Show up late or not at all?

[midnightdawn]

This has been bugging me for the last few months.

When I first started Kendo, one of my senpais told me there was a bunch of reading material about etiquitte and so for on our dojos page. So I went and read it. They mentioned of course to try show up for every practice and that you should only miss if its very important. Later it said NO LATE ARRIVALS, and that late arrivals are worse than not showing up at all. (Which I agree with).

Since I believe that, if I look at the clock and realize that I wont make it to practice on time, or at the very worse before we seiza, then I wont go. It doesn't seem fair that I interrupt practice, and make somebody stop all together and do opening formalities with me just because I was to careless to make sure I was there on time. I have missed just a very few practices because of this. However, one or two people every practice will show up 15-30 minutes late, and I think this is horribly rude.

Am I okay in thinking this, or is it wrong to just not show up at all if i'm just late?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I would ask your sensei about this. Many dojo allow late arrivals and there is usually no need to stop proceedings. If you explain that your lateness is caused by work obligations or other things out of your control, he may make an exception for you. If your sensei allows you to arrive late, he may require that you wait until being acknowledged before entering. Bow, find an out of the way corner and warm up yourself, then again you probably will have to wait to be acknowledged before joining the rest of the class.

[Charlie]

See, but then again in some places, late is the norm, especially for some of the older guys coming from work. Also, I have seen older guys warm up and take their time doing so, only jumping in at the end for jigeiko. Depends on the place, though. For the record, at our club better late than never: it's a college club and everybody is working and in school. If you do show up late, though, it's generally expected that you will get yourself together and insert yourself where appropriate.

[BirdMan]

At our Dojo I was told "late is better than not showing up". When you are late you sit and wait till you are bowed in then you warm yourself up on the edge of the floor out of the way, then when you are ready you join in with the rest of the class. We have a pretty small class, usually around 6 or so people, so every extra body is nice to have.

Kelly

[chidokan]

some training is better than none. the trick is to make sure you get out of work in time to make it to practise. i make a habit of finishing early on practise nights no matter how 'important' it is that i stay for an hour or so. quote life/work balance, that'll do the trick. :happy:

[indigo0086]

At our Dojo I was told "late is better than not showing up". When you are late you sit and wait till you are bowed in then you warm yourself up on the edge of the floor out of the way, then when you are ready you join in with the rest of the class. We have a pretty small class, usually around 6 or so people, so every extra body is nice to have.

Kelly

well my (future) dojo is located a long ways south where some of the members are. almost 20 miles from me, and like 28 miles for one of their senior members. I saw a few students come in late, but they bowed, got ready, and the sensei put them in their positions to practice. He's very reasonable and knows that the dojo's not the closest to most of the members, so he is flexible. I guess it depeneds on the person's personality.

[Tato]

In our case, it's acceptable to arraive late.

The rule is try to be on time, but if not, just warmp up, and ask for permision from the sensei to join the class.

That's because many of us need to travel quite long distances in the usual traffic jams, and in some cases we can't leave work early enaugh.

Also, if you think that you're going to arrive when there's few training time left, then you may stay as well stay at home. (Or go to see how the other members train, some sensei also told me that you can learn a lot from seeing other people practicing).

Cheers!

[Andoy]

I think it's up to your sensei. Ask how she/feels. After all, there will be exceptions.

[etherknot]

If you can, why not just try to get there early?

Not easy for lots of people for reasons previously stated but...

[Rawoo]

Cant stretch and warm up properly
So injury as a result
It's very very easy to get injured in Kendo if u dont stretch and warm up properly coz Kendo requires ur muscle to be very "explosive" if u know what I mean.
and when u do get injuries
what is left in Kendo is pain pain and still pain
it's possible for u to overcome the pain for a short period of time
but believe me it will come back and get you good!!

[midnightdawn]

If you can, why not just try to get there early?

Not easy for lots of people for reasons previously stated but...

I actually do get there early usually. Those few times I would come in late, or, for that person that does shows up late for practice every time, is what i'm referring to.

