Laziness in the younger generations

[moocow65]

I was wondering if any of you guys have this problem at your dojo: Kids (10-17 years) are extremely lazy during practice, and people they could beat easily a few months ago are beating them easily now. It is a severe problem at my dojo right now. Our kids, for some reason, are not practicing hard enough. Actually, they hardly practice. When we have jikeiko after the main practice, they don't stay to practice. Now, I know that it sometimes gets late. Tenken, Kurukuru, and I (Moo) practice till about 10:30 or 11:00 at night sometimes, but these kids, mostly highschool kids, are just outside talking to each other. And it is starting to show. They are no longer as dominating as they once were, and kids from other dojo are passing them up. Now, I know that they really don't have to do the after keiko keiko, but these kids are lazy throughout the ENTIRE practice, so they should have plenty of energy to do the extra jigeiko. I just don't understand how losing doesn't affect them. Do they not care? Don't they want to get better? If not, then they should just not practice. It makes everyone else get worse. If you're gonna practice, then practice at 100% effort. So, I was just wondering if any of you guys had this problem, and what did you guys do about it? And please, no comments like "Kendo isn't about winning blah blah blah" That wasn't the point of my post, and second of all: If winning wasn't important, then would the All Japan Kendo Federation really care if Korea won the World Champinoships? I think they would..............just a little.

[LNGUYEN]

The problem is they are growing up. I remembered myself at that time. Right now, Kendo is not in their mind at all, they have other things in their mind like girls, boys, clothes, having fun, trying to attract the other side of sex, cool cars, cool video games, fashions, schools (the least), and anything you can think of, except Kendo. When I remembered when I was 17 and studying Judo, I used to skip the class to hang out with other teens or to cruise around. Now think back, I regret for not practicing harder at that time. They are just like us before, not lazier but just being teenagers with everything on their minds except Kendo.

[xvikingx]

I was wondering if any of you guys have this problem at your dojo: Kids (10-17 years) are extremely lazy during practice........

I think it just depends. I remember when I went to practice at Norwalk I was surprised with how aggresive and enthusiastic they were about kendo compared to the younger people at my dojo. It definitely made me want to work harder than usual. I would just talk to them about it, but I wouldn't suggest confronting them like an angry football coach. That will most likely get a negative response. Remember, you get more bees with honey.

[Fantasia]

The problem is they are growing up.

Actually I think the opposite is the problem :p

They can't handle the fact that they are growing up (and supposed to be getting more responsible) so they regress to even more immature behavior hehe.

[Hai_hai]

Kendo is a martial art that portrays itself as impossible to achieve perfection. What's the motivation if someone has been practicing kendo for years and will never get perfect? There is this constant underlying theme that no matter what you do, you are not perfect, even if you are 8 dan. What is the point of getting better when it will be impossible to become perfect? Would you fly to Pluto knowing you would be dead before you reached it?

[Andoy]

It's true, teenagers at this stage are experiencing a variety of new things and in turn, they don't really have a set of list of priorities yet. But it's ok, once they find that learning desire and motivation, they will be back....well some of them. I'm 18 and have been learning kendo for 3 and a half years....actually I only got serious just these past couple of months and it really shows on your training! You can really tell if you've improved alot. Anyways that's pretty much it...just be patient i guess and after a while, the really serious people will come back.


As for Hai_Hai...its true that kendo is a martial art/sport that can never be perfected. But doesn't it apply to pretty much every aspect in life? No matter what you do, there will always be someone that's better. But it's ok. The reason why many people do kendo is because they love doing it, even with the knowledge that the chances of being the next Miyazaki or Eiga is slim. As long as the motivation is there anything can happen.

[Will]

Actually it's a lot simpler than people think. They don't want to be there.

A lot of kids are forced to do Kendo because of their parents. Before the years of experience was enough to win in tournaments, but now people with motivation are surpassing them simply because they want to surpass them. If there is no desire to do kendo there is usually no desire to improve which means they won't try hard at all.

