Kendo Nitou Ryu

[MaxHanzo]

Hi,

I´m new here, so, before I begin to write my message, I'd like to briefly introduce myself.
My name is Max Hiroyuki Ueda, I'm a kenshi from Brazil, I've been practicing kendo for about 12 years, and I hold the gradution of shodan. It's nice to see that we have this forum to share our knowledge with many kenshi's around the world!

As you read the subject of this thread, I have many doubts regarding Kendo Nitou Ryu. As I became very interested on begining this fascinating kendo style, I bought the book written by Nitousai Arazeki(Arazeki Nitousai, Nitouryu No Narai Kata), which regards many interesting techniques, shows a lot of amazing photos, tells some story of Arazeki shihan and some passages that seems to be from an Okuden. I still have not read the book yet, all I did was to read some passages quickly and look at the pictures, and become amazed with the techniques, kamae stances, and the high level the author of this book seems to have, I find his stances awesome!

Thus, I have some doubts regarding the author, some of the techniques, the Niten Ichi Ryu linneage and the position of Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei(ZNKR, or, in English, All Japan Kendo Federation) regarding Nitou Ryu.

First of all, about the author, Nitousai Arazeki(Arazeki Nitousai). I read in the book that he had practiced Shinmen Nitou Ryu with Igarashi Ichitaka. My doubt is, what is "Shinmen Nitou Ryu"? I have not found anything at the net about that style. There is a picture of this master, he´s wielding the daisho pair of shinai and wearing bogu.

The author had also received Menkyo Kaiden from the 15th Sôke of Hyouhou Niten Ichi Ryu, Noriyuki Matsunaga. What I have not understood the relationship between Matsunaga sensei and Hyouhou Niten Ichi Ryu, because, the few things I know about the nowadays Hyouhou Niten Ichi Ryu is that Masayuki Imai sensei is the 10th sôke(I have no other resources avaliable than the Internet Searching). Could anyone explain me that? Are there more than one linneage of this Kouryu? I'm very sorry about my ignorance on this and my lack of nihongo...

About the author again, I have not found anything in the book regarding his graduation in kendo. Is anyone aware of Arazeki Shihan's graduation in kendo?
I couldn't find anything on the net...

And, what is exactly Musashi-kai? A Kendo dojo, Kendo Nitou Ryu dojo, Hyouhou Niten Ichi Ryu dojo, or all of the above?


Now, the part that envolves kendo. In this book, I've seen many different kamae stances. Those who really catches in the eye are daitou-shotou jodan, chuudan, zangetsu(nokori tsuki), kasumi and juuji. Can those kamae stances
be used freely in the kendo context? I mean, if I use Nitou Ryu in a kendo shiai/taikai and do some of this stances, will any shinpan call me and make me stop?

Well, the last part(finally), regarding the position of ZNKR. As I know, they have stated many rules for the uses of Nitou Ryu. Those I can remember, were about shinai nagasa(length), shinai weight, some limitations of the uses of kodachi(kodachi cannot be used to strike the oponent directly, in other words, an ippon will not be valid if it's made with kodachi.). What else can be said about the rules stated by the ZNKR?

Again, I'd like to say I'm sorry for the questions in the case they sound too "shoshinsha style of questions". As we don't see many Nitou-Ryu kenshis in Brazil(there are 4, which 3 of them are active and one is a hachidan, Sakamoto sensei, who has lost his sight due to advanced age), I simply have no references for this questions(all of those kenshis are inaccessible by the Internet and I live far away from where they practice kendo) and my Nihongo is not that accurate to find those answers by myself. Thanks everybody for the cooperation and for the patience!

Cheers,

Max

[Rawoo]

lol it's funny just a couple of weeks ago I started finding information about nitto ryu, from what I have read, I totally agree with you, it's very fascinating.
One of the things I didnt understand was the difference between holding the daito with the right hand left foot in front and holding the daito with left hand right foot in front, in all the pictures I found about Mr. Miyamoto he always holds the daito on his right hand but nowdays most nitto players hold daito using the left hand
HHMMMMMMM...... fascinating!
also I have a knowledge that Mr. Miyamoto was inspired by some traditional Japanese drumming to create Nitto ichi ryu or Niten or whatever,
this also fascinates me.

sorry for not being a great help but I have the same feelings as you have toward nitto ryu, it's very fascinating.
:ditsy:
here are some website I found:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/Niten.htm

http://www.geocities.com/georgemccall/ken.html

[MaxHanzo]

