Mushin vs. Fudoshin

[Trent]

In your opinion, which is a better concept (or thought) whilst training/competing: Mushin (no mind) or Fudoshin (unwavering mind)?

[neko kenshi]

Are they mutually exclusive?

[turboyoshi]

In your opinion, which is a better concept (or thought) whilst training/competing: Mushin (no mind) or Fudoshin (unwavering mind)?

Mushin is useless if you haven't already developed the techniques to the point where your body can move without conscious decisions from you.

So, with my limited understanding, I'd say fudoshin is like a preliminary step to mushin. It's easier to learn and useful as soon as you get it, and mushin is a more difficult stage to get to and by then, it should be really useful.

Like neko suggested, I don't think they're mutually exclusive, and I don't think you should try to favor one over the other.

Be adaptable, and use what the situation calls for.

I'l be curious to hear what the elders on the forums have to say though. Hope they feel like taking a stab here.

sean

[758jo]

If you're "thinking", then you have neither! Mushin (無心) refers to a mind that is not fixed, stopped or preoccupied by thought, strategy or emotion. Fudoshin (不動心), as expressed by Zen master Takuan Soho (沢庵 宗彭) is a mind that is unperterbed or unthreatened; perhaps it is the highest level of "mindfulness" as the mind does not move because it does not stop because there are no attachments. It is the mind that is fully aware, moment to moment, in all experiences in every situation, and responds naturally, spontaneously and, completely.

I doubt if this helps but both sound good to me!

[Shazzanzzz]

I think for beginners, it's important to learn to be decisive, be able to go forward without fear, be able to focus, and building up your "reaction library" from experience. Other than that, you really shouldn't worry about those concepts that much.

If you're thinking to yourself 'don't think' then you're thinking already. And the fact that you don't have enough experience to "not think" does not help you.

Just do a lot of kagarigeiko and ai-kagarigeiko and you'll be fine. =)

[Unixg0d]

Can someone please exlpain me the difference between Fudoshin and Fushin? :S i found diferents interpretations about these two concepts, and im not 100% sure about it.

[Fudo-Shin]

Come on people...we all know Fudo-Shin kicks butt!!!

Once you know the shin, aite will never win!...

[Kenshi]

Fudoshin is what you have after a few beers. You see a pretty girl at the other end of the bar. You tell your mates that you are going to chat to her and they tell you that shes out of your league. Undaunted you step forth.

Mushin is what you have a few hours later. You are sitting at the end of the bar (by yourself of-course) with an almost full pint in hand, just staring at it, yet not moving to drink it.

[Fudo-Shin]

Mushin is what you have a few hours later. You are sitting at the end of the bar (by yourself of-course) with an almost full pint in hand, just staring at it, yet not moving to drink it.Come on George, don't let it get you down in future...it's nothin' a bit of plastic surgery won't fix when you can spare the cash.

[Kenshi]

Are we both drunk posting?

Or is it just one of us?

[The great I AM]

In your opinion, which is a better concept (or thought) whilst training/competing: Mushin (no mind) or Fudoshin (unwavering mind)?I don't know, but on a basbell cap, they both look great!

[Unixg0d]

comeone be serious :)

[Kenshi]

comeone be serious :)

Well, what is this FUSHIN you are talking about? Give us kanji so we can help if possible.

As for the original question: Fudoshin (不動心) and Mushin (無心) are not mutually exlusive... 　plus, id add Heijoshin (平常心) into the pot as well.... so there is no "better" concept to have in mind (or not) during keiko.

[Unixg0d]

yes i found Fushin in some websites, but sometimes have diferent concept.

:(

[Masahiro]

I like Kenshi's suggestion. I vote for Heijoshin (平常心), if that's your state of Fudoshin (不動心), then all is well.

p.s I think Mushin (無心) is BS, it's a flawed wording of a concept that can not be described by words.

[ZealUK]

無念無想 is another common term. They are all pretty much the same thing. It's all about returning to the natural state of mind that we all had when we were babies in our mothers womb. After birth we move further and further away from our 'unborn' mind, we develop preferences, desires, fears, etc. and our minds distort the way we percieve the world around us.

Of course it's totally unrelated to skill in any activity. You learn that through practice. It's the ability to act spontaniously without cognition once you have spent many years learning the physical movements.

[Kenshi]

Of course it's totally unrelated to skill in any activity. You learn that through practice. It's the ability to act spontaniously without cognition once you have spent many years learning the physical movements.

I use them all in combination with エッチ.

[Josh Reyer]

p.s I think Mushin (無心) is BS, it's a flawed wording of a concept that can not be described by words.

Sure it can, and in Japanese 無心 is a pretty good description.

[ZealUK]

I use them all in combination with エッチ.

I said act spontaniously, not come spontaniously.

Sen sen no semen

[xvikingx]

I said act spontaniously, not come spontaniously.

Sen sen no semen

Fook, I had to leave the office! I've got tears in my eyes. My hat is off to you sir.

[The great I AM]

p.s I think Mushin (無心) is BS, it's a flawed wording of a concept that can not be described by words.What, you mean like your body's automatic reaction to a set of stimulus it has seen and reacted to in the same way before?

I think saying stuff like "It cannot be described by words" is adding unnecessary mysticsim and/or romanticism that isn't really needed. You sound like McDojo Ninjer Sensee!!

