got beaten to a pulp

[decembersnow6]

i was practicing with one of my sempei yesterday....man, i got destroyed...... he seems to be a very defensive player so i ended up having to make the first move everytime, yet as soon as i lift my shinai up to attack, he will somehow hit men blindingly fast...... what are some of your opening (or faking) moves? i usually go with a men or a small kote but that doesn't seem to work.... any help would be appreciated, thanx!

[park]

i don't know if i am the right person to answer this question... but here it goes..being a 16 yr old teenager, i get fried quiet often too by older more experience people, as for faking, i really dont recommend those "windshield" stuff where you'd fake a move, destroying your kamae hoping to confuse your opponent, it only works on like newbies, as in your situation, you might get fried... as for small kote's, its kind of hard to get a point from that...hmm.. if he's a defensive player, i'd reccomend you try to let him make the first move and try to find the opening from that.. a do is really good if you can get in the person, or try to imitate the move he makes once you give him the first move if you can move a bit faster then you should be able to hit him first, but kamae is important, if ur kamae breaks because you try to move faster than he was, then you'd lose again.. well i hope that helped.. cuz i dont think it did :(

ps. if you are like me, lacking experience, rely heavily on your youthfulness, height and speed and experience will come eventually

oh and last thing, try not to block, that always leaves you open for another attack

[Chook]

What I like to concentrate on is a point brought up by Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings, where we talks about rythym.

If you can break your opponent's rythym, you're in the best position to attack. If I'm up against a defensive player, I will wait for him to crack first - then I know their position.

Such a thought earned me a beautiful strike against my dojo steward last Tuesday... he eventually got tired of waiting, went for a men cut - I saw it coming and all I did was the footwork of hiya-suburi coupled with a large men cut... clean, perfect cut, completely unopposed and was so simple to claim. :) :)

Damn I was proud :)

So I guess, just be patient. Never aim to trick somebody, aim to cut.

[Charlie]

Hard to say without seeing you both perform but perhaps he (was it a guy?) is just way faster than you at this point. But don't worry, you will catch up.

[Hai_hai]

What I like to concentrate on is a point brought up by Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings, where we talks about rythym.

If you can break your opponent's rythym, you're in the best position to attack. If I'm up against a defensive player, I will wait for him to crack first - then I know their position.

Such a thought earned me a beautiful strike against my dojo steward last Tuesday... he eventually got tired of waiting, went for a men cut - I saw it coming and all I did was the footwork of hiya-suburi coupled with a large men cut... clean, perfect cut, completely unopposed and was so simple to claim. :) :)

Damn I was proud :)

So I guess, just be patient. Never aim to trick somebody, aim to cut.

It's rhythm.

[xvikingx]

i was practicing with one of my sempei yesterday....man, i got destroyed...... he seems to be a very defensive player so i ended up having to make the first move everytime, yet as soon as i lift my shinai up to attack, he will somehow hit men blindingly fast...... what are some of your opening (or faking) moves? i usually go with a men or a small kote but that doesn't seem to work.... any help would be appreciated, thanx!

Don't worry about and just keep trying. Kenshi with experience will read you like an open book. Don't get discouraged.

[Sir Percy]

i was practicing with one of my sempei yesterday....man, i got destroyed...... he seems to be a very defensive player so i ended up having to make the first move everytime, yet as soon as i lift my shinai up to attack, he will somehow hit men blindingly fast...... what are some of your opening (or faking) moves? i usually go with a men or a small kote but that doesn't seem to work.... any help would be appreciated, thanx!

In addition to practice I found this book to be helpful since it intellectualizes what one understands emotionally, that you have to win the battle of the kensens before you can attack.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570629986/qid=1068052316/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-5803546-7140740?v=glance&s=books

See also the current article by Hanshi Harada Genji listed on the website about using your opponent's ki.

[chidokan]

the idea is to encourage you to attack and learn from your mistakes. if for instance your first attack is ALWAYS to kote, and you dip the kissaki as you move, the senior will knock the shinai down, and maybe hit you as well. eventually you stop doing it (depending how quick on the uptake you are!!) Eventually you learn how to attack without being cut. Just keep at it, eventually you'll start to hit him now and again on your first attack. If the counter is always the same, he is trying to point something out. Ask him what you are doing wrong at the ennd of the practise. It is very unusual for seniors to repeatedly practise one cut against a beginner....

