What do you have on your zekken? [Archive]

Achilles

24th July 2002, 11:28 PM

One of the things I've always wondered about is why the kendo/kumdo community is so conservative and resistant to change.

For example: Why are uniforms always blue or white? Why not red? Why not yellow? Would having a different color uniform *really* damage the game so much? Why not decorate our dos/hurries with images? Why must it always be black or gentle images of translucent maple leaves?

One of the things I like about my dojang is the myong-pan (zekken). For ranks below 3-khup (kyu), the myong-pan is White with the dojang symbol in the center (it's actually quite beautiful, the Korean symbol of the rising sun, a mythical, 3-legged plumed crow). For 3-khup-1-khup, the myong-pan is bright red. For 1-dan and up, it's indigo, with gold decoration.

I like the flare and color, and what's more, I like the fact that we stretch the convention a bit and help push the envelope. It's also helpful, because it gives a basic indicator of your opponent's rank at a glance.

durrell4

25th July 2002, 12:11 AM

I use katakana of my first name and roman for my last. When I had to chose way back when, I only knew a few katakana and I did not want kanji (meaningless I'm not Japanese). So I chose Do-Re-Ru (easy to remember) latter when I moved back to the states I kept the do-re-ru and added Rittenberg in roman letters. Funny I still get emails and cards to Mr. Durrell which is kind of cute.

alexpollijr

25th July 2002, 12:41 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Achilles
[B]One of the things I've always wondered about is why the kendo/kumdo community is so conservative and resistant to change.

For example: Why are uniforms always blue or white? Why not red? Why not yellow? Would having a different color uniform *really* damage the game so much? Why not decorate our dos/hurries with images? Why must it always be black or gentle images of translucent maple leaves?

I've seen similar comments in other places and times about this saem question.

Some might say that the sober look is drawn from the zen influence of the art, which would be true even if it's not so zen anymore to a lot of people.

And some might say that it's because of tradition itself, which is also a nice argument.

I myself would say that indigo and white are nice enough, so why change? Dodai and Domune come in various fashions and colors, especially korean ones, and that's fine if you want to add fashion to your practice. However, I believe it's a futile kind of thought, because what really matters in the end is kendo in itself, not how fancy you look.

But no, I don't think it would damage 'the game' so much.

PS. In the braz. championship and shinsa people seemed to hunt people with fancy equipment :D
which were all westerner beginners, mind you.

stakenaka

25th July 2002, 02:38 AM

I personally think that the resistance to change was one of the best things about kendo. Kendo is the oldest of all the modern budo, but among the best preserved considering that it is practiced by many kendoka around the world. Most of the changes in Kendo are usually done out of safety.
If you look at Karate for example outside of Japan: in some places they use v-necked pullovers rather than uwagi, and have very strange belting systems.
Personally, I don't like visual indications of rank. You can usually can tell how skilled an oppent is just by their appearance, bearing, and seme.

mingshi

25th July 2002, 04:00 AM

To all Western Kendoka:

Please, by all means, avoid using Kanji on your zekken!!
The name of your dojo in Kanji is fine, because it's (usually) suppose to mean something in Kanji. But your name... a direct pronounciation translation in Katagana is enough. It's kinda cool because using Katagana on your zekken would have indicated that you're a Westerner. But if you start using Kanji... You would have proved your misunderstanding of the Japanese/Chinese language.

By that I mean, on a Zekken, it should be your name and NOT some WWF players' title. I've seen people named themselves.... "Thunder Combat", "Male Deer", "Massive Rock"..... Which just make me laughed so much (from behind):D

BTW, I think you can customize your zekken through Tozando.... Because the distinctive Gold thread on the Nenriki zekken is from Tozando. (Yes, the Dojo Mon/Logo, Name of Dojo and my Full Name in English are all Gold!!)

olaf

25th July 2002, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by mingshi
...But if you start using Kanji... You would have proved your misunderstanding of the Japanese/Chinese language....

By that I mean, on a Zekken, it should be your name and NOT some WWF players' title.

(Yes, the Dojo Mon/Logo, Name of Dojo and my Full Name in English are all Gold!!)

- I have seen some pretty good translations of western surnames into kanji characters (well, what my modest Chinese profiiciency deems "good"). For instance, a certain Mr. Wilkin got his name translated into 3 kanji that meant (at least in Chinese) "proud and free flowing"...which I thought was pretty neat. (hmm...I guess translating it back to English loses some of the literary appeal) So I would say that if you can get someone who really knows what they're doing (Chinese or Japanese academic types, I would suppose) to do the translation for you, maybe it won't turn out as offensive as the ones Mingshi here has witnessed...

- Don't they call it WWE these days? Americans - please correct me if I'm wrong...

- Whoa...gold colored patterns/text on a zekken? Now, isn't that just as flamboyant as a bad kanji translation? What will they think of next, mini- neon lights and glow-in-the-dark zekken? I think Tozando has this zekken "customization" option featuring all the fancy colors just to cater to the gaijin (or "gwai-lo", if you prefer) crowd... smart business move.

stakenaka

25th July 2002, 12:22 PM

Personally, I do not like the use of Kanji for people not belonging to east asia. Most Japanese names are very simple and relate to nature or a location, such as "Among Bamboo" (Takenaka), "Black River" (Kurokawa), "Three Fields" (Mitsuda). Seeing names such as "Flying Fierce Dragon" or "Victorious Military Man" somehow seems unnatural.
I believe it is WWE... I haven't been in the States for a while.
I have to argee with you Olaf about the "Multicolor Zekken". Zekken should only be blue with white lettering.

Achilles

25th July 2002, 12:43 PM

Your patronizing tones are collectively amusing. Let me just remind you that there are THOUSANDS of Koreans out there using multicolored Myong-pan as a matter of course. It isn't whimsy, it isn't showing off, and it isn't some "gaijin" license as you so dismissively put it. It's simply a DIFFERENT system that has evolved on its own for a very good reason.

Let me remind all of you that kendo is no longer just a Japanese sport. It belongs to the world, and the world is beginning to make its mark on it.

I certainly would hope that if I found myself across the court from one of you that my bright red zekken would receive the same courtesy and respect as I give your blue one. Lord knows that I treat EVERYONE with respect, regardless of the color of anything.

In my opinion, it's the KUMDO that matters, not the color of your stupid zekken.

Sheesh.

kendokamax

25th July 2002, 02:23 PM

relax guys!
it's only a zekken. I don't mind anyone wearing anything other than blue or whatever, but for some reaons i find it ugly when there is too many colors involve.

However, I saw some kendo tapes from korea where the players have big number on their back..hmmm it looked so wrong!! Anyway.....
I didn't reply to the post where you guys talked about the korea team uniform....but i have to say I find it very stlylish and still looks quite formal enough.

I normaly don't care about looks....hm but hey what do you think about short hakama for girls ?? would be sexy :D

hmm I don't make much sense right now...

good nite

Kenshi

25th July 2002, 06:38 PM

It took me a few years of questions/investigations/hesitation but I recently got a nice new zekken with my surname in KANJI on it. I like it - its cool. There are only 2 kanji and the reading in chinese and japanese are the same and its not something stupid. I have numerous zekken, mostly with katakana on them but, having made the change, I dont think I would go back.

