familiar to jodan and advantage so this approach should be avoided.
The best ma-ai is where the jodan player cannot hit men and it is a fact that entering and leaving this distance will frustrate the jodan player.
Keeping the left hand away from the body and extending the arms to hold distance against jodan so as to encourage mistakes in the jodan player's judging of distancing might be best - for example a kote strike might fall short and you can use this as an opportunity to return a strike. It is suprisingly important to exploit the second strike to win against jodan. Don't just try to win with a single men or kote - if you don't follow through with a second strike you will never be able to win after ai-uchi (hitting at the same time).

On the other hand, the jodan player is judging distance by watching the end you your shinai so if you make it difficult for your opponent to see your kensen (the end of the shinai) you will make it hard for them to play. It is probably best to hold your shinai a little to the right with a relaxed kamae (stance/posture) and wave the kensen confidently.

That's all I have to say for today.
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Name: Kuni

Well, well. I seem to be getting a clearer picture.
I am looking for what's to come.
I don't expect to be able to deal with jodan immediately just by asking, but I think it is good to get some concrete tips regarding defence and attack against jodan.
In this way the jodan exponent will also have a good chance to polish their technique.
Gomachan-sensei, please continue with your advice.

Kemuron-san, yatechu-san, eeji-san, are you reading this thread?
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Name: Kemuron

Gomachan, Kuni-san,

I am a bad studen so I can't get into all of the content, but I am following this thread with great interest.
I am really grateful to Gomachan for your imput.

(I am looking forward to the next installment, so I will express my gratidute now)

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Name: Hide

Fundamentally, if you think about attacking and defending ma-ai you will use.
To attack jodan so as not to let them read the ma-ai, it is most important for the person using chudan to be very familiar with ma-ai.
A person who is unsure of ma-ai against chudan will of course just become a punching bag for the jodan player.

It is important to learn how to go forward and close the distance without fear, and also learn what distance the jodan player is likely to launch an attack from. Keeping these points in mind while continually training are the only ways of dealing with jodan.

Once you have mastered this it becomes a story of what technique to use and where to aim for.

[Nanbanjin]

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Name: Gomachan

Hide-san, thanks for the follow up.

When training against jodan, I don't think it is at all impolite to treat your opponent with the same respect you would show if playing against another chudan player.
On this point, I find it a little annoying to have somebody repeatedly use weird tsuki attacks against jodan. On the other hand, I was taught that when playing against an eighth dan sensei you should start with chudan and then use jodan after excusing yourself to the sensei.

On to today's topic. I have explained about jodan techniques and targets, but before that I will only write about the important aspects of kamae, seme and targeting when playing against jodan.

The kamae should be such that the extension of the sword should hit your opponent's left fist and as I wrote previously you should hold your kensen so it can't be seen easily from jodan, keeping your left hand always forward and you should close in on the ma-ai while moving in rotation to the right.
When playing against chudan you step forwards towards your opponent. When you are both using chudan try moving to the left a little. The line of your feet will become in line and you will no longer be able to do fumikomi (stepping in). If you do the same thing against jodan, if it is left two handed jodan the jodan player's left foot is forward, so you need to move to the right to achieve the same effect.
It is time for a consultation (editor's note: this guy is a dentist c.f. http://www.blue.b-city.net/~hdc/).
I will continue later. I am a little like an unskilled jodan player talking in his sleep though...
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Name: Nagi

Gomachan, thanks for the great topic.
At our dojo we never use jodan. We are taught jodan, but nobody uses it.
At the Electronic Brain Trianing Club it is also encouraged to start with chudan and then take jodan after excusing your self.
If you can't do one handed techniques when playing jodan it is quite a handicap. Until now I have only used both hands, but I will try using one handed techniques next time.

Since my accident I have had trouble gripping and now I am using a beer bottle filles with sand or dirt to train and build up strength.
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Name: Gomachan
Nagi-san, the wine you brought over the other day, I relished it and didn't leave a drop.
This is Gocchan (short for Gomachan).