[nodachi]

I showed up late to one of the places I practiced in when I lived in Japan. I talked it over with the sensei. It was fine because if you have responsibilities that keep you late, it is better to show up late rather than never. Granted, if you are late because you aren't punctual, I would say thats bad, but if you have work or something valid for an excuse, I see no harm in showing up late. I just had to arrive at the dojo, go up to the sensei and say "osoku naraimashita" (basically a polite sorry I am late) or something like that, damn spelling, and he would put me into the practice. Practicing together was more important than being upset at someone for being late or just not even showing up. You just needed to enter the practice politely and all was fine.

[D'Artagnan]

I actually do get there early usually. Those few times I would come in late, or, for that person that does shows up late for practice every time, is what i'm referring to.

I would say that an irregular or oneoff, unavoidable lateness is totally acceptable, as long as it is followed by an apology to the sensei. However, as far as those people who regularly arrive late for no good reason, i think that this is very poor etiquette, and at the end of the day it is themselves that they are depriving of training, and further improvement in Kendo.

A.

[Hyaku]

This is daily event in Japan. People come late, people leave early. If Sensei is not wearing Bogu or busy one goes up to him and bows if its a one off thing. Then again this is all part of young peoples education.

Adults dont do this. One finds a quite place does the ettiquette stand up and get on with it. For me I would even go and watch if I was sick and got sent home!

If you are too late someone should be appointed to receive a few kirikaeshi and kakari geiko to warm you up.

Osoku naraimashita?

Naranai ho ga i desu yo!

Are you telling them you are nicely getting used to getting late?

[nodachi]

Osoku naraimashita?

Naranai ho ga i desu yo!

Are you telling them you are nicely getting used to getting late?


Maybe I meant osoku narimashita, as in osoku naru. <shrug> My spoken Japanese is not so good. This is what I was told to say to him, but I was given this advice from someone over the phone so I have probably goofed up in hearing it over the phone and learning the correct thing to say. The important thing was that the sensei knew I was apologizing for being late. Anyone who wants to correct me with the appropriate phrase can go on ahead.

Random thought, maybe we could create a sub section to the forum where people can ask Japanese gramatical and language questions. I've seen them on other forums and they are often rathering interesting and helpful.

[Yowai]

Just out of curiosity, I have a question for the people that describe dojos that have ridiculously strick punctuality rules.
Are the people that enforce these rules gaijins?

[nonamehandle]

in response to this, i have a question of my own,

i'm now practicing in a new country, and albeit i have not gone to many dojos here, the sensei at this particular dojo (university), is ususally the last to show up, and the first to leave. now in the region that i started my kendo, the senseis are ususally the first to show up and last to leave. is my experience not usual (senseis coming early and leaving late)? how do the senseis behave in your respective neck of the woods?

[Yowai]

in response to this, i have a question of my own,

i'm now practicing in a new country, and albeit i have not gone to many dojos here, the sensei at this particular dojo (university), is ususally the last to show up, and the first to leave. now in the region that i started my kendo, the senseis are ususally the first to show up and last to leave. is my experience not usual (senseis coming early and leaving late)? how do the senseis behave in your respective neck of the woods?

Simple. If the instructors are paid, they arrive on time. If they are volunteers, they can do as they wish.

[nonamehandle]

Simple. If the instructors are paid, they arrive on time. If they are volunteers, they can do as they wish.

well, in both of my instances the senseis were volunteering.

certainly i recognize that we (meaning the few-amongst the world pop-that adhere to the "commercialization of everything" view) would find it extremely rational that if they are being paid, they'd better do their job, however, not so sure that the reverse in this case is also true-that since they are not being paid, they can do as they wish. mayhaps this is because i find kendo to be as much character building than anything else, and the character building comes from both practicing the discipline of kendo itself AND observing the character of the people that have been practicing the discipline of kendo.

but rather than this becoming a posting of some other topic, i REALLY want to learn what is the expected norm of the senseis behavior in regards to this issue in other parts of the world, and to narrow it down for mr. yowai and others, for those who volunteer their time.

[Hyaku]

Anyone who wants to correct me with the appropriate phrase can go on ahead.

Only trying to help :cry:


Just out of curiosity, I have a question for the people that describe dojos that have ridiculously strick punctuality rules. Are the people that enforce these rules gaijins?