There are many who come from asia that take on english names for various reasons. The best one was a person I worked with in NYC who came from Hong Kong. His given name was Chan Hung, and when he came to the US he changed it to Wallance Hung. A Korean collegue changed his name from Ahn Kyu to Kenny Ahn ... Kyu (Q) being "too difficult to pronounce for non-koreans" !

My feeling is - kanji are cool but investigate thouroughly before making the switch. Know the meaning in Japanese and Chinese ... not from just 1 person, but many.

Antonin

25th July 2002, 08:12 PM

I agee with George (well, it had to happen someday...).
I also have kanji as my name on my zekken. i id not choose them to look cool: my Japanese better half decided that my name in katakana looked silly and that I should have it in kanji, and she chose some that would look nice and sould like my name. They don't really mean anything. Since I also have my name in Romanji anyhow, anybody can read it and known who I am ! i still think havin the name of the dojo in kanji is uninformative, though...
A.

durrell4

25th July 2002, 10:54 PM

I don't want to bust anyone’s bubble, but style and tradition are different. If you want to have a zekken with bright yellow fish and a flag from your country that is your style, so be it. But it is not part of the kendo tradition. This idea that kendo belongs to the world is rather one sided. Baseball belongs to the world, but the world respects the traditions e.g. Japan. In that sprit Kendo can belong to the world while retaining some of its tradition. The day I see some clown in a red, white and blue hakama and big McDonalds logo on his back is the day I feel kendo in its true form will die in the states. Look at the Karate Kid for what happens when we abandon tradition. Anyway just a thought not meant to stir the waters. In other words that my opinion but I could be wrong.

Durrell

olaf

26th July 2002, 12:10 AM

I'm right with you, durrell4. Unlike some people, I don't have some adamant resistence to westerners using kanji for their name. As in the case of Antonin or George McCall - perhaps they did their homework beforehand and managed to get quite respectable translations. That's perfectly fine; no clashing between style and tradition there.

That said, I would seriously have doubts against someone who spends much effort to get a kanji name translation, just because it's cool. It may seem cool to you, but to some, it may be a mockery of their art and tradition.

As to colors and graphic items, I am not as opposed to them as Scott. Indeed, traditional Japanese zekken are dark blue with white text, but as someone else pointed out earlier, Kendo is becoming something worldly in nature. Like how kumdo players have modified their attire to better reflect values of their culture, it is perfectly acceptable, I think, for people to use dojo symbols, etc. on their attire, as long as it is done with thought and discretion.

Where this "embellishment" goes overboard is with particularly "showy" colors/features, as in the case of gold text and symbols. If I didn't know better, I'd say using the color gold on your zekken is more for showing off a particular "style" or fashion than anything else. It's a bold fashion statement.

Achilles

26th July 2002, 02:25 AM

Sorry Olaf, the color gold is used on the Myong-Pan of every dan ranked member of my dojo, including our Sabomnim, who was a member of the Korean national team.

It is *not* showy, it it Korean tradition, and as such, is a proud statement of that tradition.

Kendo *does* belong to the world, and the idea that the "traditions" are somehow uniquely Japanese is ludicrous. Cultures and disciplines *evolve*, nothing is static, things change and develop. The Koreans will approach it one way, the Brazilians another, the Americans still different. The idea that the Japanese way is the *only* right way is narrow-minded at best. I'm not advocating Durell's McDonalds logo nightmare any more than anyone else, but I'm seeing *way* too much rigidity to suit my tastes here. . .

stakenaka

26th July 2002, 03:07 AM

It is true that I am considered "conservative" in my views of Kendo, but I do tolerate other peoples points of view.
However, I do agree with durrell. Kendo is uniquely Japanese. It is true that things evolve, but Kendo is Japanese. Kendo was born in Japan, developed in Japan, and Japan still does the best Kendo. Ettiquite in Kendo is Japanese. The only language allowed in Kendo is Japanese (or Korean in Kumdo). How each country approaches Kendo may be different, but I believe it to be in their best interest to maintain some of the Japanese traditions, otherwise Kendo may end up like western fencing, which has no real cultural history and no real spiritual development.

Achilles

26th July 2002, 06:19 AM

Western Fencing has "no real cultural history and no real spiritual development?" That statement is so ignorant I'm not even going to comment on it. I suspect that there are about a million western fencing devotees who'd gladly jump down your throat about it, and I encourage you to make a similar statement on a board that is frequented by them.

Kendo *was* uniquely Japanese. It is now spread all over the world. There are thousands of people practicing this sport in countries all over the world. Each of these countries contributes to the discipline and furthers it, and deserves to have an opportunity to have its contributions recognized. Why must we insist on the Japanese language? It does nothing for the game. Kendo would be no different if we said "please" before a match instead of "onegai shimasu". Koreans say nothing, and still manage to maintain a thriving kumdo community. Why shouldn't Brazillian kendoka speak portugeuse while playing? The point is sword fighting, not language lessons.

Kendo was NOT just developed in Japan, as you say. It was developed all over the world, in internment camps in the United States, in dojos in Brazil and England, by an extremely active Korean community who has their own sword tradition passing back thousands of years which has colored their interpretation of the game. Many of the Japanese expats who live in Mexico, America, Singapore, Taiwan and other countries spread and influence kendo there. They are citizens of these countries and consider themselves citizens of those countries BEFORE Japan, should their contributions be ignored?

Ettiquette in kendo is NOT Japanese. The idea of bowing and being respectiful of one's opponent can be found in similar disciplines across Asia. I have yet to hear a single valid argument as to why this sport needs to be stamped monoculturally.

There is a famous sensei (who coincidentally enough, lived in America) whose name I forget (ask Tom Bolling, he knows). He said "anyone who holds a shinai is a friend of mine".

Works for me. Open your minds people. The idea that Japanese people are culturally rigid is a fundamental misunderstanding of them. They are every bit as changeable as folks in the west. Developing kendo and seeing it evolve and change *is* keeping with the Japanese tradition.

durrell4

26th July 2002, 06:28 AM

I would have to agree with Scott. Kendo/Kumdo is a conservative Japanese based sport. That is what I believe draws many of us to its study. Although Kendo’s traditions are esoteric, there is an inherent “Zen” to it all which I am afraid is under attack here. I can see it now and again when I practice with students new to the sport/art.

Achilles, kendo is kumdo, it is not a separate art form its roots are from Japan and both cultures have lots in common, like bowing and other respect issues.

“It is *not* showy, it is Korean tradition, and as such, is a proud statement of that tradition.”

I have never seen any examples of this sort of thing out west, but it may be a part of Kumdo. I am curious when this tradition started and is it unique to Koreans? I kind of like the idea that you are as good as you are and that your belt is the way you carry yourself in practice. I think having more overt displays of rank would give those with high rank a psychological edge over those of lower rank. Sorry for the wondering response just a few thought I had.