So, continuing from the other day, when playing against Jodan where should you aim for? Well, about 80% of the time people go for the left kote, but the Jodan player always know that this technique is coming.
Until now I have been most taken by surprise when opponents go for Men.
When engaging the opponent from Jodan, you move your left hand up and down and back and forwards. Like playing with the gearstick of a car, both arms stretch up and backwards and forwards in an action like the pantograph on top of a train. I have been really surprised by Sashi-men (editor's note: Sashi-men is a Men cut that where the first movement is to thrust the Shinai straight forward and then cut with a shallow but definite swing) at that moment when the arms are stretched upwards.

For the Jodan player Seme (approach/engagement of the opponent) is everything, so it can be effective to use this tendancy, letting the Jodan player go for your Men, and then retaliate in response to the Men cut using Oji-waza (technique after dealing with the opponents attack). When I instruct university students I often say that you need to make the game play yourself. In other words, the person who takes the lead in the game is the one who can win.

At university kendo tends to end up being based around Shiai (competition), but I think that it is OK to go through that type of period in kendo training, and I make no claims about ideals in kendo training. I still like Shiai more than Keiko (training) so I guess I am just an incomplete person who doesn't understand kendo, and I am not in a position to state lofty opinions. I apologise for getting off the track.

Whether in training or competition, I am sure that every one will be accustomed to the fact that the player who can take the upper hand and take the lead will be able to make their opponent move how they want, and that when in that position they must use Oji-waza.

It is also good to aim for Tsuki, but even if performed normally, perhaps because of the Jodan men, the Shinai is hit out of the way by the left elbow and a Men strike is scored by the Jodan player.
This happens rarely and is an improper way of playing Jodan, but when thinking of Kote-nuki-men the Jodan will naturally lower and when this happens a Tsuki point can be scored effectively

There are three patients waiting with their mouth's open, so that is all I have time for today.

[2003/02/25 10:14:18]
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Name: Kuni

This is really educational.
In regards to giving your opponent a target and then using Suri-age, if I went for that I don't think I could pull it off even if I saw it coming. I would lose out to the speed of the strike from Jodan, and good jodan players tend to make the course of their cut come from around the side etc. so I find I can't use Suri-age.
For Tsuki too, I guess trying to hit simply because the target is there simply doesn't work.
I suppose that you really need to use Seme (engage the Jodan player), but what can you do to make the Jodan player feel "I'm being attacked"?

[2003/02/28 19:39:31]
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Name: Nori

Nice to meet you. I am a 160cm midget, but recently when playing against Jodan players, I have noticed that by taking Gedan-no-kamae (lower guard, editor's note: rarely seen. I have never seen this played by a Japanese player) and throwing the feet to the left and right, the Jodan player tends to make a lot of air swings when goning for Men. I wonder if this type of play is difficult for the Jodan player, and whether the same thing would work against advanced players.

[2003/03/02 17:52:28]
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Name: Gomachan

Today I would like to change the topic a little and speak about strong kendo periods.
Looking at players in their twenties, the players Mori, Sakamoto, Kawahara, Furusawa and Kondo are all of the same age, and they are all very strong. I really think that there are years when strong rivals breed groups of good strong kendo players.
I think that Hide's year was one of those years.

Just at Kokushikan there's players like Yamamoto, Shiromizu. Nakano, Tokai and so on and so on and its just amazing. Hide-san is also one of these strong players , so I wonder whether "luck" is something you also need to win as an individual.

Having rivals is important, but it is definately necessary to come across a good teacher.
Even at a small town dojo when talking straight during after training drinks, there is a lot of talk recently about good sensei. You hear things like if you learned from this type of sensei your kendo would get strong, or that a certain sensei was good or that there is a certain sensei to whose training one tries to get to.

[Nanbanjin]

[2003/03/04 18:26:05]
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Name: Hide.

To Goma-chan,

>Hide-san seems to have been from a period of strong kendo players

Wasn't there also a guy from Gyushu Gakuen school called Nakatom-san who played Jodan like a monster?