[Twobitmage]

I've only worn full bogu for mebbe a month or two and Im getting beaten up too so dont feel bad :D

On that rhythim thing I do notice sometimes that happening to the older practitioners. They mistakenly do something and hesistate to attack, or whateverm. (if thats a good example anyway)

[rin-chan]

i was practicing with one of my sempei yesterday....man, i got destroyed...... he seems to be a very defensive player so i ended up having to make the first move everytime, yet as soon as i lift my shinai up to attack, he will somehow hit men blindingly fast...... what are some of your opening (or faking) moves? i usually go with a men or a small kote but that doesn't seem to work.... any help would be appreciated, thanx!
one waza i use when i fight a defensive person is that i press down on the opponents shinai and so they think i am going for men. WHen they block for men the do is usually open and you can get that.

[Will]

You're all wrong. I'm sorry, but at least from my experience, you won't improve by faking. If you watch the really high level up senseis that compete, they don't fake.
Let's look at what we got. You're playing a faster, better, more experienced kendoka. There is no way you can win. Tough luck, but that's the truth. He knows that there is no way you can win. That means, just do your best and proper form kendo. He's playing defensive for a reason, because he's waiting for you. He's receiving for you. If he went ALL out on you, you'd be completely obliterated. You might not believe it, but he's probably toying with you. He's hitting you every time, simply because he's better. Don't let it get you down, he's been doing it longer than you.
So what do you have to do? You have to do your best Kendo, don't worry about fakes and concentrate on form. If you don't worry about getting hit, you improve a lot faster because your mind is free from distractions. All these strategies the people on this forum are telling you, are useless if this person is better than you. You shouldn't need to use strategies or fakes. Just do straight kendo, just do your best. If you fake, you're not getting anything out of your attack. Why block too? If you have enough time to block ,you have enough time to attack. You trying to hard too beat your opponent, when it's impossible to do. Just focus on your fundamentals and cleana strikes and eventually, everything will begin to fall into place. His "blinding speed" will seem a lot slower, and his amazing technique will seem a lot more ordinary.
I'm sure most experienced kendoka would agree.

[Halcyon]

You have to do your best Kendo, don't worry about fakes and concentrate on form. If you don't worry about getting hit, you improve a lot faster because your mind is free from distractions.
i agree with will. even though it might be frustrating at first not to be able to hit a sempai's targets, if you go down the path of 'tricky' kendo -- with a lot of fakes, blocks and stepping back -- you will eventually have to unlearn those bad habits. when you're a beginner practicing with your sempai, and especially your sensei, you really shouldn't be waiting for them to attack first. go ahead and exhaust yourself. sometimes your best hits happen when you think your fuel tank is empty.

the way that experienced kenshi induce the opponent to attack is not by 'faking' per se, but to apply a strong seme. on an elementary level, seme is a slight forward movement that threatens the opponent's center. it's quite a bit more subtle than pushing the opponent's shinai down, because doing that will expose your own center. on a more advanced level, seme can be a lot more subtle, including ki-seme, where you're trying to project your ki, or energy, to threaten your opponent. admittedly, still working on all this myself.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You're all wrong. [snip the rest]
Good points Will, but nearly every other reply concurred with them in one way or the other. So they're all wrong how?

[Will]

Good points Will, but nearly every other reply concurred with them in one way or the other. So they're all wrong how?

I don't know, I didn't even read their posts...but they're still all wrong.