Any remedies for this?

[Shazzanzzz]

who's ever perfect in anything they do?

no one is perfect.

If the kids are acting lazy in your dojo, it's up to the seniors and the senseis to make sure they work hard. I guess you can't do anything if they don't do the extra jikeiko you're talking about, but, if they're lazy during regular practice, you should do something about it.

You're kinda contradicting too. You said kids from other dojos are getting so much better than them. So, that means those kids aren't lazy... So you shouldn't put the lazy tag on the entire generation.

And when someone's lazy in one thing doesn't mean he's lazy in everything. I'm a lazy person about school work, but I'm never lazy in kendo, because i love it so much. So, it depends...

[Wark 1978]

I work as an English teacher in a junior high school in Tokyo and I have, at the tender age of 28, started to learn kendo. The kids at my school have been practicing for years and are obviously miles ahead of me.

Motivation does seem to be a problem for some of the kids but not all. I think that one of the reasons is that here, a great emphasis is put on after school clubs and almost every student is in one or maybe more. Some of the kids undoubtedly join because of pressure from their parents so it's quite natural that they may be lazy or unmotivated.

It's not just this reason though. Since before the summer vacation none of the 3rd graders have been coming because they are already sweating over the high school entrance exams and are attending juku or catch up classes or just studying at home after school. Most of the 3rd graders I spoke to said that they spent their summer vacation in juku or studying at home. I only saw them at one practice over the vacation.

It seems that in Japan the kids are put under so much pressure with regards to getting into high school and then once they are there, getting into uni. That pressure does not leave much time for kendo or indeed, anything else. I don't remember spending so much time in school after hours in England and neither do friends from Australia, the US or Canada.

It is hard practicing with someone who is not giving 100%. Their reasons for not giving 100% are not always because they are lazy.

But when they do make an effort it's a different story. Some of the better kids are a joy to watch and can hold their own against the sensei and visitors from the local university.

Don't be too hard on them.

[xvikingx]

Kendo is a martial art that portrays itself as impossible to achieve perfection. What's the motivation if someone has been practicing kendo for years and will never get perfect? There is this constant underlying theme that no matter what you do, you are not perfect, even if you are 8 dan. What is the point of getting better when it will be impossible to become perfect? Would you fly to Pluto knowing you would be dead before you reached it?

That is a good point. I don't think it's that you can't achieve perfection but that it's impossible to learn everything about kendo in a lifetime. That is what I love about kendo (and other budo) is that there is always something new to learn, that there is always room for improvement, and that experience dominates youth. Which maybe why you get situations like MC65 is talking about. They probably don't think about kendo in the "longterm" sense.

[Fantasia]

Kendo is a martial art that portrays itself as impossible to achieve perfection. What's the motivation if someone has been practicing kendo for years and will never get perfect? There is this constant underlying theme that no matter what you do, you are not perfect, even if you are 8 dan. What is the point of getting better when it will be impossible to become perfect? Would you fly to Pluto knowing you would be dead before you reached it?

Kendo is supposed to teach us about life, correct? In life nothing and nobody is ever perfect. Even God regreted his creations (Noah and the Ark) at times.

One of the more difficult of life's lessons is when you DO realize that you will never be perfect at anything you do. It's easy to give up at that point in your life and question why anything is worth trying or doing. Getting past this question is one of the major signs of maturity in a person's own development.

[Neil Gendzwill]

What a boring thing kendo would be if perfection is possible. It would be like learning tic-tac-toe. Who plays that game after the age of about 10? We can always learn, always improve - that is the big attraction. Getting thumped by a 60 year old doesn't frustrate me - it shows me that I have a long and interesting kendo life still ahead of me.

[Miravil]

Has anyone though of the possibility of influence that got them becoming like this?

