Questions on Bogu

[Revenir]

I'm quite new to this forum, so hi all =)

Just got my bogu today, which was pretty fast, I ordered it 10 days ago only. Got a few questions though.

Firstly, is it supposed to smell so bad? I seems to rub off more than my keikogi did... and the leather parts of the kote smell like some chinese herb or tea or something.

How tight are the men and kote supposed to be? I can put the men on okay, but i don't know how far back i should pull it, should i be facing straight ahead when it comes on, or slightly upwards? For the kote, I can't feel my shinai as well, and it's so hard to control... plus my hand can't hold it properly and has to 'square' abit

[Andoy]

I'm quite new to this forum, so hi all =)

Just got my bogu today, which was pretty fast, I ordered it 10 days ago only. Got a few questions though.

Firstly, is it supposed to smell so bad? I seems to rub off more than my keikogi did... and the leather parts of the kote smell like some chinese herb or tea or something.

How tight are the men and kote supposed to be? I can put the men on okay, but i don't know how far back i should pull it, should i be facing straight ahead when it comes on, or slightly upwards? For the kote, I can't feel my shinai as well, and it's so hard to control... plus my hand can't hold it properly and has to 'square' abit

Congrats on your first bogu. First off yeah, the dye rubs off alot, so give it a couple of practices before it sets in. I'm not sure about the men part but it should be snug around your face. What i mean is that your chin must be pretty snug on the inside chin rest. It shouldn't wiggle out of place when you shake your head while you have your men on. Oh and don't worry if it's uncomfortable at first, alot of people go through that but after 3 or 4 practices it should be fine. And for your new kote, don't be surprised if it's really stiff. That's natural. I suggest just wearing your kote around the house to break it in. Try massaging it to loosen it up.

In time your bogu will be broken into. Have fun! :cheerful:

-Oh by the way, where did you purchase your bogu? Can you give us the details? thnx!

[Revenir]

Ah, okay, that's good to hear... now, to learn how all these strings work =P

I got my bogu from www.kendoshop.com , #A200 from the custom bogu section. Actually i still don't get why it's so cheap compared to the 'bu' sets. I hope the kote and men are good...

[Andoy]

Ah, okay, that's good to hear... now, to learn how all these strings work =P

I got my bogu from www.kendoshop.com , #A200 from the custom bogu section. Actually i still don't get why it's so cheap compared to the 'bu' sets. I hope the kote and men are good...

Whoa...that's actually really good for your first bogu! The reason why your bogu is cheap compared to the 'bu' sets is because those sets are 100% handmade. There's also the the indigo dye type, yours is #7000 and the others are #10000, I don't really know how much big of a difference it makes but there are also other things, men material, do material, and stitching interval. Plus where it was made makes a huge difference too.

I think that yours is machine made because you said it came within 10 days and I heard hand made bogu takes around 2-3 months to make so yeah.

But still, that is a very good starting set! Have fun!

Oh and 'Bu' is a measurement unit in Japan. I think 1 Bu is equal to 3mm i think, i'm not sure.

[Pichit]

Revenir san

Don't worry for the smell of bogu, the smell is from smoke deer skin palm on your kote palm and kote head. It's smell weired but it's sign of quality, some dan people say it's good smell!!!

Also you might need about about 2-3 times practice for your kote to be able to control shinai ( on the first time when I have bogu I also have trouble with my kote like you)

Also ask your sempai or sensei at your dojo on how to fold men, kote, tare and doh properly, my english is bad so I cannot explain fully.

Anyway I look at the web site for A200, I think that the price go up from $771 to $820!!! while at nine circle ( kendoshop's European distributor) the price drop from £700 to £650 which I felt it's strange.

Overal it will take sometime for your bogu to fit your body properly.

[slidercrank]

There's also the the indigo dye type, yours is #7000 and the others are #10000
#7000 and #10000 are stitch count of the cotton fabric. It is not indigo dye type. Your bogu is covered with the same type of cotton fabric used to make hakama, so sometimes you will see a hakama is also advertized as either #7000 and #10000.

The higher the number, the higher the stitch count, and the stiffer and more durable the fabric.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Regarding men fit - with your chin in the cup, your forehead should be against the forehead pad (duh) and the overall feel top to bottom should be very snug, although you should still be able to open your mouth a bit. Side to side snugness is not so important, that's what the strings are for.

[Fraz]

You should also be able to look straight ahead through the slightly wider gap in the bars of the Men Gane, if your too low of high extra chin pads. (Chin or Head should sort you out) Being able to look through the correct part on the men will help with your posture...:)

Enjoy..:)

[Revenir]

Thanks all, first time i wore my men to practise today and it pretty much sucked. Firstly, my men was kinda loose and I really need some padding somewhere because right now it kinda forces my mounth to hang open a bit else there's too much space. But when i open my mouth, I bite my tongue slightly when someone hits my men.

