New type of Men

[nonamehandle]

Hold onto your breeches and think a little before you guys start foaming in the mouth :)

A new type of men has been introduced in the most recent Korean SBS Kumdo Tourney, which is the(?) premier kumdo tournament here in korea. Thought that you guys might want to know about developments in the kendo/kumdo world beyond that of Japan.

New men1 (http://cyimg22.cyworld.com/common/file_down.asp?redirect=%2F220019%2F2008%2F3%2F15%2 F18%2F2008030401744%5F0%2Ejpg)

Some of the stated pluses of the new men is that it is lighter than the old style, significantly reduces shock from strikes, easier and faster to put on because you have a strap instead of himos, and the inner lining can be removed so that it can be washed.

I have never worn it so cannot tell you any personal experience. I knew that they were working on a new men for a while and have heard it being tested before (in the same SBS tourney last year), but apparently this version is much better and looks significantly different. As for the general kumdo populace here in korea, the reaction is skeptical, but the new men has just been shown to the public, so more time will tell. But I cannot imagine the general populace rushing to buy it or wear it.

However, it should be noted that Korean Kumdo Association is backing this new men; they have mentioned of first introducing it to kids and expanding it to the wider populace in stages. They can "force" people to use this men by making it a requirement for KKA sanctioned tourney and for any gradings (which is what they did to implement the no back plated hakama policy). It still remains to be seen what the reaction of adults would be...

New Men2 (http://cyimg22.cyworld.com/common/file_down.asp?redirect=%2F220029%2F2008%2F3%2F15%2 F99%2F2008sbs%25EA%25B2%2580%25EB%258F%2584%25EC%2 599%2595%5F%25EC%258B%25A0%25ED%2598%2595%25ED%259 8%25B8%25EB%25A9%25B4%5F4%2Ejpg)
New Men3 (http://cyimg22.cyworld.com/common/file_down.asp?redirect=%2F220018%2F2008%2F3%2F15%2 F19%2F2008sbs%25EA%25B2%2580%25EB%258F%2584%25EC%2 599%2595%5F%25EC%258B%25A0%25ED%2598%2595%25ED%259 8%25B8%25EB%25A9%25B4%5F1%2Ejpg)
New Men4 (http://cyimg22.cyworld.com/common/file_down.asp?redirect=%2F220039%2F2008%2F3%2F15%2 F17%2F2008sbs%25EA%25B2%2580%25EB%258F%2584%25EC%2 599%2595%5F%25EC%258B%25A0%25ED%2598%2595%25ED%259 8%25B8%25EB%25A9%25B4%5F2%2Ejpg)

I really do not have real experience to have a valuable opinion on the actual function of this men (as I am sure that none of you reading this would as well), it might be lighter but than it might not be as durable, it might hurt the shinai, etc. etc. But as I said, I do not have any good info other than what has been reported on the news. My gut reaction is that it looks silly, but that is because it is different from what I am used to. I can imagine kids liking it and some of the younger kenshis here (e.g. looking for red bogu, looking to do hiki-tsuki gyaku do waza combination kyu grades, etc.) but then there are even young and beginning kenshis who are die-hard Japanophiles whom I would assume would rant against it just because it is not Japanese.


I would love to see Kendo World do an article on this :>.


P.S. KKA also implemented a new system of having time limits on ensho at this tournament as well...but topic for another thread.

[EBP2K2]

can't see the pics

[turboyoshi]

Yeah we get an image of some anime chick with a bunch of korean writing, probably error messages telling you you can't link directly to the images?

There was a a link on youtube with a demo using a new type of men that kinda looked like an Alien head. Was it that? or maybe something like this? (http://flvs.daum.net/flvPlayer.swf?vid=luSuhHxN5Mg$)
Looks kinda like the front half of american football helmets.

I dunno about these kinds of changes though. I hate breaking tradition without a good reason. Are injuries common enough or serious enough that we really need a new men design?

sean

[herozs]

no need to break tradition plus the REAL men looks awesome.

[mononokifool]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pfoNFXnN7zQ is it like that? i couldnt watch the vid either but i think they are ugly, and i honestly dont think it needs to be turned into a sport anymore than it is. There needs to be some pain in it:ko:. if we make it too easy who knows who will start. Looks like its on the way to being an Olympic sport

[nonamehandle]

new men1 (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20080304017440pq9.jpg)
new men2 (http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99dm3.jpg)
new men3 (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99sn2.jpg)
new men4 (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99ml9.jpg)


hope these work, sorry bout the links on the first posts...worked for me, so thought...


Turboyoshi,
no not the same, also different federation and very different kendo/kumdo

Mononokifool,
not the same men, but this is the men that i saw before (which i mentioned in the fist post). the new men is an advancement from what you posted.


these new men significantly reduces shock, so esp. enticing to korean moms who want to be assured that doing kendo/kumdo will not make their kids become dumb :)

[mononokifool]

well they deffinatly look sporty and could see why beginners would like it. Ill stick to my good ole fashion men though

[Kagerou]

I think they're hideous, and they look like they'd be really hot.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Jiyoui]

I think kendo equipment has reached the point of tradition and not about effectiveness.
Like kagerou said, there's nothing really wrong with the current men. It's nice to know you've been hit. Dampening the blow, I think, would have a negative effect.

[Berserker]

I think they're hideous, and they look like they'd be really hot.


I second that opinion...:D

[Fonsz]

I have to agree that it looks really weird and ugly. Was this a prototype because I can imagine if you make it look more like a regular men then there might be a market for it.
What's it made of by the way? Is it all plastic?:confused:

[ghostdancer]

Personally cant see nothing wrong with the current Men

I think these are fecking ugly, that aside

I think they are an accident waiting to happen, from the looks of them they are of hard plastic construction riveted together
how much hard practice will it take before the inevitable happens and you get stressing between the two materials ? and one of the materials WILL fail and someone gets hurt big time

Men are made in the way they are for a reason and it works !

these look like an VFX supervisors idea of a future kendo Bogu for a scfi film

Hate to say this but they look like TK armour, probably quite expensive but nice and bright, attracts kids etc if it work kudos to them

but dont think ill be wearing one anytime soon !!

[soulesschild]

Those..are......so......UGLY.

Maybe good as a cheap beginners set?

[shred_lord]

My wife reckons they look as if they are expecting to be hit by a tank! :D

[Massimo]

mmm Korea?

[Kenshi]

Somebody wants to make some money.

[Inner_Silence]

in my humble opinion I thik that, kendo gear can be improved, there are many things that I personally dont like about the standard bogu, like the tsuki protection, and men padding. I think that the standard bogu may have some very little modifications that could make big differences. for example, to me is fundamental to have extra men padding, in fact, personally I do not practice without the men pad and thats a period. I also think that the suki part is wrong, I mean, the padded part that protects the neck thats behind the hard part where you strike the tsuki, and it is made, in theory, to deflect the missed tsuki strikes that goes in to your throat, empirically I think that we all can agree that it simply doesnt work, it should be wider so it really could do the task for wich it is designed for. I also think that the right elbow protector should be part of the official protective gear. if some of you have read the AKF rules youll see that all extra protection besides thestandard bogu, or all modifications to the bogu to make it more protective are against the official rules. in other words lots and lots of people use extra padding on their bogu and they do it to enjoy kendo and do not have to worry about getting injured are, in fact, against the rules. wich makes the rules itself contradictory in their fundations, becouse rules are supposed to make kendo safer and to allow people to enjoy what they are doing (wich means that more peopleare able to practice, wich is the important part to all of us). but in theory, if we apply the rules the way it should I could be winner of a tournament, but get disqualified becouse Im using a men pad or an elbow protector, of course nobody cares if you are using an extra protector, hence it leads to this question:

if there are some rules that noone takes care about, not even the greater sensei, does this rules need modifications?

.....

about this particular men.
I dont really like it, its very ugly and weird, I liked more the one that it was shown in a video a while ago, that all of us have seen. BUT it looks VERY protective. for instance if I had a kid and he practices kendo, I would buy him the most protective bogu, not the one that looks better.

in conclusion:
I think that the bogu needs modifications in some parts, BUT I think that this particular men isnt the answer.

[shred_lord]

. for example, to me is fundamental to have extra men padding, in fact, personally I do not practice without the men pad and thats a period. This is not a problem with traditional bogu at all. It's a problem with modern cheap bogu and with ill fitting bogu. If the cheaper bogu protected as much as the mid to high-end stuff, this would not be an issue.

[Mudansha]

In my experience the pain resulting from getting hit men was due to an oversized beginner's men - forcing me to use a pad. Once I changed to a men that really fit (could support with my chin, not hanging from the top of my head), pain was gone. In fact I no longer have any space to insert a pad, it feels too cramped. As for the Tsuki I think everyone has to go through a certain period of uneasiness but in the end I don't see too many people wearing that extra "tsuki-pad" that they sell as they end up getting over it rather quickly.

What kind of bugs me about this is the fact that it doesn't seem like just another marketing gimmick - if what was mentioned earlier about the KKA requiring these things at gradings/shiai has any shred of truth, it could have a motive that goes beyond monetary gain. Still, I question if the Korean Kumdo population would generally stand for it? Judging from the reactions here, I feel like this is something that even some of the non-backplate Hakama supporters would cringe at.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

It´s horrid. I just lost an eye.

[Anonymous]

in my humble opinion I thik that, kendo gear can be improved, there are many things that I personally dont like about the standard bogu, like the tsuki protection, and men padding. I think that the standard bogu may have some very little modifications that could make big differences. for example, to me is fundamental to have extra men padding, in fact, personally I do not practice without the men pad and thats a period. I also think that the suki part is wrong, I mean, the padded part that protects the neck thats behind the hard part where you strike the tsuki, and it is made, in theory, to deflect the missed tsuki strikes that goes in to your throat, empirically I think that we all can agree that it simply doesnt work, it should be wider so it really could do the task for wich it is designed for. I also think that the right elbow protector should be part of the official protective gear. if some of you have read the AKF rules youll see that all extra protection besides thestandard bogu, or all modifications to the bogu to make it more protective are against the official rules. in other words lots and lots of people use extra padding on their bogu and they do it to enjoy kendo and do not have to worry about getting injured are, in fact, against the rules. wich makes the rules itself contradictory in their fundations, becouse rules are supposed to make kendo safer and to allow people to enjoy what they are doing (wich means that more peopleare able to practice, wich is the important part to all of us). but in theory, if we apply the rules the way it should I could be winner of a tournament, but get disqualified becouse Im using a men pad or an elbow protector, of course nobody cares if you are using an extra protector, hence it leads to this question:

if there are some rules that noone takes care about, not even the greater sensei, does this rules need modifications?

.....

about this particular men.
I dont really like it, its very ugly and weird, I liked more the one that it was shown in a video a while ago, that all of us have seen. BUT it looks VERY protective. for instance if I had a kid and he practices kendo, I would buy him the most protective bogu, not the one that looks better.

in conclusion:
I think that the bogu needs modifications in some parts, BUT I think that this particular men isnt the answer.



Most people who don't have cheap/poor fitting equipment never, ever have those problems.

The way I see it, we should probably keep things as they are before kendo ends up "progressing" even more and goes to hell with things like electronic scoring in fencing.

[herozs]

ahh disgusting I hope I never see one again.

[ne0r]

About the elbow protector:
Most of us benefit, in my opinion, from bogu that doesn't protect everything. We learn to be considerate and to hit precisely. The same goes with tsuki, do and men (while it is hard to hit men in a way that really hurts, IMO).

Hm... Could better protection lead to kendoka that care less about their hits because they won't hurt anyway?

[Inner_Silence]

This is not a problem with traditional bogu at all. It's a problem with modern cheap bogu and with ill fitting bogu. If the cheaper bogu protected as much as the mid to high-end stuff, this would not be an issue.

I use a custom made 2,5mm deluxe e-kendo bogu

is not the bogu issue, is only that I use extra padding becouse is just for some reason I just need it...

[Inner_Silence]

About the elbow protector:
Most of us benefit, in my opinion, from bogu that doesn't protect everything. We learn to be considerate and to hit precisely. The same goes with tsuki, do and men (while it is hard to hit men in a way that really hurts, IMO).

Hm... Could better protection lead to kendoka that care less about their hits because they won't hurt anyway?

I second that, in a combat is better to stay focus in attacking instead of getting hit

[Legionario]

Kendo has its own tradition and I'm practicing it because of that and because of my interest in japanese martial culture. I'm not really concerned with innovations or anything else done with the intent to remove kendo from its roots.
On top of that, as almost everybody already noted, I have to add that those "anti-shock" men are very very very ugly. Weren't hakama with stripes enough, do we really need to go further?

Anyways, thanks to nonamehandle for the interesting news.

[rfoxmich]

My concern is that with all those rivets on the top of the men where that plastic ring is.. given that shinai bend to conform to the men during a strike. the rivets will tear the heck our of shinai and that would be a safety issue. As far as how they look. Well I suppose if I didn't have a prejudice about the way traditional men look I might think it looks cool. But safety first.

[H.Sandsleth]

The rivets are one thing...if the men is all plastic, will that not make people hit more straight to the face? Since there is no metal to dent your shinai and no difference in sound. Also, the tsuki dare looks pretty big. Might produce a whole lot more tsuki. Imo if the gear changes significantly, the game will change.

I would not mind to see some standard for shock absorption though. Some kind of stamp on the bogu, "this bogu meets the japanese kendo shock standard" or something :-)

[shred_lord]

I would not mind to see some standard for shock absorption though. Some kind of stamp on the bogu, "this bogu meets the japanese kendo shock standard" or something :-)I agree with that.

[EBP2K2]

I see it as an attempt to olympic-ize kendo...

[Karaken]

new men1 (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20080304017440pq9.jpg)
new men2 (http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99dm3.jpg)
new men3 (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99sn2.jpg)
new men4 (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99ml9.jpg)


hope these work, sorry bout the links on the first posts...worked for me, so thought...


Turboyoshi,
no not the same, also different federation and very different kendo/kumdo

Mononokifool,
not the same men, but this is the men that i saw before (which i mentioned in the fist post). the new men is an advancement from what you posted.


these new men significantly reduces shock, so esp. enticing to korean moms who want to be assured that doing kendo/kumdo will not make their kids become dumb :)

OK all the ranting about trandition and all aside ( I am all for it being with it for 15 years and all ) some of us ( one of my students ) really needs better protection due to brain injury, just to continue with Kendo desperately. Since I have seen youtube video, I have sne an e-mail to the comapny ( who happens to be in motorcycle helmet business ) and to the professor ( who was directing the demo ) to no avail - I've got no response. If you can help me to get a prototype for my student or even help me to talk to these people who developed it, I'd really appreciate it. Rigth get down to the heart of it, if the question is to be able to continue Kendo or not, the asthetics or traditions has to take back seat in my mind.. Cheers!

[ben]

...

I would love to see Kendo World do an article on this :>.

...

The last issue (4.1) contained an article by Kato Junichi sensei on various developments in Korean kendo, the new plastic men being one. He noted a few problems: 1) the amount of echo inside the men, 2) it does not breathe well and so traps most of the heat inside, 3) the sound of bamboo hitting the men is significantly different, 4) the possibility that the plastic men will increase shinai wear.

I also noted that the white mengane (should we say "menplastic"?) it appears is white on the inside as well. This would be very distracting for the wearer.

b

[Miravil]

I don't mind welcoming better new designs and protections for the bogu but this one is a no no for me. It looks like it is made out of plastic and I wouldn't want to depend on plastic from heavy attacks. And one last thing, the person wearing the new men keeps reminding me of ET.

[turboyoshi]

OK all the ranting about trandition and all aside ( I am all for it being with it for 15 years and all ) some of us ( one of my students ) really needs better protection due to brain injury, just to continue with Kendo desperately.

