Responsibility

[lwegerich]

Hi,

this is what happened. I'm 39 years old, doing Kendo for one year know, 5th Kyu. In Bogu for 9 months, practising 2-3 times a week.

Last monday a shodan, let's call him K. hit me so hard doing men that I had a headache for 3 days and couldn't attend training. He did that several times during that training though I asked him after the first time to be a bit more careful. I did that very respectful, but...no effect.

He is the only one I ever experienced problems with taking men hits and he is known for that. Even 1st Kyus at our dojo are complaining about him though they are more able to deal with it than I am.

I met him today and told him frankly that I had problems after taking his men hits last Monday and asked him to be a bit more careful next time. He was pretty pissed and stsed that he will not change his way of doing men and that this is my problem not his.

I had the impression that he is not really interested in solving this problem. The way he reacted shows me that he was thinking like "How can this little kyu guy even dare to ask me for that".

I therefore decided to talk to my sensei (4th dan) and he said that K. is known for that and he will talk to him on next Monday before the practise. I told my sensei that I'm not willing to practise and / or spar directly with K. on monday though I don't have a problem with him personally. I think I'm old enough to seperate conflicts from personal feelings.

Now my question. Can you guys tell me frankly and directly whether my reaction was ok in the Kendo "environment"? What about responsibility for a beginner? I'm willing to train hard and can take quite a punch, but the men hits of this guy are simply too much for me.

From your experience of being kendo practitioners what kind of "deal" would you like to get worked out on next Monday?

P.S.: As you noticed I'm not a native speaker so sorry for all errors, but hopefully you get the grip.

[sjp]

Hi,

Now my question. Can you guys tell me frankly and directly whether my reaction was ok in the Kendo "environment"? What about responsibility for a beginner? I'm willing to train hard and can take quite a punch, but the men hits of this guy are simply too much for me.

.

Your reaction was fine , absolutley no problem with it.
You asked him politley and sought advice from your Sensei.

It's your head after all.

There's a difference between a skull crushing strike and a good firm 'Men' executed properly.

My advice would be.

If this person refuses to be more 'considerate' then

1. Dont practice with him.

or and this advice is for the more vindictive souls out there try a 'Do' when his elbow is in the way. Afterall you are only a begineer and he is shodan, smile and say 'sorry'.
Cruel sadist mode off.

Really everyone in the dojo has responsibilities for safety. If you feel that you personal safety is being put at risk then this issue needs addressing.
In the meantine invest in one of those padded Men inserts.

Respect in Kendo works both ways. He has a duty as a more senior person than you to foster and encourage your kendo. Hard practice yes, giving you concussion NO.

[JSchmidt]

You do unfortunatly get the odd person like that and I think you have approached it the right way..and if more people starts to refuse to practice with him, he will hopefully realise that he's the one who is wrong.

Jakob

[Old Warrior]

I think you went about trying to resolve the problem in a very adult fashion. Normally, however, I try to solve these problems myself. I would have opted for the Do Elbow or a Crushing Kote followed by the most profuse and seemingly sincere apology and deep bow. If that didn't drive the point home, I'd start practicing extra hard on tzuki technique.

I must confess though, that I still hit to hard. It is totally unintentional as I have the greatest respect and appreciation for all my classmates. Fortunately, in nito, I only have a 37 shinai; which lessens the effect, but it is very hard to stop the one handed strike. I am practicing dilligently, but I am simply not as good as I aspire to be.

[misterkurukuru]

EVER HEARD OF BLOKING, OR LEARNING FROM YOUR MISTAKES???????????
I have a waza that can knock people out if I do it with all my strength. I have hit a few people on the forum with it. One of the guys (Mr. French) has caught on to my nuki men from hell aka bunny men. Unless I really bait him, I cannot hit my nuki men on him anymore. Before I used to do it to him all the time, but now I seldom us it. You have to make adjustments. Instead of bitching to your sensei why don’t you ask him to teach you some waza! A guy used to smack my kote till my arm/shoulder/elbow/ you name it, was black and blue; so I learned how to do nuki men, kaishi men, and sashi men. The answer is more kendo less bitching! Try using his death blows to your advantage. I am sure your sensei knows lots of things to could counter his hard hits.

[k3nsh1n]

You can hardly call that 'bitching'
There is definately a responsibility on the senior members' part to take care of the beginners. If a beginner asks a senior (respectfully) to soften the blow then the senior should have the humility to realise that perhaps his strikes are too hard. If the senior is not willing then why the hell is he practicing kendo.
Kendo is all about respect and courtesy which the shodan did not manifest.
If the senior is indeed a shodan, it seems he doesnt deserve to be one.

P.S You have a waza that can knock people out if you use all ur strength Mister?
Well i do hope that you get countered to the max for it coz kendo aint about using all the strength in your arms to land a blow on somebodies head.

