Shimpan Question re: Jodan

[DCPan]

Question, isn't touching the blade part of the shinai a hansoku regardless of situation?

If so, why is it that in more than several references (i.e. Kendo Nippon or other books or chiba sensei's jodan video), there is a technique or two in jodan where if the opponent were to tsuki you, you can bring your fist or forearm down on the opponent's tsuki as you strike them?

The explanation is that it is "safe" because you are bringing your hands down on the "back" of the blade, but I thought it didn't matter which "side" of the shinai you touch?

:D

[The great I AM]

Question, isn't touching the blade part of the shinai a hansoku regardless of situation?

If so, why is it that in more than several references (i.e. Kendo Nippon or other books or chiba sensei's jodan video), there is a technique or two in jodan where if the opponent were to tsuki you, you can bring your fist or forearm down on the opponent's tsuki as you strike them?

The explanation is that it is "safe" because you are bringing your hands down on the "back" of the blade, but I thought it didn't matter which "side" of the shinai you touch?

:DTechnically the blade is the cutting section of the shinai, right? The cutting section is not on the top. If you look at most pictures of a shinai with indication of monouchi they are usually on the bottom too.

Edit: I'd have to go back to the book and check if the monouchi is strictly defined as the "blade edge" of the shinai or the whole area. I've a feeling it's the blade edge only.

Maybe its time for the hated "if it were a real sword" discussion/agreement/argument to rear it's ugly head again!

[Kenshi]

I think its if you touch ANY part of the shinai (bamboo) with your hand (deliberatly). For example, if you try to realign your nakayui mid-shiai you will almost certainly get a hansoku.

The technique where you knock the tsuki away with your tsukagashira (or kote) is one of the methods the Tiger of Iwate uses to evade Shuras-evil-father and his death-bringing katatezuki. Of course, death was actually brought, so like the good guy in this story, I wounldnt put too much emphasis on this waza.

Maybe Chiba got it from the manga....

[Neil Gendzwill]

If so, why is it that in more than several references (i.e. Kendo Nippon or other books or chiba sensei's jodan video), there is a technique or two in jodan where if the opponent were to tsuki you, you can bring your fist or forearm down on the opponent's tsuki as you strike them?I was taught to use the tsuka for that technique. You just pull your hands down to deflect the incoming tsuki downwards with the tsuka, then it's morote-men as the counter.

[tango]

to expound on kenshi's point... the idea is that you can't grasp the opponent's shinai...
and as he correctly points out, if you grasp your own shinai to try and "fix" something, that's supposed to be hansoku as well (although depending on the division in play, a shimpan, in his best judgment, might tell the guy he can't do that and just let it go.... i.e., kids division, kyu division...)

dropping your hands -- as it were -- in jodan is not the same thing as "touching the opponent's shinai" since the jodan player, in your example, keeps both hands on his own tsuka.
in my mind, dropping his hands and "touching' the opponent's shinai would be about the same way that your elbow might touch the opponent's shinai in tsubazeriai or something..

[tango]

...and to add to that... it's what Neil's saying... the jodan player who does this technique is (or is supposed to be, from my understanding) using his tsuka to deflect the tsuki.

[Kagerou]

I think its if you touch ANY part of the shinai (bamboo) with your hand (deliberatly). For example, if you try to realign your nakayui mid-shiai you will almost certainly get a hansoku.



Side question. How do you fix your nakayui then? Do you have to stop the match and tell the shimpan?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Side question. How do you fix your nakayui then? Do you have to stop the match and tell the shimpan?Yes. If you notice any problem with your equipment, pick a moment when you are (relatively) safe from attack and raise your hand. The shimpan will call yame, and then you explain the problem. He will either give you permission to fix it or fix it himself.

[ben]

Hold up one hand to signal to the shinpan. Don't do it as your opponent is launching an attack, or you might get a hansoku.

So long as the jodan kendoka's strike down on the opponent's sword's mine was truly a sharp strike, like a kind of uchiotoshi, and not a grab, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Also it should only be an occasional technique, and the person doing it should be proficient at it. If it were clumsy and interfering with the flow and progress of the match, then it could be hansoku.

b

[Kagerou]

I have no experience with this aside from what I've read and seen so take it for that.

From what I've read jodan is supposed to be the all offense kamae. You sacrifice your defense in order to make attacking easier. Wouldn't blocking someones tsuki without attacking them in the same motion be against the intent of the kamae? To me that would be hansoku.

I realise that jodan must be difficult because you're doing something new and uncommon at a high ranked level so people expect more from you, but I think fighting from the point of view of "I'll just block their tsuki if they throw it" is incorrect. You should be trying to beat the person to the strike not making a defensive reaction.