[Masahiro]

no i just mean that it sounds like a bunch of BS when people say I did so and so waza with "mushin". Literally it doesn't make sense. There can not be absence of mind during an action.

spontaneously being able to perform a move/waza because of your muscle/body memory still requires some sort of "thought" in my opinion, thus I disregard the concept "mushin" as a imperfect description of something that can not be put into words.

does that sound like a McDojo ninger sense to you? if so. I guess I should open my own dojo.

[Josh Reyer]

Well, there's your problem. Mushin is not absence of mind. It's a mind (shin) without (mu) attachment.

[bobdonny]

I've quite a simple approach on this. If you have to ask you dont know understand it and wouldnt understand the answer anyway :)

And trying to explain these concepts is equally flawed, i.e. if you need to explain it (as someone doesnt understand) they wont understand no matter how well you explain.

:)

[Masahiro]

Well, there's your problem. Mushin is not absence of mind. It's a mind (shin) without (mu) attachment.


well thanks, being half japanese and half taiwanese myself. Having lived my life mostly overseas I totally didn't know the kanji meanings. :smoker:

bob, eloquently put. + reps

[Badger]

I think I work in a mushin way at the moment. I really don't think when I do kendo (which I think is a problem)
I would prefer to be mentally active though to be honest.

[bobdonny]

I think I work in a mushin way at the moment. I really don't think when I do kendo (which I think is a problem)
I would prefer to be mentally active though to be honest.

Ha, I read the first line and could so relate this to my day job ;)
Then i read you meant kendo:laugh:

[Shazzanzzz]

Ha, I read the first line and could so relate this to my day job ;)


I read that post and was thinking the same thing....

I'm totally mushin even when i'm busy. It's a real talent.

As for kendo, you can't "not think" unless you have already thought about it before.

Think about that.

[Fonsz]

As for kendo, you can't "not think" unless you have already thought about it before.

Think about that.
Thank you. My head just exploded while I pondered over your random thoughts of wisdom...........:eek:

[xvikingx]

well thanks, being half japanese and half taiwanese myself.
You’re American. Get over it.

Having lived my life mostly overseas I totally didn't know the kanji meanings. :smoker:
Yeah, obviously you didn’t. You seem to struggle with English as it is, why don’t you focus on that for a while?

[Masahiro]

that was just uncalled for. less about me, more about kendo please.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Having lived my life mostly overseas I totally didn't know the kanji meanings. :smoker:


I prefer to refrain from commenting on things I'm not too clued up on, but maybe that's just me.

[Kent Enfield]

well thanks, being half japanese and half taiwanese myself.
I didn't realize knowledge of kanji was genetically encoded.

I suppose you have longer intestines more suitable for rice, too.

[Masahiro]

Kingofmyrrh,

I appreciate you comment, since it was somewhat constructive. I will make an attempt to address it in relations to this thread.

it is my "opinion" that regardless of what I "think" (of "mushin" being BS) should not get anyone's panties in a bundle. So long as I don't insult someone directly (unprovoked) or intentionally spit out some BS like "kendo is bad for your health" or something like that. I don't feel that my comments should invite such negative response in a public forum. Dealing with a slight disagreement of idea privately works equally well (from my experience)

And silly me, since I was under the impression that people are allowed to feel and experience things differently. We are allowed to disagree with each other. no? But alas you don't see me go telling everyone/anyone who disagree with me "what" they ought to think and what they "ought not" to think, or worse yet, belittle them. then again in your own words "maybe that's just me". ..since my back ground and experience differ than some self righteous donkey(s) in here. I invite all of you who have more to say to p/m me. Alright boys?


this was a good thread, I am sorry to say that it had to turn out this way. If my comment was so hard to bare, please just block me from now on. Other wise i think it's time for all of us to grow up. U know I don't back down, so there's no point in flaming me.

[Kingofmyrrh]

So long as I don't insult someone directly (unprovoked) or intentionally spit out some BS like "kendo is bad for your health" or something like that

p.s I think Mushin (無心) is BS, it's a flawed wording of a concept that can not be described by words.
They both sound equally debatable to me. Being neither a doctor nor a serious student of kanji I'm happy to leave them both at that. We could do PMs but at least in the open there's a decent chance that some informed third party will drop in and help us out with some new information - unlikely to happen in the world of PMs. Certainly I don't want your persecution complex cluttering up my inbox.

[Shazzanzzz]

I didn't realize knowledge of kanji was genetically encoded.

I suppose you have longer intestines more suitable for rice, too.

I don't know about rice. But I know I can't take milk and cheese as well as my lighter skinned counterparts. Or darker for that matter.

Jokes aside. I do find that comment somewhat offensive.

[Atonito]

OK if you want to understand or at least read about the concepts of Mushin and Fudoshin, and as me you are not able to read kanji , I suggest reading Classical Bujutsu , The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan, Vol I. by Donn Draeger. Both concepts are discussed there.

[bobdonny]

Feckin hell.......................

Quit talking crap and figure out what any of the "Shin" bro's (fudoshin, zanshin, mushin, shoshin, shingaurds) mean with hours of practice and bucket loads of sweat.

AND stop causing fights which is edgeing towards racism that I garauntee everyone will regret!

[Atonito]

bobdonny, I couldnt agree more!!!