[AlexM]

kurukuru... you jumped to conclusions: you assumed he was talking about jigeiko. How do you know he was not complaining about someone hitting too hard during kihon? Or do you usually block and do oji-waza when practicing basics? :P

[misterkurukuru]

uhhh how can you be a motodachi when you only been doing kendo for a one year ALEX??? a 5 kyu doing motodachI for a shodan??? what the hell is that? okay unless your dojo is shoboi then people that are not atleast 3 dan wont be doing motodachi! if your sensei trust adults to do motodachi for adults...there is your problem....

k3nsh1n...i thought we could kick and punch in kendo too?? oh no i am as dumb as you are! GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
uhh okay so what % of our power shall we use in kendo...my senpai would kick my butt if it was not 100% by the way i do katsu kendo...i dont care about kihon!


if some zako told me to hit softer i would hit that disrespectful fool harder!!!!GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
no one counters bunny men..they all just run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

[AlexM]

kurukuru...pa?

Anyhow... don't you ever receive men-uchi from others in kihon??? Not as an "official" teaching motodachi but just as someone that happens to be in front of you when doing excercises? How about kirikaeshi?

I'm curious: No one below shodan is motodachi? What about just for basic kihon... two lines face to face, men-uchi four times, this side first, Hajime! (then rotate)... Is that not normal kihon?

Are you telling me that you have so many people that no one has to receive kihon from others until you get higher up in rank???

[Tenken]

lwegerich, I don't see why you would write about how you get beat up and complain about it. You should be thankful that a senpai has time to practice with someone with such a low ranking or experiance level. when I practice with senseis or senpais at my dojo, even though how much they beat me up or how hard I get hit, I feel thankful that they let me practice with them. Instead of complaining about how hard he hit you, learn from it. And if you have time bitch about someone else, practice and worry about yourself.

[misterkurukuru]

Yes Alex ever heard of blocking when doing kirikaishi?? Idiot!
you are assuming that it is not keiko…so we are both assuming are we not…we are both kuru kuru pa right? Thanks for always proving me right. Anyways in so cal we have a lot of 3 dans and up so having enough motodachi is not a problem…if someone hits too hard during kihon or uchi komi, its up to the motodachi to teach or adjusts to the person’s hit(by moving backwards ,forwards ,blocking when they do an incorrect hit). Alex...think a little dude, do you want to be confound #2 or something?

[lwegerich]

kurukuru...pa?

Anyhow... don't you ever receive men-uchi from others in kihon??? Not as an "official" teaching motodachi but just as someone that happens to be in front of you when doing excercises? How about kirikaeshi?

I'm curious: No one below shodan is motodachi? What about just for basic kihon... two lines face to face, men-uchi four times, this side first, Hajime! (then rotate)... Is that not normal kihon?

Thanks for clarifying the situation. It was indeed a five times men-uchi when it happened.

[lwegerich]

You should be thankful that a senpai has time to practice with someone with such a low ranking or experiance level. when I practice with senseis or senpais at my dojo, even though how much they beat me up or how hard I get hit, I feel thankful that they let me practice with them. Instead of complaining about how hard he hit you, learn from it. And if you have time bitch about someone else, practice and worry about yourself.

I don't agree on this. I think this opinion stems from a false understanding of the traditional japanese training methods.

BTW, there is nothing to learn from this guy in this particular case (kihon men-uchi). His te-no-uchi is not existing and he's only working with brute force.

I was thinking quite a while whether I should ask him to be more careful or just take the hits the traditional way (keep your mouth shut). I decided not to accept the way he hits but this is not a question of not being able to take the hits.

This is a very important distinction, I guess.

[JSchmidt]

I reckon kurukuru is just winding you guys up...


Jakob

[k3nsh1n]

Jschmidt, u r probably right, misterkuru or wteva is probably just trying to blow this thing up.. but just a couple of things..

wt is this crap about being thankful that a senior player is practicing with a beginner? that's the dumbest thing i've heard.
Yes, u show respect and gratitude for the people you practice with,
but 'thanking' a more experienced person for practicing with a low ranking beginner like me? thats just a load of crap. If a motadachi ever told me to be thankful that he's letting me practice kendo with him i'd tell him to take that shinai up his ass. That kind of attitude is possibly wt would drive people away from taking kendo.

And kurukru - ur just an idiot.
does ur sensei/sempai tell you to hit men as hard as possible? You did say
ur sempai would kick ur butt if you didnt give 100% didnt u.
No sensei/sempai would ever say that so either you r too dumb to figure out
wt ur sempai meant, or ur sempai aint worth listening to.

[slidercrank]

I don't believe our Southern California forum members realize how different kendo practice is outside of California and Japan.

Outside of California and Japan, everyone who can wear a bogu and can walk with the bogu on has to join the rotation and receive kihon wazas for the person in front of him. A 3-kyu receives men uchi from a 2-dan all the time in kihon waze practices. Mr Kurukuru and Tenken are being extremely unkind and unsympathetic to LWegerich's plight here.

In general, you are going to get hit in kendo practices. If you don't like it, then of course kendo is not for you. But then again, if you receive men uchi in kihon waza and you get a headache for THREE days, then something is not right.

I have a go-dan sensei that strikes extremely hard, and sometimes I had the luck and priviledge to receive his kirikaeshi. And sometimes the teaching sensei decides that to emphasize maai and datotsu-bu, the motodachi receives kirikaeshi with his head and not shinai. With this go-dan sensei, that means 21 star-generating blows to the head in a row. Do I complaint? No. But then again, I don't get a headache from it at all. If I get a 3-day headache, you bet I'd say something.

LWegerich, what you have done is correct and no need to worry if you have breached any etiquette. If your sensei agrees with you, then that's the end of the problem for you.