About the way daisho is wielded, you can wield daitou in left hand(gyaku nitou) or in the right hand. The same occurs with the position of the feet, you can either have your feet positioned with the left foot in front on the right foot or the normal way we use in Ittou Kendo. I'm based on what Mr. Matthew Raymond(Godan) teaches in his video about Nitou Ryu(E-Bogu), and the site of Mr. Ishii(http://www6.vc-net.ne.jp/%7Eisiyosi/). Mr. Ishii's web site also tells that the drawings Miyamoto Musashi did in the Okuden always mention that the daitou is wielded with the right hand, according to Mr. Ishii's words, "perhaps because it's more natural to the majority of the people to use the right hand the stance Musashi adopted is Daitou in the right hand". It would sound reasonable if I wasn't left handed :) .

Although I know this things, I still haven't began to practice Nitou Ryu, because I'm going to apply the Nidan Shiken at the beginning of the next year, so, I have to practice well the Ittou way.

[JSchmidt]

With the daito in the left hand, you can cut kote, something which isn't (realisticly) available if you have the daito in the right hand.

Jakob

[Rawoo]

good points
kote is definitely a easier target that way

[Hyaku]

Hello rawoo

You could have looked here too.

http://www.sword.shorturl.com

I can't help notice people mention holding weapons in certain hands? People keep making this Musashi connection, but has over 350 years produced nothing more than holding a weapon?

The grip in Hyoho Niten Ichiryu Kenjutsu Nito waza bears no resemblence whatsoever to holding a shinai. Even if this was possible are kendoka to start cutting into the neck, under the wrists and thrusting up under the men?

Things like go sen no sen and sen sen no sen might be viable in Kendo but were against the philosophy of Musashi.

The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the
application of the principles of the Japanese sword.

Musashi's concept was, “Since we are born and live on this earth we should face God and give birth to children and increase the human race and make everybody happy. In order to do this we have to face the unavoidable and our fatality".

His ideal was "To learn the sword we must learn then heart. Learn the heart and you will never need to pick up a sword!

It would give Nito Kendo a lot more respect if people were to stop associating it with Musashi.

[Rawoo]

Hmmmmmm......
Yes yes
Because I am not a nitto player so I might have asked some stupid uestions.
I am just very interested in this particular style.
And ur website is particularly helpful thank you very much.

[MaxHanzo]

With the daito in the left hand, you can cut kote, something which isn't (realisticly) available if you have the daito in the right hand.

Jakob

Actually both kote can be hit, even with ittou. In other words, we can hit both hidari kote and migi kote. It´s not something people do everyday, but, it´s datotsu(valid ippon). This is more common to see hidari kote being hit when someone does jodan no kamae, try to hit katate men/kote/do and as a counter, the other kote can be hit(the hand which the shinai is not held).

Mr. Colin, I didn´t know you used to write in this forum!
Thanks for answering my doubts about Kendo Nitou-ryu!

Max

[MaxHanzo]

It would give Nito Kendo a lot more respect if people were to stop associating it with Musashi.

I don't think the associaction with Musashi occurs only with Kendo Nitou-Ryu. I believe that lots of people try to use Miyamoto Musashi's philosophy and theories to all kinds of kendo, bugei, or other arts.

I haven't read the Gorin No Sho yet, so, I cannot tell you that I am one of those people. But, I can say for sure that that I try to build my own kendo(when I say "my own kendo" I mean, my way of practicing kendo, and not that I'm trying to create a new style) by the things that makes sense to me. The few passages on the book of Eiji Yoshikawa that are based on Musashi's way of life sounds reasonable enough to me, and those few things I've learnt I try to make a part of my kendo. "Ware koto ni oki koukaisezu"(I will not do anything I may be regreted) quote is an example.

So, I think that being a kensai makes Musashi a reference to all kinds of ken(sword) related bugei(martial arts), not only with Kendo Nitou-Ryu. I know that it's a big mistake to associate directly kendo with kenjutsu, eventhough kendo is based on kenjutsu, but, where is the error of trying to use some kenjutsu techniques and theories to build our own kendo by obeying the specifications made by ZNKR or IKF?

[Hyaku]

I don't think the associaction with Musashi occurs only with Kendo Nitou-Ryu. I believe that lots of people try to use Miyamoto Musashi's philosophy and theories to all kinds of kendo, bugei, or other arts.

I haven't read the Gorin No Sho yet.......................

I suggest you read it a few times then think again. And read my post again.
I already wrote that ZNKR concepts and his were different.

I will try and simplify for you. Zen Ken Ren says, "Pick up your swords learn and be a better person".