Well brain injuries are a special case. I don't see why anyone could disapprove of special protection in such cases, we should be compassionate enough to be willing to make accommodations for these rare cases. However, I don't see that it should involve a design change for all kendoka.

I wish the best of luck to you and your student and hope he gets to continue kendo.

sean

[AlexM]

Does the new men design help alleviate the shock due to something like taiatari? It doesn't look like it would help significantly in that respect...

... and its ugly. Current bogu design protect enough.

More protective gear? We seem to moving in a different direction where I am: You now have to justify having extra padding at local tournaments. I don't think anyone has ever been disqualified because they were wearing something extra but they may be forced to remove the offending item. I got called for using a heel pad recently and just had to explain that there was a pre-existing injury (which there was). I don't think you can justify wearing extra gear out of fear of injury though. I'll try to make it a point of asking the shimpan at the next tournament.

[Mosquite]

OK all the ranting about trandition and all aside ( I am all for it being with it for 15 years and all ) some of us ( one of my students ) really needs better protection due to brain injury, just to continue with Kendo desperately. Since I have seen youtube video, I have sne an e-mail to the comapny ( who happens to be in motorcycle helmet business ) and to the professor ( who was directing the demo ) to no avail - I've got no response. If you can help me to get a prototype for my student or even help me to talk to these people who developed it, I'd really appreciate it. Rigth get down to the heart of it, if the question is to be able to continue Kendo or not, the asthetics or traditions has to take back seat in my mind.. Cheers!

I personally think that the brain damage can be avoided by right technique or just by lightening the men strike. (Better quality bogu would not be bad either but it does not mean that it has to be a red massive plastic thingy like that)

[Kenshi]

I heard recently that the ZNKR is considering a ban on the black men (ie the inside strip being black instead of red). If they are even contemplating a ban on this small thing then it says a lot about their willingness to bend tradition.

Japan is without a doubt (and will be - for at least the foreseable future) the kendo world leader, and most - if not all - countries attempt to follow her lead to the letter. If Japan decides to ban the black men then - I bet - the same change will go through the entire kendo world in the near future.

So, how much of a chance to these new "men" have? (rhetorical)

If the KKA want to promote their own stuff then they risk alienating their own membership from the world stage (and even people in their own association perhaps?). So.... whats the benefit, and to whom? (rhetorical)

----
On an aside - Karaken: somebody with brain injury should seriously question whether they want to be doing kendo at all. Introduce them to iai or jodo instead. Sometimes we can work around our problems, sometimes we cant. I personally would refuse to allow someone with a brain injury (you havent specified exactly what it is) to join class.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I want to add that I also heard about the black border of the men being prohibited in the near future in japan.

[NigelSponge]

a lot of screws on it too =\

well, its pretty obvious that the Koreans want to do something to make them stand out. They know there isn't a need for a new men just as much as we all do. Its a shame they feel the need to make big waves in the kendo pool with stuff like this. They don't need to! Watch 13th WKC teams and you'll know why!

[nonamehandle]

I really have no strong opinions on this new men one way or the other, but there are just some "interesting views" that I want to clarify here. I am happy to let ignorance run amok, as long as they are not mine and most sane people realise that they are ignorances, prejudices, biases, etc. but there are certain assumptions that are made here which are quite provincial and rather amusing. i will especially deal with those that touch on korea, since people have irrational animosity towards korea (and things korean) here on this forum.

korea has a very long history of modern kendo/kumdo, stretching back to the days of when first modern kendo was being developed. it also has a long history of relatively independent development of the sport (i.e. independent of the japan system). it also has enough of a large population of kumsha/kenshi so that it has a stable base to develop and modify kumdo/kendo to fit the needs of its kumsha population and not rely on an outside source for inspiration, resources, etc. this also means that they have a legitimate concern about what THEY should/can do to continue the growth of kumdo/kendo in her society.

there is no other country i know of, besides korea and japan, that has the human and financial ability and resources to be relatively independent (i do not know about taiwan, so cannot comment). it is one thing to insist that the UK kendo group with a member number of several hundred and a kodansha population numbering little more than the number of digits on my body follow "tradition" and how things are done in japan, and whole another thing to insist that korea with several hundred thousands kumsha and a kodansha population numbering several thousand (with a long history of modern kendo and development) to totally abide by the dictates of a foreign association.

if it ever gets to a point where the kenshi population in US reaches a million members and the kodansha population likewise expands, it behooves me to think that we will not want to make independent policy and development in our kendo to suit the needs of our members and of the US society (having a standard international understanding is another matter, hence the IKF). before you hastily answer this, though it is still 4 months away, remember that July 4th is coming up.

as to this new men issue, i don't think that the target audience is you guys. so don't start getting paranoid about it. they have a bigger audience to think about than you (imagine the grandiosity of you folks, i am used to us americans fantasizing in this way, but you others?? :laugh: it is amusing). nor do i think that they are doing this to sportisize kendo (i don't see the connection), so you can start breathing again. instead, they seem to be targeting the korean audience, esp. the kiddie sector (and this is a large sector); maybe for money as someone pointed out, and maybe to help maintain the future growth of kumdo (i seem to remember a recent thread about the popularity of kendo in japan and how to increase its growth esp. for the kiddies). being very cynical of one group's motives while being very generous of another group's motives is very (colonial? imperial?) telling.

undoubtably japan is the powerhouse in kendo/kumdo. even koreans acknowledge this and because they do, they make an effort to learn and interact with them. such cannot be said of kenshis from countries outside of japan towards korea. they seem to regard them as usurpers to what is "traditional" hence is the "best" (interestingly skewed view).




p.s.

on a side note, but related in concept to this, is the movement of national associatons outside korea in the taekwondo world. some of them are clamoring to be more independent from the kookkiwon here in korea (the AJKF of TKD), and i for one think that this is a very reasonable and good development. some of them do have enough of a stable basis of practitioners and resources to demand this.

[Kenshi]

One of the more endearing things about kendo, rather than, say, karate, is that there is not a proliferation of organisations, styles, philosphies, etc. (well, there is in general terms, but not in goal or actuality). I think this is not only good for kendo, but good for the practitioners in general.

Modern kendo is relatively new, but it is fundamentally based on older (some even currently extant) methods of combat, and as such has been shaped over a much longer period of time than you give it credit for. These systems have been handed down over many generations and the practises within them - not only physical forms (believes, modes of behaviour, religion, etc) - are from what kendo was made from. Some of these practises are peculiar to a single country, some are not. At any rate, that same country is - I believe justly - looked at for leadership today. Stating this is neither "irrational animosity towards korea (and things korean)" nor a display of any "ignorances, prejudices, biases, etc," ... its a simple fact.

That some people find kendo interesting, alluring, mystical, whatever, because of its deep relationship to its parent country is pretty normal in the kendo world (those of us who live in Japan, however, soon lose it...if we even had it in the first place). I think its the same reason why you find people who are into wine going on trips to Italy and France, or if you want to see the Colosseum, where better than to go to Rome, right?

[EBP2K2]

nor do i think that they are doing this to sportisize kendo (i don't see the connection)

Oh yes they are. KKA is pretty clear about wanting kendo in olympics. having a Men like the ones you posted, it's a clear attempt to "standardize" kendo equipments, so that they can have control over their manufacturing process and specification. It will definitely make it easier to attach some sort of scoring sensor device on them, too. Many of KKA officials have gone on record of wanting to follow TKD in adopting scoring sensors (using same company, too). I wonder how TKD's sensors are working out.. they were supposed to introduce them for Beijing Olympics...

I think it's prudent to clarify that it is the leadership of KKA that's doing this... most korean kenshi are probably just as against this as anyone.

[Paburo]

I heard recently that the ZNKR is considering a ban on the black men (ie the inside strip being black instead of red). If they are even contemplating a ban on this small thing then it says a lot about their willingness to bend tradition.

hasegawa crystal clear fishbowl men is ok, but black men is wrong? even having an all-white bogu is ok, but a stupid black stripe instead of red should be banned? i mean... wtf? arent we being a little picky annoying here?

i don't like those KKA men designs, but on the other hand, looks like hasegawa is the only company allowed to "bend tradition"....

[mugen no junin]

hasegawa crystal clear fishbowl men is ok, but black men is wrong? even having an all-white bogu is ok, but a stupid black stripe instead of red should be banned? i mean... wtf? arent we being a little picky annoying here?

i don't like those KKA men designs, but on the other hand, looks like hasegawa is the only company allowed to "bend tradition"....

I second that.










and the fact that I have a black men is irrelevant...

[Robobob]

That new men is undoubtly ugly. But I wouldn´t judge its functionality by that. Just because it´s plastic, doesn´t mean it will break easily. Racing cars are made out of a sort of plastic or carbon shinais. I am sure they will be able to develop men that are more durable and maybe more comfortable than the old ones using plastic and modern technology. But obviously they are not able to develop men that look better! And the question is, wether a new development is needed, since almost everybody claimed to be okay with their old ones.
Kote are something that breaks much faster and maybe could use some development. And the majority of "injures" coming from strikes are from missing Do´s in my opinion. I never felt need for better men-protection...

[Kenshi]

i mean... wtf? arent we being a little picky annoying here?

Dont ask me dude.

I think the hasegawa men designs are a lot more "ugly" and certainly less "traditional" than the black stripe!!!!! And carbon shinai..... dont dare scratch my dou with that awful device!

[nonamehandle]

Modern kendo is relatively new, but it is fundamentally based on older (some even currently extant) methods of combat, and as such has been shaped over a much longer period of time than you give it credit for. These systems have been handed down over many generations and the practises within them - not only physical forms (believes, modes of behaviour, religion, etc) - are from what kendo was made from.

in general i agree with what you are saying here. the only addition that i would like to add is that for someone who is studying east asian philosophy, it is extremely clear that the source of many of these "beliefs, modes of behaviour, religion, etc" are confucian and in particular neo-confucian. korea has a long history of confucian and neo-confucian philosophy and the beliefs espoused in kendo (once you explain the difference in emphasis and "terminology") will be immediately familiar to most of the current lay korean population. what i think is unique to japan is the linking of neo-confucian philosophy with martial arts and martial values; certainly the koreans did not do it and are only starting to do it in the modern era (from the influence of japan of course) and recently it seems, in kumdo as well. a main reason for this is that for the koreans these philosophical values were attached with other activities of daily life (and this is where you would find them in current korean society). by historical happenstance the japanese had "武士-musha/bushi" while the koreans had "文士-moonsha/sunbee", the medium of propagation of beliefs, morals, modes of behaviour, etc. for the japanese 士 were in the areas of 武("martial"), while for the korean 士, the medium of propagation of beliefs, morals, modes of behaviour, etc. were in the areas of 文("culture, scholarship").

what i want to point out in relation to your comment above is that it is not that the beliefs and modes of behaviour that you mentioned are not known or valued in korea; it might not be "strongly" empahsised in kumdo, i grant you that, but that is because they are emphasised strongly in other areas of their lives. sorry for the long windedness.


Some of these practises are peculiar to a single country, some are not. At any rate, that same country is - I believe justly - looked at for leadership today. Stating this is neither "irrational animosity towards korea (and things korean)" nor a display of any "ignorances, prejudices, biases, etc," ... its a simple fact.

I agree with your statement. if you look over at the end of my last post (starting with "undoubtably") i think you would see that i and the vast majority of korean kumshas would agree with you as well. my mention of "irrational animosity..." etc. was not a comment on this particular view. Instead it was directed towards the general tenor of the thoughts and viewpoints of fellow fourmites re: issues korean. that they hold in general a very negative attitude, i think you would also agree, is a simple fact.



That some people find kendo interesting, alluring, mystical, whatever, because of its deep relationship to its parent country is pretty normal in the kendo world (those of us who live in Japan, however, soon lose it...if we even had it in the first place).

hey again, i agree with you here as well. i've mentioned else in other threads that i understand that for many of the people here the introduction to kendo is through the medium of japanese culture, so it is naturally for them to be partial toward japanese culture. this is understandable.

i think in general, you and i agree on lot of things, maybe just the emphasis might be different. from your posts, i gather that by you living in japan you see and experience and sense and know things that others not in your situation cannot; and realise that lot of the view points held by people outside of japan are distorted. by me living and studying here in korea i see and experience and sense and know things that others outside of korea cannot and do not care to; and i realise that lot of their view points (on this fourm) are distorted.

i, in all honesty, cannot remember an incidence of interacting with korean kumshas here in korea, where they have spoken negatively of japanese kendo. the same obviously cannot be said of the forumites here (who ARE doing japanese kendo) towards korean kumdo.

[JoDuncan]

I just had a look at those men....

Right on! Always wanted to have a fencing match against an android.
:smoker:

Personally, i won't be happy until a complete redesign of the men into something more like: THIS (http://www.unitedmaskandparty.com/Character_Heads_And_Helmets/images/Viking_helmet_dlx_no_fur.JPG)

[R Stroud]

http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99sn2.jpg

I am surprised no one has noticed that this new "contraption" does not protect the front of the shoulder at all. I miss guided tsuki would be really painful on the bit of shoulder and clavicle that this new "modern" MEN leaves un-exposed.

If you wear your MEN properly the flaps will cover this section. You can of course find lots of people wearing "normal" MEN without covering the front of the shoulders, but that is because they do not fold the flaps properly.

This Korean space-age MEN looks like you would get lots of problems from a tsuki hitting the shoulder...

[JSchmidt]

I am surprised no one has noticed that this new "contraption" does not protect the front of the shoulder at all. I miss guided tsuki would be really painful on the bit of shoulder and clavicle that this new "modern" MEN leaves un-exposed.


Is that really an issue?. I usually play in jodan and receive a fair amount of errant tsuki's and due to my kamae, the men-dare will never cover the that area.

[NigelSponge]

a lot of screws on it too =\

well, its pretty obvious that the Koreans want to do something to make them stand out. They know there isn't a need for a new men just as much as we all do. Its a shame they feel the need to make big waves in the kendo pool with stuff like this. They don't need to! Watch 13th WKC teams and you'll know why!

I'd like to clarify what i meant by this post. My dojo/dojang does kendo and kumdo. We mostly go to kumdo tournaments, although we are trying to get into more kendo now that we have made more connections within their federation.
ANYWAY, before it is assumed that i have a problem with korean influence on kendo, just be aware i'm speaking from what i've seen at sister dojangs and at kumdo tournaments. The sock for a head wrap (tenugui,) hakama with velcro instead of tied, a lot of padding on arms and wrists.
This new men seems like 1 more step in that direction. I just can't see any real reason to instill these things into the art other than to differentiate Kumdo from kendo, especially outside of Korea where kendo is more well known.

[R Stroud]

Is that really an issue?. I usually play in jodan and receive a fair amount of errant tsuki's and due to my kamae, the men-dare will never cover the that area.

Does your men dare break on a diagonal or perpendicular to the length of the flap? I can see your point and will need to go find a mirror to see this for myself. But it occurs to me that if you are in jodan you are providing some coverage to the "area of concern" with your arms...

I know that when I do a normal swing I don't force my men dare flaps up, but don't do enough jodan or nitoh to address your observation. I still think that if the flap is bent on a diagonal from the ear to the chin you will get some additional protection from the front, regardless of kamae.

Also you don't look like the Flying Nun, when you fold it correctly, and this new Korean invention is very much a Robotic Sally Fields...

Cheers

[Kenzan]

When are the going to come out with the Limited Edition Boba Fett men?

[Obulco]

The sock for a head wrap (tenugui,)...