Again, take my opinion for whatever you think it's worth.

[nonamehandle]

can someone clarify a bit more? so it is a legitimate technqiue to block an incoming attack from jodan kamae by striking at the opponent's shinai with the hands?

in the few occasions that i have done jodan, i've used the tsuka to strike down an opponent's tsuki; or i have struck at the same time that the opponent is coming in and the bringing down of my hand "naturally" :) knocks the opponent's shinai from the center...but i never considered this to be a "clean" technique, mainly cause i am striking the opponent's shinai with my hands....

[JSchmidt]

I have no experience with this aside from what I've read and seen so take it for that.

From what I've read jodan is supposed to be the all offense kamae. You sacrifice your defense in order to make attacking easier. Wouldn't blocking someones tsuki without attacking them in the same motion be against the intent of the kamae? To me that would be hansoku.


Say what?..give them a hansoku for not using jodan with the right intent?


I realise that jodan must be difficult because you're doing something new and uncommon at a high ranked level so people expect more from you, but I think fighting from the point of view of "I'll just block their tsuki if they throw it" is incorrect. You should be trying to beat the person to the strike not making a defensive reaction.

Again, take my opinion for whatever you think it's worth.

Do you *never ever* block?. I mean, blocking is *bad*, right.

Nobody seriously fights from jodan thinking "I'll just block their tsuki", but you will react to defend yourself if caught out.

[tango]

Do you *never ever* block?. I mean, blocking is *bad*, right.

Nobody seriously fights from jodan thinking "I'll just block their tsuki", but you will react to defend yourself if caught out.


Not only that, but I think most of you jodan guys, after blocking/thwarting tsuki with the tsuka, might immediately follow-up with a men strike... mayhap even morote men...

..that's my impression anyway...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Not only that, but I think most of you jodan guys, after blocking/thwarting tsuki with the tsuka, might immediately follow-up with a men strike... mayhap even morote men...

..that's my impression anyway...I'm not a jodan specialist, but as I said before looking to knock down a tsuki and then follow up with morote-men is a thing you can do deliberately, you're not necessarily "caught out".

[tango]

yes... good point, neil...

[jmarsten]

Consider the fact that often in tsuba zeriai the blade portion of the shinai is often touched. To the point that if it were your fingers against the blade you would have a serious problem. This is called as a hansoku only after repeated and prolonged contact as improper tsuba zeriai . So the normal foul is the actual grasping of either your shinai or the opponents. Therefore batting down the shinai from above from jodan is not considered a foul in the normal course of the conduct of a match.

[qpuppy]

I'm not a jodan specialist, but as I said before looking to knock down a tsuki and then follow up with morote-men is a thing you can do deliberately, you're not necessarily "caught out".

Firstly, regarding about the follow up after deflecting the tsuki. Morote-men is used is mainly becasue of the distance. When someone tsuki you, the distance between yourself and your opponent will be too close to cut with a katate.

Regarding the knocking down a tsuki with the bottom of your left wrist, Jodan players do not do this deliberately. It is a natual reaction. I can pretty much say 99% of the time Jodan players would rather make a debana-men instead of deflecting an attack (and that includes Tsuki). This defence is pretty much used becasue it is very much not prepared for that attack.

When you are in Jodan, sometimes you can pick out when your opponent is going to Tsuki, however not all tsuki can be picked out until the last minute (especially higher grade kendokas) hence the defence.

[The great I AM]

When you are in Jodan, sometimes you can pick out when your opponent is going to Tsuki, however not all tsuki can be picked out until the last minute (especially higher grade kendokas) hence the defence.
I don't know about the rest of the quote, but this would suggest that by virute of the difficulty in anticipating it, Tsuki, especially with "Higher grade kendoka" is a more succesful ippon against jodan, when this is really not the case. I can't remember the last time in a full on competition that I saw a tsuki, katate or morote, scored on someone doing jodan.

Actually, now I think about the rest of it, this technique could probably be regarded as a kind of oji waza. What's more, I don't think that someone who does it would be using it almost solely as a reactive action, and it is a deliberate action. Debana men is nice and all, but if the tsuki is good then your debana men is going no where, logistically.

Also, think about kaeshi dou in the same light: men debana men is always preferable, but people still regularly do kaeshi dou. The difference is the timing and preperation. I reckon you could apply the same to tsuki debana men and tsuki knockdown men (I wish I knew the japanese for that...). The timing and prep are different for both. If the dude in front doesn't respond to your seme to set up your debana men, but you can deflect the tsuki for morote men, you're not going to plough the debana men anyway, right? If you can knockdown the tsuki and do morote men, then why not? Beats a kensen to the throat!