[turboyoshi]

I haven't given much thought to fudoshin but I don't think mushin is that difficult a concept to understand, or explain.

Like, you're washing the dishes and out of the corner of your eye you notice a cup falling off the counter and without thinking about the details, you just reach out and catch it and place it back and continue with your dishwashing. That's mushin. At least, I believe that's what mushin is. It allows one to take action without needing to be conscious of the details. It's not BS and it's not mystical. It's just a very difficult thing to do willfully.

Although the mental state cannot be directly described, I'd bet most of us can find examples in our life when we experienced mushin without trying to consciously attain the state of mushin. The hard work for many of us is finding a way to translate that experience to kendo, being able to consciously enter this state of relaxed alertness.

sean

[Peter West]

The OP asked which is best to have in mind. That is a contradiction in terms. When you are thinking about them you are not doing/being them, you are only thinking about them, when you have them, there is no thinking. They are not something you can have in mind, or develop through trying to develop them. they come of their own accord when you're ready, then you don't even have to consider them, they just are.

[Karaken]

I have responded similarly in another thread in the past but if you allow me to summarize what can be very complicated concept..

In Baseball ( You are the Pitcher )

- When Babe Ruth is on the batter's box but you don't get rattled and follow your game plan - Fudoshin ( It takes guts but can be executed regardless of your rank/ability )

- When Babe hits a liner to you, you catch it ( Mushin - it takes years of training and/or some talent as well )

- Without enjoying your success of catching the ball too much, you throw the ball to the first base and get (1) more out - Zanshin ( Same as Fudoshin - you use and improve at any level )

Same can go for Tennis if you don't know baseball

- Not imtimidated by Rafael Nadal ( or Federer ) - Fudoshin
- Instinctly hit back close volley over the net - Mushin
- When it returns unexpectedly, you're still alert to hit back - Zanshin

So Fudoshin and Zanshin can be used by any level and somewhat more important to beginning level than Mushin which requires more training to be able to respond or initiate moves without planning or thinking.

For higher level kenshis, Zashin isn't normally a problem but we've seen a moment of lapse even in the highest level ( AJKF torny for example ).
Mushin and Fudoshin are easier concept to understand but a hard ones to execute, at least for me.

[DCPan]

Sometimes, I feel that it is “almost” an advantage to learn these concepts when you don’t know the language because then you can approach these concepts without preconceptions of what they should mean.

More often than not, there is a religious/philosophical root to these terms that means something different than how you would expect it to mean from reading the kanji alone.

Then again, I suppose you could say we are never without preconceptions…who knows :D

[Josh Reyer]

Personally, I don't care if one is Japanese, Taiwanese, Lithuanian, Scandinavian or Librarian, what matters is knowledge of Japanese. Not kanji, mind you. Too often, being able to decipher individual kanji or kanji compounds is taken as knowledge of Japanese, and the language is much more than that.

Masahiro, you may very well know the kanji, but judging from what you've written, at least, it does not appear that you understand the word as it is used in Japanese budo circles. Your description of the word as meaning "absence of mind" is far off, as I tried to indicate. Your implication that it means "without thought" is further afield. It's the "Last Samurai" interpretation of "mushin". "Kokoro/shin" is always there. "Absence of mind" is 放心 ("separated mind") and indicates being in a daze, being absent-minded, distracted, not aware of what's around you.

Literal deciphering of the kanji can lead to "absence of mind" mis-understandings, but in a Japanese budo context, particularly with the influence of Buddhist morphology, the word has a fuller, more nuanced and contextual meaning that makes it a very apt term. It means lack of deliberation, lack of distraction, lack of fear, lack of doubt, lack of joy, lack of sadness. Notice a pattern? The mind touches on a thousand different thoughts and dwells on none. Thus, mushin.

For the longest time, I belabored under the typical misunderstanding of "mushin". I thought that after enough practice, if I reached the ultimate, my body would move spontaneously, without thought, like Matt Damon in the Bourne Identity. But after becoming familiar with the term in it's natural idiom, and discussing it with the headmaster of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, far from being B.S., it was a revelation. The term made practical sense in way it never quite did before.

As far as opinions go, everyone's entitled to them. You're fully within your rights to say that mushin is B.S. And others are then within their rights to opine that your opinion is wrong. Consider, though, that "mushin is B.S." is a fairly inflammatory statement. You are, in effect, saying that anyone who believes in "mushin", who trains with that goal in mind, believes in and trains toward B.S. Not only that, you also implicate their respected teachers and seniors. If I were to say, "Kendo is B.S.*", although it may merely be my opinion, I should certainly expect strident disagreement. (Pithy contradiction would be the best I could hope for.) People, as a general rule, don't willingly spend their time on B.S. things if they can help it. "I believe mushin to be a flawed wording," just by itself can lead to discussion, and cordial disagreement (or shared learning). "B.S." is a big gun; don't pull it out unless you're prepared to handle the recoil.

FWIW, I disagree with you about "mushin" being flawed wording (although I would certainly agree with the idea that it's often misunderstood due to kanji decoding), and believe, based on what you've written, that you have the wrong idea of what "mushin" means. But it's nothing personal. I love the Japanese language, and love talking about it. If I've gotten the wrong impression from your posts, and you have some ability in the language, nothing would please me more than to discuss it, its nuances, and concepts.