[2003/03/04 13:53:00]
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Name: Gomachan

Kuni-san,
You know that there are a number of courses for hitting Kote from Jodan, right. Just as there are number of types of Kote-uchi from Chudan, I think that while there are fewer than for chudan there are a few Kote from Jodan as well. One of the most common is to hit kote after going over your opponents kensen, running in parallel with the opponents shinai that is in heiseigan kamae and hitting in an action of drawing the letter S. Other common ways of hitting is to hit kote when the opponent's kote rise like when hitting men, hitting when the opponent hides the kote like they are hitting yoko-men, hitting like I said previously by first showing the men and if feints are used in combination there are more variations. However, I think the one I use most in competitions etc is probably to hit straight in the shortest distance like hitting men. The opponents kote becomes open for only a split second, so speed is everything.

It was written in Kendo Jidai magazine by Shiromizu Sensei, who is from the same school year as Hide-san, that Kawazoe Sensei, who used to be a teacher at Kochi Gakugei school, used to tsuba-uchi right? I think that Kawazoe Sensei is really great for being able to deliberately miss kote and hit tsuba-uchi as a preliminary preparation for hitting a men strike.

I just try if I can to make the opponent be aware of the kote so I can hit men more easily, but basically because from jodan I can only hit high or low, I hit either kote or men. When I was a university student I used to do techniques like to hit gyaku-do after attacking the men and hitting tobi-komi-do (jumping in do), but now that I am over 40 that type of technique is beyond me.

Hide-san seems to have been from a period of strong kendo players, and even Nakano-sensei from Saitama who is only 170cm tall apparently also had a really strong jodan. I know this from speaking with people who actually trained with Nakano Sensei, and also get this impression from what I have seen in Kendo Japan magazine.
Nori-san, I thinkd that gedan is affective against Jodan too. I have felt that gedan is difficult on many occasions.
That's all for today.

[2003/03/03 14:25:07]
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[Hai_hai]

So the question as a beginner and someone who hasn't really faced these too much, how do you face off against the jodan and nito player? I read here that you change your kamae somewhat to point at their left kote? Any techniques or things to look for?

Face off with a karate kick to the balls. It should lower your opponent's kamae to normal.

[Chusan]

Hello,
opposing jodan or nito isn`t that difficult as it is supposed to be.
The main advantage especially nito-players have, is the fact that most kendoplayers aren`t used to it. In a certain way the same is true with jodan.
So do to them the same thing, they are doing to you - use surprise.
Which means, use an unusual kamae.
In my dojo we practice a certain kamae against nito/jodan which most of you might have seen on the screen already, used by "Conan the Barbarian" oder "DUncan Macleod the Highlander". :-) The Japanese name of it is something like kasugi. How to assume it: rise from chudan both arm and slightly rotate them against-clockwise, so that your left hand is -palm upward (!) in front of your right shoulder. Your kensen should point against your opponents right wrist while he standing in jodan. You may also advance with your right foot - meaning your left foot being the back foot of your stance. Seems complicated - just look at that kamae when next time watching a sword-play movie (yes, this time it makes sense *g* to see it). Then try it in your dojo and you`ll soon notice how extremely well-working it is when facing jodan- or nito-players.
Most of their high-technique are neutralized immediately, your men is safe, as your kote are. You can easily start your own attack or do a kaeshi or uchi-otoshi waza against your opponents then weak attacks.
Just try it. It`s fun - and it works!

[aru-ma]

just a clarification, I think it's called kasumi not kasugi

[tango]

nanbanjin - thanks for your work in putting all that stuff up..

very interesting!

[Chusan]

just a clarification, I think it's called kasumi not kasugi
Of course, thank you!
:ermm:

[Nanbanjin]

nanbanjin - thanks for your work in putting all that stuff up..

very interesting!

tango,

Thanks for the encouragement.
I have been in contact with the webmaster of Ichinikai, the site where all that (and so, so much more in Japanese) came from. He is planning an addition to his site for kendoka outside Japan. He has been kind enough to offer to include some translations I did of stuff from his website. I am looking forward to see what he puts together.

[tango]

dude.. that will be awesome! .... especially to those of us who have very limited access to japanese kendoka/instructors...

...part of the reason i like this site, too!

[Nanbanjin]

dude.. that will be awesome! .... especially to those of us who have very limited access to japanese kendoka/instructors...

...part of the reason i like this site, too!

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing it up and running.
I have finished the bulk of the first block of translations on teaching basics. The webmaster said he will get them up when he has time. Being Japanese this means that he might take a while, but you can be sure that when it's done it will be done well.