[slidercrank]

wt is this crap about being thankful that a senior player is practicing with a beginner? that's the dumbest thing i've heard.

THe idea is that your sempai deigns to take time and energy to practice with you and to give you more specific pointers during kihon and keiko, so you should be thankful for that. After all, you can't expect a sensei to give you a one-on-one explanation all the time.

Don't forget, given enough difference in rank, your sempai really has nothing much to learn from you. Especially during jikeiko, he would do much better for himself if he practices just with his sensei and his peers. So when you go up to sempai and ask him to spar with you, he's doing you a favor by consenting.

[AlexM]

Now really kurukuru-pa... such name calling, it's below you quite frankly. What happened to that hearty laugh anyway?

You block the first and last men in kirikaeshi? If I did that to a senior I'd get some really weird looks and a slight reprimand.

I must add that I was not assuming that this incident was in keiko or kihon either way since I didn't actually wade in on the subject at hand. But you're right! I should wade in, get all mucky on this subject!
Three day headaches? sounds rather serious... if you want to do something a bit nasty just tilt your head up ever so slightly so that he hits the mengane and not the men-futon(buton)... it's quite disrespectful and will damage his shinai (plus if you don't watch out you'll create a habit of opening up your throat to tsuki). But you will feel very little impact... I think...

At any rate, having nothing but 3rd dans as motodachi is quite impressive... but not practical for us: Only two people at 3rd dan or up in our little dojo... if they were the only motodachi they would probably suffer from ringing headaches after each practice!

So you never have a need to receive waza from seniors? I'm curious about this. How do the seniors practice? Just among each other? When practicing oji-waza do you only do it among people of your rank or higher?

[Old Warrior]

"So when you go up to sempai and ask him to spar with you, he's doing you a favor by consenting."

Somewhere along the line of my Kendo journey, I heard the concept expressed: "when you teach someone else you also learn something about your own Kendo".

It not only made sense but it surely helps to foster group cohesion and a sense of belonging to your school. I think the above is bit to selfish to be an appropriate mindset.

[lwegerich]

At any rate, having nothing but 3rd dans as motodachi is quite impressive... but not practical for us: Only two people at 3rd dan or up in our little dojo... if they were the only motodachi they would probably suffer from ringing headaches after each practice!

Guess we are pretty much blessed with dans during practise. Hamburg is a town in northern Germany where a lot of japanese live. So the Friday practises sessions sees three 4th Dan (german) and around 5-8 japanese Dans (2nd to 4th). All of our senseis have spend a lot of time in Japan practising Kendo and we have a lot of people doing sort of an "exchange program" between Germany and Japan.

Among all of these senseis the beginners like me (5th - 1st kyu) are allowed to spar. We do about 40 minutes jigeiko during the friday session and we (the beginners) have a lot of opportunity to practise with all the senseis and believe me, I never met more respectful and honorful people like these japanese dans. Doing jigeiko with them is a real opportunity to improve your kendo because these guys "lead" you through it and give short, not spoken "advices".

I am very thankful for that and believe me, these guys could kick my ass but they won't because it doesn't make sense for both of us. I think it's a good sign of maturity when you are able to bash someone but don't have to prove it. ;)

Just my two cents regarding the responsibility of the 1st dan. From my understanding of martial arts (I did 10 years Wado-Ryu Karate before) the 1st dan is the real beginning of developing an understanding of the art. Besides getting better in waza now improving your "attitude" is the focus.

Thanks for all your support, I'm looking forward to the session tomorrow where the situation will hopefully clarify.

[slidercrank]

"So when you go up to sempai and ask him to spar with you, he's doing you a favor by consenting."

Somewhere along the line of my Kendo journey, I heard the concept expressed: "when you teach someone else you also learn something about your own Kendo".

It not only made sense but it surely helps to foster group cohesion and a sense of belonging to your school. I think the above is bit to selfish to be an appropriate mindset.
Old Warrior:

You are absolutely correct. What you said and what I said are 2 ways of approach at the same thing.

When kohai asks the sempai to practice, the kohai should bear in mind of what I said. At the same time, when the sempai is being asked, he should bear in mind of what you said. Together, the practice will be meaningful and productive for both.

I only described the half of the situation because I was responding directly to k3nshin; he should have a more humble and thankful attitude towards his seniors.

[misterkurukuru]

hahahaha too weak! k3nsh1n...really you are not thankful that your senpai is doing keiko with you? geeze that just shows how dumb you are. you are the idiot! GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

alex- 3 dans and up do uchi komi on each other. If my senpai is going to work me with a hard men, i have to take it out of respect. I am sorry that you guys dont have enough 3 dans and up to do motodachi. if you guys dont have enough people then you cant help lower ranks doing motodachi. I do the mengane thing to guys that hit too hard.

The effort is most important, and i guess i was always told to suck it up! i dont know about you guys, but i would love to keiko with the hard hitting sho dan guy. if some guy like that was at my dojo, i would be pumped up and use his hard hitting to fuel me during keiko!

I aslo agree with what slidercrank has said. You have taken all sides into consideration and i cant arguee with that.
tenekn and i maybe a little harsh, but this is how we were taught in so cal. its not the wrong way or the right way, its just the way we have learned.