Oh and out of a score of 10, I give the bogu I got a 2.
5 for the do because it's so pretty,
-2 for the kote, and -1 for the men, both because they provide close to no protection. My forearm is somewhat swollen and hurting now, and no matter how it tried to twist it so they would hit closer to the fist, it would hurt.
Our sensei was teaching us very basic stuff since it was our first time (sorry, not sure what type of keiko it's called, like just attacking men a few times, then we did the one where the... modotachi? would allow a men hit and we'd run past). Everytime i got hit on the men, it felt like the inside of a bell. I'm not sure if it should be that way, and it didn't really hurt, only there wasn't alot of shock protection.
Btw, they weren't hitting overly hard, I'm sure of that...
So, halfway through practise, sensei decides to give us power hits on our men, like proper menouchi (eh, i think that's what he said) as opposed to the weak stuff we were doing, he tried it on 3 of the others and said the men was good, then when he hit me... It felt like the men didn't quite absorb the shock, it was just there to create the boom of the attack... Bugger, it took me 3 seconds to regain balance from that. Then he said 'Korean?', and I realised why my 2 (or was it 3) mm bogu was cheaper than my sempais 4/5 mm japanese bogu.

My point is, can anyone recommend really really good japanese shops which sell good kote and men, no problems with do (uh, yet), but I don't wanna have a concussion next week nor lose full utility of my right hand, else how will I learn nito in the future that way =P

[Fraz]

Sounds about right....:)
The hits to the men shouldn't hurt but you should know you've been hit. Everynow and again you'll get a men cut that makes you ears ring. It happens and you just get used to it...

Kote are a different story. Unless your grip is perfect the lieklyhood of a kote cut hurting is quite high. Even with aperfect grip it can still hurt. I've got a wrist strain and i Wwear a neoprane wrist support and I still get painfull kote cuts almost every class. It's just one of the things you have to get used to.

Sorry if this deosn't sound very sympathetic but it's just the way it is... Sorry...:)

[emitbrownne]

Firstly, is it supposed to smell so bad?......... and the leather parts of the kote smell like some chinese herb or tea or something.

Just give it six months or so and you will wish your Kote smelled like chinese herbs. :D
Mine are currently ripening nicely....

[Neil Gendzwill]

My point is, can anyone recommend really really good japanese shops which sell good kote and men, no problems with do (uh, yet), but I don't wanna have a concussion next week nor lose full utility of my right hand, else how will I learn nito in the future that way =P
www.bogubag.com - if you want a strong Japanese-made men and kote, I recommend S22. You don't have to buy the whole set.

[tango]

everything you're experiencing sounds very normal for a new bogu..

it'll get better as it gets broken in...
stiff kote and men will relax a little bit with use and .. don't worry about it... it's all normal.

[tango]

Just give it six months or so and you will wish your Kote smelled like chinese herbs. :D
Mine are currently ripening nicely....


Ahhh... i know quite well this ripeness of which you speak!!!

[Revenir]

Oh... I thought... but it felt like it was just me, because there were 3 others who also put their men on for the first time, and they seemed pretty fine with the men and kote hits.

Are you sure its supposed to hurt like this? It's the next day now, and I can still feel the bruise here. I'll keep off buying new stuff though, if it should be like this... until I really can't take it... Almost dreading tonight's kendo practice...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sorry, didn't read your previous post carefully - if your men is too loose you also have a problem. I think you should add a pad. If there's a lot of space, use an old mouse pad or some blue camping foam. If there's not too much space, a folded-up tenugui will work.

[kanyil]

So is Revenir's experience pretty much normal? or was the A200 a less-than desirable bogu?

[Yann]

The seniors told me that in the beginning your wrists hurt, bruises etc.. But you get used to it after a few months.
So good luck ;)

[Haowen]

he tried it on 3 of the others and said the men was good, then when he hit me... It felt like the men didn't quite absorb the shock, it was just there to create the boom of the attack... Bugger, it took me 3 seconds to regain balance from that. Then he said 'Korean?', and I realised why my 2 (or was it 3) mm bogu was cheaper than my sempais 4/5 mm japanese bogu.

So your sensei says Japanese bogu is just so much better than Korean bogu? So many people on this board have said that their Korean bogu is good value for money. Now I'm completely confused.

Can I ask, does anyone know what is the actual difference between Japanese and Korean bogu? In terms of tradeoffs given the same price level, i.e. if I have the same budget, will the Japanese bogu be more protective but less comfortable, or is the Korean one more comfortable but less durable, etc.