*For the record, I don't think kendo is B.S.

[DCPan]

Too often, being able to decipher individual kanji or kanji compounds is taken as knowledge of Japanese, and the language is much more than that.

Literal deciphering of the kanji can lead to "absence of mind" mis-understandings, but in a Japanese budo context, particularly with the influence of Buddhist morphology, the word has a fuller, more nuanced and contextual meaning that makes it a very apt term.

This is something that I’ve been wondering about for quite a while now.

Perhaps I buy too much into the whole different path up the same mountain ideology, but I have a hard time believing that you have to understand “Japanese” to understand these concepts.

Not being a scholar in these matters, I would still gather that these terms were explored in Buddhist thoughts long before they were used in Japanese budo.

Therefore, in my mind, understanding the “Buddhist” morphology of the term is more important than understanding the Japanese Budo context of the term, because AFAIK, Japanese Budo borrowed these terms to describe the concepts that they are trying to describe.

So, I guess my question for you is this. Since you have access to these understanding from training in a koryu that most of us do not, in your view, are the meaning of these terms rooted more in Japanese Budo or Buddhist Thought? Or, in other words, does the Japanese Budo context of the term differ that much from how it is used in Buddhist thought?

Thanks!

[Shazzanzzz]

Like, you're washing the dishes and out of the corner of your eye you notice a cup falling off the counter and without thinking about the details, you just reach out and catch it and place it back and continue with your dishwashing. That's mushin. At least, I believe that's what mushin is. It allows one to take action without needing to be conscious of the details. It's not BS and it's not mystical. It's just a very difficult thing to do willfully.


i beg to differ.

Mushin in buddhist and daoist terms means not letting outside desire influence you.
In other words, if you're at mushin, you keep washing your dishes and let the cup drop off the counter.

[DCPan]

i beg to differ.

Mushin in buddhist and daoist terms means not letting outside desire influence you.
In other words, if you're at mushin, you keep washing your dishes and let the cup drop off the counter.

LOL, I would have called that ("catching the cup") "zanshin", but again, this use of zanshin seems to differ from how people are interpreting zanshin these days :D

[DCPan]

Notice a pattern? The mind touches on a thousand different thoughts and dwells on none. Thus, mushin.


So, then, if I have a goal to work on something particular in keiko or uchikomi today, then do I, by definition, won’t have mushin?

Or, can we consciously work toward something without dwelling on it?

I guess I’m trying to decipher what “dwelling” is…

I’ll dwell on it. :D

[Shazzanzzz]

Personally, I don't care if one is Japanese, Taiwanese, Lithuanian, Scandinavian or Librarian, what matters is knowledge of Japanese. Not kanji, mind you. Too often, being able to decipher individual kanji or kanji compounds is taken as knowledge of Japanese, and the language is much more than that.


Couldn't disagree with you here more. Mushin is a zen buddhist/daoist term used by martial artists, and in this particular case, japanese martial artists who are deeply rooted in zen buddhism. Zen buddhism and the original scriptures in japan would written only in chinese characters. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, hirigana and katakana were invented TO simply those scripture. I seriously have no idea how Japanese feel about kanji and their understanding of it and their understanding of their own language. Seems like the younger generation of Japanese I know can care less about kanji. But that's the same with Chinese, Taiwanese, and korean kids. Simplified Chinese have lost a lot of what traditional chinese really is. I know a lot of Chinese people that don't understand the difference between two characters that have the same sound and completely different meaning and completely different original character because they now use the same charater for it. A Korean friend of mine told me the same thing. Because they used a sound based written system now, most people have only the slightest idea the origination and orignal meaning of some words and phrases.

I would agree with you that Japanese is more than Kanji. But Kanji is kanji.

[Masahiro]

To Kingofmyrrh >> "persecution complex" eh? Maybe in my "own words" it would be "retaliative complex". but, to each his own. let's walk away with a you win and I win situation, I am not going to clutter up your inbox. And I promise from this point forward my posts will only pertain to the original purpose of this tread.

Kent>> You shot yourself in the foot there.

Bod>> couldn't agree more,

Sean (turboyoshi) >> "Although the mental state cannot be directly described, I'd bet most of us can find examples in our life when we experienced mushin without trying to consciously attain the state of mushin." <<I agree, good input. thanks.

karaken>> I really like the similes you drew between sports and kendo.

DCPan>> hmm i've never thought about it that way. Not knowing the kanji gives you the advantage of entering the discussion without any preconceived notion. That's interesting, although, don't we learn by association? and in that sense so long as we are exposed to these "concepts" by people, pre-written text, aren't we all subjected to "incomplete" understanding? I guess then the only remedy is to spend hours upon hours in reflection and training huh? hahaha, I really wish we can meet in person and have a beer or two. In July maybe?

Josh>> in hindsight, as one of my sempai said "I shot myself in the foot". In other words, I agree that "B.S" is a big gun and in this case I wasn't fully prepared for such a dramatic "recoil". I really liked when you said "The mind touches on a thousand different thoughts and dwells on none. Thus, mushin." but in the regard, I have I would think that some other concept describes (what I quoted in parentheses) better than "Mushin". (hence I still say mushin is flawed wording) But I fully recognize the error and flaw in my perspective especially after having read what you said about "mushin" and the conclusion you reached after talking to your soke. I also agree that things (especially kanji) at times can not be taken and dissected individually. Although, you know what? "放心 ("separated mind)" is not the way I would have interpreted it. it would have been "at ease" for me. Seriously, I speak the language. So, uhmm. hahahahah. anyways. But some other time in a p/m perhaps. p.s I am more of a Buddhist than anything, but I am certainly now Budo or Buddhist scholar, just a curious kids who hung out with various old farts who said a lot of interesting things when I was little.