Durrell

stakenaka

26th July 2002, 07:01 AM

Durrell is correct that Kumdo IS Kendo. When the Japanese occupied Korea they brought Kendo with them in the late 1800's / early 1900's. Why do you think Kendo and Kumdo uses the same armor, weapons, and techniques?
One reason that Kumdo looks different than the kendo practiced in Japan is that Kumdo is more like old Kendo (Pre WW2). I heard that Kumdo is in fact very similar to Kendo in Hawaii (introduced late 1800's by Japanese immigrants).
Also, traditional Korean fencing would be vastly different than Kendo. Korean swords are for the most part straight like the Chinese. Why do you think that the Korean sword Kata does a lot of stabbing? Straight weapons are more condusive to stabbing than a curved sword.

Achilles

26th July 2002, 07:21 AM

*sigh* Below is a direct cut and paste on the history of kumdo. I see that you experts seem to think that kumdo has no history of its own other than kendo foisted upon Koreans during the occupation, but apparently there are one or two Koreans out there who would have to disagree with you. Anyway, read on below this line if you're interested, apparently there are one or two Korean scholars out there laboring under the delusion that Korea has its own sword tradition dating back to the bronze age. . . .

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A direct translation of "Kumdo" is "the way of the sword." The art of the sword in Korea evolved from a martial art heritage reaching back more than three thousand years to the time of the Bronze Age. Archeological records indicate that the sword and its art were a part of daily life in Korean antiquity to defend territorial hold extending from Manchuria to Korean peninsula and early settlements in the Japanese main island.

About two thousand years ago at the time of the early Three Kingdoms period, the unique sword techniques called "Bon Gook Gum Bup, " or "Native Sword," were developed by Shilla's Hwa Rang warriors. The Three Kingdoms period marks a contentious period in which Koguryo, Paekche, and Shilla were in contention with each other and the Han Chinese for control of East Asia. Warriors in this period and the following Unified Shilla, Palhae, and Koryo Dynastic periods were known to be sword-bearing and to conduct their daily lives with strictly disciplined and moral manners. For every warrior the moral code was strict, but the discipline was stricter for those cherished honor above everything.

Many good examples of the warrior culture can be found in the Palhae and Koryo Dynastic periods from the 7th to 15th century. In particular, the Palhae Dynasty was found and ruled by the former Koguryo warrior class after the fall of Koguryo in 668 A.D. With the art of the sword and the disciplined warrior's sprite, Palhae was successful to conquer and to extend their territory from the Sungari and Amur rivers in northern Manchuria all the way down to the northern provinces of modern Korea at the first half of the 9th century, in the height of its power.

At the beginning of the Choson Dynasty in the 15th century following the fall of the Koryo Dynasty, some 500 years after the fall of the Unified Shilla and Palhae, the political and ideological foundations changed dramatically. These changes brought the elimination of the warrior class and their power bases in private soldiers. Thus, gradually, the art of the sword was limited to the state military which was regraded as inferior to scholars. Until the end of Choson Dynasty, the art was practiced and taught mostly by individuals in the state military who refined and developed the art under the name of "Ghihuck-Gum."

In 1896 during the era of modernization, the art of the sword, also known as "Ghihuck-Gum," was selected as a mandatory training requirement for the newly established police academy. From there on, Kumdo, the modern amalgamation of "the art of the sword" and "the way of righteousness" from the Taoist philosophy, was developed to be practiced by some as a sport and by others as a means of character development or spiritual refinement.

By the early 20th century, Kumdo training had adopted and utilized a practice weapon made of bamboo and lightweight armor that had been developed by the Japanese. This method of practice largely replaced the earlier, more dangerous, methods of training. Yet, the Kumdo popularity had been limited until early 1960 when the practice armor could be mass produced with the latest materials. When Kumdo equipments became easily available and affordable, the Kumdo population started to grow rapidly. Kumdo became no longer the martial art of the selected few.

Kumdo is both a physically and mentally demanding martial art. A Kumdo bout with a skilled opponent is an intense experience. For a moment, as one opponent faces another, concentration is absolute, conscious thought is suppressed, and action is instinctive. Such training develops the power of resolution and endurance under pressure which frequently affects Kumdo students' lives beyond the confines of the training hall.

tetsuoxb

26th July 2002, 07:41 AM

This post is approaching flamebait levels...... im not trying to fan the flames but calm people down just a bit with some facts. Got sick of sitting on the sidelines on this one.

I just wanted to add two things.

On a Korea site that sells Noble Bogu (don't remember the link) there is an interview with Eiga is asked about Korean kendo/kumdo and he says:

"There are little differences between Japanese and other players like Korean, American, European and so on. I think one should face to the other in consistent attitude no matter that is Japanese type or Korean type. Korean players have a fine physique and very powerful but I don't think they are special. "

I couldn't have said how I feel any better myself. I don't buy into the whole internationalization causes a breakdown in tradition argument that Achilles is putting forth. Sushi *was* uniquely Japanese, but now is all over the world, however save for some avante garde chef, I doubt I'll be eating foie gras sushi.... Cultural breakdowns are not caused my internationalization, it is a flawed argument, which history cannot provide any support for. Kendo was not developed in internment camps, it was already past a developmental phase. It was a Japanese sport being spread by Japanese ex-pats to people of other cultures.

Now, I think comments like this one are off the mark:
The point is sword fighting, not language lessons.

Although it explains his point of view, I really think it shows a lack of respect and understanding for the budo traditions behind kendo. The point to me is not sword fighting, but learning about myself through the applications of the sword. I agree with Achilles that anyone who holds a shinai is a friend, but my friend, you contradict yourself with statements such as a discounting of Japanese tradition then following such statements up with things such as this:

"It is *not* showy, it it Korean tradition, and as such, is a proud statement of that tradition. "

The conformity you dislike is a part of Japanese tradition, but you are supportive of Korean traditions. I may be misunderstanding you, but if the point of your posts has been to discount the role of Japanese traditions in a Japanese developed and spread sport, why are you so supportive of Korean traditions? I don't understand this contradiction. The many other countries with kendoka are contributing to kendo culture, not the development of traditions in the sport. Multicultural kendo is Japanese Kendo with kendoka from other countries. I dont think the Brazilian kendoka have contributed caproiera techniques into kendo, nor do we have soccer chants from the sidelines (as the proved so wonderfully evocative during the world cup) during international taikais. They are Brazilians contributing through friendship and respect for all other kendoka around the world.

I understand your desire to zealously defend the differences between Kendo and Kumdo (the rivalry between the two countries due to wars, invasions, and proximity seems to carry far beyond asia, all the way into virginia) , but please be accurate with your reasons and a bit less inflammatory with your comments. It does your argument very little credit to claim friendship while attacking those you claim are friends.

Kendo is Kendo. The traditions of Kendo are Japanese. This is not in dispute. If someone brings forth a traditional Kendo aspect contributed by another country, I will concede this point...

Kumdo is Korean Kendo. It is uniquely Korean from Japanese traditions. If the influence of the Korean culture is a colorful zekken or uniform, then please feel free to present this influence to the world. Yet please my friend, understand that it is, as you said, a uniquely Korean tradition and is not part of Kendo. So please do not take such offense when discussions of Kendo zekken find a Korean Kumdo Myong-Pan out of step with what they find traditional.

olaf

26th July 2002, 07:42 AM

Ok, fellas. I think Scott, Achilles, and everyone else bring up a lot of good points. But before this degenerates into another merits-of-kendo-vs-kumdo thread, let me say this much. Kendo, like many other forms of Budo, is inherently an Asian art form. In the process of the numerous Budo forms spreading to all parts of the world, certain groups have done a superb and laudable job of adopting each Budo's core values and furthering its study through the application of a new set of cultural principles. Kumdo, of course, is the example that comes to mind.