And since when was punctuality a custom of any other country other than Japan? Still don't worry about it Yowai theres no medicine for stupidity.

[nodachi]

[QUOTE=Hyaku]Only trying to help :cry:

Not a problem, not snapping back at you at all, anyone who wants to correct me, please do so, I want to learn. :)

[tango]

in response to this, i have a question of my own,

i'm now practicing in a new country, and albeit i have not gone to many dojos here, the sensei at this particular dojo (university), is ususally the last to show up, and the first to leave. now in the region that i started my kendo, the senseis are ususally the first to show up and last to leave. is my experience not usual (senseis coming early and leaving late)? how do the senseis behave in your respective neck of the woods?

noname,
is this the only sensei at your club?

i would agree that showing up late and leaving early is no normal for sensei, regardless of whether they are getting paid or volunteering. Most kendo players (and sensei) I have known and seen appear as if they don't care if they're getting paid or not -- they all just love to do kendo and want to be able to practice with anybody and everybody! But this is just my experience.

As for your particular situation, I suppose it's possible that the late-coming/early-leaving sensei might have something else on his schedule that doesn't allow him to show up on time and requires him to leave early.. It could be anything school-related (like a late class for example?) or something off the wall like he doesn't have transportation and has to rely on the bus (and the bus schedule).. and if it's something like that, I wouldn't worry about it and just try and get as much out of him as I could while he is there.

Good luck!

[nonamehandle]

noname,
is this the only sensei at your club?

i would agree that showing up late and leaving early is no normal for sensei, regardless of whether they are getting paid or volunteering. Most kendo players (and sensei) I have known and seen appear as if they don't care if they're getting paid or not -- they all just love to do kendo and want to be able to practice with anybody and everybody! But this is just my experience.

As for your particular situation, I suppose it's possible that the late-coming/early-leaving sensei might have something else on his schedule that doesn't allow him to show up on time and requires him to leave early.. It could be anything school-related (like a late class for example?) or something off the wall like he doesn't have transportation and has to rely on the bus (and the bus schedule).. and if it's something like that, I wouldn't worry about it and just try and get as much out of him as I could while he is there.

Good luck!

thanks for the feedback tango,
for some reason, i can't seem to log on to kendoworld website
on a regular basis, thought that it was problem on the website,
but i think it might be a problem with rejection of certain servers
that are in korea(since i've heard of it from other forums)
due to the amount of e-mails
so the reason for the lateness in reply

this is all part of practicing kendo(re: my original question)

[samurai999]

This has been bugging me for the last few months.

When I first started Kendo, one of my senpais told me there was a bunch of reading material about etiquitte and so for on our dojos page. So I went and read it. They mentioned of course to try show up for every practice and that you should only miss if its very important. Later it said NO LATE ARRIVALS, and that late arrivals are worse than not showing up at all. (Which I agree with).

Since I believe that, if I look at the clock and realize that I wont make it to practice on time, or at the very worse before we seiza, then I wont go. It doesn't seem fair that I interrupt practice, and make somebody stop all together and do opening formalities with me just because I was to careless to make sure I was there on time. I have missed just a very few practices because of this. However, one or two people every practice will show up 15-30 minutes late, and I think this is horribly rude.



Of course sensei from different dojos differ in thinking so you might get a different response if you go late to different dojos.. I have discussion classes from 7:00pm to 8:30 pm on Tuesdays (our practices start at 7:00pm by the way), but I can leave early if I want. Usually it is for homework so I stay until I learn what I need. I usually end up an hour late to practice. Then I stretch my various body parts (and my achilles) for 15min or so and spend another 10min warming up. I sometimes start practice at least an hour late. But as a courtesy to your sensei, you should let him know what is going on. Usually, they'll say "don't worry about it". They know who the flakes are and who is serious. As a some starting point, I suggest that you try to get to practice if you know you'll be praticing approximately an hour. There is no point in going to practice with 30min left, stretch out (or not stretch at all risking injury) and spend 15min practicing. I hope that there is some info in all my rambling. :D

Tim

[samurai999]

Simple. If the instructors are paid, they arrive on time. If they are volunteers, they can do as they wish.