[canadasword]

Hi! Been there and know how it feels. Here's some humble advice based on experience of losing many times myself.


he seems to be a very defensive player so i ended up having to make the first move everytimeIn other words, he dictated the fight and you have accepted the conditions. You shouldn't feel the need to attack. You've played into his hands.


yet as soon as i lift my shinai up to attack, he will somehow hit men blindingly fast......Yes, because he has been setting you up to do it and has just been sitting back, waiting for you to lift that shinai. Elementary, dear Watson.


what are some of your opening (or faking) moves?As others have said, fakes are unlikely to help you here. You can always get lucky though but I wouldn't count on it.
Best advice: think carefully about how to fight, not tricky moves. To use an analogy, think of a boxing fight. Against an opponent with a longer reach (who likes to fight from a distance), you have to fight inside. Against an inside fighter, you have to use distance. Against a speedy fighter, you have to negate that speed somehow. You cannot allow him to dictate the terms of the fight. You say he's defensive, you could try to wait him out. If you are not good at defense, this may not be a good idea. If he likes to sit in chudan, agitate him to make him move. Here some experienced players use jodan to make the opponent react. You have to make him "move" out of what he's comfortable with. Watch some kendo tournament videos, you'll see what I mean.



i usually go with a men or a small kote but that doesn't seem to work
They will work but has to be applied correctly at the right time and with the right "preparation".

You say he hits you as soon as you lift that shinai, you can use tsuki. But probably you need to "prepare" your attack more, not come in naked. Use some of these techniques or if you don't know them, get your teacher to teach you these: katsugi-waza, harai-waza, hiki-waza, uchi-otoshi, suriage. They are not tricky moves. You must make him guess what you will do. Right now, it appears that he doesn't have to do any work because he knows exactly what you are going to do. Maybe you need more variety: learn to hit the do (waist). Example: make him think you're going high (men), then go low (do). Or make him think you're going to hit kote, but instead you hit men (hiki-waza are good for these).
Sometimes, you should come into attack. Other times, sit back and wait. Or since he likes to strike men, crunch him and get entangled in tsuba-zeriai, then take him out. You must negate his strengths.
If you're really good, tempt him to attack by subtly opening your kote and see if he'll take the bait. Or relax the chudan and tempt him to strike the men. When he takes the bait, strike do. If you can see what I mean, it is not about tricky moves. It is about psyching the opponent out and not letting him control the fight. You control the fight or you will lose everytime.
Good Luck!:wink:

[OSatsu Jin]

I am a beginner in Kendo...but this seems to be the same problem I encounter in Aikido. I am a shodan, but when doing randori with a more senior belt I have to get the winning idea out of my head. For the very simple reason that when I want to win....all the basics go out the window and I get got everytime. Now when I am patient and just go with whatever comes out of it....that's when an opportunity will usually present itself and it will just happen.

So....I say...don't try to win. Practice basic principles...maintain good kamae and footwork...and eventually an opening will just happen and you will score. If you try to force it to happen...you will get beat down everytime. Be patient.

Just my .02

John

[ctan]

Well, I'm not personally qualified to give you advice, so here's my sensei's words instead! :) He tells me that when you're facing someone better than you, you should approach the situation with "mushin". By this, (he's pretty cryptic sometimes, so I do have to interpret things a little) I think he means that you should simply not worry about winning or losing, getting the point or not getting the point, getting hit or poked or countered, etc etc, but instead, you should just assert the best pressure (seme) you can, look as best as you can for an opening, and then carry out the attack with total commitment. And then move on to the next attempt and do your best yet again with that attempt regardless of the outcome of the first try.

Personally, during jigeiko, I kind of pre-determine beforehand what techniques I'll practise (typically, men, de-kote, and kote-men), and I'll exclusively practise those techniques. So, I don't bother with tsuba-zeriai, hiki waza, etc; I just break away as best as I can and if the opponent scores a hiki waza off me, good for him/her. I've found that this advice from my sensei has really helped me improve. Hope you find it useful too.

[takashijarosu]

humm very very interesting what rank are you two... if you are bolth kyuu i will be one to say that you bolth are getting 45% great training and have 55% great spirit for kendo. if you are a higher rank then well you know.

but you bolth have a great outlook on your kendo. it is easy to get discouraged during ji geiko with a dan, but it is hard to maintain a clear mind and good kamae. you bolth have this that mind set will take you far but do remember pratice waza regardless its great training and needed.

[taiwnezboi]

if you're a beginner and if he's much higher-ranking / practiced much longer than you then just attack and keep attacking (but with good form).. beginners should just attack, not sit there and "wait it out".. that messes up the whole point of free sparring