Over here in my dojo, there was once where some of the juniors (with bogu) will sit down and rest (some taking off their 'men') after doing keiko. It all started with 1 or 2 juniors. Then after some time, one after another started following their footsteps.

What I mean is could it be that they (the teenagers that did not pay full attention about the training) started this by because of influence not because of lazy?

[samurai999]

I think that is the problem of most younger kids today. They think that since they've won or done something that they can rest on their laurels. Thats when they lose their edge, get beaten, cry about it and then when they can't figure it out, they quit because they take the path of least resistance. For kids, I think it is all about winning, losing and doing something fun more than "spiritual aspects", learning, or stuff like that. They, in general, don't want to do the hard stuff to get to the prize. They wanted things handed to them. If the kids want to know more and to learn more past the winning and losing, then we definitely will accomodate that. But in the meanwhile, we do the class such that it is fun for the kids.

There are other instances where they simply just don't want to be there like what will pointed out and are forced to go. If they don't want to be there in the first place, then they won't want to learn, they won't want to improve and therefore, they won't last.

Neil, as we get older, I suppose we get thirstier for knowledge and we want to get more out of life. When I was a kid, I didn't really give a rats ass about anything. I just wanted to get out of grade school and into college. I took judo for a bit when I was 8 and quit because some guy 100 pounds heavier than me fell on my chest and knocked the wind out of me. I got beaten and I thought I was gonna die. That took me out. The point I'm getting at is that kids hate to be on the losing end. If they are, the first thought in their minds is quitting.

One trick I think that kids do is this. When doing opening keiko in practice and lining up in front of sensei in groups of four, they cheat. They get in the back of the line, and wait for an "easy looking sensei". When they get in front of a "hard" or "mean" looking sensei, they stay in line until they are the 2nd or 3rd person in line, then non-chalantly(sp?) scoot to another long line and become the last person in line there. There is another trick where they "fix their men or tenugui". There is one kid who always has a loose tenugui. During the hardest parts of keiko, he bows out and then proceeds to fix the loose tenugui. Then he comes back in plays for a bit, then bows out again, to fix his men himo. They have this technique down pat.

This is obviously one side of the story, but I'm sure that there are motivated kids out there that want to play and learn. They take a lickin' and keep coming back because they have the drive to be better. You can't eat drink and sleep kendo, but when you play or practice you do it with all your effort and don't half-ass...

I hope in the jumble of sentences that I blurted out was a point... :cross_eye:

my more than 0.02$ (US)
Tim

[ben]

10-17 is not a homogenous age-group. Pre-pubescent children have quite different physiologies to pubescent kids, i.e. their muscles don't hypertrophy in response to incresed stress or load-bearing. Therefore extended training hours won't do them any good, and could do some harm. It is irresponsible to be teaching children without this kind of basic knowledge.

And another thing, kendo is about SO MUCH MORE than winning. ;)

b

[Andoy]

One trick I think that kids do is this. When doing opening keiko in practice and lining up in front of sensei in groups of four, they cheat. They get in the back of the line, and wait for an "easy looking sensei". When they get in front of a "hard" or "mean" looking sensei, they stay in line until they are the 2nd or 3rd person in line, then non-chalantly(sp?) scoot to another long line and become the last person in line there. There is another trick where they "fix their men or tenugui". There is one kid who always has a loose tenugui. During the hardest parts of keiko, he bows out and then proceeds to fix the loose tenugui. Then he comes back in plays for a bit, then bows out again, to fix his men himo. They have this technique down pat.

I must admit, I was guilty of that 2 years ago....but again when I got serious about kendo, now I try and practice with as many sensei from my dojo as i can. I guess it depends on when kids mature. It varies as each person is and individual but when they straighten themselves out, they'll know whether kendo is for them or not.

[heri0n]

i would be happy if i could practise with you guys (moocow, tenken, mrkurukuru)

[Hai_hai]

Kendo is supposed to teach us about life, correct? In life nothing and nobody is ever perfect. Even God regreted his creations (Noah and the Ark) at times.