On the other hand, other groups - and in many cases, those less-informed of the traditions and philosophies of the Budo arts - have not done such a respectable job of contributing to the "evolution" of the particular art form(s) in question.

From my travels and fascination with the Budo arts, I have seen many a martial art become "tainted" when it is brought overseas and performed, taught, and "evolved" according to the dreams, desires, and limited understanding of a small group of foreingers who knew little about the real culture, history, and spiritual values behind the original art. I am sure Scott, as a conservative Japanese, would agree with me in this regard.

I must admit, this process of adulteration is far less common with Kendo/Kumdo than with the more "pop" flavours of Budo: karate, tae-kwan-do, jujitsu, kung-fu, etc. How often have you traveled in a Western country and come across a shabby town "dojo" run by some middle-aged fellow with a meager knowledge of some Asian language and giving himself a long string of fancy "sensei" titles in Japanese? Others, more daring, even venture to create their own "schools" of study... and quite often...the result is people with McDonalds logos on their zekken, flaming dragons and phoenix painted on their do, with kanji names like "lightning shaft".... the list goes on.

Of course, to assert that the Japanese way is the only way to approach these Budo arts is ludicrous, as Achilles pointed out. As with the example of Kumdo, the Korean approach has worked equally well, though some Koreans may argue that it is even superior! And not without good reason; Kumdo has developed into a respectable league of its own. And you are right -communities all over the world have, and increasingly so, are contributing to the thriving sport that Kendo has become. It would be wrong of me to single out any one of these communities and label their efforts "wrong" or "inferior". But it is very reasonable to make the objective judgement that some of these approaches have, despite their most well-thought intentions, in the process of spreading and continuing a tradition, spoiled it. The day you decide to wear a pink keikogi and play Kendo, insisting that the pink is reflective of a particular set of cultural values or what not - even if you show a most incredible mastery of Kendo, you have taken something away from the Kendo tradition.

Of course, we have to put all this in perspective. If a particular dojo likes to have their dojo seal or crest on their zekken, and teach a traditional, clean approach to doing Kendo, Kumdo, or whatever, what's wrong with that? But if "sensei-Bob" gives himself "Kendo, Panamanian 10th dan" and teaches all his beginners to wear white keikogi and hakama, play jodan, insisting that it is the "Panamanian approach" to Kendo, then something has gone astray. (Panamanians out there, please forgive me!)

Kendo is becoming an internationally-recognized sport and art. Its origins are in Japan, but as Achilles said, "it is for the world". It is a legacy for the world to study, improve, and preserve. It is not one for the world to embellish, manipulate, and reinterpret out of the non-conformist whims and fads of an ignorant few.

tetsuoxb

26th July 2002, 07:50 AM

I just wanted to add that my post is about the modern kendo that we are all practicing... kendo that wears bogu and uses a shinai, which we can ALL agree was developed in Japan.

Korea definetely has a wonderful history of sword arts, proved by the fact they bogged down the Taiko in two successive invasions of the Asian continent.

durrell4

26th July 2002, 07:51 AM

"*sigh* Below is a direct cut and paste on the history of kumdo. I see that you experts seem to think that kumdo has no history of its own other than kendo foisted upon Koreans during the occupation, but apparently there are one or two Koreans out there who would have to disagree with you. "

I m very sure that Koreans have a long history of their way of the sword as would most asian countries. I have been to central Asia, they too have a long sword tradition. Point being that there is room both. I think you are taking this a bit too much like us vs them. Kumdo seems very close to Kendo, close enough to say they are basically the same. I have and continue to practice with several Koreans and I often use Korean to say please and thank you for practice with them. Anyway I think the thread is loosing its focus.

zekken is handy
sometime I wish I could read more kanji so I would know who I just played with :(

olaf

26th July 2002, 07:56 AM

tetsuoxb/JP: Cultural breakdowns are not caused my internationalization...

No, but the forces of globalization, digitization, mass media...all of which empower and make internationalization possible, certainly have made cultural clashes and breakdowns ever more frequent and likely. The two forces you cite, JP, share more than just mere correlation.

The *changes* that many a Budo art have undergone, as I have explained previously, is just one of many examples of this phenomenon.

tetsuoxb

26th July 2002, 08:08 AM

Along with physics, I am also a big fan of sociology.

I subscribe more the salad bowl theory of multiculturalism. Each culture is a piece of the salad making a tasty whole while sticking to the origins that make it a tomato or lettuce.

I think cultural breakdowns are the result of the other culture embracing something that is not their own.....not something being shoved onto them.

In a way, these breakdowns are internationalism at play, so my statement was worded wrong.... but look at all the failures of international products, look at the fact most of us have traditional zekken, and it takes a cultural shift on the part of the "owner" of the cultural tradition for internationalism to change something. So cultural breakdowns are more a result of letting it happen than having it shoved down the face.

Sup

26th July 2002, 04:19 PM

Kumdo=Kendo

it's the SAME sport!!!!
Koreans have differant Katas and stuff but its the same [sport].
Or else we wouldnt be participating in World Championships and all. The sport Kendo(Kumdo) did originate from Japan.
Its just that other countries have their own 'way of the sword'.

When Koreans say Kendo is from korea, the focus is more
on the actual 'way of the sword' concept, not the World
famous 'Kendo the sport'. They claim that the first ever metal sword or whatever and the first actual organizing of Sword fighting katas and techniques SEEM to have been done and published in Korea. Good for us. So what?

Thats not the point. The Kendo(Kumdo) using bogu
hitting only wrist waist head and occasionally poking is
undoubtedly from JAPAN. And we should respect that.

On the other hand

A homerun is a homerun everywhere in the world.
But what about the infield hits, outfield hits and stealing bases and stuff?
You have u ur own words for those in your country, right?
The fact doesnt make the game any less BASEBALL does it?
The objective of baseball is always the same.
Its about coming 'HOME'.
And I bet every country uses the
english word 'home' to say home.

Funky multi-colored script logo Zekkens maybe cool and the Japanses might actually not be offended by em.
It could be that they just never thought of it. Asians have that distinct "if it works, why fix it" mentality.

Lets not restrict ourselves with too many voluntary has-to-be's, in the name of TRADITION

p.s. who would've thought they'd come out with PURPLE light sabres?? I think they're FUNKY~

tetsuoxb

26th July 2002, 04:28 PM

Took Jules the Jedi to get pimp gear into the order.

:-D

Achilles

26th July 2002, 10:34 PM

A few things I need to straighten out here: I am not the "flaming" type (that sounds bad). You don't have to worry about getting into heated discussions with me. I'm a mature adult and will not resort to profanity or pointless insults. We all need to feel like we can have a tough debate without real rancor. So, don't worry about "flaming", I'm not going there, I don't want to lose my debate partners. . .