[Fantasia]

hahahaha too weak! k3nsh1n...really you are not thankful that your senpai is doing keiko with you? geeze that just shows how dumb you are. you are the idiot! GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

...

I aslo agree with what slidercrank has said. You have taken all sides into consideration and i cant arguee with that.
tenekn and i maybe a little harsh, but this is how we were taught in so cal. its not the wrong way or the right way, its just the way we have learned.

If you really believed that there wasn't a right and wrong way, you wouldn't be so disrespectful to the people who believe a different way than you.

And kuru, k3nsh1n's point about thankfulness was that if you REQUIRE thanks from somebody you don't deserve it. He never said being grateful is wrong. But you shouldn't have to be any MORE thankful to a "better" kendoka that practices with you than to one of your level. I agree with him 100%, if a senior kendoka said to me "You should be thankful I'm letting you practice with me" my opinion of him would go down the tubes, because he obviously has a superiority complex, and thinks me not worth his time.

[MaxPayneWayne]

oh boo hoo hoo. cry me a freaking river. aww... he hits you too hard. i got pounded on when i was a little kid. and this was from older kenshi, and i didn't cry about it. and alot of times they missed! hit me in the ribs, elbow, armpit, legs! and in that little documentary about eiga. he would go to a little dojo once a month to practice with the kids. he would pound them. he wouldn't hold back. this is to teach the kids not to back down. i didn't see those kids crying when eiga pounded their men. and not being thankful when higher kenshi do practice with you? what the hell? you better be thankful you ingrate! so what? they're supposed to be thankful that they are wasting their valuable keiko time with a POS like you? if any of my beginners thought that way, well, i could pound their heads to the ground, but i would rather not practice with them so they'll suck for the rest of their lives. not being thankful.... what a load of crap. the more experienced kenshi, including the sensei, are the only reason you get better. so you never thank your sensei or higher ranking kenshi for teaching you or practicing with you? or what? you're so freaking good that you can teach yourself kendo? ooooooohhhhh wait, i forgot you're KENSHIN! the hitokiri battousai!!!! uh oh look out! you can dodge bullets and jump 30 feet in the air and do ryutsuisen on your opponent.

[lwegerich]

i got pounded on when i was a little kid.

Well, guess that's the reason why you post such a crap. :laugh:

[slidercrank]

Well, guess that's the reason why you post such a crap. :laugh:
Lars, I think Max was responding to K3nshin, not you.

[Fantasia]

oh boo hoo hoo. cry me a freaking river. aww... he hits you too hard. i got pounded on when i was a little kid. and this was from older kenshi, and i didn't cry about it. and alot of times they missed! hit me in the ribs, elbow, armpit, legs! and in that little documentary about eiga. he would go to a little dojo once a month to practice with the kids. he would pound them. he wouldn't hold back. this is to teach the kids not to back down. i didn't see those kids crying when eiga pounded their men. and not being thankful when higher kenshi do practice with you? what the hell? you better be thankful you ingrate! so what? they're supposed to be thankful that they are wasting their valuable keiko time with a POS like you? if any of my beginners thought that way, well, i could pound their heads to the ground, but i would rather not practice with them so they'll suck for the rest of their lives. not being thankful.... what a load of crap. the more experienced kenshi, including the sensei, are the only reason you get better. so you never thank your sensei or higher ranking kenshi for teaching you or practicing with you? or what? you're so freaking good that you can teach yourself kendo? ooooooohhhhh wait, i forgot you're KENSHIN! the hitokiri battousai!!!! uh oh look out! you can dodge bullets and jump 30 feet in the air and do ryutsuisen on your opponent.

This from somebody's who styles himself after a fictional character from a mediocre action video game, interesting.

Thanks for posting that, now I know to give your opinion absolutely zero weight in any future posts you may write.

[LNGUYEN]

Let me ask a question guys. That Shodan guy is not the only one in the world who hits hard. Next time when you meet another hit hard stranger, then what do you do? go to complain again? and will you complain for the rest of your Kendo life? What happen if that person is a Hachidan Sensei? then you stop learning from him? Just my scenarior. I think the best way is find the way to sup up your bogu or try to protect yourself better. Think like a warrior, oh that guy has a very big sword and I won't face him even if I have to dishonor myself for not facing him. No, you will face him with a better preparation.

[Fantasia]

Let me ask a question guys. That Shodan guy is not the only one in the world who hits hard. Next time when you meet another hit hard stranger, then what do you do? go to complain again? and will you complain for the rest of your Kendo life? What happen if that person is a Hachidan Sensei? then you stop learn from him? Just my scenarior. I think the best way is find the way to sup up your bogu or try to protect yourself better. Think like a warrior, oh that guy has a very big sword and I won't face him even I will dishonor myself doing that. No, you will face him with a better preparation.

Thank you for an INTELLIGENT view from the other side of the picture (in relation to the original poster) and not an argument based on the premise of "You're a sissy-namby-pants"

It's definitely an interesting question, but I find it fascinating that in so many other threads here I hear snide, or at least off-the-cuff comments about "heavy-handed juniors" that pass by with nobody commenting on them, but when it's somebody better than you being "heavy-handed" it generates fierce debate.

I just wish I could smack my students at school around with my shinai and use the same arguments about improving yourself to avoid pain. Some of the girls at my school could definitely benefit from that type of "education"

[MaxPayneWayne]

This from somebody's who styles himself after a fictional character from a mediocre action video game, interesting.