One of the more difficult of life's lessons is when you DO realize that you will never be perfect at anything you do. It's easy to give up at that point in your life and question why anything is worth trying or doing. Getting past this question is one of the major signs of maturity in a person's own development.

Kendo doesn't teach about life. It's too limited in that if focuses on teaching the way of the sword. You could, if you stretch it, apply Buddhist philosophies and say kendo teaches life.

Yes, you can achieve certain level of perfection in other sports. The 10 in gymnastics or 6 in figure skating. The execution of certain specialty plays in hockey or football. The ace in tennis. A baseball pitcher can pitch the perfect game. The 300 in bowling. The hole-in-one in golf. These aren't easy goals but they are achievable.

But other than that, I don't think my answer is correct. I agree with Will. It's just plain lack of motivation. I guess the best way to find out is to actually ask one of the unmotivated teenagers.
How many of you out there are motivated to learn and become better at ballet? Maybe yes for some and maybe no for others. What would it take to get you motivated to practice hard at ballet? Oh, what's that? You just don't care? You are interested in other things? Apply that to the teenager's point of view and VOILA.

[kawa]

Yes, kids might be lazy. However they are much easier to teach compare to Adult. Most adults have so much self-pride and slow to accept advice or swallow harsh words from Sensei.

and yes, kendo is SOO MUCH MORE THAN WINING....

[Fantasia]

[QUOTE=Hai_hai]

Yes, you can achieve certain level of perfection in other sports. The 10 in gymnastics or 6 in figure skating. The execution of certain specialty plays in hockey or football. The ace in tennis. A baseball pitcher can pitch the perfect game. The 300 in bowling. The hole-in-one in golf. These aren't easy goals but they are achievable.
QUOTE]

That's a momentary perfection, and still not really "perfect" That 300 bowling game might have had a couple moments of "oooh, wasn't a perfectly clean pocket, I'll be lucky if I knock all 10 pins over.

A kendoka in a match could get a "perfect" score, but that doesn't mean they are perfect. Show me somebody who gets a 10 every gymnastics meet, a 6 every figure skating championship, or an ace every single serve and I'll agree they are perfect.

[A P]

Yes, kids might be lazy. However they are much easier to teach compare to Adult. Most adults have so much self-pride and slow to accept advice or swallow harsh words from Sensei.

and yes, kendo is SOO MUCH MORE THAN WINING....

I agree with you. The adult always want to be right, but when kids prove

them wrong, they don't give much thought about kids being right.

It like Phewssss no big deal or I know that. They think more about their

own prides.

The sensei will be saying harsh stuff at the student? Then I guess, I have

to get use of understanding them.

[mingshi]

Kids (10-17 years) are extremely lazy during practice, and people they could beat easily a few months ago are beating them easily now... Don't they want to get better?
Some of the 6-yr-old kids here just keep coming at you, despite their not-so-good footwork and clubber technique... No one kicks them in front of motodachi but they queue up so quickly. But some older teenagers just stand at the back chatting (how can they do that, I always wonder, with their men on!!)... Maybe they come because their parents drove them there.

IMHO if they want to get better, they will. I would suggest that they need some sort of motivation to be in the dojo to train. Wherther it is about winning taikai, beating people up, or to look cool is entirely up to them, and there isn't anything wrong about that (well, they are still young).

When I started I set up a training goal to beat the nearest ones up the Senpai line... soon I found out this wasn't challenging enough. And I set up a new goal, and another one, and another one... Maybe a senior/more enlightened person would think that it is very naive, but at least it is this mentality that keeps me going.


...What's the motivation if someone has been practicing kendo for years and will never get perfect?
"Will never get perfect" is the motivation. There is a Chinese saying (and I am sure there is a western equivalent) that, "It is lonely to be invincible".


There is this constant underlying theme that no matter what you do, you are not perfect, even if you are 8 dan.
Nice. I like this sentence.