Shazzan>> you are quite the "thinker" lately aren't ya? with your last comment? I just don't know what to think. I know fully what you mean about just letting the dish fall. pheww. that'd deep man.


DC>> just one more thought before I exit here, since my mom's a Buddhist, and my whole family are of Buddhist tradition. I certainly think these (budo) concepts borrowed and derived from original Sanskrit are trying to aspire to be as useful for the samurai (or whoever else) as possible. In the purpose of passing on teachings like "do not be afraid of death, for everything in front of you is but an illusion" and blah blah blah. But in the end, the art of the sword is about "killing", once you draw out your sword, an instrument that was made to kill, you kill. That "purpose" certainly doesn't sit well with the Buddhist doctrine does it? So, as I've always said while "zen" and "budo" might intersect in their ideals. ..it certainly also diverge "drastically" in their path as well.


finally, all very good inputs everyone. thanks. And I will go and think about "why I keep shooting myself in the foot here".

[Neil Gendzwill]

I would agree with you that Japanese is more than Kanji. But Kanji is kanji.Really? I show Chinese people the kanji for kendo and they read it as "knife road". I don't speak/read Chinese or Japanese but it seems to me that kanji as used in Japanese can take on different meanings than as used in Chinese.

[turboyoshi]

i beg to differ.

Mushin in buddhist and daoist terms means not letting outside desire influence you.
In other words, if you're at mushin, you keep washing your dishes and let the cup drop off the counter.

I think that your definition of mushin isn't complete. Mushin means not being attached to the environment, it does not mean that you can ignore it completely. If you driving your usual route across a bridge, and the bridge happens to be out that day, you don't keep driving. If you are going for kote in a shiai and the opponent has seen your intent and moved to block it, you don't carry through with the strike to kote.

I didn't give thought to the value of the cup, it's shape, or color, or the fact that I need to catch it, or to the technique of catching it. I acted without conscious thought and without emotional attachment. Josh's post explains this better, I think, than i did.
DCPan: afterwards, I went back to my state of relaxed alertness, that would be the zanshin. At least, my understanding of zanshin refers to the mental readiness that occurs after the strike has taken place.

sean

[DCPan]

Really? I show Chinese people the kanji for kendo and they read it as "knife road". I don't speak/read Chinese or Japanese but it seems to me that kanji as used in Japanese can take on different meanings than as used in Chinese.

You know, I've heard that many times now. But honestly, it's hard to believe that any native Chinese speakers could be that ignorant of what those words are, because even if they know nothing of Japanese culture and Japanese budo, the words kendo are used in Chinese martial arts and Chinese popular culture ala martial art soap operas. You pretty much have to live in a vacuum to not know what that means. Maybe he/she was trying to be funny?

So no, I don't buy that.

I do buy that kanji meanings in Chinese and Japanese could vary widely....

YMMV

[Masahiro]

I didn't give thought to the value of the cup, it's shape, or color, or the fact that I need to catch it,

yes, but was there a "desire" even in the slightest degree of "want" in preventing the cup from falling? If there's no want, then there's no action right? :)


i am just picking your brains here.

Neil: that "knife road" sounds something more like what a (ignorant) japanese person would say when shown the kanji for kendo. Since "knife" is an entirely different "kanji" than the "ken" used in kendo. If I was a "Fresh Off the Boat" (a.k.a FOB) and knowing no other words to describe KENDO, i would have the the "sword road". In any case, the same kanji can be interpreted very differently depending on whether it's a Chinese, Japanese, or Korean speaking person that much is true.

[DCPan]

DCPan>> hmm i've never thought about it that way. Not knowing the kanji gives you the advantage of entering the discussion without any preconceived notion. That's interesting, although, don't we learn by association? and in that sense so long as we are exposed to these "concepts" by people, pre-written text, aren't we all subjected to "incomplete" understanding? I guess then the only remedy is to spend hours upon hours in reflection and training huh? hahaha, I really wish we can meet in person and have a beer or two. In July maybe?

I guess what I'm driving at is when you are a native speaker, you could dismiss a concept as "I already know that" and not look at it further...hence the comment we are never without preconceptions anyhow.

I'm not planning on being at Vegas in July right now, but yeah, I'd like to have a beer or two with you sometime :D




DC>> That "purpose" certainly doesn't sit well with the Buddhist doctrine does it? So, as I've always said while "zen" and "budo" might intersect in their ideals. ..it certainly also diverge "drastically" in their path as well.

Grasshopper indeed :D You need to watch more Louis Cha :D

The common explaination for that is as you become more skilled, you come to realize all the more how frail human life is, and need more Buddhist doctrine to help cope with your ability to harm without going crazy...so they say.

YMMV.

[Shazzanzzz]

Really? I show Chinese people the kanji for kendo and they read it as "knife road". I don't speak/read Chinese or Japanese but it seems to me that kanji as used in Japanese can take on different meanings than as used in Chinese.