Thanks for posting that, now I know to give your opinion absolutely zero weight in any future posts you may write.
Dear fantasia,

What the hell are you talking about? Whom do I style myself after? I am not as knowledeable in the mediocre action video game genre as yourself. Forgive me for not being an expert in that area.

[k3nsh1n]

There are a few who are accusing me of not being thankful that i am being taught kendo, that i am not being humble enough. I never said that or meant to portray that sort of manner. What i meant was, i wouldnt be thankful if i got the impression that my senior was 'expecting' gratitude for 'wasting' his time on a low level beginner like me. I have enough respect for myself to believe i am worth being taught whether you are 1st kyu, 1 dan or even hachidan.
If the senior doesnt think im worth teaching because he feels he has nothing to learn from me since im so crap as some of you'd like to put it then he doesnt have to. Obviously im thankful out of respect for him, that he is taking the time to teach me and train me, but not if he feels im a waste of time for him.

Secondly, someone mentioned that if you were to play a stranger and he hit too hard, then you wouldnt be able to complain.. something along those lines.
Thats very true, but the point is the shodan hitting too hard isnt a stranger which is more the reason the beginner has the right to ask (politely) IF the motadachi could soften his strikes. The point i wanted to raise was nothing to do with the actual complaint but how the shodan reacted.
Why would he refuse? that is just something i dont get. The opponent is only a beginner. Some may say to get better, you need to play under tough situations but not everyone does kendo to be the best. Many play for leisure and i think that is something worth thinking about.

Just one last thing, some are saying 'if that was me i wouldnt do that...' and 'those students dont complain..' if they can handle it good for them. Why do you expect everyone to have the same kind of disposition as you? Besides, we are not talking about you or other students we have not even met, we are talking about this one kendoka who cant handle a men that he feels is too hard. If he feels he is hit too hard, who are any of you to say that he should just learn to deal with it? Besides, it takes more courage to ask a senior if he could adjust his men than being 'afraid' you'll be disrespectful and not ask. The senior should have just as much respect for a beginner as a beginner has for the senior.

[LNGUYEN]

If you practice Kendo just for leisure, not serious, then you don't need to face him again, just withdraw. At the end, nobody can force you to do anything you don't want. Otherwise, the shodan guy will not listen to you at all. Being a begineer does not mean we are victim or children to more senior Kendoka. You said he is not stranger but a particular one in your dojo, then why don't you treat him like a stranger? Just sup up your bogu to prepare to face others ahead of you when you start to jigeiko or practice with outsiders. If he hits you so strong that make you headache for 3 days, then hit him back with the same strength so he can experience what is like.

[alexpollijr]

Safety issues always come first.

[Angry Kid]

Surely the fact that this Shodan 'k' hits very hard just shows that he has no understanding of tenouchi, we call em 'clubbers' at our dojo. I train during the week with one and as I type this I have bright red stripes up my arm from his missed kote shots! He also rattles my men hard as if a harder hit counts more.

[Neil Gendzwill]

we call em 'clubbers' at our dojo
Really? We usually call them "nidan".

[Yowai]

Really? We usually call them "nidan".
I thought it was "baka."

Shodan is nothing. Kids finishing highschool are shodan. If you are 39 and this K person is below 30, you are his sempai. If K is older than 30, then K must have suffered brain damage from all the kendo beatings K received as a child. If a hard hitter comes your way, block the hits with your shinai. If the hard hitter finds that insulting, that person won't hit you anymore. Win-win.

Ignore all this philosophical crap about some spiritual or divine nature of learning Kendo. Kendo is a sport. To youths, kendo is that annoying PE curriculum activity that they have to do, but is better than smelly Judo. Kendo is the rich kid's choice, as most students can't afford the expensive bogu.

lwegerich, if Kendo is simply a hobby, treat it as such.

[k3nsh1n]

Telling someone to withdraw if he is not serious about kendo
and just playing for leisure does not seem entirely appropriate. Even worse is if one has to come to that decision due to one stubborn shodan who refuses to soften his strikes. Perhaps he cant? perhaps that is his way of hiding his lack of technique. who knows.
Like Yowai has said, kendo is a sport and i think some people take it way past
that line and treat it as a englightening philosphical guide to life.
I can understand it develops and improves your mental and spiritual sides but there are heaps of other ways to do that if they are the only reasons
you are taking kendo.
In every sport safety is the issue and kendo should be no different.
'Be a warrior, be better prepared' yeah okay that can also be the mindset but how 'bout just 'orite, perhaps you shouldnt hit so hard' why is everyone overlooking that perspective and reluctant to admit that maybe the shodan should just soften the blow? Softening the blow wont make his strikes any slower or make his technique any worse.

[A P]

If sumpai or whatever give me a to hard of a hit (at extream). I would

be saying Right back at you with a huge smile on my face, then I would bow.

Ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[tango]

Fact is, some schools are just harder hitters than others. Some schools play very physical kendo and others don't.

I don't think anyone should be hitting brand-new beginners consistantly hard. Once or twice, ok.. and as long as they're hitting on target, I don't think anyone has room to complain.