Yet again with one of your posts, I beg to differ. My sensei blow your theory out of the water. They are all volunteers. They can do what they wish, but they still come 15-30min early for practice EVERY NIGHT. Interesting huh..

Tim

[dorkusxmaximus]

Better to be late than sorry. :silly:

[Nanbanjin]

I don't have a problem with people turning up late. Everybody has responsibilities outside of kendo so it is a bit much to expect everyone to give everything else up just to get to kendo on time.
I work late sometimes and can only make it for the last half hour of training. There are a few other people at my club who do the same.

[Yowai]

Yet again with one of your posts, I beg to differ. My sensei blow your theory out of the water. They are all volunteers. They can do what they wish, but they still come 15-30min early for practice EVERY NIGHT. Interesting huh..


Tell me, exactly, how you "[blew my] theory out of the water." Where is the contradiction? Where? Interesting indeed.

[Atama]

Just out of curiosity, I have a question for the people that describe dojos that have ridiculously strick punctuality rules.
Are the people that enforce these rules gaijins?

Does it matter?..............surley you don't think that the people playing kendo all over the world are japanese.


I personally hate lateness I would rather be an hour early then a minute late, however I am not sensei so it is not my duty to enforce this.

[Tobrak]

in response to this, i have a question of my own,

i'm now practicing in a new country, and albeit i have not gone to many dojos here, the sensei at this particular dojo (university), is ususally the last to show up, and the first to leave. now in the region that i started my kendo, the senseis are ususally the first to show up and last to leave. is my experience not usual (senseis coming early and leaving late)? how do the senseis behave in your respective neck of the woods?

Everyone have other things going on besides Kendo so like any human being it will be days when the sensei will show up late and maybe will have to leave early and I would think it doesnt matter if they being paid or not, things happen.
I beleive its not a habit to come in late and leave early in any type of appointment and/or commitment that one have, specially when people depend on you for guidance/instruction.
Now if that becomes a habit...well then its you who is being deprived of your regular practice and you know what?
Would it make any difference to you if you were in class for free or paying for the class?
Would any of these situations influence your decision to find another Dojo?
Let us know...

[Kiki]

....for that person that does shows up late for practice every time, is what i'm referring to.

Most people have good reasons for being late - as pointed out here already. It’s not fair to assume your fellow kenshi are just being rude. However, it’s good to know your Sensei’s protocol for your own sake.
:)

[lwegerich]

I'm a big fan of dojo etiquette but like the others said "Better late than not showing up at all". We all have our obligations.

At our dojo here in Hamburg, Germany we have quite a few japanese showing up regularly. And they are all late! Wanna know why?

1) These guys are pretty busy at the companies they work for. Ever heard of "Karoshi"? ;)

2) We have a 2 hour practise and are doing lots of kihon in the beginning for the kyu grades (like me). Those japanese are all 2nd dan and higher and I guess they really don't like that much kihon. They come around 40 minutes before the end of the class, warm up a little bit and jump in for the last 30 minutes of jigeiko.

Our german senseis (all 4th dan) have all been in Japan for several stays and told me that the kind of training we have here (mostly kihon) is meant for kids in Japan! LOL

Most of the higher ranks seems to just do kirikaeshi and jigeiko in Japan. That's all.

BTW, here is cool story about dojo etiquette. Some months ago we had the japanese national trainer for Germany attending a grading at our dojo. All of us while watching the other guys exams were ambitiously trying to keep up the correct seiza posture while the japanese trainer (7th dan) asked for a chair right from the beginning and sat there pretty comfortable for 2 hours.

;)

[inner_cent]

BTW, here is cool story about dojo etiquette. Some months ago we had the japanese national trainer for Germany attending a grading at our dojo. All of us while watching the other guys exams were ambitiously trying to keep up the correct seiza posture while the japanese trainer (7th dan) asked for a chair right from the beginning and sat there pretty comfortable for 2 hours.