Chinese character is open to inpretations. kendo means way of the sword. So someone 'could' intepret is as sword road. Chinese is not exactly a descriptive language. I hate reading technical papers in chinese... I had to translate some for my dad for his students in his university... it was impossible. but then again, it was better than reading their paper in english... Kendo is actually not a big one that chinese and japanese usage of kanji disagrees. It's just your chinese friends read it a different way. A bigger one that i can think of is 湯.

A funny story I heard from a relative. They went to a restaurant in japan and they didn't speak japanese... and they wanted some soup, so they wrote 湯 on a paper and gave it to the waitor. The waitor gave them hot water. Cuz that's what it basically means in Japanese although it means soup in Chinese as its current main usage. The fact is, in Han dynasty for sure I know that word still were only used for 'hot water' as Japanese uses it right now. I think they still used it in that context until Tang dynasty, don't know about beyond that. Chinese are actually a lot less of traditionalists than Japanese, and since chinese characters are their only form of written language which is not true for Japanese, Chinese usage of them transforms while Japanese haven't as far as I know. A lot of the Japanese political and government usage of kanji are exactly the same as how they used it in pre-ching dynasty china

[DCPan]

DCPan: afterwards, I went back to my state of relaxed alertness, that would be the zanshin. At least, my understanding of zanshin refers to the mental readiness that occurs after the strike has taken place.

I understand that as the official interpretation of zanshin.

However, I've always preferred the explaination that zanshin is like the moisture that stays in the tea cup after you try to pour it out. So, in my mind, zanshin is "ideally" ever present, and not just manifested after the strike...so, it's like being totally committed to your action, yet having enough remaining awareness to respond to changing conditions.

So, zanshin to me is commitment without tunnel vision, or doing without dwelling.

YMMV.

[Josh Reyer]

This is something that I’ve been wondering about for quite a while now.

Perhaps I buy too much into the whole different path up the same mountain ideology, but I have a hard time believing that you have to understand “Japanese” to understand these concepts.

Interesting use of quotes, there. :)

I believe that on the physical level, the concepts are inherent. So, from that perspective, one need not understand the Japanese concepts at all. They can be expressed in any language. And example of this would be the International Hoplology Society's terminology. "Combative flow state" for "mushin", or "psycho-physical dominance" for "zanshin/kiai/etc". In some ways, I think such original English terminology is much better for non-Japanese speaking practioners -- it's functional, intuitive. It doesn't bear the difficulties of translation.

Where I think knowledge of Japanese is necessary is if you want to discuss the meanings of the terms, as terms. In that case, you need idiomatic knowledge, preferably direct knowledge, because otherwise you get a Xerox effect going. And while yes, there are many paths up to the mountain, and no, words are not limited to what's in the dictionary, I personally don't believe every person's personal interpretation is equally valid. I'm a hard-core idiomaticist.


Not being a scholar in these matters, I would still gather that these terms were explored in Buddhist thoughts long before they were used in Japanese budo.

Therefore, in my mind, understanding the “Buddhist” morphology of the term is more important than understanding the Japanese Budo context of the term, because AFAIK, Japanese Budo borrowed these terms to describe the concepts that they are trying to describe.

So, I guess my question for you is this. Since you have access to these understanding from training in a koryu that most of us do not, in your view, are the meaning of these terms rooted more in Japanese Budo or Buddhist Thought? Or, in other words, does the Japanese Budo context of the term differ that much from how it is used in Buddhist thought?

Thanks!

I'm certainly for learning the Buddhist morphology. Every bit of information helps. Kenzen ichimi, as they say.

In Shinkage Ryu, "katsujinken" (typically read as "katsuninken") means that you give the opponent complete freedom to move, follow his movements, and win. Kamiizumi Hidetsuna took the term from Zen. In Zen, it refers to when a Zen teacher allows a student to pursue his own study. Thus, you can see the connection: both involve removing strictures and allowing freedom. But, the term in Shinkage Ryu has it's own distinct meaning within the Shinkage Ryu (budo) context. A Shinkage Ryu practioner can look at the Zen concept and say, "Ah hah!", but I don't know that a Zen Buddhist priest would necessarily feel the connection looking from the other side.

It goes back to the idiom thing. The meaning and nuance of the term is going to depend on the idiom in which it's used.

[Shazzanzzz]

I think that your definition of mushin isn't complete. Mushin means not being attached to the environment, it does not mean that you can ignore it completely. If you driving your usual route across a bridge, and the bridge happens to be out that day, you don't keep driving. If you are going for kote in a shiai and the opponent has seen your intent and moved to block it, you don't carry through with the strike to kote.


Actually a famous buddhist saying says: "Kill god if he's in your path. Kill Buddha if he's in your path."

You want to cross the bridge and you see the bridge is gone... build a bridge or swim across and continue forward. If you see the opponent intending to block the kote, you go get it anyways and live with whatever happens, because there's no such thing as 'consequence', only different results that contain both the good and bad no matter what happens.

That's my impretation of the buddhist philosophy.

[Josh Reyer]

So, then, if I have a goal to work on something particular in keiko or uchikomi today, then do I, by definition, won’t have mushin?