By hitting a newbie hard once or twice, the message will get across that 'hey, I'm not protecting my men,' or, 'hey, I'm not protecting my kote', or 'hey, I'm moving too slow and need to speed up my footwork,' or, 'hey, I need to get my zanshin in order.'

Consistantly kabonging a newbie will, in my opinion, make them forget about trying to do proper kendo and start thinking only of revenge, causing them to swing wildly (and dangerously).

The heavy swing can be a good motivator, but when used too often with newbies, they can wind up dejected and give up on kendo before they really even begin.

I should also note, this is just my experience watching AMERICAN newbies.. I'm quite certain things are probably different in other places in the world.

I like to get in front of heavy hitters occasionally. My sensei is a heavy hitter and it's good to get kabonged every once in a while. It's a reminder that I did something wrong... You might be the king of suriage waza and then you get in front of a kabonger and you find out that your suriage isn't very strong after all.
And the next time you try suriage men, you'll remember to do that waza with authority.

Be safe out there.

[tango]

Why do you expect everyone to have the same kind of disposition as you? Besides, we are not talking about you or other students we have not even met, we are talking about this one kendoka who cant handle a men that he feels is too hard. If he feels he is hit too hard, who are any of you to say that he should just learn to deal with it? Besides, it takes more courage to ask a senior if he could adjust his men than being 'afraid' you'll be disrespectful and not ask.

I agree. We're talking about a shodan here and I've some guys get their shodan and their ego goes right out the roof.

In a case like this, you could do a couple things --- just get crazy on him and start trying to tsuki. Tsuki him everywhere... the tare, the armpit.. being a beginner, you probably won't have a problem actually missing the tsuki itself. Do a lot of do.. whack him in the elbow or the ribs (still not difficult for a beginner to do). Do a yoko men and hit him upside the ear.

I really don't recommend you do that, though, because it's not going to solve the problem. It might make you feel better to get in a little payback, but it'll probably make the problem worse. He'll beat on you even more. He'll seek you out at EVERY practice to do jigeiko.



The senior should have just as much respect for a beginner as a beginner has for the senior.

You're absolutely 100% correct on that. Funny how you will run into some egomaniacs that don't appear to practice that principle.

Good luck and hang tough..

[Neil Gendzwill]

I guess I shouldn't have been so terse before. A shodan player is a beginner. If he's hitting too hard, tell him. He'll probably appreciate the tip. Most people hit hard at the start, get lighter under the close attention of sensei when preparing to wear bogu, then as they get bogu and are able to swing quicker start hitting harder again. By the time they get to nidan, they're hitting like trucks and often not aware of it.

[A P]

By the time they get to nidan, they're hitting like trucks and often not aware of it.


Mannnn!!! I hope I don't meet someone who hit that hard...

Thinking about it already scares me..

But I am still going to go to kendo.

Just a question. Don't the higher rank know that they hit to hard sometime

, or they do, but just don't stop doing it?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sometimes they know, and sometimes they don't. It's a tough thing to get a hold of. When you're a beginner and swinging slowly, it's easier to control where the sword stops (we call this tenouchi). As you get better you swing more quickly with more of an attacking feeling, of course this is more difficult to control. So even if you know about it, you've got some work to do to fix it. This is compounded for bigger guys who tend to be overly muscley in their swings anyways.

At any rate, some feedback helps. Maybe not always from the people junior to the clubber, but definitely from the seniors. "That one was too hard", "that one was good" etc helps him fix it.

[Catherine]

Hi,

I have had a similar experience a long time ago.

It is not easy to refuse to practice with someone in a dojo. I have never seen it done. I think that it would be difficult to refuse to practice with this man, you may come off looking like you are being rude or scared.

I think that speaking with your sensei was the best way to handle the matter.

Good luck.

Catherine

[Hyaku]

Hi,

Last monday a shodan, let's call him K. hit me so hard doing men that I had a headache for 3 days and couldn't attend training. He did that several times during that training though I asked him after the first time to be a bit more careful. I did that very respectful, but...no effect.

Take no notice of some of the other posters. Some people especially kurukuru sound like these stand on the spot pile driver retards anyway. If he doesnt do it with a shinai he certainly does it with his mouth

I experienced this problem a few times in the past. There is always some dips?it piledriver in the dojo even here in Japan. One guy I practiced with actual smashed his shinai on the floor when he missed kote.

I did try to seek a bit of advice. The best I got from one aged teacher was, "Your chudan is weak"

Stands to reason that if you do as Musashi says "Wedge it in there", someone has a hell of a job getting through until you do what you want to do. Once you come off Chudan you are open anyway. I got a nice surprise when my hard hitter came in.... and so did he!

Might not be your particular problem but its worth a try. Dont know what sort of build you are but I have never tried to work round a shinai. Keep strong centre control.

[JSchmidt]

"Might not be your particular problem but its worth a try. Dont know what sort of build you are but I have never tried to work round a shinai. Keep strong centre control."

Ah, I tried that once..similar situation, although with an ikkyu...even the cuts that glanced off the shoulder were painful!...Sure, I let him skewer himself on my shinai, but he still whacked me a couple of inches into the ground.