Musashi says, "Sometimes we have to pick up swords and fight for the peace of your country. At that time if they show an intent to harm you, Kill them! Apart from that stay at home, make lots of babies, pray to god and look after those around you.

If you think Musashi meant something else, read Gorin no Sho.

Sadly you cant grab a bit from here and there. You can't even go from one teacher to another who does the same style unless you like "Champon". Iwata Sensei has a real good laugh when he sees. "A" sensei's Nukitsuke, "B" Sensei's Nukitsuke and "Z" sensei's Chiburui plus a bit of you own stuff thrown in.

Learning means a devotion to ones teacher and the founder.

Please dont quote Yoshikawa Eiji. Its fiction.

Hyaku

[Hyaku]

Sorry "B" s Kiritsuke.

Hyaku

[JSchmidt]

Actually both kote can be hit, even with ittou. In other words, we can hit both hidari kote and migi kote. It´s not something people do everyday, but, it´s datotsu(valid ippon).
Erhh,,no it's not a valid ippon. Hidari kote is only valid on people not in seigan.
Read the ZNKR rules.

Jakob

[Rawoo]

LOL!!
Hyaku u r very funny
I have been reading your post lots of times

[MaxHanzo]

Erhh,,no it's not a valid ippon. Hidari kote is only valid on people not in seigan.
Read the ZNKR rules.

Jakob

Oh, really?
I think I'll have to stop hitting people's hidari kote then...
About the ZNKR Shinpan Kisoku, well, I always try to read, but, it's a long text and I always end up on skimming and skippin a lot of parts.

Thank you!

[MaxHanzo]

I suggest you read it a few times then think again. And read my post again.
I already wrote that ZNKR concepts and his were different.

I will try and simplify for you. Zen Ken Ren says, "Pick up your swords learn and be a better person".

Musashi says, "Sometimes we have to pick up swords and fight for the peace of your country. At that time if they show an intent to harm you, Kill them! Apart from that stay at home, make lots of babies, pray to god and look after those around you.

If you think Musashi meant something else, read Gorin no Sho.


I am aware of ZNKR statements regarding the objectives of kendo, my sensei make us remember every time we begin our keiko.

I understand perfectly that, the context of the days Musashi wrote this words
is completely different from nowadays. Nowadays we can't defend our homes, our countries with our daisho, or, whatever we have in our hands that ressembles a katana.

What I tried to say is that many people try to assimilate some of Musashi's philosophy to their way of practicing kendo. I have not read the original Gorin No Sho, in Nihongo, instead, I have read a really bad translation in Portuguese that came from a really bad translation in English. But,among the things that made sense to me, I believe that they were not corrupted by the barriers between those languages. For example, the flexibility and fluidity of water, about doing the movements naturally, etc. This we can assimilate to whatever we do in our lives.

Because of my bad English you may misunderstood what I tried to say, and I may have misunderstood what you tried to say. And I'm sorry about that.




Please dont quote Yoshikawa Eiji. Its fiction.

Hyaku

I am aware of that. But, the saying I've quoted really exists(Ware koto ni oite koukaisezu), and live in the heart of Japanese people. I don't know if Musashi really said and registered that, and I don't wish to discuss it.

Again, I'd like to apologize if I'm being rude to you. All I'm trying is to show my way of understanding the many philosophies inside the various ways of the sword. And, I may be wrong, because I'm just an immature shodan, and what I understand about kendo might be completely wrong.


Max

[Hyaku]

I am aware of ZNKR statements regarding the objectives of kendo, my sensei make us remember every time we begin our keiko.

I understand perfectly that, the context of the days Musashi wrote this words
is completely different from nowadays. Nowadays we can't defend our homes, our countries with our daisho, or, whatever we have in our hands that ressembles a katana. Max

I said sword but Musashi was talking about weapons in general. He had seen speed of musket balls and had envisioned a constant change of tactics to keep up with the times.


Again, I'd like to apologize if I'm being rude to you. All I'm trying is to show my way of understanding the many philosophies inside the various ways of the sword. And, I may be wrong, because I'm just an immature shodan, and what I understand about kendo might be completely wrong.Max

No apologies required. The present Soke himself near ninety is still learning and passes on the knowledge that I try to share. He himself still runs a Kendo Dojo at the same place as he teaches Kenjutsu. He most point out the subtle differences rather than make comparisons. He along wholeheartedly with, "Ware koto ni oite koukaisezu". He says that a lot of Japanese identify with spirit of Musashi, even if it were a fictional work. He says that this ideal is for the world and it a pity a few more countries don't follow it.