As I understand, no you wouldn't. But of course, keiko is keiko and shiai is shiai (in both the "match" and "real-life test" sense).

I'm frequently given "homework" by my teacher. Things to work on, be conscious of, and improve. But, when I demonstrate for him, I better not be thinking about any of that.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You know, I've heard that many times now. But honestly, it's hard to believe that any native Chinese speakers could be that ignorant of what those words are, because even if they know nothing of Japanese culture and Japanese budo, the words kendo are used in Chinese martial arts and Chinese popular culture ala martial art soap operas. You pretty much have to live in a vacuum to not know what that means. Maybe he/she was trying to be funny?

So no, I don't buy that.Sorry if you don't "buy it", I'm just relating what happened. This was with a couple of people I worked with from mainland China. Anyways, the point stands: kanji are used differently in some cases by Chinese and Japanese people. So saying "kanji is kanji" is simply wrong.

[Josh Reyer]

Couldn't disagree with you here more. Mushin is a zen buddhist/daoist term used by martial artists, and in this particular case, japanese martial artists who are deeply rooted in zen buddhism. Zen buddhism and the original scriptures in japan would written only in chinese characters. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, hirigana and katakana were invented TO simply those scripture. I seriously have no idea how Japanese feel about kanji and their understanding of it and their understanding of their own language. Seems like the younger generation of Japanese I know can care less about kanji. But that's the same with Chinese, Taiwanese, and korean kids. Simplified Chinese have lost a lot of what traditional chinese really is. I know a lot of Chinese people that don't understand the difference between two characters that have the same sound and completely different meaning and completely different original character because they now use the same charater for it. A Korean friend of mine told me the same thing. Because they used a sound based written system now, most people have only the slightest idea the origination and orignal meaning of some words and phrases.

I would agree with you that Japanese is more than Kanji. But Kanji is kanji.

無 and 心 are Chinese characters. "Mushin" is not a Chinese word (although, of course "wuxin" is). It's an important distinction. Since the Japanese have imported the word, they have added their own linguistic take on the term, and through various uses altered the meaning. Just as English has borrowed from French and Latin and altered the meanings of those words through time. I would say kanji are kanji, and hanzi are hanzi, but kanji are not necessarily hanzi.

[DCPan]

This was with a couple of people I worked with from mainland China. Anyways, the point stands: kanji are used differently in some cases by Chinese and Japanese people. So saying "kanji is kanji" is simply wrong.

Oh, I don't disagree that kanji is kanji. I'm just saying ignorance is ignorance. I would personally find the person's command of the language to be questionable at best, when they translate the kanji for sword as knife, Chinese or Japanese.

More than a couple of people will tell you that mainland Chinese and non-mainland Chinese folks use mandarin differently. The same Chinese characters could even mean different things, if it was used in Cantonese instead of Mandarin, or Taiwanese even.

I'm simply saying that setting the bar of understanding by anecdotal story of a few is just that.... Just ask a regular Japanese person what iaido or aikido is, and you'll still get funny answers.

YMMV.

[Oroshi]

A bigger one that i can think of is 湯.
My favourite is 手紙.

I'm sure Josh will correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that some Japanese interpretations of Chinese characters stem from the idea that words that sound the same have related meanings, as this is how native Japanese words work.

There are many other factors, of course. I may be mistaken but as far as I know 結構 simply means 'structure,' in Chinese, whereas in Japanese it also has a large number of additional colloquial meanings ('fine,' 'good,' 'enough,' 'no thank you,' etc.)

So Japanese may be written with Chinese characters but the Japanese interpretation of those characters can vary wildly from Chinese - even when the phrase in question originated in China. And even then, some of the phrases are Chinese translations of Sanskrit (and on top of that, some Japanese words that use kanji are Japanese transliterations of Sanskrit or other languages (馬鹿, for example - the meaning is Sanskrit in origin despite the written form coming from Chinese)).

Oh, and I understand neither mushin nor fudōshin. They're both things I hope I'll come to understand in time, but through training rather than trying to interpret the kanji. I do however find that being able to speak Japanese helps me immensely with some of the simpler budo concepts.


(Please forgive me if I'm a little incoherent. I've been in the pub having post-keiko drinks for the past few hours).

[DCPan]

In Shinkage Ryu, "katsujinken" (typically read as "katsuninken") means that you give the opponent complete freedom to move, follow his movements, and win.

While you are here..."satsuninto" please? :D

[Josh Reyer]

While you are here..."satsuninto" please? :D

Setsuninto is when you use your speed and power to dominate your opponent and win.

[DCPan]

Setsuninto is when you use your speed and power to dominate your opponent and win.

Is there a progression or preference involved?

[Kenshi]

Is there a progression or preference involved?

If you ponder it you see that both are valid methods to success in a combat situation, but that one is probably a more... advanced or "worthier" method of reaching that success. You have to remember that koryu/budo stopped being about combat per se almost from there inception. Anyway, Josh will add/correct this if im speaking incorrectly.

YSR is almost definetly the most famed of the koryu that uses zen buddhist terminologies, but that doesnt mean that buddhism was all there was to their methodolgy. Most koryu were more involved with native anamism and shugendo practises than buddhism... but they worded things in buddhist terms because the literate people were generally schooled this way. Anyway, thats a different conversation.


..... goodness....