That being said, I think I've been fundamentally misunderstood. I'm not championing Korean traditions over Japanese traditions. I'm simply saying that BOTH traditions are part and parcel of the kendo/kumdo ensemble and BOTH need to be respected. Kendo is constantly evolving. The idea that the Japanese conception of the sport a la the year 2000 is the FINAL iteration is nonsense. Things change, hell, we've got "dis" in the dictionary now. The thing that got this conversation started is that multicolored zekkens, which are a strong part of the Korean kumdo tradition are somehow silly or inferior to dark blue ones.

If, as you all seem to agree, kumdo IS kendo, that means that multicolored zekkens (myong-pan) are PART OF KENDO.

I'd like to see a little more respect for differing faces of the same sport, that's all.

With me?

olaf

26th July 2002, 11:26 PM

Good afternoon fellas:

I was trying to lead everyone away from the Kumdo vs. Kendo argument and towards the real cultural issues behind our disagreements on kendo attire, and how these differences have come to be, but it seems that my efforts are leading nowhere...

alexpollijr

26th July 2002, 11:33 PM

Oh, sure.

I just like the way things are. I don't think they *need* to be changed but if Korea, Malaysia, anyone wants to change, fine. Korea is the key of this question because

a) they are the 2nd world potency in kendo
b) they don't like the japanese
3) they're quite an inventive lot

My sensei, which is Japanse, doesn't like the black stripes in the korean uniform. I, who am Brazilian, don't think of it as a problem. It's just a stripe after all, and it looks Ok, it's nothing like, orange uniform with multicolor stripes all over. It's all about formality I think. As long as it doesn't make you look like a clown, it's fine.

Same thing for colored dodai and domune, if you want to, fine, it's irrelevant whatever it's black or orange. I'm a little partial on the subject because I actually think that indigo blue uniform with black Do looks very, very nice. Other might not agree. That's life.

And for the colored zekken/nafuda, it's even more irrelevant. Use anything you want, it's just about ID's after all. What would be the matter with gold letters or colored flags.

hamish

27th July 2002, 10:29 AM

The most common complaint I hear from Japanese about non- Chinese-character-using-people putting characters on their zekken is "yeah, but what's their name?!"

If your name really has the same pronunciation as 'lightning shaft' does in Japanese, by all means use the characters for it, but be aware that no-one will know what your name should be pronounced as!

Quite often the Japanese will, in jest, try to figure out characters that suit the pronunciation of your name, but I wouldn't, personally, ever actually use them. ('a collection of military secrets' is one I'm particularly fond of, but...)

(The most appropriate selection I ever saw was when one of my sensei gave my friend Alan the characters for 'confused about Asia' - a-ran - as he was totally confused at the time.
:confused:

The purpose of a zekken is to show your name and affiliation to your training partner, nothing more, nothing less. What colour it is is not, I feel an important issue, unless you're in a competition where the style of zekken is decided by the organisers.

Hamish

PS Ben, in honour of your 100 posts I think we can organise a special celebratory enjin kakari-geiko for you, I'll have a word to Lockie and see what we can arrange!

PPS Wasn't 'Lightning Shaft' a certain Mr. Holmes' first stage-name? :)

cklin

27th July 2002, 11:02 AM

Did you guys see the post under "The Wall" thread w/ the link to the kumdo video clip?

Those guys are wearing standard blue-n-white zekken.

David J

28th July 2002, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Hamish
Quite often the Japanese will, in jest, try to figure out characters that suit the pronunciation of your name, but I wouldn't, personally, ever actually use them. ('a collection of military secrets' is one I'm particularly fond of, but...)

A Japanese friend was doing the same for me for fun. My favourite was two characters that sounded very much like my surname - Weak and Losing :D Looking forward to making it to sandan and wearing that in shiai :D

I have to agree that the sense of history/tradition is a key appeal of Kendo for many (myself included). You can always make a case that just to change one small thing will make no difference - it probably wont, but before you know it George, say, could end up in a tartan hakama with a shinai that hums ;-) <quick, run away!>

<rei>

Dave

stakenaka

28th July 2002, 06:48 AM

A Kilt and a humming Shinai.... That would be pretty damn scary! :)
But somehow, it seems fitting...

ben

28th July 2002, 12:12 PM

RE- this whole kanji thing.

I had a less than friendly experience when I was living in Japan. I quite innocently asked a Japanese acquaintance to "spell" my surname in kanji. It took me a while to find out he had given me some pretty bad kanji. For 'Sheppard' he came up with "Se" (world), "Pa" (destroy), "Do" (manservant/slave). I only found out later (from a Chinese friend) that this particular kanji "Do" was used by the Japanese in Manchuria to describe the conquered Chinese and so has since passed from general usage ( a bit like how no-one names their sons "Adolf' any more). Needless to say I, too, am pretty wary of Westerners putting kanji on their zekken (maybe with the exception of the Irish surname "O'Hara" :))

But I can recommend for people going to Japan to train, it's a really good idea to get a zekken that follows the standard Japanese layout: country at the top in kanji (Ei-koku, Bei-koku, Go-shu, etc) and surname in katakana. Nothing else. You'll get a lot more attention from the more senior sensei if they don't have to work hard at working out who you are or where you're from.

b

Confound

30th July 2002, 04:48 PM

My name translates as "Source of Misery", or "Bringer of Misery". Personally, I thought it was quite appropos. My sensei retranslated, changing it to 'pure riverbank'. Obviously he doesn't know me too well. the sad part is that both the kanji he chose are obscure, and to get my name out of it you have to use readings that are so rarely used that they aren't even IN most dictionaries (then again, these two kanji aren't in most dictionaries either... i have a stupid name).

incidentally, the misreading of my name is sancho... i don't mind so much, he was a good character in don quixote, but still.

c

inner_cent

30th July 2002, 05:29 PM

Olaf: I totally agree with you....

This place is about discussion about kendo, not talking about Kumdo vs Kendo..... so can we please some how stick to it ?

Especially this thread is about Zekken, so stick to it. Maybe someone can start another thread to discuss those Kumdo/Kendo issue,

Achilles

30th July 2002, 07:41 PM

The kumdo/kendo issue has to do with zekken and the color of zekken. It *is* relevant.

sminki

25th January 2003, 03:02 AM

I'm joining this discussion way late and of course, a bit wary about possibly re-kindling an old flame, but I might point out a couple of things.

Obviously, people will take different views on this issue. In my own opinion (despite the fact that I AM a traditionalist), colored zekken is not a huge problem. In fact, it seems to establish a good system within Achilles' dojo with respect to being able to easily identify who's senior and junior, etc. Also, it might even give people a bit more sense of achievement since your rank is plainly there on the zekken for people to see and recognize. It's a pretty good idea.

Having said that, Achilles, this is NOT a Korean tradition. I'm Korean who have practiced in both Korea and U.S., who have belonged to both Korean dojang and Japanese dojo, and I only know of one Korean dojang (well, possibly two) that has that kind of zekken system. Don't get me wrong. I know Chang kwan jang nim and he's very respected, but keep in mind that this is a zekken system that he came up with. That color zekken system is neither employed in other Korean dojangs nor is officially recognized as a "Korean tradition" by the KKA which is the ruling body of Korean kendo/kumdo. It is just a system developed by Hwa Rang Kwan. The same goes for the white uniforms with black stripes are for beginners and indigo uniforms for yudansha thing. Oh, while I'm at it, the same goes for kendo sandan = kumdo shodan thing (this one is probably due to the fact that Chang kwan jang nim chooses to train his students so hard).