Jakob

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Somewhere back in the dim and distant past The original poster asked about how to deal with a problem

Its intresting to see what kinds of opinions you get for a simple enough question

Id have gone and asked the sensei what to do - lets him know the problem and gives him or her the opportunity to do something about it

I wonder that in an increasingly litigious world theres the possibility of the sensei leaving himself open to a negligence claim if the student does get badly injured

As for the heavy hitter the problem seemed to be in kihon rather than keiko so id reccomend filtering every men cut - basically block it with enough force to stop 90 - 95% of the power but still allowing the shinai to contact the men

That should tell him hes hiting too hard - especially if you always do it - if he complains that youre stopping his technique then you can tell him why & if he doesnt adjust his technique after that hes a dork (or whatever German phrase fits)

Kendo is tough and you can get hurt but its rare, especially compared to other disciplines, but you are responsible for your own safety so defend yourself.

dont get injured through someone elses lack of ettiquette

Then when you get your shodan you can beat the living daylights out of him and not worry about the sempai / kohai bit ;-))

best of luck

cheers

[lwegerich]

The senior should have just as much respect for a beginner as a beginner has for the senior.

Good point.

Meanwhile I got more information about this shodan guy who is hitting too hard. Went to a tournament for kyus last weekend and had a lot of opportunities to talk to the other dojo guys and our two senseis (both 4th dan).

The senseis told me the following:

1) This guy is a weirdo.
2) They don't really know how he get's his shodon. Probably on a grading offshore
3) When striking men his right foot is 20 inch above the floor, so there is no ki-ken-tai-ichi at all
4) His te-no-uchi is a nightmare
5) He's not really willing to work on these points.
6) Even 1st kyus have difficulties with taking his men stirkes and are pissed. Most of them have problems with him in the way he reacted on their complaints.
7) One sensei literally recommended not to train with him and wished more people of our dojo won't do that. Quote: "If 5 out of 7 won't train with him anymore maybe he realizes that something could be wrong with his waza".

Here's my conclusion:

I won't train with him anymore because of safety reasons. I'll train hard 2-3 times a week and in 3 years I'll beat the shit out of him. This guy woke up my fighting spirit. ;)

End of the story.

[Danny Boy]

SNIP

1) This guy is a weirdo.
2) They don't really know how he get's his shodon. Probably on a grading offshore
3) When striking men his right foot is 20 inch above the floor, so there is no ki-ken-tai-ichi at all
4) His te-no-uchi is a nightmare
5) He's not really willing to work on these points.
6) Even 1st kyus have difficulties with taking his men stirkes and are pissed. Most of them have problems with him in the way he reacted on their complaints.
7) One sensei literally recommended not to train with him and wished more people of our dojo won't do that. Quote: "If 5 out of 7 won't train with him anymore maybe he realizes that something could be wrong with his waza".

SNIP



Tell your senseis to tell him to either fix his problems or quit kendo. Cos kendo doesnt end after you hit sho-dan and if you stop imroving you might as well quit kendo and take up ping-pong or somethin.

[LNGUYEN]

Here's my conclusion:

I won't train with him anymore because of safety reasons. I'll train hard 2-3 times a week and in 3 years I'll beat the shit out of him. This guy woke up my fighting spirit. ;)

End of the story.


I just love your conclusion. That is the spirit

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Good point.

Meanwhile I got more information about this shodan guy who is hitting too hard. Went to a tournament for kyus last weekend and had a lot of opportunities to talk to the other dojo guys and our two senseis (both 4th dan).

The senseis told me the following:

.

As a point of ettiquette I dont think you should have posted that list of this guys alleged faults - no one is perfect & whilst its ok to be careful of someone whos 'brutal' It really isnt good form to post that kind of content without the guy knowing

If I were the sensei & i found out that comments made in private had been posted to the whole world id be really pissed off

besides - he isnt a lost cause yet - he could and might well learn better

cheers

[A P]

As a point of ettiquette I dont think you should have posted that list of this guys alleged faults - no one is perfect & whilst its ok to be careful of someone whos 'brutal' It really isnt good form to post that kind of content without the guy knowing

If I were the sensei & i found out that comments made in private had been posted to the whole world id be really pissed off

besides - he isnt a lost cause yet - he could and might well learn better

cheers

Mannnnnn, You are way to easyyyyyyyy. I would exspect more of a punishment

than that. Nobody is perfect and I agree with you all the way, but come on

that guy should have know that he is hitting to hard by now because of all the

complain by other students. I think that he is just to lazy to clean up his

act. We shouldn't be treating him like a wine glass.

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Mannnnnn, You are way to easyyyyyyyy. .


You want to tell that one to SJP - hell have a laugh ;-)



I would exspect more of a punishment

than that. Nobody is perfect and I agree with you all the way, but come on

that guy should have know that he is hitting to hard by now because of all the

complain by other students. I think that he is just to lazy to clean up his

act. We shouldn't be treating him like a wine glass
.

So what would you do then ?

The original tone of this thread was 'guys i have a problem how do i deal with it ?'
a lot of good suggestions and a lot of crap have followed

what im trying to say here is that Ive never practised with him so dont know exactly what to do - but there are humane ways to deal with the situation - & a lot falls to the dojo leaders. I think they ought to act but its their dojo and how they run it is up to them

How lars deals with it is a personal decision and getting support from the board is a good thing

Trashing the guy in public ( and the tone has gotten nasty) without him knowing or being able to respond is unfair & posting private comments made by your senseis about a student is out of order in my opinion (FWIW)

Running a dojo is hard work and i have symptahy with the leaders because if someone makes shodan it does show commitment if not the skill and grace of a gazelle.