A sock instead of tenugui?!!! :confused2

[ghostdancer]

A sock instead of tenugui?!!! :confused2

double what?:confused::eek:

[turboyoshi]

A sock instead of tenugui?!!! :confused2

Now, now, don't freak out yet. I'm sure he means something like the ski mask type head coverings, not an actual sock.

Something like what Kenzen (http://photos1.blogger.com/img/197/1158/480/ski4.jpg) would wear. That's not so bad now is it?
:smoker:

sean

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

beware of the oncoming impermeable innovation on the matter for ultimate protection...

[NigelSponge]

A sock instead of tenugui?!!! :confused2

It's a white stretchy sock looking thing that if it didn't have a face hole would cover your entire head. Many younger practitioners at kumdo dojangs have ~2 in. pads in their men so a tenugui isn't really needed for protection's sake.
Again it's designed to add another level of ease to kumdo (not having to learn to tie tenugui.) which is a great way to keep beginners and kids, not worry about them getting frustrated.
They are also commonly used with girls to negate the difficulty that comes with long hair when using a traditional tenugui.
I personal can't stand the things, they really look kinda ridiculous =P Thats how they roll tho! haha

[Karaken]

One should not overlook one biggest difference between Korean and Japanese Kendo Dojos. Most of Korean Dojang are profit based whereas Japanese Dojos are not. Most Korean masters make their living out of Kumdo whereas Jpanese Senseis are not. So the difference is that when your job is to keep more students ( profit - Salary - Living ) you care more about comfort and ease ( and less pain ) of the sport than tradition and Martial Art aspect of it ( Harder it gets, better it is - it builds character ). I remeber a long time ago when I was learning TKD as a kid, there were not many masters making a decent living from it because it wasn't a business. It was martial art. We took a cold water shower after the practice in the middle of the winter of -10 degrees ( celcius of course ). If you do that these days, you'll lose all your student in a day and get sued by the parents. Do buttons, face masks, velcro Hakama - can be explained very easy from this perspective. Also interesting is when they become Godansha ( 5 dan and up ) they all wear traditional Gi and Bogu of olden days...

[NigelSponge]

Most of Korean Dojang are profit based whereas Japanese Dojos are not. Most Korean masters make their living out of Kumdo whereas Jpanese Senseis are not. So the difference is that when your job is to keep more students ( profit - Salary - Living ) you care more about comfort and ease ( and less pain ) of the sport than tradition and Martial Art aspect of it ( Harder it gets, better it is - it builds character ).
Well looking at a lot of the stronger kumdo dojangs in my area they are no joke. Of course there are also the more lack luster dojangs (as in any martial art though.) Although i think things like Velcro hakama etc. are designed to keep youngsters and beginners coming back, those who stick with kumdo for the long haul are just as dedicated and skilled as those who stay with kendo, regardless of what made them attend readily their first few years.

[Kenshi]

i think in general, you and i agree on lot of things, maybe just the emphasis might be different.

Absolutely agreed.


from your posts, i gather that by you living in japan you see and experience and sense and know things that others not in your situation cannot; and realise that lot of the view points held by people outside of japan are distorted.

I think I am in a v.lucky situation and I am v.grateful for it. I do think there is something different going on outside of Japan, though ive not quite worked out how to say it in my own words. Although I would definetly say that core values of kendo havent been transmitted fully (and probably cant be abroad) im extremely hesitant to call people who are not in as luck a situation as I am "ignorant" or whatever.

I think that the KW magazine (and this forum more to the point) has offered a great venue into discussing these things but, my feeling is, im not sure if its compounding "missunderstandings" (the forum, not the mag). Ive use "" because its seems possible - and more likely probable - that the kendo world in general is forming a "general view of kendo" devoid of certain cultural mores. You can see it here in this forum. I dont think that this is bad at all, its just the way it is. Lets hope that the Japanese root of kendo is not forgotten as it develops because - at that point - its not kendo anymore.


One should not overlook one biggest difference between Korean and Japanese Kendo Dojos. Most of Korean Dojang are profit based whereas Japanese Dojos are not. Most Korean masters make their living out of Kumdo whereas Jpanese Senseis are not.

Im not sure if its most dojang or not but, honestly speaking, this too me is the most frightening departure because it fundamentally and irrevocably changes the core meaning of budo and shugyo as expressed and found in kendo.

[Paburo]

Dont ask me dude.

I think the hasegawa men designs are a lot more "ugly" and certainly less "traditional" than the black stripe!!!!! And carbon shinai..... dont dare scratch my dou with that awful device!
lol, it was more of a rhetorical question...

i personally think there is still a lot of room for bogu improvement (more resistant yet cheaper materials, etc) which can be done without compromising aesthetics.

it just seems a tad unfair that japanese companies can come up with kendo novelties (and have them approved by the IKF) whereas all korean inventions seem evil and should be banned... lol.

[ne0r]

I agree, Hasegawa's mujun men is quite an exclusive change.

But Hasegawa's changes are less drastical (compared to, for instance, this new men) and are not intended to show "independence" from another country. I'm thinking about the koshiita on their hakamas right now.
But I agree that we shouldn't demonize Korean innovations just because they are Korean.


"Im not sure if its most dojang or not but, honestly speaking, this too me is the most frightening departure because it fundamentally and irrevocably changes the core meaning of budo and shugyo as expressed and found in kendo." - Kenshi
I don't know if this is so bad at all. But this is another topic^^.

[nonamehandle]

I second that.










and the fact that I have a black men is irrelevant...

i saw that! :)

[yoda-waza]

I wonder how the early products of the first bogu makers were received by those used to practicing kenjutsu without it.... Imagine the derision: "Just what is the f$*k is this? Only wimps would wear a bamboo barrel! Don't talk to me about head protection - I'd rather crack my skull before I looked gay!"

[ghostdancer]

Is it possible that this new type of Men is preempting a move to get Kumdo into the Olympics ?

I mean it might fit with the Olympics attitude towards health and safety !

[EBP2K2]

Is it possible that this new type of Men is preempting a move to get Kumdo into the Olympics ?

I mean it might fit with the Olympics attitude towards health and safety !

i post my reply again here:

Oh yes they are. KKA is pretty clear about wanting kendo in olympics. having a Men like the ones you posted, it's a clear attempt to "standardize" kendo equipments, so that they can have control over their manufacturing process and specification. It will definitely make it easier to attach some sort of scoring sensor device on them, too. Many of KKA officials have gone on record of wanting to follow TKD in adopting scoring sensors (using same company, too). I wonder how TKD's sensors are working out.. they were supposed to introduce them for Beijing Olympics...

I think it's prudent to clarify that it is the leadership of KKA that's doing this... most korean kenshi are probably just as against this as anyone.


it's pretty obvious to everyone.

[ZEROtoNINE]

Im not sure if its most dojang or not but, honestly speaking, this too me is the most frightening departure because it fundamentally and irrevocably changes the core meaning of budo and shugyo as expressed and found in kendo.

Our dojang adhears to the traditional Japanese style of kendo even though our Saubunim is Korean. Maybe this is due to his current studies taking place at a Dojo (His first 8 years of Kumdo in Korea, The last 4 in USA at a Dojo), but we're considered a Kumdo dojang not a Kendo dojo (even though we do sonkyo :ko:)

[Karaken]

Well looking at a lot of the stronger kumdo dojangs in my area they are no joke. Of course there are also the more lack luster dojangs (as in any martial art though.) Although i think things like Velcro hakama etc. are designed to keep youngsters and beginners coming back, those who stick with kumdo for the long haul are just as dedicated and skilled as those who stay with kendo, regardless of what made them attend readily their first few years.

Exactly my point. Commercial purpose will want to keep as many as you can regardless of their motives. Whereas martial artist will want to keep the ones who'd ultimately appreciate the art and stick to it. Both can produce a great Kenshi, the way to get there is quite different.

[nonamehandle]

Is it possible that this new type of Men is preempting a move to get Kumdo into the Olympics ?


no i don't think so.



it's pretty obvious to everyone.

not really. i get the sense that you seem to start out with a belief and are seeing events to make that belief seem/feel true.

[mononokifool]

if it does will you start to have olympic kendo?? like they have olympic tai kwon do

[EBP2K2]

not really. i get the sense that you seem to start out with a belief and are seeing events to make that belief seem/feel true.

NO. I read korean newspapers and keep myself up to date on a lot of things... every now and then I come across articles on kumdo. More often than not they describe what kumdo is (dont be surprised , but kumdo is still alien to most koreans... they know about it, they have seen it in dramas, TV, etc.. but certainly nothing like TKD, baseball, basketball, etc.) and what the interviewee (usually KKA heads) wants to pursue in future for korean kumdo.

They are supposed to have sensor-attached exhibition match this March or April, but i dunno how that worked or is working out. It is TRUE that they are looking to attach sensors on bogu from the same supplier that made the sensors for TKD... the one that was embroiled in a scandal over the bidding process after an appeal by Adidas who lost in the bidding and cried foul.

As much as KKA falls in line to FIK, KKA is known to want to promote the idea of olympic kendo to grow the sport of Kumdo. KKA is always fighting for TV time.. and greater exposure... and becoming an olympic sport is the easiest and the most effective way to do just that.

People often misunderstand the place of Kumdo among Koreans. When Koreans won WKC, it was a blip on a radar. It would have helped if the beat the Japanese in the Finals, but the bottom line is, KKA NEEDS olympics to become relevant among greater number of korean population.

The perks that come with being an olympic sport in Korea.. especially when Korea has a good chance to place medals (which Kumdo automatically qualifies for..), fuding and support at federal level as well as provincial level becomes enormous, thus the attraction.

Personally I dont lean one way or another. If it happens, then that's just the way cookie crumbles.
Tell me how I am making up things.

[nonamehandle]

NO. I read korean newspapers and keep myself up to date on a lot of things...
.
.
.
Tell me how I am making up things.

this thread is about the new men. it is a bit of a leap to go from "new men" to "wanting to make kumdo into an olympic sport". the questioner was asking if there was a linkage, i saw none and answered. your post tried to explain the linkage, which you claim is obvious to everyone; i however, did not find it obvious and answered likewise.

if you want to get on the soapbox and denounce KKA for wanting to make kumdo/kendo into an olympic sport, you are free to do so (and in that light i might tend to agree with you), but might i ask that you take it elsewhere or start a new thread? there is a current thread that is talking about WKC and the olympics, i am sure that your view will be much more appropriate there. your last post above had no mention of the new men, which is what we are talking about here.

here is what i know: there is no mention by the KKA that this new men design is for getting kumdo into the olympics. the KKA's stated reasons for this new men has been paraphrased in post #1. IF there is some advantage for getting kumdo/kendo into the olympics by this new men, i don't think KKA itself is aware of it! this knowledge it seems is privy to a select few like yourself.

[EBP2K2]

Like any organization, KKA has a mandate. Why force new "plasticky" men on its members? Are you really gullible enough to buy the "safety" argument in its entirety and nothing more?

Does KKA explicitely state that the new men is an attempt to enter kumdo as an olympic sport? No, it doesn't. but as I said before, it doesnt take a genius to see the linkage between KKA's effort to introduce new equipments and its mandate of spreading kumdo (which includes the olympic effort).

I call it common sense.

[mugen no junin]

i saw that! :)

hmmm? me? are you talking to me? naaa, it wasn't me...show me proofs, you are only chats & badge, CHATS AND BADGE! :smiley:

[mugen no junin]

(sorry for the double post but I've excedeed the time limit to edit the previous one...I'm slow I know it)

back to the post...it has to be very hot under that men during a 2 hours-allkakarigeiko-summer keiko, hasn't it? I would never use it basically for this reason...oh and the fact that it's extremely ugly is irrelevant...

I don't know, I consider the "blood, sweet and tears" thing as a conditio sine qua non of martial arts as a physical activity and a character building activity. I think I learn more from the hits I could take (light or heavy, on the target or not) than from the ones I could make, so I HAVE to feel them when I take them as part of a learning process based first of all on body awareness. So having a bogu that does not make you feel hits is useless in my opinion.

Correct tenouchi or hit correct target is another speech, even if they're part of the learning process of michi.

What's the next step? a laser sight attached to the shinai so you don't have to correct your cuts?

hmmm, seems as i'm a little bit conservative on this one...

[Karaken]

(it has to be very hot under that men during a 2 hours-allkakarigeiko-summer keiko, hasn't it? I would never use it basically for this reason...

I don't know, I consider the "blood, sweet and tears" thing as a conditio sine qua non of martial arts as a physical activity and a character building activity.
hmmm, seems as i'm a little bit conservative on this one...
I can't resist - aren't you contradicting yourself? :-)

[Kagerou]

I personally don't mind getting a little knocked around during kendo...I do mind cooking my brain like an egg. But most likely there is a handy release latch on the back so you can flip it off easily....maybe it even has built in A/C. Hey that's not a bad idea

PATENT PENDING!!!!!!

[ben]

Exactly my point. Commercial purpose will want to keep as many as you can regardless of their motives. Whereas martial artist will want to keep the ones who'd ultimately appreciate the art and stick to it. Both can produce a great Kenshi, the way to get there is quite different.

I'd say only the latter way can produce great kenshi.

The former can produce great athletes*.

b

*I was going to say "great sportsmen and sportswomen" but there is also a notion of honour in the term "sportsman", i.e. "sportsmanship", and even this is not guaranteed in today's Olympics.

[Andoru]

Not impressed with this new men at all.

[LarsCW]

I think some will be more motivated to try and bash some of the padding of the men. As you could see on some of the pictures it already had been done some.

I think with a men design like this something else will be mentioned.

Here in Holland you have alot of tall kenshi which will be even taller with these men.

How much can you add to this height?

Sure you are adding protection. It's just that no human opponant can reach the top of the men anymore:D

[nonamehandle]

i went to sehyun (bogu supplier in korea) the other day to pickup some new equipment. the owner was there so we talked a bit about equipment and other kendo/kumdo related issues. i remembered this thread and broached the subject to hear what he thought. note that he is a "traditionalist", he is financially attached to this (new men might mean less business), etc., etc. but i figured that he, being in this business, would have had more time to talk about the new men with his colleagues.

he mentioned that there were a lot of talk regarding the new men and that mostly it was negative. he mentioned several problems: the strap on the men (in place of the himo) puts lot of pressure on the temples; the ringing, when hit, is rather loud; the rivets are something that one needs to be wary of; the cost of the men itself would be prohibitive, especially for something made for the children.

at this point, he did not seem worried at all that this new men would be detrimental to his business, in his own words, "these are for the children and it is not even a good design." he felt that this men was made to just appease the wishings of the boss who wanted a new men (there is a story behind this but don't think it is really relevant so will leave for another time). i was half tempted to ask about the relationship between the new men and the move to get kumdo/kendo into the olympics...but i felt rather silly; i didn't want him to think me strange for asking such a off the wall question. if in the ocean of conspiracy theorys that is the korean internet with its very reactionary netizens, no one has linked the new men to the olympics, i wasn't gonna broadcast my ignorance, no matter now often and loudly someone tells me that it is common sense. there are enough rational and prevailing reasons to dislike this men without resorting to "six degrees of separation" methodology to link obscurity to absurdity.


p.s. i couldn't determine whether the problems that the sehyun guy was talking about was referring specifically to this new men (2008) or with the older design (2006) or for both.

[mugen no junin]

I can't resist - aren't you contradicting yourself? :-)


Really?...I mean, sweat is part of learning process in a martial art and I'm not afraid of, but boiling my brain is another story...am I contradicting? :confused:

[EBP2K2]

I personally don't mind getting a little knocked around during kendo...I do mind cooking my brain like an egg. But most likely there is a handy release latch on the back so you can flip it off easily....maybe it even has built in A/C. Hey that's not a bad idea

PATENT PENDING!!!!!!

it should have a built-in video camera, too. haha.