I'm not really crazy about people with non-Chinese based last names displaying kanji on their zekken, because as Hamish says, it does really bring up the question "what IS the person's name?". I feel that many do choose to display zekken more out of an image thing, but if it makes them feel better, so be it.

KhawMengLee

25th January 2003, 03:16 AM

heh...I just learned how to write my name in Chinese/Kanji(which is really embarrasing since I am chinese). The surname deosn't have a meaning but Meng Lee comes out as:

Meng- two characters meaning day and moon.

Lee-three characters. First being King/Emperor. The second is land and is combined with the third. The third character means mountain. Together they mean prosperous land. Overall it means King with prosperous land.

Meng Lee together means- Understanding.

God it was complicated to figure it out...but finally I have a reasonable zekken.

kendo_chick

25th January 2003, 03:47 AM

My name would be very easy to translate as both my first and my family names are nouns. My first name being Crystal. and my last being Rose. Quite easy... I believe it is translated as Suishou and Bara.

saki_wooah

25th January 2003, 08:27 AM

I didn't translate my name on my zekken. It's in roman character. But the thing is... My first name is Celine, so C. and my last name is Lam... so it's written C.LAM on my zekken! And we barely can see the dot so it's like CLAM....

nodachi

25th January 2003, 08:28 AM

I feel that people are free to do whatever they want on their zekken. It's like life. My name is Johnathan, but my friends call me Smoe... That kinda thing. You put on you zekken how you wish to be acknowledged.

However, I personally would go for katakana. My name cannot be translated to kanji, so trying to come up with a fake name will only make people call me by a name that is not mine and it will confuse them like Hamish said. I wouldn't go for romanji because I think it looks ugly compared to the japanese language. Of course I would rather have beautiful kanji on my zekken than katakana, but I will have to settle so that at least people can call me by my real name.

saki_wooah

25th January 2003, 09:38 AM

nodachi: put a pic of you on your zekken hehe

Paburo

25th January 2003, 11:07 AM

this is my zekken

| Œ•˜a‰ï |
| ”g |
| • |
| ˜Y |
|PABURO|

i originally had my zekken in katakana, but since there are another 3 guys at my dojo with the same name, and 2 with the same last name who copied my zekken, i had to change mine to kanji.
i like the meanings of the kanji used though: 'pa' wave - 'bu' brave/martial(as in budo) - 'rou' son/young man. japanese often read it haburou though. it couldn't be perfect.

BUT, some girl (who i won't name) said my name meant something 'creepy' in chinese... wtf...

meng, can you read chinese? or anyone? is my zekken that creepy?

here is the kanji if your browser doesnt support asian text and you can't see above:

http://paburo.cjb.net/hanko_paburo.gif

munenmuso

25th January 2003, 12:56 PM

At the top of my zekken, is the word Manila not "Manira" written horizonally, at the middle is my surname written vertically in two lines with katakana(BI,RI,YA,RO,YA) and at the bottom is my surname in romaji but not bastardized in Japanese and written horizontally. We don't translate our names in Kanji because we are not in Japan and it would be another name if we allowed it cause are names don't have meanings or so to begi with, hence we don't translate it to something that we are not or pretend to be just to make it sound like an Indian name like Big bear or Papa Bear, or Great Tree. The Japanese decided that it's just fine to translate it to katakana just to accomodate their tongues' lack of dexterity to pronounce our Western names.:D

nodachi

25th January 2003, 08:59 PM

If you are going for created Indian names, how about ganster names...

Big Bear or Papa Bear put the name BIG POPPA in my head!

Who's your daddy???

Sorry, white gansta on the loose, and I am a bit tired, I will shut up now... :)

Confound

25th January 2003, 11:06 PM

On the subject of bad names for zekken, how about 'House of Thunder that rides the flat wave'? Gotta love that one. Technically it's 'House of Thunder' and 'Flat Waves'. Exactly what is a flat wave?

c

munenmuso

26th January 2003, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Confound
On the subject of bad names for zekken, how about 'House of Thunder that rides the flat wave'? Gotta love that one. Technically it's 'House of Thunder' and 'Flat Waves'. Exactly what is a flat wave?

c

Confound,

Is that a koan?

:D

Confound

30th January 2003, 11:03 AM

I have no idea, Munenmuso. It's my friend's name, House of Thunder Flat Wave. Luckily he does judo, not kendou, so he doesn't need a zekken.

c

etherknot

30th January 2003, 02:02 PM

Ok, I'm semi-serious about this and I know I'll get either, ignored, flamed or both but...

I want to get extra tare markers for you know, regular practice. But I want to have big yellow smiley face on it for happy days or an kinda pissed off one for pissed off days etc.

Defeats the point of leaving your emotions at the door. But I think it would be kinda whimsical and get a snicker out of someone. Maybe a few million pushups from a militant sensi (see other threads).

And Confound; I think if your Judo friend REALLY wanted a zekken you probably would give it to him. I mean.. he has to REALLY want it and flip flop you all over the place first but I'm sure you'd surrender it to him :)

Confound

30th January 2003, 04:27 PM

Etherknot, I don't have to give him a zekken, he can go get one himself, he speaks excellent Japanese. He has even gone to the bother of writing his name on the front of his apartment, signifying that he is indeed, the House of Thunder on the Flat Wave.

He wants to start kendou, but he's as committed as a dandelion in the wind, blowing little fluffy puffs everywhere. Thus, I doubt he'll ever start. Besides, with judo and all the other things he does, I doubt he'd have time anyway. Admittedly, it would certainly be a funny zekken.

About the faces... You could always put them on the sleeve of your keiko-gi instead. That would make them a little less distracting. Not that I'm down with touchy-feely stuff, but still.

c

Kendoka

31st January 2003, 03:01 PM

When I started kendo, there was this really BIG guy. Sensei organised a tare cover / zekken as a present for him that had the name Godzilla in Kanji.

Used to scare the .... out of the little guys.

KATSUJIN

4th February 2003, 11:54 AM

hehhee.....oh well....my zekken has the name singapore in kanji horizontally at the top. and and, just below it my name, suresh, vertical. Dont ask me why...but kendoshop did it that way...rite now....i am pretty much the only singaporean with a english name placed vertically...the rest r horizontal......

Alicia

13th August 2003, 10:02 AM

For example: Why are uniforms always blue or white? Why not red? Why not yellow? Would having a different color uniform *really* damage the game so much? Why not decorate our dos/hurries with images?

Slightly off the thread topic, but a girl at my club has a purple hakama. There is hope for colour lovers yet!!! I dont know if it is a girl thing or a bad thing to do, but it looks interesting as a change from the usual navy and white.

Neil Gendzwill

13th August 2003, 12:35 PM

For example: Why are uniforms always blue or white?

Because they are uniforms. The very word means that they are all the same.

xvikingx

13th August 2003, 01:05 PM

My zekken reads: Death From Above
and has a a skull & cross bone in the center :ponder:

hehhehhehhe... Yeah right, I wish I was good enough to get away with wearing something like that.