I am also wondering if the price/value comparison changes as the budget changes. For example, is it that Korean bogu are better value at lower budgets while Japanese bogu are better at higher budgets?

Thank you!

[Bob the Blade]

first night in my new bogu and the men needs breaking in , it was giving me a headhache at the temples, need to loosen the laces on the right kote as I wear a wrist protector, other than that I was content with my e-kendo bogu. I have had it for two months but hurt my knee a week before it arrived so it was back to the dojo tonight and after two months out and a new knee brace I think a few were frustrated practicing with me( I was out of it) but Sensei came to me after practice and welcomed me back and it was great.
well I am getting off topic.
bob

[DCPan]

Can I ask, does anyone know what is the actual difference between Japanese and Korean bogu?

IMHO, that's like asking what's the actual difference between Japanese and Korean cars.

The answer is: which model are you talking about?

You can't make sweeping generalizations about bogu like that.

A real problem is this. Most of us amateurs wear two or three sets at most in our kendo life.

Unlike the pros, we don't really go through and wear many different sets...and rarely at the same time at that.

Thus, in my honest opinion, it's pretty useless to ask people for reviews half the time because there's no baseline for them to compare with.

It's like..."Yeah, that set is so much better than the dojo loaner..." well, I would certainly hope so...unless your dojo have brand new bogu for you to rent.

FWIW.

[Kirin]

Can I ask, does anyone know what is the actual difference between Japanese and Korean bogu?
as you said.. price is big diffrence.
But the MAIN diffrence is retailer's customer service.
ie. exchange policy, repair service ...etc

what you pay is what you get......

[Haowen]

Thanks for the replies, DCPan and Kirin.

What piqued the question was that sensei's response ("Korean?") which seemed to reflect his opinion that Japanese bogu were categorically better than Korean bogu. And being a sensei with experience and many students of various bogu it would seem that he does have a wide base of knowledge upon which to base this judgment. But then he may not be fully aware of the price / customer service factor, in which case the Korean bogu, since they occupy the lower end of the price scale, would naturally appear to be inferior in his eyes, while not necessarily being poor value for money.

In any case, I think the most tried and true procedure for a beginner buying a bogu is to pick a good and reputable dealer with good service (disregard Japanese or Korean), give myself a budget, and just grab the best set I can afford and hope for the best.

Thanks!

[Hai_hai]

...give myself a budget, and just grab the best set I can afford and hope for the best...
You can always post a topic, provide your budget and ask for suggestions from people who are satisfied with bogu that is in your budget.

[DCPan]

What piqued the question was that sensei's response ("Korean?") which seemed to reflect his opinion that Japanese bogu were categorically better than Korean bogu.

Hi Haowen,

Allow me to step on my "soap box" :rolleyes:

This actually hits on another things I've been meaning to post.

How do you "categorize" something as made in "where"?

For example, I love using cars.

Now, when you buy a car, some places will say, 86% parts made here, 3% here, 11$ there, and final assembly point. So, what do you categorize it by? Assembly point? Where the parts come from?

Take the example of a vendor that I know. They have the components made in China (futon stitching & etc), then they have the partial assembly point in Taiwan, then they ship it off to Japan for the final inspection & assembly, tweeking, and labelling.

So, where is it made? They sell it as "made in Japan"? Do I believe it? Not for a minute.

Take a more extreme example. I've see those bogu labelled as "100% made in Japan" with "genuine chinese red mosen inserts in the futon pad".

Well, the mosen isn't made in Japan...it's genuine "Chinese" mosen. So, how is it "100% made in Japan"?

Well, you say, it's rough material...that doesn't count.

OK, so where do you draw the line on "rough material"?

If I subcontract the making of the men-grille skeleton to china in the rough, do the final polish and labelling in Japan, is it made in Japan?

You see, with the global economy and OEM and all that fun stuff, I don't believe in labels like that anymore. It's not like anyone wants to deceive anyone else, but the manufacturing process is proprietary information at some point that affects the bottomline, and there's no way you are really going to know what you are getting unless you are on the inside.

Thus, like you said, buy it from a reputable company and hope for the best. Besides, there's nothing magical about where it is made...the real issue is, "who" made it and how good is he/she?

Sincerely,

David

P.S. There's always the pleasant surprise of stores changing suppliers on you when they are a store-front operation too.... :rolleyes:

[DCPan]

You can always post a topic, provide your budget and ask for suggestions from people who are satisfied with bogu that is in your budget.

re: my comment on baseline reference.