[NigelSponge]

i wasn't gonna broadcast my ignorance, no matter now often and loudly someone tells me that it is common sense. there are enough rational and prevailing reasons to dislike this men without resorting to "six degrees of separation" methodology to link obscurity to absurdity.


mmm, well put.

[EBP2K2]

i went to sehyun (bogu supplier in korea) the ....


It's a not a stretch of imagination. I'm not going to get into name-calling like you have. I have spoken to number of Korean Kenshis (we are all expats are students overseas), and we all tend to agree that:

1/ KKA pulls stunts like this (e.g. no-koshita) every once in a while, and it pisses off a lot of Koreans. KKA tries a lot of things (like 4 judges on court, stationary in each corner), and some are hits, but most are misses... Hante in a national, final match? People couldnt believe KKA will bend over backwards to accomodate a TV stations' request to "move things along quickly."

2/ The new Men designs they have come up with (most recall the alien looking one) are simply ugly and stupid.

3/ I was told sensor-attached matches were carried out before, not sure how well publicized it was. Imagine a sensor match with bogu as it is now compared to a plastic made and easy to spec. and control bogu/men.
the connection, while not explictely made by KKA, becomes clear. This isnt a conspiracy theory or a far out idea. KKA's #1 mandate is olympics, and a lot of what it does is to propagate KUMDO to legitimize itself as the association that pushes for inclusion of Kendo and Kumdo in the Olympics... What better way to earn brownie points among IOC committee members by coming up with standardized, "modern" equipment? How do you think TKD got into olympics? (it had a powerful ally, and of course, more quick to adapt to olympic standards than karate)

[nonamehandle]

...I'm not going to get into name-calling like you have.
hmm...not sure why you think that i am calling you names...some of my statements are quite pointed, i grant you that, but i am not sure that that can be considered calling names...i made a specific effort not to make ad hominem arguments, or


I have spoken to number of Korean Kenshis (we are all expats are students overseas), and we all tend to agree that:...


...ad verecundiam arguments (reverse ad hominen).


as to the other points that you made in the post, i have stated what i know and you have stated what you know, so why don't we just let the others decide what they want to believe...supposing that they even care.

[Kaoru]

new men1 (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20080304017440pq9.jpg)
new men2 (http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99dm3.jpg)
new men3 (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99sn2.jpg)
new men4 (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2008sbseab280eb8f84ec99ml9.jpg)


hope these work, sorry bout the links on the first posts...worked for me, so thought...


Turboyoshi,
no not the same, also different federation and very different kendo/kumdo

Mononokifool,
not the same men, but this is the men that i saw before (which i mentioned in the fist post). the new men is an advancement from what you posted.


these new men significantly reduces shock, so esp. enticing to korean moms who want to be assured that doing kendo/kumdo will not make their kids become dumb :)

Those men look like they'd protect for tsuki well, and the head too, but they remind me of the Imperial soldiers in Star Wars... Kinda ugly!

As to that dojang, not real kumdo... McDojo. And yes, Korea has them too, just like anywhere. They had on really weird stuff... then the shoes, and the funny kamae... etc.

Anyway, thanks for the links for the new type of men. Very interesting! Now, let's see if they could make a new men that looked like the traditional one that had the same shock absorbing new features... I'd much prefer not to look either like a bug or some alien when I get to wear bogu and buy a good men with decent protection. I will say though, that new men has good throat protection. I don't see how anyone could accidentally strike under the tsuki protector.

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

It's a not a stretch of imagination. I'm not going to get into name-calling like you have. I have spoken to number of Korean Kenshis (we are all expats are students overseas), and we all tend to agree that:

1/ KKA pulls stunts like this (e.g. no-koshita) every once in a while, and it pisses off a lot of Koreans. KKA tries a lot of things (like 4 judges on court, stationary in each corner), and some are hits, but most are misses... Hante in a national, final match? People couldnt believe KKA will bend over backwards to accomodate a TV stations' request to "move things along quickly."

2/ The new Men designs they have come up with (most recall the alien looking one) are simply ugly and stupid.

3/ I was told sensor-attached matches were carried out before, not sure how well publicized it was. Imagine a sensor match with bogu as it is now compared to a plastic made and easy to spec. and control bogu/men.
the connection, while not explictely made by KKA, becomes clear. This isnt a conspiracy theory or a far out idea. KKA's #1 mandate is olympics, and a lot of what it does is to propagate KUMDO to legitimize itself as the association that pushes for inclusion of Kendo and Kumdo in the Olympics... What better way to earn brownie points among IOC committee members by coming up with standardized, "modern" equipment? How do you think TKD got into olympics? (it had a powerful ally, and of course, more quick to adapt to olympic standards than karate)

Name calling? To who? I read nonamehandle-san's post 3 times and still didn't see any. So, I'm not sure why you said that.

I think maybe you misunderstood his post... I think his post was fine. :)

Kaoru

[LaVidaKendo]

Looks like a baseball catcher's mask :)

[Zukini]

i cannot help but to think it is ugly....but if is design to help those who have head injuries to play kendo... i think it is great invention....and yet... it is ugly... :p

[still learning]

Kote are something that breaks much faster and maybe could use some development.

And the majority of "injures" coming from strikes are from missing Do´s in my opinion. ..

I agrre entirely on the point about Kote being in more serious need of 'development'. Though not the most expensive part of the Bogu they protect a relatively fragile bone/area.

Also agree on the point about injuries arising from poorly-delivered Do cuts.

Good points, well made.........

Bill

[Super Kodachi2]

I heard recently that the ZNKR is considering a ban on the black men (ie the inside strip being black instead of red). If they are even contemplating a ban on this small thing then it says a lot about their willingness to bend tradition.


Really? Bugger my men has a black lining! Will this also affect WKC EKC presumably?

Whats the justification for this ban?

[shred_lord]

Really? Bugger my men has a black lining! Will this also affect WKC EKC presumably?

Whats the justification for this ban?Mine too. I don't get it, isn't rawhide still allowed?

[nonamehandle]

well, for whatever its worth, my experience facing kenshis with black painted men, is that i do not seem to be able to see their faces and hence their eyes as clearly as i do the other type of men...

[shred_lord]

well, for whatever its worth, my experience facing kenshis with black painted men, is that i do not seem to be able to see their faces and hence their eyes as clearly as i do the other type of men...I think that's purely psychological having been told by roughly equal numbers if it
A. Makes me harder to see
B. Makes me MUCH easier to see
C. Make no difference at all

[tad]

That 'new men' is hilarious! It looks like something made by the lego company!

I think it'll look good....on a life sized hello kitty.

[nonamehandle]

I think that's purely psychological having been told by roughly equal numbers if it
A. Makes me harder to see
B. Makes me MUCH easier to see
C. Make no difference at all

yup, i thought that it might be purely psychological...but then the fact that it has me thinking about it means that the difference has affected me...so being purely psychological, does not necessarily mean that it does not have an effect; at least on me, i can say with certainty that it does. it might be that with time and with practising against lot more black painted men kenshis, i will cease to notice it...but for now, i do.

[dwez]

it might be that with time and with practising against lot more black painted men kenshis, i will cease to notice it...but for now, i do.

By the looks of the tezashi website and how many black mens have been ordered it looks like you'll be facing them with increasing regularity.

I'm screwed with my rawhide one in any case.

[benwagner1988]

why does the Korean Association want to change it anyway? Surely if we want to be in the olympics we want Kendo to be in not some wierd modern variant of kendo.

[Winter79]

Standardisation is the way to go if you want to be in the olympics, hard to do with handmade items. That just my guess though.

[nonamehandle]

here is the latest...

went on sale starting last week for kids.
these men/helmets can be worn for grade school tournaments starting this year.
it would be interesting to see how many kids actually show up...i think the next big tourney with kids is sometime in august.

men/helmets for adults are still pending and of course you can not wear these in any other KKA sanctioned tournaments (besides the above mentioned) currently.

the public can now buy these if they want (i remember couple of people PM ing me about it before) and if you are really interested and cannot figure out from the attached picture, i can send you the info through PM.

http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helpm6.jpg

[Notlaw]

http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helpm6.jpg

I see they're made by HJC? They should offer good protection, HJC make cracking motorbike helmets.

[nonamehandle]

I see they're made by HJC? They should offer good protection, HJC make cracking motorbike helmets.

maybe a different choice of adjective here? :D

[Notlaw]

maybe a different choice of adjective here? :D

Ha ha. I maybe should have put some forethought into that choice of words!!

:emb:

[Alex]

This whole topic is fascinating. Is there anybody stationed in Korea who would be prepared to write an article about this for KW magazine?

If somebody is interested, please contact me at alex@kendo-world.com

Cheers

[zanzistar]

that new men looks stupid. all bloated head and rubbish. i want to look and feel serious, not all squishy head and bulbus.

[Karaken]

There are some people who are serious about this. I had a student who had a brain surgery and need some serious protection for his head. I tried to contact the person in YOUTUBE and the company who produced the prototype with no success. I know variety of your opinions, but as my student says, if the question boils down to Kendo or "No Kendo" the choice is very simple. It's not about tradition, neither about the beuaty of the bogu, it's about " Can I kendo?" I'd appreciate if you can help student to do "Kendo".

[Zornocology]

no sir... i don't like it. (http://www.mwctoys.com/images/review_renstimpy1_3.jpg)

who designed this thing?? it's seriously ugly. maybe if you could fine tune its asthetics and keep the added protection but for me, the regular old men just looks waaaaaaaaaaaaay better and offers me all the protection I need.

in the case of a brain injury student... sure, looks don't matter as much as functionality but i have two things to say about it.

1. could they please make it look just a little better??
2. should a brain injury patient really be participating at all in a sport in which the main objective is to hit someone in the head with a large stick??

I don't mean any offence with this but seriously, that's like being on a drinking team with crone's disease... I don't see how it's a good idea.

[Omnis]

I think this new Men is great, but what's with the wacky colors? White and Orange? Why is there not a classic indigo color?

[Hanmi]

Maybe this is drifting off subject a bit, but I have to add my two cents:

Whenever a change comes out of Korea (i.e. MEN), the subject usually drifts to the idea of the KKA and its "Sport Kendo/Olympic Kendo" Aspirations.

What is Kendo? Who owns it? Who can make the rules? Who should be allowed to decide (since we all love and practice Kendo)? What should it be called, what language should be used, etc.?

I liken this whole affair to chicken soup. Yes, chicken soup.

There is a certain form of chicken soup that is part of a long standing religious/cultural tradition of Jewish people, with matzoh balls, and other specific ingredients, going back over 1000 years (or more), and in such a form, is ostensibly a Jewish cultural phenomenon, eaten at Jewish ritual events and is widely popular among Jewish adults and children alike. As such, Jewish people should have the right to decide what is "Jewish" soup and what is not, right? Not Greek people, or Lithuanian people, or even Polish or Russian people (and especially not those Americans who make everything American over time). No matter how much they love that Jewish soup and eat it with great passion three or more times a week, it is ostensibly up to Jewish folks to decide what is "Jewish" soup, and what is not.

However, with that said, people of other cultures may have their own soups, or are are free to change the ingredients, add pork (heaven forbid), coconut milk, cayene pepper, tofu, etc. as they wish. But once the ingredients change too much, once it crosses a certain line, it becomes something different, and is no longer "Jewish" soup.

And all of these wonderful and honorable people are free to cook and eat this new and improved soup as they see fit, in their own kitchens and restaurants, with different music in the background, using different bowls and spoons, even calling the soup by another language if they wish, and disposing of the traditional rituals for making the soup.

However, only Jewish people can and should decide what the authentic, traditional "Jewish" recipe is, what is not, and what the makup and rules of a Jewish soup competition should be (even though the other soup teams are outstanding and win many competitions, and are even fun to be with). This includes not only the ingredients, but the techniques for making this soup (i.e. what is Kosher and what is not). Not that one is "better" than the other, but just different.

So, it is wonderful that the new and improved soup has a following and there is innovation, and it even tastes great. Heck, they may even sell millions of cans of the new soup with worldwide distribution, but let's not forget what type of soup it really is, or is not.

[dwez]

I tried 'Jewish soup' once, it offered no protection whasoever and didn't match my kote. Since then I only use traditional Japanese Men [or Korean equivalent].

[zanzistar]

I had a student who had a brain surgery and need some serious protection for his head.


2. should a brain injury patient really be participating at all in a sport in which the main objective is to hit someone in the head with a large stick??

I don't mean any offence with this but seriously, that's like being on a drinking team with crone's disease... I don't see how it's a good idea.

i kind of feel bad about saying the new men looks silly. you know i guess if it is absolutely necessary for someone to continue practicing something they and we all love then... yeah have the thing. im just worried that if it were taken as part of the "help Kendo to become an Olympic sport" thing then, firstly the rest of the world would think we all look weird with our massive heads (kinda how british rugby players look down on american footballers for having too much padding), and secondly it may be taken as the "official" head protection that we would all have to use in competition at any level... and i don't wanna wear it.

any how what i meant to say is, Zornocology, a friend of mine friend has been in a wheelchair for the past 5 years and he says the worst thing about it is people suggesting, or even out right telling him that he can't or shouldn't do something. he is his own best judge of his limitations even if he needs to make special arrangements to achieve whatever it is. i'd bet this dude that Karaken is talking about may feel the same way.

[Zornocology]

well, i'm no doctor, but if you've had serious head trauma i don't think there's any amount of protection that is going to fully protect you from being hit in the head repeatedly.

[zanzistar]

cool, yeah i get what your saying... but i think thats for him to decide if he is the one to take the suggested risk.

[Kent Enfield]

As I asked on the first thread we had about these when a video involving an earlier design surfaced, are these actually fixing a problem? In other words, is there any evidence that this type of helmet protects any better than a traditional men? And how much do they cost compared to a (a) a typical men or (b) a traditional men that provides similar protection? If they're supposed to be for children, they can't cost much and still be economically competitive.

[Zornocology]

cool, yeah i get what your saying... but i think thats for him to decide if he is the one to take the suggested risk.

i agree with that. but it's still not too bright IMO

[Karaken]

As I asked on the first thread we had about these when a video involving an earlier design surfaced, are these actually fixing a problem? In other words, is there any evidence that this type of helmet protects any better than a traditional men? And how much do they cost compared to a (a) a typical men or (b) a traditional men that provides similar protection? If they're supposed to be for children, they can't cost much and still be economically competitive.

As far as I know it was the motorcycle helmet company who designed the prototype. The narrator says it was designed for the better protection for OLD people and very Young people. Just because that comment, I suspect better protection was a primary motive. As for my Student, he saws up everytime and do KIHON practice withour being able to do Keiko. Breaks my heart. It's not a choice for him. He comes anyway with or without bogu. Sometimes he wears his men and ask us not to hit hard but that's taking a risk. He just need some more protection than traditional men provides.

[Hanmi]

As far as I know it was the motorcycle helmet company who designed the prototype. The narrator says it was designed for the better protection for OLD people and very Young people.

There have been plenty of kids doing Kendo for years with the existing MEN design, as well as old[er] Kenshi, and I have not seen any statistics or studies showing an injury rate because of the existing design.

I am aware of studies about various Kendo injuries, dehydration during summer practices, etc. that have come out of Japan, but is anyone aware of any studies on the subject of MEN injuries?

[cesarekim]

As a parent, I will try anything that gives additional protection to my child. If I read the image correctly, the men costs 150,000 Won, which is the low end cost of a child bogu. In absolute terms, we are talking about 100 Euro which is not outrageous. Having said that, I would want EVIDENCE of added protection. Until I see an impact analysis comparing traditional and new men designs including a force dissipation curve on the contact areas and noise analysis within the helmet, I wouldn't be too keen on the new equipment. My son has a traditional bogu. It's pretty protective when he is practicing with other children. Wouldn't want him practicing with adults regardless of what bogu he was wearing until Stark Industries releases the Iron Man suit for child kenshi...