But still has a problem and it would be considred rude to deck the guy for being too violent - so whats the best practical way to deal with it ? - Lars defends himself - simple.

That doesnt need an in depth anaysis of someones perceived personality faults on a forum

rant mode off ;-)

cheers

[elfboy]

Running a dojo is hard work and i have symptahy with the leaders because if someone makes shodan it does show commitment if not the skill and grace of a gazelle.

But still has a problem and it would be considred rude to deck the guy for being too violent - so whats the best practical way to deal with it ? - Lars defends himself - simple.

cheers

Here here! I totally agree, and I totally relate to what lwegerich must be feeling like... here's my spin on things though. During practice one night one of the 3 dans hit me so hard that not only did I feel the brunt of the blow but I also saw nothing but pure white for a second or two. It was the strangest feeling, but then after discussing the incident with a friend, I found out that my optic nerve must have been knocked around from the blow and that would cause my pupil to dialate, letting all the light in at once and making things white (kinda like when you turn the iris up all the way to increase exposure on a camera)... anybody ever had this before? What in the world is going on?

[lwegerich]

Here here! I totally agree, and I totally relate to what lwegerich must be feeling like... here's my spin on things though. During practice one night one of the 3 dans hit me so hard that not only did I feel the brunt of the blow but I also saw nothing but pure white for a second or two. It was the strangest feeling, but then after discussing the incident with a friend, I found out that my optic nerve must have been knocked around from the blow and that would cause my pupil to dialate, letting all the light in at once and making things white (kinda like when you turn the iris up all the way to increase exposure on a camera)... anybody ever had this before? What in the world is going on?

Following the ideas of some of the posters in this thread I'd say:

Be thankful for that experience. Others have to buy expensive drugs for it.

;)

[lwegerich]

As a point of ettiquette I dont think you should have posted that list of this guys alleged faults

I thought quite a while whether I should post his "faults" or not. Considering myself a responsible person I cite Karl Raimund Popper (1902-1994), a famous philosopher:

"We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."
- The Open Society and Its Enemies (ch. 7)

In my words: Why should I respect the honor of someone who's not respecting my health?

[Hyaku]

Well I for one got no help from my head sensei at that particular time. The second in command was the one who laughed and said work on your chudan.
I should mention that both teachers had learned from Oasa Yuji (Judan) and are carrying on his tradition.

We have had a few cases when some guy with a peacock syndrome turns up and a few visiting other dojos. My injuries range from turning purple to having had a mouth full of blood from a hard tsuki from riot squad "friend"

Personaly I am not much on the "grin and bear it" attitude. I was aready black and purple and got to practice with my "punisher" the day before I was taking shodan shiken, not wishing to miss my grading through injury I dealt with him!

I am the dojo's tai atari wall for crash dummies. Equally my tai atari are something like sumo oshidashi. So a simple men tai atari launches the opponent like a space shuttle if I lay it on. When I said your chudan should be strong I didnt mean to place it politely on the pad! A little to the right or left discourages pile driver behaviour. I watched in amusement once as on ZNKR delegate dealt with someone with a nasty smack on the men over the ears on both sides.

But best of all is Fujii Okimitsu Sensei of European Kendo fame. He once hit me on the arm slightly above the kote, immediatly dropped into sonkyo and bowed off. He said he was ashamed to have done such a thing. That to me is "Kendo". Save the nasty stuff for the time you may get attacked in the street.

[A P]

But best of all is Fujii Okimitsu Sensei of European Kendo fame. He once hit me on the arm slightly above the kote, immediatly dropped into sonkyo and bowed off. He said he was ashamed to have done such a thing. That to me is "Kendo". Save the nasty stuff for the time you may get attacked in the street.

I agree with Hayku " Save the nasty stuff for the street fight. "

Well said

[PhilMcLaughlin]

I thought quite a while whether I should post his "faults" or not. Considering myself a responsible person I cite Karl Raimund Popper (1902-1994), a famous philosopher:

"We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."
- The Open Society and Its Enemies (ch. 7)

In my words: Why should I respect the honor of someone who's not respecting my health?


Well, I think you made your point in your early posts so this was overkill and not necessary

Besides - if you are going to post opinions like that why shouldnt people call you a whiner and tell you to stop complaining and put up with the situation ? (as some have done)

Consider the postion youve put your seniors in now - If i was your dojo leader I would no longer be prepared to tell you anything in confidence so in fact I think you have gone from getting positive support (good) to being indiscreet (bad)

I dont think you have to respect the honour of the other guy if you think its personalv- just learn to cope in a positive way

cheers

[LadyGinevra73]

...hum recently i've had the same problem of lwegerich, i'm 2nd kyu and during a stage i made some exercise of men with a 3°DAN, he was very brutal and even he has verbally insulted me.
I did not reply for respect of the Sensei whom the stage was leading but I have remained very disappointed from this experience.
After some days my Sensei has informed me about having seen everything and the person at issue is very much negative, but i should have found the way to face the situation, because kendo is not only for intelligent people but there are also impolite people..
Sincerely I do not know yet what I will do the next time i'll meet him...I'm a bit confused