Dont forget the kanji terms that came into being after Europe started roaming around the East..... and the Chinese terms that are of Japanese creation...　


..... stuff....

Japanese people study 国語 in school and speak 日本語. They still call the characters 漢字 and still translate them as "Chinese Characters" in English... which I think is very nice of them. They could easily change the name to 和字 or whatever. Completely different language from Chinese despite the shared history.

Of to keiko now, Ciao.

[mingshi]

Knife road

Pure ignorance. Your friend probably can't tell their knife with sword in Engrish either. Nor butterfly means butter that can fly.


馬鹿

It's now a understand-able word here. Much like 大激安, which didn't exist until a few years ago. Modern words keep evolving, being invented and getting borrowed back.


無心

There's an entire chapter on 無心是道 in 六祖壇經 if anyone fancy knowing more about it. Not a new Zen concept.

[Masahiro]

....無心是道 in 六祖壇經 if anyone fancy knowing more about it. Not a new Zen concept.


so I am happy to report that after reading through that "section", I for sure have no idea what 無心 is. It's too deep for me. :confused2

[Trent]

I have done some further research into 無心 and find it interesting that, although in this case 心 refers to mind, it can also refer to heart （こころ）. So, I believe that there is yet another deeper meaning to this phrase. Just some food for thought

[Karaken]

That chracter ( Shim - Jang ) is a part of the word describing Heart ( Physical - Medical ) so it might end up being the same thing which in Asia, is a common practice ( Mind = Heart )

[Atonito]

Theres a fine little book produced by the AJKF called the Japanese english Kendo dictionary, both definitions are translated there and since this is a kendo forum and they are the highest authority in kendo I suggest whoever is inrterested in the definition refers to it...quite a few missinformed posts on this thread.

[nonamehandle]

as to the original question to the thread, i am not sure which is better, mushin or fudoshin, or if even such a question is a question that can be asked. as to what these concepts entail, i agree pretty much with what josh posted in regards to mushin (not sure about fudoshin but that might just be due to my ignorance).


in regards to other comments on this thread, as others have pointed out, kanji/hanzi/hanja are some times thought of differently in the different cultures (the emphasis on which meaning of the individual character is the predominant one changes). however, for the concepts that we are talking about HERE, mushin (無心), fudoshin (不動心), the philosophical meaning behind them are pretty much constant for chinese/japanese/korean so i find the argument that kanji has different meaning for each cultures as non sequitur. all these have been in circulation and much talked about before any idea of budo, etc. arose. i.e. talk about the budo concept of mushin to a korean or chinese who is educated in the idea of mushin and he will instantly recognize that you are talking about the concept of mushin as applied to the field of martial arts.

there are other concepts in kendo which i find are somewhat new(?) and hence not constant amongst the cultures, one of them being 殘心 zanshin; koreans seem to prefer the term 存心 instead, which has a different nuance but of the "same" category (which the chinese prefer, not sure, but 存心 has a much longer history: as with fudoshin, this term is also from mencius).

as to the chinese speaker interpreting kendo as "knife road", it is understandable in my mind. hell, even i don't know the exact difference between "knife" and "sword" in english (me thinks knife is a small sword and sword is a big knife :)). as to the translation "road", the term "road" has the same nuance in chinese and in korean as does the term "way" in english. in english, "way" means both road/path AND method/path (the translators deliberately played on this similarity). as to the use of "do" in conjunction with martial arts, this is a relatively modern creation of the japanese and hence it is quite understandable that a modern chinese might not be able to immediately comprehend it; but explain what "kendo" is to him, and the person will immediately grasp what you are saying (since "do" does have the meaning that ken"do" has in modern chinese as well, just not used that often in conjunction with martial arts) and say "oh now i understand what you are saying, but in chinese instead of "do" we would probably use the characters 術 or 法."



無 and 心 are Chinese characters. "Mushin" is not a Chinese word (although, of course "wuxin" is). It's an important distinction.

not sure what you mean here, mushin (無心) is not a chinese word although wuxin (無心) is? do you mean to say that the japanese use of the term 無心 is different from the chinese use of the term 無心? and have used the different pronunciation to emphasis that they are different? since you have said that it is an important distinction just wanted it to be clear in my head.

[DCPan]

however, for the concepts that we are talking about HERE, mushin (無心), fudoshin (不動心), the philosophical meaning behind them are pretty much constant for chinese/japanese/korean so i find the argument that kanji has different meaning for each cultures as non sequitur.

Hear Hear! :D

[Kaijin]

Read Takuan Soho, 'Wonderous record of immovable wisdom'. He believed them to be the same thing. Of course if your just doing MA's as a sport / fitness thing {nothing wrong with that} don't worry about the spiritual side. If you are into the spiritual side hold on to that vexed feeling, there's no rational answer, both and neither are important. force your way straight through; Satori is right there.

[nonamehandle]

...If you are into the spiritual side hold on to that vexed feeling, there's no rational answer, both and neither are important. force your way straight through; Satori is right there.

interesting...in its extreme vagueness...but i guess that is because the light hasn't been turned on for me; maybe you can indulge me a bit more here :)

what do you mean by "vexed feeling"? can any vexed feeling do? e.g. will being vexed by thinking about a four sided triangle do as well?
"force your way straight through"? through what? rationality? vexness? vagueness?

vexed minds want to know...