[Kenzan]

*Sigh*

I just want to do Kendo.

[nonamehandle]

yeah the image says 150,000. i initially thought that this was not really cost effective...until it dawned on me that this men is "adjustable"-- i.e. no need to buy a new men for your kid every few years or so. in that light, the argument for this being cheaper than the traditional one makes sense.

i also note that though the exact details are not noted, there is on the image that i posted, a quantitative number comparing the "impact" of the traditional men versus this men. considering that this helmet manufacture is a very well known and respected manufacturer, i would expect that similar test as they do for motorcycle helmets to be have done on these as well. of course the exact details cannot be known until someone actually take the time to follow up on this ala Alex's suggestion :)





As a parent, I will try anything that gives additional protection to my child. If I read the image correctly, the men costs 150,000 Won, which is the low end cost of a child bogu. In absolute terms, we are talking about 100 Euro which is not outrageous. Having said that, I would want EVIDENCE of added protection. Until I see an impact analysis comparing traditional and new men designs including a force dissipation curve on the contact areas and noise analysis within the helmet, I wouldn't be too keen on the new equipment. My son has a traditional bogu. It's pretty protective when he is practicing with other children. Wouldn't want him practicing with adults regardless of what bogu he was wearing until Stark Industries releases the Iron Man suit for child kenshi...

[Karaken]

Am I to assume absolutely noone on KWF has any connection to this comapny or the prototype? I just need one Men to test it out on my student.

[Kent Enfield]

[I]s there any evidence that this type of helmet protects any better than a traditional men?


As far as I know it was the motorcycle helmet company who designed the prototype. The narrator says it was designed for the better protection for OLD people and very Young people. Just because that comment, I suspect better protection was a primary motive.


i also note that though the exact details are not noted, there is on the image that i posted, a quantitative number comparing the "impact" of the traditional men versus this men. considering that this helmet manufacture is a very well known and respected manufacturer, i would expect that similar test as they do for motorcycle helmets to be have done on these as well.

So the answer to my question is "No", it seems. Neither the manufacturer, whose goal is to get you to buy their product, stating "We made a safer men," nor the fact that said manufacturer makes motorcycle helmets are evidence. Until someone comes out with an independently verifiable and reproduceable force transmission curve or a statistical injury-rate study comparing wearers of this men to wearers of traditional men, there's not any evidence.

So far, this looks like a solution in search of a problem.

[Zornocology]

So far, this looks like a solution in search of a problem.

I think you hit the nail on the head

[nonamehandle]

Am I to assume absolutely noone on KWF has any connection to this comapny or the prototype? I just need one Men to test it out on my student.

Karaken,

the public can now buy the helmet.
there are contact number and e-mail on the image that I posted.

[nonamehandle]

So the answer to my question is "No", it seems. Neither the manufacturer, whose goal is to get you to buy their product, stating "We made a safer men," nor the fact that said manufacturer makes motorcycle helmets are evidence. Until someone comes out with an independently verifiable and reproduceable force transmission curve or a statistical injury-rate study comparing wearers of this men to wearers of traditional men, there's not any evidence.

So far, this looks like a solution in search of a problem.

interesting Kent,

i thought my answer was that it was most probable that such tests were done (though maybe not exactly the specific ones that you are asking for--i for one do not know what exactly you are talking about). it seems most probable that the requirement for the first part that you are asking for "independently verifiable and reproduceable force transmission curve" has been done. some other independent entity can now perform that same tests that HJK has done if they so desire. as for your second part "statistical injury-rate study comparing wearers of this men to wearers of traditional men" , this obviously cannot be done unless there is at least minimal amount of people who have actually used the new men.

i will briefly translate/paraphrase some of the "advantages" stated on the image i posted:

-reduced weight reduction of approximate 270g (1550g->1280g)
-three times less impact than the current men (50cm standard: 534g->160g)
[i am assuming this refers to the fact that tests has been done with helmet/men and the current men being dropped from a distance of 50cm, among other heights]
-pad to reduce impact to the shoulders and to increase risk of injury from tsuki
-easy velcro wearing
-adjustable size and height of view
-detachable inner lining for washing
-A/S (after service) for the mengane, pads
-variety of colors


note that the second part seems to be what you are looking for Kent.

[Kent Enfield]

i thought my answer was that it was most probable that such tests were done (though maybe not exactly the specific ones that you are asking for--i for one do not know what exactly you are talking about). it seems most probable that the requirement for the first part that you are asking for "independently verifiable and reproduceable force transmission curve" has been done. some other independent entity can now perform that same tests that HJK has done if they so desire.
Something "seeming most probable" does not make it so. By a force transmission curve I mean some sort of determination of the force or impulse applied to the outside of the men along versus what is transmitted to the wearer.

as for your second part "statistical injury-rate study comparing wearers of this men to wearers of traditional men" , this obviously cannot be done unless there is at least minimal amount of people who have actually used the new men.
Obviously. But evidence being hard to gather doesn't excuse making a claim without evidence to support it.


(1)-reduced weight reduction of approximate 270g (1550g->1280g)
(2)-three times less impact than the current men (50cm standard: 534g->160g)
[i am assuming this refers to the fact that tests has been done with helmet/men and the current men being dropped from a distance of 50cm, among other heights]
(3)-pad to reduce impact to the shoulders and to increase risk of injury from tsuki
(4)-easy velcro wearing
(5)-adjustable size and height of view
(6)-detachable inner lining for washing
(7)-A/S (after service) for the mengane, pads
(8)-variety of colors

I've inserted numbers to make my reply easier to understand. First, a general comment: none of the above means anything until we know what they're comparing. Now to the specifics.
(1) Reduced weight is usually good, but the general comment applies. I'm going to measure my men when I get home, though.
(2) If this is the test I'm thinking of, for which there is no evidence, it is a test of the futon not of the men in its entirety. The futon is laid flat across a force plate and a ball bearing of a fixed weight from a specified height (50 cm) and the peak transmitted force is measured. Personally, I don't think this a very good test of the men's performance in use, though it's better than nothing. David Pan's anecdote about his tezashi men before and after its resizing by Chiba Bogu exemplifies why: it's the same futon, so presumably this test would give the same results before and after the resizing, but the performance in situ changed dramatically. I used to have a link to the National Budogu Association in Japan that information about these tests, but I've lost it.

And again, this is the manufacturer telling you that their product is better. There's certainly a conflict of interest there.
(3) I'm assuming that "increase the risk of injury from tsuki" is a mistake, but given the configuration of the flaps, I'd believe it.
(4) The seems neutral to me. Tying a bow isn't exactly hard.
(5) This is actually a good thing, if it doesn't cause other issues. I think the location of the monomi is probably one of the hardest things to get right with off-the-shelf bogu.
(6) This is already available for normal men, I thought.
(7) I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean that it's reparable? If so, that's not anything new.
(8) Is this a positive? If that variety of colors were indigo blue and white, that'd be one thing, looking like a cartoon character is something else.

I've never said that these new helmets don't protect better than traditional men. I've concentrated on two points. First, is there evidence (not just a supposition) that they perform better? Second, is that performance necessary or beneficial? As the injury rate from being struck men is already pretty close to 0 incidences per person per time, it's going to be hard to show any gain.

Like I said, a solution in search of a problem.

[Karaken]

Karaken,

the public can now buy the helmet.
there are contact number and e-mail on the image that I posted.

Is that the images on page 1? I only see pictures.

[mugen no junin]

Karaken,

I think it's this one noname was referring to:

http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helpm6.jpg

[DCPan]

Frankly, it will be interesting to see how the size adjustment works.

After all, the more a men molds to your face/head, the less force you feel.

So, if something is adjustable, that means not all of the men is touching your head/face, which means there’s less area of contact to spread out the force.

Besides, if the front grille is bigger, which way will it move for you to adjust? If the excess grille is below you, it interferes with neck movement with the tsuki dare running into the mune or your body. If the excess grille is above you, that means there’s space between the top of the men and your head, which is counter intuitive, as that would add stress to your chin to hold the men up.

Then, there’s the lining up of the monomi. What about breathability? Is it humid in there? Would the material absorb sweat?

There’s also sound issue. Besides the sound hurting your ear, I wonder how that will interfere with judging in terms of folks use to hearing the sound of the futon. After all, people have said that judging ippon with folks using a carbon shinai is harder…wouldn’t that apply for this new men as well? What about carbon shinai striking this new men?

Lastly, lighter isn't always better, as the mass of the grille helps absorbs impact...momentum could be your friend....

[slidercrank]

...KKA... it's a clear attempt to "standardize" kendo equipments, so that they can have control over their manufacturing process and specification.

All that translates into more money for the said organization involved.

[Hanmi]

Sounds like a job for "Myth Busters"... with or without the matzoh balls :ko:

[Kenzan]

Karaken,

I think it's this one noname was referring to:

http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helpm6.jpg

If I'm not mistaken,
The price for these are:

Two bubbles,
a stick,

a big tree,

...and um..I think uhm..a.. lantern?

[Karaken]

Karaken,

I think it's this one noname was referring to:

http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helpm6.jpg

Thanks Buddy, my aging eyes can't make out the e-mail but that's another story. The image says it's for kids and adult version is planned.

[nonamehandle]

Thanks Buddy, my aging eyes can't make out the e-mail but that's another story. The image says it's for kids and adult version is planned.

yeah, i tried to find the page that i got the info from since that had the e-mail and number written within the post...unfortunately i forgot what the link was. if your student is an adult, best to wait for the adult version...i'll get you more info if i come across it

[nonamehandle]

Kent,

i don't want to get into post drudgery with you. my intention is not to defend this helmet/men but only to provide information pertinent to it since i think this development is of interest to the kendo community.

my reply above to you was because i felt that you had misinterpreted/misrepresented my post and that others who read your post (#124) might mistake my views, hence the clarification (#126).

[nonamehandle]

here are more clearer pictures and also one of the inside.

interesting stuff.

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hjc4ki4.jpg

from the top

http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hjc5dq4.jpg

inside

http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hjc6gz6.jpg


should make it clear for those who take account of these things: i personally do not like this men and question how necessary or better these men are.

having said that, if my kid (when i get one) tells me that they want to wear this men over the traditional because it hurts them less when they get hit...i probably will not insist on my dislike for this men to refuse my kids the opportunity to wear them.

we all know that one of the major dropping out points (double for the for kids) is when newbies get into bogu and start to get hit. if something like this makes it more likely that more percentage will stick with kendo/kumdo, it might not be a bad thing overall?...

[Notlaw]

You know what, I'm going to be in a tiny minority here... but I actually like it. I didn't at first but it is growing on me.

I think there is a place for new technologies in Kendo and we should not be so negative towards them, after all carbon fibre shinai are accepted now so why should this not be?

For competitions and seminars, then definately not, traditional all the way. But for club use, why not? As long as we do not let the traditional equipment get replaced by the new tech equipment, then I think we should be a little more open minded towards it all. After all, how many of you have an 'everyday hack' hakama that is made of tetron or polyester that you wear for club use, but also have a nice traditional cotton one that you keep for seminars and competitions?

I think it is important that the history and traditions are not lost; and that full traditional equipment is used for any kind of event. For everyday practice though, I see no problem in employing more modern equipment and newer technologies if it means better protection, lighter weight, easier to look after/maintain and so on.

Any thoughts or comments on that?

[zaemon]

Taking a good men strike from a high dan holder really opens my eyes. POW; you know you were hit with conviction. You know you are dead. And you know what? It does not really hurt, it's more like it stimulates the old thought process, like what are you going to do, now that you know you are toast.

The more you get hit the better you get, so why this sissy crap? Especially from the Koreans, who everyone knows, are the toughest people on the planet.

[Zornocology]

it's just not near as classy looking as the current men. the black and white arn't sooo ugly but the orange just plain looks stupid. I know i'm opening the can up again for function vs form but...... man!...... that's ugly

[rcheung135]

I think an indigo color would have been a more respect gesture (the white one seems ok) to tradition. I mean, coming out with these colors (except the white) seems like a direct insult to tradition. I'm with the idea for protection, but unless these benefits have substantial proof to back its claims or reason for using this material, while still retaining some bits of tradition, I'd prefer the traditional Kendo Men anyday. Just my opinion at the moment.

Now, I also noticed that the demonstration people didn't look very comfortable... :\

[LarsCW]

Different men color would benefit in shiai.

They could say at a point that one would go with red(orange) and the other white.

This might be the idea behind it.

I don't like it either but then I have a traditional bogu without any flashy things on it.

[Mizukaze]

This looks like a neat idea, but I feel like I'll be wearing hockey equipment as opposed to bogu if I wear that men. It just seems like it's low maintenance, low liability, and low responsibility.

[sobasan7]

Hey does anyone know what kind of men this is (http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/sobasan7/Untitled-2.jpg) i believe it is a picture of Ohta Sensei (8dan)

[Kent Enfield]

Hey does anyone know what kind of men this is (http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/sobasan7/Untitled-2.jpg) i believe it is a picture of Ohta Sensei (8dan)
The regular kind with a patch on it.

[samurai80]

Yep. I thought Otha sensei had some extra, beefed up men...turns out it was just a leather patch.

[Maku-san]

This looks like a neat idea, but I feel like I'll be wearing hockey equipment as opposed to bogu if I wear that men. It just seems like it's low maintenance, low liability, and low responsibility.

My sentiments, exactly, Mizukaze-san! :)

Although, I'm leaning ever so slightly to approval because of the extra padding. I have a cochlear implant (bionic ear) and the processor and headpiece transmitter would benefit from all that extra padding. Then again, I can get the same with the traditional men with extra padding under the tenoguchi and over the processor/transmitter.

Mark :beard:

[rainmaker]

I personally don't like this. I always prefer old traditional style, antique stuff..

However, I might consider this for my 9year old son. Especially, when he practice with beginners, most beginners really hit him hard since they don't know any denouchi. Also, he is smaller than others so taller people hit backside of his men and that really hurts....



here are more clearer pictures and also one of the inside.

interesting stuff.

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hjc4ki4.jpg

from the top

http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hjc5dq4.jpg

inside

http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hjc6gz6.jpg


should make it clear for those who take account of these things: i personally do not like this men and question how necessary or better these men are.

having said that, if my kid (when i get one) tells me that they want to wear this men over the traditional because it hurts them less when they get hit...i probably will not insist on my dislike for this men to refuse my kids the opportunity to wear them.

we all know that one of the major dropping out points (double for the for kids) is when newbies get into bogu and start to get hit. if something like this makes it more likely that more percentage will stick with kendo/kumdo, it might not be a bad thing overall?...

[rainmaker]

This is what I know of about this helmet.

Hongjin Helmet (HJC), http://www.hjchelmets.com/, is world #1 motorcycle helmet manufacturer from Korea. Mr. Hong, Wan Ki, is the CEO of HJC and he started his business with motorcycle leather pants in 1970. He started to manufacture helmet in 1974 and started to sell to US in 1986. Within 6 years, he has number 1 market share in US and by 2001 his company become #1 market share in worldwide. He also spend about $10M in R&D for new product.


One of Mr. Hong's best friend, Mr. Dongsoo Kim, who is also a president of Korean Kumdo Association and also CEO of Korea Ceramic Co., one day complained about his Kumdo helmet. Most Kumdoin can sweat quite a bit during shiai and traditional helmet cannot wash. Since HJC is the leader of helmet industry, Mr. Kim suggested HJC to design light, durable, sanitary and shock absorb helmet for Kumdoins.