BUT

What is the point of getting better when it will be impossible to become perfect? Would you fly to Pluto knowing you would be dead before you reached it?
This is rather confusing. According to your logic, why would you want to stay alive knowing that one day you will die?

... and I thought this is what life is about? hmmm

[ben]

This is rather confusing. According to your logic, why would you want to stay alive knowing that one day you will die?

... and I thought this is what life is about? hmmm[/QUOTE]

haha! SHOBU ARI!

[Will]

seeing how this topic is on youths, I don't see how kids really think about being perfect. Before reading this thread I never had thought about it, and I'm pretty sure a lot of other people haven't thought about it much. And yes, Kendo isn't about winning, but to kids, it is. Forget all the stuff about kendo's philosphy and etc, and remember, Kids are kids and they do what they do for fun. If they don't win, they're not having fun.
In my last tournament one of youths lost his first round, won a team match, and lost his other team match. He was slightly depressed and discouraged. I could see two possible outcomes in this situation: 1) He'd like to get better and play more so next time he could win (like what happened with me) or 2) He get's discouraged and believe what he is doing is not right and he'll never practice.
I think the second option occurs to children a lot more. So yeah, again, I just think they either get discouraged and become lazy, or just don't want to do it and become lazy.

[LNGUYEN]

I remembered when I was 16 or 17 and lost in Saigon Judo Championships. I was so desperated and wanted to quit Judo for all. Nobody came to encourage me or assisted my trouble thoughts at that moments. I didn't compete after that for a while. Now looked back, I understood now I shouldn't think that way. I am more confident now in Kendo and don't care about losing or winning anymore. However, I still wished someone came to talk to me after that desperated moment. Please think about those kids and give them some moments if they lost after the fights. I am sure they need it.

[Miravil]

I remembered when I was 16 or 17 and lost in Saigon Judo Championships. I was so desperated and wanted to quit Judo for all. Nobody came to encourage me or assisted my trouble thoughts at that moments. I didn't compete after that for a while. Now looked back, I understood now I shouldn't think that way. I am more confident now in Kendo and don't care about losing or winning anymore. However, I still wished someone came to talk to me after that desperated moment. Please think about those kids and give them some moments if they lost after the fights. I am sure they need it.

I do understand how you feel. I was about your age when I used to learn Taekwondo. I was fat and slow back then, even my instructor and seniors doesn't give a damn about me. I wanted so much to win everytime I participated a competition, but sadly it was (still) just a dream. Many times I wanted to quit, but I love the art so much and didn't give up, I kept on training until few years back where my feet can't take it anymore.

And yes, I do agree with you about paying attention to the kids. However, do bare in mind that kids also have preferences. Sometimes they rather want the encouragements from sensei and senpai, not those in my level (I know I was like that). I'm not saying that we shouldn't pay attention to them, but just be prepared that our effort may not be accepted.

[Alicia]

hi guys,
interesting points made by people, and i cant disagree, because i dont know the people where you are, but i can tell you how things are here
at my dojo, we have several teenagers around 15/16, me included, and we all do kendo because we enjoy it and want to improve. we only have about 1/2 shiai a year, so winning is not the reason that we do kendo. all this talk about never reaching perfection is not the way i look at things. i aim to be satisfied and proud of what i do, and i feel like this when i have improved, or successfuly managed a waza, or pushed myself further than i thought i could. if anyone ever got to be 'perfect' they would have nothing to strive for, lose their point in life and never feel a sense of achievement. kendo would be boring in this case. at our dojo, we train hard and have fun, if someone isnt motivated or doesnt want to be there they drop out, but this doesnt happen often, because once people start to enjoy kendo, they generally stick at it and want to improve, and basically just enjoy coming and giving it their best. this goes for both teenagers and adults
just to let you know that all teenagers arent like that
(if theres any of those unmotivated people on here, write in, id like to here why your like it)
:) alicia