;)


Sorry to say this...... They did not attend their 7th dan by not observe the protocol... and trust me, u will be surprised how hard it is to attend even 5th or 6th dan WITHOUT attending!
Think it is alot more embarrasing for them if half way of grading, and ask people help to get him up to sit on a chair. THEY are there for grading only and sit there for 2 bloody long hours and watching all of the candidate to do their best, its not a comfy thing to just sit there and watch.
THis is not intending to flame anyone, but just thought you will need to understand something much more deeper than what you see. Especially making comments on 7th dan senseis.... For my point of view, I feel that is damn dis-respect of them for thinking they sit there in comfort only (they do have the responsibility for the whole grading processes).

[samurai999]

Tell me, exactly, how you "[blew my] theory out of the water." Where is the contradiction? Where? Interesting indeed.


Sorry, my mistake. Instead of "theory", it should've been "your sense of reality".

Contradictions are pretty clear to me. Your sensei come to practice because they want to get paid (I haven't seen a case of any sensei getting paid to teach around here (US)). My sensei come to practice because they want to be there. They don't get paid, yet have the motivation to come early to practice and take 2 hours out of every tuesday and thurday to teach.

Tim

[samurai999]

Only trying to help :cry:



And since when was punctuality a custom of any other country other than Japan? Still don't worry about it Yowai theres no medicine for stupidity.

All I can say is "baka wa shi na nakya naoranai"

Tim

[Yowai]

Contradictions are pretty clear to me. Your sensei come to practice because they want to get paid (I haven't seen a case of any sensei getting paid to teach around here (US)). My sensei come to practice because they want to be there. They don't get paid, yet have the motivation to come early to practice and take 2 hours out of every tuesday and thurday to teach.Tim

Nope. Still no contradiction. Do you understand logic? Do you understand English? Don't venture into pasting memorized Japanese sentences when you have an iffy grasp of English.

[ALI G]

Tell me, exactly, how you "[blew my] theory out of the water." Where is the contradiction? Where? Interesting indeed.

Youz postingz a messeg aboutz showingz upz latez iz contrU-Dickting.....I'z dontz undastandz whyz youz evenz carez conzideringz youz quitz da Kendoz....So it dozent matta since youz aint even showingz up earlyz,on timez or latez anyweyz...

[lwegerich]

Think it is alot more embarrasing for them if half way of grading, and ask people help to get him up to sit on a chair.

You got me wrong. This particular sensei asked right from the beginning for a chair. He did that with a winning smile on his face that said: "Don't take dojo etiquette too seriously."

Funny thing that the adoption of dojo etiquette in the west seems to be "over ambitious". I train every week with lots of japanes senseis and all of them are quite relaxed about etiquette. They take it seriously but not as seriously as you.

[samurai999]

Nope. Still no contradiction. Do you understand logic? Do you understand English? Don't venture into pasting memorized Japanese sentences when you have an iffy grasp of English.

I see a contradiction plain and simple and I posted it above.

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think a better question might be, why is your dojo making you all sit seiza through a 2 hour grading? What kind of useless torture is that?

[Yowai]

I see a contradiction plain and simple and I posted it above.

You don't understand English.


I think a better question might be, why is your dojo making you all sit seiza through a 2 hour grading? What kind of useless torture is that?


An ikkyu was failed for a wrong step on nanahonme. Adults are required to do formal testing for every kyu grade starting with the 6th.
I am starting to feel that the German Kendo Federation is over-the-top.

[Nanbanjin]

Adults are required to do formal testing for every kyu grade starting with the 6th....
I think that this is pretty standard everywhere outside Japan.
You wont get any argument from me that it's not over the top.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think that this is pretty standard everywhere outside Japan.
You wont get any argument from me that it's not over the top.
Not in Canada. First tested rank for adults is ikkyu. Seeing as there are only 4 places where you can test, and it's a big country, it would be pretty silly for the CKF to make people test for each kyu.

Internal to our dojo, for our kids program we've introduced tests and rank badges this year, just because kids like that stuff. Gokyu == able to do basic suburi and bowing, yonkyu == ready to wear bogu, sankyu == able to tie their bogu themselves and spar a little with OK form, nikyu == ready to take the ikkyu test.

For adults in our dojo, we have one internal test, which is the are-you-ready-to-wear-bogu test (yonkyu in the kids structure).