It took almost 3 years to design and produce new Kumdo helmet. He also get consulted by number of members at KKA and many kumdoins. New helmet can absorb sock even if someone fall down from 1/2 meter. Using special plastic, weight has been reduced by 15%. Instead of using men himo, you can tighten helmet with easy to use string.

They started selling new helmet on July 17, 2008. For kids, it is about $150 and they still do not have launch date for adult size men.

Their target market is new Kumdoins and children who need extra protection. Most parents who does not know about Kumdo would worry about child safety when they are in shiai or practice. I would classify it as “scareware.”

Their big challenge would be developing distribution channel. There are about 500,000 registered Kumdoins in Korea and actual number of kumdoins are about 300,000. It is not really big market compare to motorcycle. They can probably make more money by focussing on theri core business. Most Kumdo stores are small and do not want to carry many inventory in the stores. Right now, HJC is selling directly rather than selling thru channels. It has been almost one month since they have launched this Kumdo helmet but we cannot find any information about this product, not even from HJC’s website.

The biggest potential market is in Japan, who has about 5million Kendo population. However, most Kendokas in Japan prefers traditional ways of Kendo, this might be big challenge for HJC to find distribution channel or create demand in Japan.

[Peter West]

Looks like a low budget alien of the original Star Trek series.

[Hyarion]

I personally don't like this. I always prefer old traditional style, antique stuff..

However, I might consider this for my 9year old son. Especially, when he practice with beginners, most beginners really hit him hard since they don't know any denouchi. Also, he is smaller than others so taller people hit backside of his men and that really hurts....

You can always add some padding to his men. Actually, this might be a good idea: buy a slightly bigger men and glue in some foam on top. As he grows and gets better you can take out the foam and you won't have to buy a new men.

[sobasan7]

The regular kind with a patch on it.
Thank you!

[rainmaker]

If someone wear that new men to your Kendo class, would you kick him out ???

[Hyarion]

If someone wear that new men to your Kendo class, would you kick him out ???

If I were the leader of the dojo, yes.

[hl1978]

If it is for kids it sounds like a great idea. Not having to tie men himo would be advantageous for them. If it hurts less it should keep more kids interested in kendo.

I have a feeling most people object to it from colors and sense of "tradition" more than anything else.

[Hyarion]

If it is for kids it sounds like a great idea. Not having to tie men himo would be advantageous for them.

I don't think making things easier for kids will do them any good in the long run. Tying men-himo was hard for all of us at first, but then we learnt how to do it and at some point it became second-nature. Kids can learn like this too, they are just too stubborn sometimes.

Kendo is as much a fight against yourself (I want it to be easier, I don't want to do this) as against anyone else. Kids have to go through this too. And perhaps: the earlier the better.

[Cutie_honey]

If I were the leader of the dojo, yes.

Why?

I would think that if you were a leader of a dojo, your focus should be to encourage people to do kendo, not exclude them

[Zornocology]

i know i'm gonna sound like a horrible person when i say this but... meh.... "sometimes the worst is the best" -Rashoman

People these days are far too lazy and undisciplined. They're always looking for easier ways to do things.. one of the main features which drew me into kendo is that there really is no easy way around anything. It takes sheer dedication, force of will and resoluteness in all aspects. You have to work for it. I'm against anything that changes that. You are right, those of you who say that this new men and other "advancements" like this will keep more people in kendo but I personally don't care if lazy ppl stay in kendo or not. If you can't make the effort to tie your men what other shorcuts are you looking for? As for more protection and hurting less? Don't buy cheap men! Or get a men pad! a second tenugui! Something...I think it's also been mentioned that as of yet we don't even have a solid indication that this men makes kendo hurt any less. I have never experiences pain from a men cut to be quite honest and we have looooots of beginners in our club, so I know I'm being hit quite hard. Again, I know I sound like a dick here but if you can't take the little bit of pain that's associated with kendo, what on earth are you doing training in martial arts? go join a basket weaving club or something.

[rcheung135]

If you allow an alternative men like this to be used, they will for other alternatives to other issues, imo. And with this comes a whole new realm of ninjery and kendo blasphemy. :O

[hl1978]

I don't think making things easier for kids will do them any good in the long run. Tying men-himo was hard for all of us at first, but then we learnt how to do it and at some point it became second-nature. Kids can learn like this too, they are just too stubborn sometimes.

Kendo is as much a fight against yourself (I want it to be easier, I don't want to do this) as against anyone else. Kids have to go through this too. And perhaps: the earlier the better.

I'm an engineer, not a traditionalist, so I hold no romantic attachment to bogu design. I've posted here plenty of times in the past my support for various bogu redesigns (better protection, individual finger articluation, improved durability, lower prices etc).

Ok how about this then.

If there is no need to retie himo, then children (and adults) would have to come up with other excuses to "rest" during keiko. Likewise with a greater contact patch with the head, assuming the men was on tight enough, I would assume there should be less movement in the men thereby not only providing better protection, but also distributing the impact of a menstike into the men intself and less into the child. Given that one is unliekly to spend a lot of money on childrens bogu (and corespondingly have well fitting bogu), this design appears to allow for a better fit with the strap rather than himo design.

It also looks to me like there is additional protection for tsuki. I am interested to know if such a design would be more durable.

If one wants to really get all traditional for training, for the purposes of "self improvement" then there are lots of other things we could adopt as they were done in the recent past. From what some of the japanese students have said, such things when done to kids probably wouldnt go over so well in the US.

[DCPan]

If there is no need to retie himo, then children (and adults) would have to come up with other excuses to "rest" during keiko.

The himo holds the "ten" (head rest) and the "chi" (chin rest) of the uchi-wa (men-ring) in a way that a single broad velcro strap simply would not. How your head and chin rest against the uchi-wa affects how you receive the men and the tsuki shock.

If you do multiple velcro strips to emulate the path of the himo, you might as well just do the himo.

YMMV.

[Hyarion]

I'm an engineer, not a traditionalist, so I hold no romantic attachment to bogu design. I've posted here plenty of times in the past my support for various bogu redesigns (better protection, individual finger articluation, improved durability, lower prices etc).

Ok how about this then.

If there is no need to retie himo, then children (and adults) would have to come up with other excuses to "rest" during keiko. Likewise with a greater contact patch with the head, assuming the men was on tight enough, I would assume there should be less movement in the men thereby not only providing better protection, but also distributing the impact of a menstike into the men intself and less into the child. Given that one is unliekly to spend a lot of money on childrens bogu (and corespondingly have well fitting bogu), this design appears to allow for a better fit with the strap rather than himo design.

I don't think my bogu could get any "better"... I'm not sure what you mean by this? I don't think changing anything on my bogu will make my kendo better. And regarding prices, children's bogu can get expensive, but if you buy cheep 6mm bogu, and buy it a little bigger than they are now and add some padding, it shouldn't be that expensive. Or try second-hand? Anyway, I'm not sure if I would let my children get wacked on the head before the age of... er, I dono, maybe 8 or so? Is there any information about this? They can do suburi before that.


It also looks to me like there is additional protection for tsuki. I am interested to know if such a design would be more durable.

I hope children are not encouraged to do tsuki....


If one wants to really get all traditional for training, for the purposes of "self improvement" then there are lots of other things we could adopt as they were done in the recent past. From what some of the japanese students have said, such things when done to kids probably wouldnt go over so well in the US.

'Tradition' seems to have some bad connotations here. I wouldn't suggest going back to any old stuff, but only that we should leave things as they are now, because there isn't any reason to change. Of course, if a reason pops up, like brain damage in children, then we need to change it, but children have been wearing for a long time and seem fine...

[Hyarion]

Why?

I would think that if you were a leader of a dojo, your focus should be to encourage people to do kendo, not exclude them

Yea, I wouldn't send them off outright, I'd probably let them stay on the condition that they were getting a proper men in the future.

[rainmaker]

So you wouldn't kick him out now ??


Yea, I wouldn't send them off outright, I'd probably let them stay on the condition that they were getting a proper men in the future.

[Maku-san]

Yea, I wouldn't send them off outright, I'd probably let them stay on the condition that they were getting a proper men in the future.

We'd be sh*t outta luck if the JKNR formally adopts this shizzle. :eek:

[rainmaker]

Is outfit really matter to practice your kendo ? It maybe awkward to see someone comes to our dojo with different outfit. But I would care more about doing my kendo. I am just tired of analyzing someone else's Kendo. You may say I am focussing on sports kendo, or I am being selfish. But that is not true. I still love traditional Kendo bogu, smell, texture, shape and everything. Someone once told me I should focus on harmonization, drop my ego and do my own kendo.. I don't know what that mean yet, somehow, this is related to that issue...

[hl1978]

I don't think my bogu could get any "better"... I'm not sure what you mean by this? I don't think changing anything on my bogu will make my kendo better. And regarding prices, children's bogu can get expensive, but if you buy cheep 6mm bogu, and buy it a little bigger than they are now and add some padding, it shouldn't be that expensive. Or try second-hand? Anyway, I'm not sure if I would let my children get wacked on the head before the age of... er, I dono, maybe 8 or so? Is there any information about this? They can do suburi before that.

I would stremously disagree that bogu can not be improved. I am sure you have had one of the following experiences:

1) Wife/girlfriend complains about how your bogu smells while airing it out or how you smell after wearing it?

2) Ill fitting loaner bogu

3) Break in times for new bogu (less flexbility, more painful when receiving strikes)

4) bumped into other groups of people during keiko due to poor peripheral vison


There are plenty of ways that bogu could be "better", some of which would improve ones kendo, some of which would not improve kendo itself but have other benefits (durability, pricing, protection etc). That being said, most people seem to be happy enough with bogu in their present form, yet others will adopt some more modern technology in their kendo equipment (bio treated shinai, carbon fibre shinai, wicking fabrics, faceshields for splinter protection etc). I feel that it would be realtively easy to make some changes to bogu design without changing the nature of kendo itself.

On the otherhand with bogu redesign you could allow for all sorts of other attacks, but thats outside the scope of some suggestions I will lay out below.

In general:

synthetic fibres to prevent mold/dry rot during extended storage, and less smelly.

preforated materials to allow for better breathability

use of velcro for more secure fit, ease of removal of equipment

use of straps and loops for more bogu adjustibility and fit

use of "wicking" materials to provide better cooling and quicker drying times (and less smell)

Men:

At the last seuskf tourament one of the Georgia Kendo Alliance competitors fell backwards and landed on her head. Men have no protection for the rear of the head. A full head enclosure would provide protection if people fall backwards.

Better protection for tsuki, in particular for people learning how to tsuki. Also would lead to fewer shinai being stuck under men.

Straps instead of himo. Easier to put men on and off. Makes it easier to remove men when injured.

one of:

Hockey/lacrosse facemask design, but with smaller grid pattern. Better visibility. Allows for more peripheral vison in crowded dojos.

Sanda/sanshou faceshield design to better protect from shinai splinters and better visibility. Allows for more peripheral vison in crowded dojos.



Kote

Lacrosse inspired glove design for kote:

Not only do they cost less than kote, but offer more protection for the fingers, wrist and forearm, allow for individual finger articulation (more so than naginata kote which provide more articulation but at a much higher cost) and more flexibility in the wrist. This would enable better tennouchi and improved grip. Also it would lead to less wear on kote palms for beginners as it is easier to learn how to grip with the proper fingers. (this was also a more common kote design in the past)

Adopt lacrosse preforated palms allowing better breathability and grip for shinai. Also this would allow for quicker drying kote which would smell less.

Less break in time because this design is more flexible out of the box.

Do:

Make the sides of do extend further up for taller players. Use straps running through loops at top.

Tare:

instead of tying in the front, pull through a loop in the rear and use velco to fix.

Summary:

Better protection, more visibility and perpipheral pereception, less smelly :) easier to put on, dries faster, better fitting and less cumbersome.

Improvements to kendo:
Able to go harder for longer due to better cooling and less pain.
Better grip and understanding of how to use a sword.
Happier spouse/girlfriend so you can practice more kendo with less complaints.

[shred_lord]

<flippancy>

You know what solve everyone gripes? Invisible forcefields baby!

</flippancy>

[nebosuke]

I would stremously[sic] disagree that shoes can not be improved. I am sure you have had one of the following experiences:

1) Wife/girlfriend complains about how your shoes smell while airing them out or how you smell after wearing them?

2) Ill fitting loaner shoes

3) Break in times for new shoes (less flexbility, more painful when walking)

4) tripped over or stepped on your own laces when they've come untied

A couple of minor modifications and your list of gripes can apply to something that orders of magnitude more people wear everyday, for greater durations of time, have a longer history, have far more designers and engineers trying to improve with a much broader range of materials that the public are not only open to but desire. Yet they still suck.

What's the latest advancement? Making shoes that are as close to being barefoot as possible, because it's healthier for your feet. (http://nymag.com/health/features/46213/) One thing they learned that directly applies, is that the more cushion a shoe has, the more force a person walks or runs with because they are trying to achieve a consistent amount of feedback. Make a more padded men, you'll probably also make a more hammer-handed student.

Bogu functions exceptionally well. It provides a tremendous amount of protection when used properly, and yet provides enough feedback to both students and instructors. Can more be done to advance the existing design using new materials, with proper development over time? Of course. But we don't need to just drop it all and dress up in deep sea diving helmets (http://www.antiquesofthesea.com/aos_images/helmets/1010_old_helmet_01.jpg) designed by Hasbro (http://hibachibaby.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/hasbro-playskool-mr-potato-head-darth-tater.jpg).

[JByrd]

I would stremously disagree that bogu can not be improved.

It sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me. Even if somebody poured the amount of research, development, and testing, necessary to prove a new design, I doubt all that effort would significantly improve on protection, or price point, exept possibly at the very lowest end of the spectrum.

I personally think Kendo bogu is aesthetically beautiful and elegant in design, and does an amazingly good job at protection for the weight, provided it fits properly, and is worn properly. I am concerned with getting a good set of bogu that fits me now that my old set is wearing out. I am not concerned at all that the choices for me out there are not good enough.

I also think that something could be lost, which is the tradition of how we look when we do Kendo. Why not swap the kendogi and hakama for a kevlar jacket and trousers?

[hl1978]

It sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me. Even if somebody poured the amount of research, development, and testing, necessary to prove a new design, I doubt all that effort would significantly improve on protection, or price point, exept possibly at the very lowest end of the spectrum.

I personally think Kendo bogu is aesthetically beautiful and elegant in design, and does an amazingly good job at protection for the weight, provided it fits properly, and is worn properly. I am concerned with getting a good set of bogu that fits me now that my old set is wearing out. I am not concerned at all that the choices for me out there are not good enough.

I also think that something could be lost, which is the tradition of how we look when we do Kendo. Why not swap the kendogi and hakama for a kevlar jacket and trousers?

If we are looking at bogu as merely a costume, I would agree.

If we are looking at bogu as sports equipment, I see no need to not advance it.

I'm also an iaidoka so that influences my opnions on kote.



Make a more padded men, you'll probably also make a more hammer-handed student.
or allow one to cut like one actually cuts during tameshigiri, but thats a completely different subject all together which I dont want to get into. My only padding suggestions are for the rear of the head for one someone falls over. Barr Sensei was on the ground for quite some time and the match was stopped after she fell. Padding at the back of the head would prevent such a situation, and would also make it hurt less if someone hits too close (not utilizing the monouchi).

[hyuna]

Even if somebody poured the amount of research, development, and testing, necessary to prove a new design, I doubt all that effort would significantly improve on protection, or price point, exept possibly at the very lowest end of the spectrum.
The lowest end of the spectrum is precisely where it would be important to make those kinds of improvements. The lowest end of the spectrum generally belongs to children and beginners, who are the least able to discern if their gear fits properly and least able to wear it properly, and among the most price conscious (since cost acts as a barrier to entry).