I was talking to one of my friends at iai yesterday. He called me a snob ~3 years ago for snubbing his bogu vendor. He gave the place a rave review, helped the club purchase from that place with a whopping 20% discount, and owns two men, two doh, one tare, and 3 pairs of kote from that place, not to mention a couple of sets of uniforms at that place. That's not even counting all the stuff he got for other people.

His review was so rave I got a set of that place's best uniform to see for myself. The dye didn't set as well as my other uniforms, the himo length was incorrect. The uniform gets lint balls within fewer wash cycles, and the list goes on and on. Let's just say I parted ways with THAT set of uniform rather quickly. It even shrunk more than my other uniforms.

Three years later (which is now), he said he's looking for a new pair of kote, and he's not buying from that place again because things don't last.

re: my comment on baseline reference.

FWIW.

[Hai_hai]

Haowen,
Go for the rich-boy show-off bogu. You know you want to. :rambo:

[Haowen]

Haowen,
Go for the rich-boy show-off bogu. You know you want to. :rambo:

I want to, desperately, but my wallet won't allow me. Damn. Perhaps I can go steal one from somewhere. I hear you can get them from people's garages, or something. :ninja:

[Hai_hai]

...I was talking to one of my friends at iai yesterday. He called me a snob ~3 years ago for snubbing his bogu vendor...
Snob... rich-boy show-off... same thing. You gotta do what you gotta do.

[DCPan]

Snob... rich-boy show-off... same thing. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Yeah...I forgot to add that my friend had a point :rolleyes:

But hey, I'm not the one in pain from bruises on knuckles and headaches after practice....

Besides, if my one pair of kote outperforms and lasts longer than 3 pairs of his, who's really saving money? My kote may be expensive, but it is not so expensive that I can buy three pairs of kote from another brand.

FWIW.

[Hai_hai]

...Besides, if my one pair of kote outperforms and lasts longer than 3 pairs of his, who's really saving money? My kote may be expensive, but it is not so expensive that I can buy three pairs of kote from another brand.

FWIW.
No need to explain. I know you own rich-boy show-off bogu.

[Lloromannic]

It's like..."Yeah, that set is so much better than the dojo loaner..." well, I would certainly hope so...unless your dojo have brand new bogu for you to rent.
Yay my dojo has one brand new bogu (2mm men, 3mm kote, a yamato do with a beautiful stiff mune and an extremely cheap tare for some reason) which is used by me, so when get my bogu I probably won't notice much (unless it's for worse)




Hi Haowen,

Allow me to step on my "soap box" :rolleyes:

This actually hits on another things I've been meaning to post.

How do you "categorize" something as made in "where"?

For example, I love using cars.

Now, when you buy a car, some places will say, 86% parts made here, 3% here, 11$ there, and final assembly point. So, what do you categorize it by? Assembly point? Where the parts come from?

Take the example of a vendor that I know. They have the components made in China (futon stitching & etc), then they have the partial assembly point in Taiwan, then they ship it off to Japan for the final inspection & assembly, tweeking, and labelling.

So, where is it made? They sell it as "made in Japan"? Do I believe it? Not for a minute.

Take a more extreme example. I've see those bogu labelled as "100% made in Japan" with "genuine chinese red mosen inserts in the futon pad".

Well, the mosen isn't made in Japan...it's genuine "Chinese" mosen. So, how is it "100% made in Japan"?

Well, you say, it's rough material...that doesn't count.

OK, so where do you draw the line on "rough material"?

If I subcontract the making of the men-grille skeleton to china in the rough, do the final polish and labelling in Japan, is it made in Japan?

You see, with the global economy and OEM and all that fun stuff, I don't believe in labels like that anymore. It's not like anyone wants to deceive anyone else, but the manufacturing process is proprietary information at some point that affects the bottomline, and there's no way you are really going to know what you are getting unless you are on the inside.

Thus, like you said, buy it from a reputable company and hope for the best. Besides, there's nothing magical about where it is made...the real issue is, "who" made it and how good is he/she?

This is completely true, but for a better example I would use shoes, they are also sometimes made in sweatshops by people working in slavery-like condition using sub-standard materials, but then you put a well known logo on it and suddenly it's worth more than the yearly salary of the person who made it, especially if it's made by (for example) an american company.

An example using cars would be German cars, people think German Cars and a shiny new mercedes or BMW comes to mind, but those cars are not fast and nice because they are German, Trabants and Beetles are german and they are not fast or pretty. Many of the German manufacurers have gained their reputation because of the quality of the materials used, many Volkswagen BMWs Mercedes and Audis are made on Mexico by mexican workers using non german components, Trabants were made on Germany by Germans but they are nowhere as nice as a BMW assembled out of Germany.