There is an instructor from the States called Toshi who is pushing for the new forum. A guy called Hiro from Dallas also seems to be in on it.
I can't keep away from this forum now that I have found it so I am sure I will keep you posted.

If you look around this forum you will find some more extracts from the translations I have done. I am not a qualified translator yet, and I am also a little lazy so please forgive mistakes in grammar, spelling etc. Let me know if I could have worded something better.

[Nanbanjin]

just a clarification, I think it's called kasumi not kasugi

Intereting note on kasumi from Ichinikai...
http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs4/882491937213675.html
Provided with the kind permission of Ichinikai.



Name: Hide.

In regards to "kasumi-no-kamae" as you have asked about, the technique (as it is used in kendo) is actually something I developed. I creating this kamae I took hints from from the "Chudan-kasumi" of Ono-ha-itto-ryu.

However, the "Chudan-kasumi" of Ono-ha-itto-ryu is done with the left leg forward, and while I played like that at first, it was a little hard to strike from that position. Because of this I changed the style to having the right leg forward, and this is the "Kasumi-no-kamae" that today has become popular as a tactic against jodan.

The point to remember with this kamae is the height of the defensive power.


By pointing your kensen at your opponent's right kote you hide men, kote and do all protected with the ura of the shinai.
It is dificult to score one handed points against this kamae from jodan. It is easy to counter with "Ura-no-suriage".
It is easy to go for the right kote, which is kept to the back in jodan (this is particularly effective against moro-te (two handed) style jodan).


However demerits are as follow.


Because the left hand strays from the centre line it is difficult to strike accurately.
In general it is a poorer technique in terms of attacking power that heiseigan.


I play in jodan sometimes, and I really hate playing against kasumi-no-kamae.

[moocow65]

Bah.. kasumi kamae isn't that difficult to beat. It's just a really annoying kamae for us jodan and nito kenshi. Sure it is hard to hit someone from kasumi, but their offense goes down alot as well. If you're able to manipulate the direction of the shinai as you strike, you can easily get around the defense and hit their men or kote. You can even do doh too. Just have to think about it for a while that's all.

[misterkurukuru]

thats why i dont do that kamae on you!

[Kirin]

Against jodan or nitoh, kasumi is very effective.

When I have to compete or practice against jodan or nitoh, I usually use kasumi (gyaku-ksaumi) and hira-seigan and close 'maai'
(one step with kasumi then another with hira-seigan ...so on)
Once you are in your maai, its all yours!
kote fake hidari kote
hidari kote fake kote
tuki men
kote(hidari) fake men(migi/hidari)
men fake gyaku do

If you are aggressive, trick to jodan is to 'seme' 2 diffrent places.
for nitoh is 'seme' 3 diffrent places. (ie kote fake hidari kote fake men/kote, tuki kote fake men, tuki men fake gyaku do)
Also, against nitoh, your hikiwaza can be very effective, sicne they can only use 'juuji no kmae'
Once you establish your own maai and opponent start attacking, you can always suriage or kaeshi waza

But bottom line is, keep moving counter clock wise and know your maai.
once you stop or 'ituki' you are jodan or nitoh's best target!

[Nanbanjin]

Against jodan or nitoh, kasumi is very effective.

When I have to compete or practice against jodan or nitoh, I usually use kasumi (gyaku-ksaumi) and hira-seigan and close 'maai'
(one step with kasumi then another with hira-seigan ...so on)
Once you are in your maai, its all yours!
kote fake hidari kote
hidari kote fake kote
tuki men
kote(hidari) fake men(migi/hidari)
men fake gyaku do

If you are aggressive, trick to jodan is to 'seme' 2 diffrent places.
for nitoh is 'seme' 3 diffrent places. (ie kote fake hidari kote fake men/kote, tuki kote fake men, tuki men fake gyaku do)
Also, against nitoh, your hikiwaza can be very effective, sicne they can only use 'juuji no kmae'
Once you establish your own maai and opponent start attacking, you can always suriage or kaeshi waza

But bottom line is, keep moving counter clock wise and know your maai.
once you stop or 'ituki' you are jodan or nitoh's best target!
Thanks Kirin,

I will try a few of these at training tomorrow.