[JSchmidt]

or allow one to cut like one actually cuts during tameshigiri, but thats a completely different subject all together which I dont want to get into.

Well, you did bring it up, so how on earth will you design an armour that allows you to *cut through* the opponent?

[hl1978]

Well, you did bring it up, so how on earth will you design an armour that allows you to *cut through* the opponent?

You missunderstand, you can't "cut" with a shinai so you can't design armour for such an implment. Go read dialogue between myself and a SangWoooKim who also does batto, who discusses the very different way in which footwork, weigh transfer, push/pull etc are involved.

The summary of our conversation was that he had to keep his batto style cuts separate from kendo style for two reasons

A) his partners complained about how hard the cuts were (remember in tameshigiri, you dont pull your cuts up. if we were to cut tameshigiri style your sword would rest on top of men/kote and would slide after impact, thereby increasing the level of force put into your opponent rather than be pulled up or bounce up aftewards). If you were to recieve cuts in such a manner on a regular basis, you would desire more padding.

B) It is notably slower.



Oh man, took me about a year before I stopped actively telling myself "get ippon not cut through the head, get ippon not cut through the head"....and I still catch my self doing it every once in awhile.


Now what is interesting is that I've tried tamesigiri using kendo technique. Small waza hacks the tatami and pushes it forward knocking it over, big waza will hack deeper but because of the lunge will still push it over. Kote can be done as well, but it just hacks and at most superficial. The do cut in kendo can cut pretty well because it's like a kesa, however most kendoist do their do without the proper hasuji from what I've seen but it's probaly because the handle is round so you lose track. Hope that helps

I agree with Neil on our previous discussions on this topic, for kendo as we know it today, we dont need to hit anyone in such a manner any more, and it isn't scored in such a manner.

I further reiterate, I only suggest padding in the back of the men, not under the menbuton. I;m not going to discuss tameshigiri style cutting further on a bogu thread.

[JSchmidt]

You missunderstand, you can't "cut" with a shinai so you can't design armour for such an implment. Go read dialogue between myself and a SangWoooKim who also does batto, who discusses the very different way in which footwork, weigh transfer, push/pull etc are involved.

Which is exactly my point..so why bring it up? Kendo is kendo, batto/iai is batto/iai.

[Maku-san]

<flippancy>

You know what solve everyone gripes? Invisible forcefields baby!

</flippancy>

You've been watching too much "Dune", Shredder-san! :laugh:

[Hyarion]

1) Wife/girlfriend complains about how your bogu smells while airing it out or how you smell after wearing it?

My girlfriend does kendo, so she loves the smell too. Listen, if your girlfriend/wife can't deal with the smell of your sweat, or she doesn't want to help you by washing your gi/hakama once a week, then there might be a bit more going on than just the smell?


2) Ill fitting loaner bogu

Don't borrow bogu? This is not a good reason to change the design of bogu!


3) Break in times for new bogu (less flexbility, more painful when receiving strikes)

This is part of kendo. It is a part I like. Why do you want to take it away? To make things easier???


4) bumped into other groups of people during keiko due to poor peripheral vison

Again, learn to deal with it. Some teachers become so aware of their surroundings that they can sense when they are about to run into someone (perhaps because they saw them standing there a few seconds ago). I practice in a tiny dojo, where people are fighting less than a meter apart, and we almost never hit each other.


Summary:

Better protection, more visibility and perpipheral pereception, less smelly :) easier to put on, dries faster, better fitting and less cumbersome.

Protection is fine. I have not heard of any kendo injuries because the protection was not good enough. Of course, there are injuries because people do things wrong, so you want to change all the bogu simply because some idiots hit other people in the side of the head? What will happen then? Everyone will become less cautious, everyone will start waking away. In fact, I think this is an important part of kendo: I treat my opponent how I want to be treated.


Improvements to kendo:
Able to go harder for longer due to better cooling and less pain.
Better grip and understanding of how to use a sword.
Happier spouse/girlfriend so you can practice more kendo with less complaints.

About cooling, I agree, which is why you can buy summer kendogi (lighter and more breathable). Pain: deal with it. Better grip.... listen, how long have you been doing kendo? An understanding of the correct grip will come with time. Kote are fine.


Bogu functions exceptionally well. It provides a tremendous amount of protection when used properly, and yet provides enough feedback to both students and instructors. Can more be done to advance the existing design using new materials, with proper development over time?[/URL].

I agree. But even if something can be changed, does that mean we should? I have never considered myself "traditional" about anything, but I find myself resisting the idea of "improvements" in kendo for some reason. Maybe this is what old people are going on about when they resist changes to the way they do things?


If we are looking at bogu as merely a costume, I would agree.

If we are looking at bogu as sports equipment, I see no need to not advance it.

I'm also an iaidoka so that influences my opnions on kote.


I think you are the one looking at bogu as a costume that can be changed on a whim.

Well... no, you are the one who is seeing it as sports equipment, and that is the very reason you want to change it.

What has iaido got to do with kendo in regard to bogu?


It sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me.

Well said.

[xvikingx]

In general:

synthetic fibres to prevent mold/dry rot during extended storage, and less smelly.

preforated materials to allow for better breathability

use of velcro for more secure fit, ease of removal of equipment

use of straps and loops for more bogu adjustibility and fit

use of "wicking" materials to provide better cooling and quicker drying times (and less smell)
Sorry to jump in and put you on the spot by nitpicking a post that has already been dissected several times, but I wanted to point out that all of these things have been done. Some of these things make certain sets of bogu more affordable but they are generally targeted at children who can't/ don't take care of there equipment/ put it on properly by themselves/ etc. Through the years bogu has constantly gone through changes, some good, and some have made no impact, but these changes have never affected the shape and over all style of bogu.

[nebosuke]

I agree. But even if something can be changed, does that mean we should? I have never considered myself "traditional" about anything, but I find myself resisting the idea of "improvements" in kendo for some reason. Maybe this is what old people are going on about when they resist changes to the way they do things?

I'm talking changes in kind with those that have already occurred. Such as titanium mengane, technical fabrics for summer keikogi, etc. They're going to happen, some will stick and others (most?) will fade away.

[hl1978]

My girlfriend does kendo, so she loves the smell too. Listen, if your girlfriend/wife can't deal with the smell of your sweat, or she doesn't want to help you by washing your gi/hakama once a week, then there might be a bit more going on than just the smell?

As I said, if I was designing bogu there are a number of things I would improve. I am fairly confident that if varous technology which are available today were around when the first sets of bogu came out, we would likely have a different design. I'm an engineer, so I just can't leave well enough alone, its in an engineers nature and what we get paid to do :P

I think it is definitely possible to build a better bogu. The issue of whether there is a need to do so is a completely different manner. Most posting here clearly think there is no such need, but I think it is an interesting intellectual exercise to do so.

With regards to smell, I would prefer if my dojomate's bogu didn't smell so much. I don't think my girlfriend is nearly generous enough to go keep everyone else's bogu springtime fresh for them as well! :D



This is part of kendo. It is a part I like. Why do you want to take it away? To make things easier???

I think we all would agree that it is important to learn how to tie ones equipment on properly, but I honestly can't say that when I spent a couple years playing lacrosse that I witnessed people adjusting their protective equipment nearly as often as in kendo (as in almost never at all during lacrosse practice and we had more equipment to wear: helmet, shoulder pads, rib pads, elbow pads, gloves and got hit harder than in kendo).

This is a result of an older design.


Again, learn to deal with it. Some teachers become so aware of their surroundings that they can sense when they are about to run into someone (perhaps because they saw them standing there a few seconds ago). I practice in a tiny dojo, where people are fighting less than a meter apart, and we almost never hit each other.

I have trained in such environments in the past (Ken-Zen in NYC comes to mind where we were quite literally shoulder to shoulder), and had similiar setup today in fact. Having what essentially amounts to horseblinders on may keep your focus on the target in front of you seems silly when there are other options out there.



Protection is fine. I have not heard of any kendo injuries because the protection was not good enough. Of course, there are injuries because people do things wrong, so you want to change all the bogu simply because some idiots hit other people in the side of the head? What will happen then? Everyone will become less cautious, everyone will start waking away. In fact, I think this is an important part of kendo: I treat my opponent how I want to be treated.


Well I gave you an example of one such injury. Clearly not a very common occurance, but one which could have been mitigated.

At the SEUSKF tournament last october I got hit in the ear by a yoko-men that really was sideways (the guy got a point too :P ). More protection there would be nice for when things go wrong, just like the injury to Barr sensei later that day. Just because certain areas of the body aren't targets doesnt make a ton of sense to me to not offer protection in a contact sport.

You have to remember that I can't control the actions of another person. Assuming that kendo becomes more and more popular internationally, there will eventually someone will get hurt and lawyers will get involved. I would assume as a result there will be changes to bogu design as it has happened in other sports.

Given the litigious nature of the US. It is unfortunately only a matter of time :(




Better grip.... listen, how long have you been doing kendo? An understanding of the correct grip will come with time. Kote are fine.

I have no idea what your experience in kendo/iaido is, but if it helps...

I will begin my 11th year in kendo and iaido in a few months. Sure there are plenty here with more experience than me, but I would say I probably have a pretty decent understanding of how to grip a sword properly in both kendo and iaido at this point. :)


Speaking purely from a human factors design and engineering standpoint, a mitten design is a inferior design when it comes to grip and individual finger articulation (though many here will argue that it is adequate enough, which is probably true). There are kote design out there with individual fingers, its just not as common.


http://www.lausannekendo.ch/img/normal_KOTE00026.jpg
http://www.lausannekendo.ch/img/normal_KOTE00027.jpg
http://www.lausannekendo.ch/img/normal_KOTE00028.jpg

There are posts here that detail the history of fingered kote elsewhere, but I would expect the modern mitten design is done for cheapness more than anything else.



I think you are the one looking at bogu as a costume that can be changed on a whim.

I am referring to costume, not as what one wears on halloween, I am referring to the traditional meaning of the word. a style of dress, including accessories and hairdos, esp. that peculiar to a nation, region, group, or historical period. I think this is an appropriate way to describe bogu.


Well... no, you are the one who is seeing it as sports equipment, and that is the very reason you want to change it.

Exactly. In fact when I order bogu from japan its classified as "sporting goods" on the customs forms. Seems like the suppliers and the american government agrees ;)




What has iaido got to do with kendo in regard to bogu?

I don't "do" kendo. I don't "do" iaido. I <i>study</i> japanese swordsmanship therefore to me it is the same thing, simply different waza. Its a different outlook than I expect that most practitioners probably have (it is a bit more common in my current dojo than previous places I have trained). To tell the truth, I would probably be happiest finding a koryu style that actually wore bogu and went at it, but thats extremely uncommon to find here in the US or in japan.

That being said, I have discussed this with other people who do iaido as well and there is a consensus that there is a distinct difference between how it feels to hold and control a sword or shinai with no kote. As the purpose of seitei iaido is for kendoka to have a better understanding of how to handle a sword, it would seem in line with the philosophy to utilize equipment which would not only provide better performance, but allows for a better understanding of how to use the sport.

Again most here will disagree with me and for me this is all purely an intellectual exercise. I'm not out here to convince manufacturers that there is a market need, or to convince the IKF that bogu should be redesigned.

[Hyarion]

I think it is definitely possible to build a better bogu. The issue of whether there is a need to do so is a completely different manner. Most posting here clearly think there is no such need, but I think it is an interesting intellectual exercise to do so.

Ok, that makes it a bit clearer. I absolutely agree that bogu design could be changed in many different ways, but here is the point: to what end would you change it? That is to say: what aim do you have in mind when you change it? Is it to make kendo easier? To make winning easier? These are points I would strongly disagree with as they go against the nature of kendo. To make kendo safer? Perhaps I could agree to this, but it would haver to involve small changes, like unobtrusive padding to the ears. I would not agree to the changes this thread is about, namely that "new" space-suit men. And again, there is the point that if we make everything perfectly safe then no one will worry about how they are treating their opponents. Paternalism has to stop somewhere, and considering the ridiculously small amount of serious injuries in kendo, I don't think there is any need to change anything. Instead we could perhaps focus on emphasising correct kendo, so that no one gets hit in the ears, or anything like that. But even if we do that, accidents will still happen, and we need to accept that.


Assuming that kendo becomes more and more popular internationally, there will eventually someone will get hurt and lawyers will get involved. I would assume as a result there will be changes to bogu design as it has happened in other sports.

I doubt it. How could lawyers in America (I can't imagine people in any other country going to court over a kendo injury) affect kendo, which is based in Japan. Perhaps it will result in another split in kendo: Japanese kendo and American "safety" kendo.... lol.


Speaking purely from a human factors design and engineering standpoint, a mitten design is a inferior design when it comes to grip and individual finger articulation.

I'm not so sure about this. I'm not aware of ever having to use individual fingers in kendo. My hands and fingers act as one. There may be different pressure applied by each finger as I grip the shinai, but this works just as well in the mitten design as it would in a glove design.


Exactly. In fact when I order bogu from japan its classified as "sporting goods" on the customs forms. Seems like the suppliers and the american government agrees ;)

So? I couldn't care less what the American government thinks about kendo. And bogu is labelled sporting equipment because that makes things easier for customs.


I don't "do" kendo. I don't "do" iaido. I <i>study</i> japanese swordsmanship therefore to me it is the same thing, simply different waza. Its a different outlook than I expect that most practitioners probably have (it is a bit more common in my current dojo than previous places I have trained). To tell the truth, I would probably be happiest finding a koryu style that actually wore bogu and went at it, but thats extremely uncommon to find here in the US or in japan.

I'm not familiar with that, what is it?

[JByrd]

The lowest end of the spectrum is precisely where it would be important to make those kinds of improvements. The lowest end of the spectrum generally belongs to children and beginners, who are the least able to discern if their gear fits properly and least able to wear it properly, and among the most price conscious (since cost acts as a barrier to entry).

On the other hand, children do not require as high a level of protection since the blows they receive are not nearly so forceful. Also, precise fit is almost never achievable when we are talking about kids, whose size and shape are changing.

Adult beginners are a different story. When it comes to absorbing strikes from the big boys, I wouldn't want to trust my cranium to something designed for the lowest price point. I probably wouldn't opt to save a few dozen dollars, betting on something that has only a few years of testing behind it, as compared to a hundred years of testing and refinement of the classical design. What are the failure modes of plastic? I'll bet they are not at all the same as for cloth, metal, and leather.

[hl1978]

On the other hand, children do not require as high a level of protection since the blows they receive are not nearly so forceful. Also, precise fit is almost never achievable when we are talking about kids, whose size and shape are changing.

Adult beginners are a different story. When it comes to absorbing strikes from the big boys, I wouldn't want to trust my cranium to something designed for the lowest price point. I probably wouldn't opt to save a few dozen dollars, betting on something that has only a few years of testing behind it, as compared to a hundred years of testing and refinement of the classical design. What are the failure modes of plastic? I'll bet they are not at all the same as for cloth, metal, and leather.

I would be curious to know if anyone has done any sort of testing of the kind most new sporting goods designs go through with bogu. Clearly bogu has evoled over the years, but according to previous posts

http://kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=346834&postcount=150 it took 3 years to develop, and can absorb a shock from a 50cm drop (i would assume this refers to deformation which is a big issue for motorcycle helmet design and HJC is a motorcycle helmet manufacturer. when you drop a motorcycle helment, even when you aren't riding on a bike, you aren't supposed to use it again).

Seeing some sort of direct comparasion in terms of impact absorption would make for an interesting comparasion. If I had the time and materials stress information, I wouldnt mind building a CAD model of a men and running some simulations.