Nishi

13th August 2003, 03:15 PM

Ive said it in other posts, but these zekken posts are everywhere...lol

Mine is a dodgy one as well...

____________
___Sai Ai___
____Nishi____
___Atama____
_WESTHEAD__
____________

I got the kanji for sai ai from an american/japanese calygripher(sp?) David was translated as Beloved, and thats more or less what the kanji say, Nishi(west), Atama(head), literaly. Westhead in english for those i have confused :D

If i ever go to Japan i will get a highly readable zekken, but in the western world, english comes first, as long as there is some reference there, have fun with it.

KeijockMuniz

25th August 2003, 11:02 PM

That´s our new oficial Zekken:

http://www.amk.esp.br/imagens/zekken.jpg

Dojo name above, Dojo symbol at the center (used to be our state flag, but since no one here in Brazil uses his states flags, we´ve changed to our symbol, an fenix holding a katana)

And for last, family name in roman characteres....

Parabellum

10th September 2003, 08:21 AM

There is a famous sensei (who coincidentally enough, lived in America) whose name I forget (ask Tom Bolling, he knows). He said "anyone who holds a shinai is a friend of mine".

Tom mentioned this to me too at some point. I might be wrong but I think his name is Omoto Sensei.

Mike

Wark 1978

25th September 2003, 10:30 PM

I've just thinking about what to put on my first zekken. My name, Michael Prime, actually does have meaning. Michael is taken from the Hebrew word which means "One who is like the lord" and Prime means, first, the best, of superior quality etc. There are kanji that mean the same things. If I was training in England, which I'm not, then I could get away with having this kanji on the zekken. As I'm not, I'm in Japan, I don't think that I could bring myself to waltz into the dojo at my school where I teach English and the dojo I train at brandishing the name "Number 1 God". If I was Musashi then maybe. I think I would be ripe for a pummelling.

After much deliberation I have decided to just put Prime in katakana on the zekken so they definitely recognise me as a gaijin, especially as my Japanese ability is not too good. I'll save "Number 1 God", "Walking Thunder Man" or "Leper Man" for my eventual return to England.

Ipswich Town FC rule.

aru-ma

26th September 2003, 06:02 AM

Neil Gendzwill

26th September 2003, 07:14 AM

You'd probably won't be getting that "number one god" on your zekken what you'd get will be kanji that will read Prime in kanji or mor accurately 'puraimu' and I can't think of any kanji that fits that.
I don't understand this need to use kanjii. You got a non-Japanese name, spell it with katakana, end of story. Anything else is just silly.

Nishi

26th September 2003, 03:24 PM

I don't understand this need to use kanjii. You got a non-Japanese name, spell it with katakana, end of story. Anything else is just silly.

I disagree (to some extent)...my name in katakana sounds nothing like my english name..Westhead comes out like "Besufuado"!!??!! So my theory was simple, if i get a literal translation it wont sound any more or any less than the real english pronunciation...i may as well have fun because my name isnt Dabede Besufuado any more than it is Sai Ai Nishiatama...lol!!! I actually find that when some kenshi see the kanji (which is helpful for korean and chinese as well) and with the english name at the bottom, they get a better appreciation for the name...of course they need an understanding of english or romanji as most do in the western countries.

Of course (now the extent), If you are training in an area where you have many japanese speakers, (or even japan) a katakana zekken will help limit confusion...because the name on the zekken is the name they'll call you, so if you get some dodgy kanji (like me..lol!!) get the name in english across the bottom as well.

Finally, do what you want, have fun...it really is cosmetic and the zekken translation is the furthest point from kihon (imho)!

mingshi

26th September 2003, 09:51 PM

I don't understand this need to use kanjii. You got a non-Japanese name, spell it with katakana, end of story. Anything else is just silly.
I can't agree more. Last time I fought Paul Budden (who wrote the Kendo Kata book) I couldn't concentrate. The fact that his Zekken reads "horse master" in Kanji totally cracks me up. :D:D:D:D:D

Please, by all means, use Kana. Kanji may look cool for you, but I wouldn't bother translating my last name into "warm/moderate"...

BTW Eiga's last name means Blooming Flower :rolleyes:

Neil Gendzwill

26th September 2003, 11:09 PM

I disagree (to some extent)...my name in katakana sounds nothing like my english name..Westhead comes out like "Besufuado"!!??!!
I think you had a bad translation. If it's possible to get the sound close with kanji, you can do it with katakana. Besides, most Japanese speakers reading katakana will understand because that is the purpose of katakana - to put foreign words into sounds they can easily pronounce. As Jenny said, when they see your name in kanji, they don't "pronounce" the kanji in their head and come up with an english name, they immediately think of what the kanji mean.

Please, by all means, use Kana. Kanji may look cool for you, but I wouldn't bother translating my last name into "warm/moderate"...
Why not? At least kanji for your name would be correct and if they use the Chinese pronunciation half-ass close to the proper sound.

Nishi

27th September 2003, 12:02 AM

I can't agree more. Last time I fought Paul Budden (who wrote the Kendo Kata book) I couldn't concentrate. The fact that his Zekken reads "horse master" in Kanji totally cracks me up. :D:D:D:D:D

Now thats funny...Did the kanji sound like Bu-Dan (or somthing like that?), mine has no phonetic similarity at all, only in meaning.

I think you had a bad translation.

Very possible, but if their going to call me funny names i may as well choose them...lol, so i went the eccentric route...being in england they mostly only read the romanji anyway, and those who can read the kanji look puzzled (just the sai ai really).

Kent Enfield

27th September 2003, 05:39 AM

I disagree (to some extent)...my name in katakana sounds nothing like my english name..Westhead comes out like "Besufuado"!!??!!I'd render Westhead as Uesutoheddo, which sounds a whole lot like the original. Who told you "Besufuado?"

Nishi

27th September 2003, 06:46 AM

I'd render Westhead as Uesutoheddo, which sounds a whole lot like the original. Who told you "Besufuado?"

That is alot better than the former...I cant remember where i got the translation, but i was told consistantly that there was no sound for "we" and that my name would sound like "bestohedo (besthead)....hahaha, forget it! But Uesutoheddo looks like it could work! Of course i will keep my current zekken to annoy Jenny! :grin:

I may be in the market for a new zekken in the next few months so i'll keep this in mind Kent....cheers!

aru-ma

27th September 2003, 01:43 PM

That is alot better than the former...I cant remember where i got the translation, but i was told consistantly that there was no sound for "we" and that my name would sound like "bestohedo (besthead)....hahaha, forget it! But Uesutoheddo looks like it could work! Of course i will keep my current zekken to annoy Jenny! :grin:

I may be in the market for a new zekken in the next few months so i'll keep this in mind Kent....cheers!

besthead? :D:D that's a good one, but FYI there is NO we sound in japanese BUT since since katakana are used usually for foreign words there is a way in getting around it, like using ti(??) ("te" and a small "i" not "chi") you could use "u" with a small "e"

hamish

27th September 2003, 02:18 PM

A zekken's for letting people know who you are, putting kanji on it may be OK if you want to be known as the idiot with unpronounceable kanji instead of his name on his tare.