[Jordan Lavin]

In honesty they just make me want strike them harder

[Karaken]

On the other hand, children do not require as high a level of protection since the blows they receive are not nearly so forceful.
Excuse me? No children ever cried in your dojo when hit by a newbie gorilla?


Also, precise fit is almost never achievable when we are talking about kids, whose size and shape are changing. If you take a close look, the new men has a quite clever mechanism for size adjustment.



Adult beginners are a different story. When it comes to absorbing strikes from the big boys, I wouldn't want to trust my cranium to something designed for the lowest price point. I probably wouldn't opt to save a few dozen dollars, betting on something that has only a few years of testing behind it, as compared to a hundred years of testing and refinement of the classical design. What are the failure modes of plastic? I'll bet they are not at all the same as for cloth, metal, and leather. On the contrary, I think a new design by reputable helmet maker should be a lot safer option than black market 8mm men which icould be a lot cheaper than this. I am not crazy about the coloring but the idea is to provide more protection for kids and olds ( so says the initial youtube vid ) and I am all for it. They can't afford an expensive set but actually needs more protection. As for tradition? It'll take a while for them to differentiate and appreciate the difference if they stick around long enough.

[JByrd]

Excuse me? No children ever cried in your dojo when hit by a newbie gorilla?

I'm not sure if anything short of a motorcycle helmet would prevent tears in the newbie gorilla vs. little kid scenario. If I see a big person pounding on a child, I would not think, "that kid needs a better men." That problem needs to be addressed on the newbie gorilla side.



If you take a close look, the new men has a quite clever mechanism for size adjustment.

On the contrary, I think a new design by reputable helmet maker should be a lot safer option than black market 8mm men which icould be a lot cheaper than this. I am not crazy about the coloring but the idea is to provide more protection for kids and olds ( so says the initial youtube vid ) and I am all for it. They can't afford an expensive set but actually needs more protection. As for tradition? It'll take a while for them to differentiate and appreciate the difference if they stick around long enough.

I don't utterly reject the idea, but I'd like to see evidence that it really does all those things better than what's already out there. I'm not convinced that it would be a whole lot safer, given that the overall design is not that different from the original. The fit/suspension system does appear clever, but is it more foolproof in actual use? I'm not convinced that the materials would retain their protective qualities over many years of use and storage. The current design performs so well that I am skeptical that it can be improved without a lot of research and testing, and innovative use of modern materials. All those factors would tend to make it more expensive than traditional bogu. No doubt there would be financial liability issues involved with marketing something under the premise that it is safer for kids. But if they can pull it off, more power to them.

I suspect that one would need to return to the drawing board to get something that would represent an overall improvement in safety, comfort, and durability, at a similar price point. What one would get would not be likely to resemble bogu as we know it.

[rcheung135]

Has anyone tried it on yet? Some honest reviews would shed more light.

[Karaken]

I'm not sure if anything short of a motorcycle helmet would prevent tears in the newbie gorilla vs. little kid scenario. If I see a big person pounding on a child, I would not think, "that kid needs a better men." That problem needs to be addressed on the newbie gorilla side. Definitely YES but thicker helmet should help until we do that. Some newbies can't help themselves for a while.




I don't utterly reject the idea, but I'd like to see evidence that it really does all those things better than what's already out there. I'm not convinced that it would be a whole lot safer, given that the overall design is not that different from the original. The fit/suspension system does appear clever, but is it more foolproof in actual use? I'm not convinced that the materials would retain their protective qualities over many years of use and storage. The current design performs so well that I am skeptical that it can be improved without a lot of research and testing, and innovative use of modern materials. All those factors would tend to make it more expensive than traditional bogu. No doubt there would be financial liability issues involved with marketing something under the premise that it is safer for kids. But if they can pull it off, more power to them.

I suspect that one would need to return to the drawing board to get something that would represent an overall improvement in safety, comfort, and durability, at a similar price point. What one would get would not be likely to resemble bogu as we know it. I think that's what these guys did ( Motorcycle Helmet + Kendo Practinioners ) if the purpose was for the protection not Kendo performance, it may not have been that tough to pull it off. In any case, one of my students is trying hard to get one of these ( He has sensitivity in his head and the normal men doesn't allow him to practice ) so when he does, he will definitely give us first hand view of what he thinks at least from the point of protection it provides. If we leave the tradition part off the table, I think the discussion should really be on the performance and protection. I think the low end of the bogu should be focussed on the protection side..

[Smakfull]

You know what, I'm going to be in a tiny minority here... but I actually like it. I didn't at first but it is growing on me.

I think there is a place for new technologies in Kendo and we should not be so negative towards them, after all carbon fibre shinai are accepted now so why should this not be?

I'm with you all the way. Just like for you, these grew on me. Now I'm actually looking for one to buy for club use. I rent my bogu and have a nasty old helmet that really don't protect much and I can't afford a traditional new one.

Perhaps these can come cheaper.

I would rather die than show myself in one in a public place, but at the club: sure.

I was checking this thread to se where (if) you can buy them. I didn't find anything, maybe I missed it. Anyone know where to buy them?

/Anna

[Attica]

There is a counter-point to this new men that I don't think has been stressed enough: IMPROVED PROTECTION SHOULD PROBABLY NOT BE TAKEN IF IT INCREASES THE CHANCES OF HEARING DAMAGE!!!!

1) I do think kendo gear should be open toward improvements. Especially given new technologies developed in the later half of the 20th century. I'm sure when bamboo was first used I'm sure it was viewed with disdain since it was new. However, anything new would be MORE expensive than traditional bogu due to the exotic materials needed (after all, isn't bamboo a weed?).

2) I really don't see why you couldn't use a modified modern hockey goalie/catchers mask for a men EXCEPT that it is heavier (I believe), not as balanced and makes a loud noise when you DO get hit.

3) Which brings me to my most important point: With a traditional helmet in most sports (the exception being american football) hits to the head are rare and the helmet is for occasional protection. A hockey goalie might go a whole game (or more) without taking a puck to the head. A baseball catcher can go months if not years without taking a baseball to the head. Any noise generated by such hit are completely acceptable given the protection the helmet gives.

However, in Kendo you are CONSTANTLY struck in the head. If the men you are wearing (i.e. new men we are discussing) has louder sound (or whatever) to the ear drums then I don't see the extra protection being worth it. What you are doing is slightly decreasing the chance of damage to your head while significantly increasing the chance of damage to your hearing. Constant, repeating loud strikes to the eardrum CAN'T be good for it.

If it were a case where you were rarely hit in the head, then the exchange would be worth it. However, with a guarentee(sp) repeated strikes to the head generate loud noises I simply won't except the exchange for protection.

THAT is probably the biggest challenge to developing a modern replacement for the men. Not increased protection but increased protection without the sacrifice of louder noise.

Like I said, I actually thing IKF should be more open to modern bogu designs. However, I believe that anything that would actually be an advancement would be MORE expensive than traditional bogu due to material and development costs.

Oh, yeah.....I also believe the new men IS part of KKF pushing olympic status for Kumdo. I'm sorry, but there is no question that they want it and standardization of equipment would move this status closer, whether they state it is the purpose or not. Whether this is good or bad, should or should/not be done, who "owns" kendo or what is Korea's place in the world is another discussion.

[Karaken]

There is a counter-point to this new men that I don't think has been stressed enough: IMPROVED PROTECTION SHOULD PROBABLY NOT BE TAKEN IF IT INCREASES THE CHANCES OF HEARING DAMAGE!!!!


Do you know for sure it's louder or are you purely guessing? judging from the video, it doesn't seem that's going to be a problem to me. Anyway, someone is going to go there and evaluate for us all. We'll see how good it is and whether they're really usable for us ( At least for some who can use better protection. After all the disclaimer was that this was for kids and old men ).

[Attica]

IF it is louder. According to some early posts that is what some have said about it. Some being a quote someone on the boards read and something that a dealer said to the korean poster.

Honestly I don't see how it isn't significantly louder. Having worn various helmets in my life (plenty of football and catcher's masks) for me personally it was never about being hit it was about the loud CRACK in my ears from the hit. That's what always bothered me. That was my first concern after seeing it was "how loud is it when I get hit in the head with that thing on?"

If it isn't any louder then maybe it's a good thing. However, I suspect not.

[yoda-waza]

I...That was my first concern after seeing it was "how loud is it when I get hit in the head with that thing on?"

Eh? What was that you said? You'll have to speak up, sonny!

[Anonymous]

I think this is a case of "don't fix what isn't broken".

[Karaken]

I think this is a case of "don't fix what isn't broken".
For some, it isn't working ( for my student ).

[Attica]

Speaking of mens. I found this interesting. I wonder what year it was made.

www.masksoftheworld.com/Protection/zpKendo.htm

[verissimus]

Speaking of mens. I found this interesting. I wonder what year it was made.

www.masksoftheworld.com/Protection/zpKendo.htm

Wonder why there aren't any shoulder pads...

[Kent Enfield]

Wonder why there aren't any shoulder pads...
Because it's not a kendo men. It's a taihojutsu---arresting techniques---men.

[Fukuryu]

Speaking of mens. I found this interesting. I wonder what year it was made.

www.masksoftheworld.com/Protection/zpKendo.htm (http://www.masksoftheworld.com/Protection/zpKendo.htm)

I have no idea, but they seem to be not that hard to find today (http://www.mitsuboshi-web.com/taiho/index.html). And, as Kent said, not for kendo.

[ii_kangae]

Any reports about shinai damage? seems to me that a harder men would lead to more shinai breakage...

[JSchmidt]

Any reports about shinai damage? seems to me that a harder men would lead to more shinai breakage...

Who says it's harder?. I think it's just better at absorbing impact.

[Smakfull]

I think it looks softer... :eek:

[ii_kangae]

I just assumed with the plastic and rivets it would be harder...my bad.

[foundinsea]

The kid in the second pic doesn't look too happy to be wearing that. Can you say "break shinai often"? I play ice hockey and am a goalie - I understand the need for harder, lighter materials for that, but for kendo? Bogu isn't that heavy to begin with (trust me goalie gear is a lot heavier) and with the fibre do, it's even lighter (I noticed the difference after getting a bamboo do). Titanium mengane (Duraluminum isn't all that heavy either), dear leather, cotton...how much lighter to the Koreans want it? The whole idea of bogu is not just for protection, but to give as close a feel as possible to wearing armour. I'd hate to see what happens if any of those screws and multiple pins come loose...anything that is made to be removable, removes itself in time.

[foundinsea]

[QUOTE=nonamehandle;316627

these new men significantly reduces shock, so esp. enticing to korean moms who want to be assured that doing kendo/kumdo will not make their kids become dumb :)[/QUOTE]

Some of the smartest people I know are my senseis...and they've been doing kendo in tradtional equipment since they were 5

Picture 3 reminds of this (and it's Korean too ^^)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/dkfdnls/holeman.gif

[nonamehandle]

Some of the smartest people I know are my senseis...and they've been doing kendo in tradtional equipment since they were 5


and imagine how much smarter they would have been if they weren't constantly being smashed over the head :laugh:

people who are marketing this new men are targeting the parents of children. and any brief conversation with moms and dads should make it clear that few parents are "rational" as you when it comes to matters pertaining to their own child...

[foundinsea]

and imagine how much smarter they would have been if they weren't constantly being smashed over the head :laugh:

people who are marketing this new men are targeting the parents of children. and any brief conversation with moms and dads should make it clear that few parents are "rational" as you when it comes to matters pertaining to their own child...

how hard do you think a little kid hits :smiley:? and any parent worried about their kids doing kendo know they can get a head pad for the inside of the men.

i'd be more worried about all those screws, pins, and clips flying off :)

[rainmaker]

So is it wrong to give extra safety gear to your children ? Other sports have tried to improve their gear for better safety measure. Yes, I have seen many kids complain about their men all the time. I taught about more than 20kids last five year, including my son. Especially, when they practice with beginners who know nothing about denouchi. Again, even though I like traditional kendo gears, that doesn't mean kendo gear is perfect.



how hard do you think a little kid hits :smiley:? and any parent worried about their kids doing kendo know they can get a head pad for the inside of the men.

i'd be more worried about all those screws, pins, and clips flying off :)

[Karaken]

So is it wrong to give extra safety gear to your children ? Other sports have tried to improve their gear for better safety measure. Yes, I have seen many kids complain about their men all the time. I taught about more than 20kids last five year, including my son. Especially, when they practice with beginners who know nothing about denouchi. Again, even though I like traditional kendo gears, that doesn't mean kendo gear is perfect.
Here here, I think we have made these points many times over. I don't know why some ppl are against "More protection". I think we're going hear about the real first hand experience with the men. I can't wait!

[Keith Hong]

The link is to a review page at an on-line vendor:
http://www.kumdobox.com/FrontStore/iGoodsList.phtml?iCategoryId=22

The webmaster apparently ordered the new men from the manufacturer and tried it out himself at practice.

For those of you that cannot read the 3 part review in Korean, the reviewer's opinions are...
1. It's lighter than a standard men with duralumin mengane by 200 grams.
2. Hand-tightened screw is used on the chinrest for size adjustment. Also, lots of velcro. The reviewer is concerned about things getting loose and eventually falling off.
3. Shock absorption is excellent, apparently. The reviewer stated, though, that loud ringing(resonance?) was a big problem. Enough to cause headaches.
4.The megane is made of plastic - the reviewer worried that it might not be enough to protect against tsuki's and a shinai otherwise ramming in between the bars.
5. The adjustable chinrest is fairly uncomfortable.
6. The tsukidare is way too soft and offers little protection against tsuki's.

Those of you who can read Korean, read the reviews, please. Maybe I missed somenthing.

In my opinion, a possibly useful gadget for some people. I for one, however, would not get it for my child. I would rather choose something with a proven track record - like a well-made traditional men.^^

[Kagerou]

I think number 3 is enough to reject this thing. Shock absorption is nice but not at the expense of your childs hearing

[foundinsea]

So is it wrong to give extra safety gear to your children ? Other sports have tried to improve their gear for better safety measure. Yes, I have seen many kids complain about their men all the time. I taught about more than 20kids last five year, including my son. Especially, when they practice with beginners who know nothing about denouchi. Again, even though I like traditional kendo gears, that doesn't mean kendo gear is perfect.

I don't disagree about the safety thing; I'm all for safety, but here's some perspective for you - have you ever noticed how more violent American Football is compared to rugby? Or how hard a body check is in ice hockey (I'm a goalie and I've been on the receiving end of a few)? Seems to me that there is a mentality out there that says the more padding you add here and there, the harder I can hit you; something more subconcious that concious.

Additional padding only gives the "illusion" of safety. Kendo bogu has been around for ages and kendoka know the limits of their equipment. Proper technique also adds to the safety factor. You can't predict what will happen in shiai/keiko but you can limit injuries by the rules and teachings taught.

Problems with the men tend to stem from improper fit or not wearing it correctly; if you don't put on your men correctly or have it fitted improperly, you're just asking for problems (something I know you're aware of). It's the same with any sport...improper fitting equipment will create safety issues.

It's not wrong to want more safety equipment for your child, but personally I think it's more important to teach children and adults about safety in kendo and make sure that they learn how to behave. This would go a lot further than making drastic changes to equipment itself. Besdies, you can get extra padding for the men and kote, elbow guards, and if you want, a neck guard from any hockey shop. You can also do what one of the fathers at our dojo does for his son - use a terry towel for the tenogui...instant head pad :smiley:

Finally, yes I agree that kendo bogu is not perfect...honestly what is? But is the equipment so bad that you need a huge plastic helmet? :)

[foundinsea]

I think number 3 is enough to reject this thing. Shock absorption is nice but not at the expense of your childs hearing

Good point... :)

[easye]

I will surround my face with titanium and feel more secured than plastic thats just me