I've heard more than a few Japanese sensei, talking along the lines of 'What the hell is it with these foreigners putting ridiculous kanji on their zekken, you never know who they are!'

David, anyone who saw the 2 kanji you used for your last name would call you 'Saito', as that is the obvious reading.

No-one thinks of the meaning, only the reading.

Mingshi, was Budden 馬殿 (Did the Japanese come out?)
If its the kanji I'm thinking of, you could also interpret that as 'Mr. Horse'!

Hamish

Nishi

27th September 2003, 03:39 PM

If its the kanji I'm thinking of, you could also interpret that as 'Mr. Horse'!

Besthead meets Mr.Horse! :laugh: Sounds like a good movie!!!!

Uesutoheddo has more promise i think...lol!...i will be at the British Open today, i will keep my eye open for the amount of western kanji style zekken i see, because i never really pay much attention to be honest (sept for my opponent, i do take names here)....I'll let you know for curiousity sake.

slidercrank

27th September 2003, 04:01 PM

Mingshi, was Budden 馬殿 (Did the Japanese come out?)
If its the kanji I'm thinking of, you could also interpret that as 'Mr. Horse'!

Hamish

殿 can mean either a palace, or a place that is in the rear (as in, an army's rear guard or one who places last in a competition). From my Chinese character dictionary that I've had since my elementary school days.

JSchmidt

27th September 2003, 04:20 PM

A zekken's for letting people know who you are, putting kanji on it may be OK if you want to be known as the idiot with unpronounceable kanji instead of his name on his tare.

I've heard more than a few Japanese sensei, talking along the lines of 'What the hell is it with these foreigners putting ridiculous kanji on their zekken, you never know who they are!'

Further, pretty much all Japanese I've met, regardless of their English capablity have always pronounced the katakana despite having it writting in romanji below.

Jakob

Hattori Hanzo

2nd February 2004, 12:44 PM

I normaly don't care about looks....hm but hey what do you think about short hakama for girls ?? would be sexy :D

good nite
Wouldn't this be considered Koolots? lol

Chopstix

2nd February 2004, 08:15 PM

Hmm...my surname in chinese, though a chinese letter, has no kanji equivalent:

http://www.imageshack.us/files/chen - kanji.JPG

Can I use it anyway?

Thinking of that or the katakana version of my anglicised surname:

http://www.imageshack.us/files/tan-katakana.JPG

Suggestion?

minjih

3rd February 2004, 05:53 AM

Chopstix/Andrew - You're chinese, the kanji character *is* your name exactly as it is written in chinese. I would say use it, you most definitely have a legitimate claim to it being used on your zekken.

...Min

Crash

7th March 2004, 01:05 AM

I belong to a kendo club. I am korean. I ordered on my zekken my last name in a korean character (with it in english on the bottom). I am going to be the only one out there with a korean character on? I am offending my japanese counterparts? What do they use in kumdo?
Thanks

Chook

10th March 2004, 08:38 AM

Well I finally got my first zekken last night after almost 2 years of kendo, and I chose katakana after doing quite a bit of research. My last name is dutch, and I think it came out quite well :)

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~dpds/zekken.jpg

Once again Min, thanks for doing the order! :smiley:

GrandCentral9

17th July 2004, 06:45 AM

I was planning on putting my name in hanja (kanji? chinese characters...) on my zekken when I got one. Unfortunately for me, my dad seemed to be in something of a whimsical mood when he chose my characters. Despite the snickers I may get, though, it is my name... So, if any of who you can read 'em ever see "giraffe by the lake" on a zekken, there's a better chance than not that it will be me!

(and my name has soooo many different variations... I could have ended up with a translation something like 'force and power,' which is what my grandfather thought it meant...) I swear... if I ever have a kid, i'm going to name him "red dragon" in hanja... now there's a fine name ;)

YAMAFELL

19th July 2004, 08:56 AM

My Zekken is simple. Kanji on the top for my club, that matches everyone else. And then my family name written down in katakana. Seeing that I can read katakana, and everyone else that is Japanese here in Japan, I figured it was good.

I would rather have a weird pronounciation of "FELL" my family name, then have Japanese stare at it going, "How the hell is that pronounced, oh god there is a dubble L how are the L's pronounced differently from R's again?" It saves a lot of problems in that area...

As a joke my friends where saying i should get the Kanji for Ochiru (fall) and then instead write Ochita (fall) in translation. Because it is my name. ^_^ If I am ever as my clumsy self in a shiai, People would understand why my name is that. (I have to tape my ankel every day in practice so i don't fall and hurt myself....)

But anyway.. Here is a link so you can see my Zekken.
http://www.geocities.com/hanamizugaderu/kendo.html

I am also easy and call Zekken, Tare-namae.. as many Japanese do, but hell i understand what each name is.. so i don't worry..

Yann

19th July 2004, 09:37 AM

Wow, I like your website YAMAFELL. Oh and congratulations for the Ikkyu test :P

On topic: I don't have a zekken yet :(

Nanbanjin

19th July 2004, 10:04 AM

A zekken's for letting people know who you are, putting kanji on it may be OK if you want to be known as the idiot with unpronounceable kanji instead of his name on his tare.

I've heard more than a few Japanese sensei, talking along the lines of 'What the hell is it with these foreigners putting ridiculous kanji on their zekken, you never know who they are!'

This hot but meaningless debate is more complex than that.
Start your research here (http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs7/841922462758706.html)

YAMAFELL

19th July 2004, 06:11 PM

Yann, Thanks for enjoying my website.. ^_^
also thanks for the congrats!
now hurry and get yourself a zekken! =P

Cheers!

Hai_hai

30th July 2004, 01:15 AM

...I would rather have a weird pronounciation of "FELL" my family name, then have Japanese stare at it going, "How the hell is that pronounced, oh god there is a dubble L how are the L's pronounced differently from R's again?"
http://www.geocities.com/hanamizugaderu/kendo.html

Thanks for sharing. It's spelled double. You are becoming a FOB. Fresh Off the Boat.

Gohan-kun

21st August 2004, 12:01 AM

I just stumbled upon this and felt compelled to post. :)

I started kendo here in Japan last year. I didn't even know about it when I was back home; so, as a matter of course, my kendo experience has started here, and I will consider Japan my base, as far as kendo is concerned.

Consequently, when it came time for me to get a zekken, my sensei spent a good deal of time trying to figure out what way was best to have my name put on. After a couple of weeks of discussion about what my name means (both first AND last), I suggested that I just use katakana, since I figured it would be easier, and I had seen a lot of foreigners' zekken with katakana in pictures I had seen online. He told me that it would be "hen" if I did it that way, and insisted on kanji for my name. He finally decided to put my last name on there, in kanji, with respect to pronunciation.

My last name, Baker (pronounced bei-ka) turned out to be the kanji 'kome' or, in this case, 'bei' (米 rice; with this pronunciation, the kanji means America) and 'ka' (加 as used in the kanji for addition 'kuwaeru'). Put together like this, my name (according to the English teachers I work with) means 'California,' which is where I happen to be from! I was surprised to find out that people here can read the kanji laid out in this way (after learning that I'm a foreigner).

Needless to say, this was pretty entertaining for all of us here. :smiley:

Nanbanjin

21st August 2004, 12:17 AM