Symmetry

[Andrei Arefiev]

With the jodo forum so quiet, this topic might bring some life back :) Or it might not...

In jodo there are plenty of techniques that are done "symmetrically" on both sides. Even if they are done on one side in kihon, we can still find them performed on the other side in kata, like kuritsuke. But I've been thinking about a certain sequence and found it lacking in symmetry :)

The sequence is the one which you find at the end of (seitei) kata 3 (Hissage) and 7 (Kasumi), as well as in Omote Tsubawari: after kuritsuke you thrust/push at the uchidachi and finish with hikiotoshiuchi. In all three you do it on the right side, presumably, because this is where you are after kuritsuke. If this is true, I'd expect to find exactly the same sequence in (seitei) kata 8 (Tachiotoshi). It is, however, different, and brings the shidachi into exactly the same position at the end, i. e. by performing kaeshitsuki he is turned to the other side to thrust/push and finish.

Has anybody heard any explanation of this? Is there some inherent advantage for doing this sequence on the right?

[torashin]

Hi Andrei

Never thought about this before. One thing I would comment on is what I've been shown previously on Tachi Otoshi (Talking Omote here not Seiteigata version) It is that immediately after Kuritsuki as Uchidachi starts to move back, lift the Jo & go straight into Kaeshi Tsuki. This way it becomes more like a strike to Uchidachi's face, forcing him to back off. This obviously puts the Jo on the right hand side too. Make sense??

Anyway, I thought I'd add something and see where it leads.

Any comments boys & girls ;-)

Cheers

[Fred27]

A very interesting question..I've never thought about kaeshi tsuki being used as a deterrent to force him/her off and back. I was taught that one application after a succesful kuritsuke was an imdediate strike upwards to the chin. Perhaps they are the same thing, except in the kata the strike towards the chin fails..but instead of stopping you imediately go to kaeshi tsuki instead.


Hi Andrei

Never thought about this before. One thing I would comment on is what I've been shown previously on Tachi Otoshi (Talking Omote here not Seiteigata version) It is that immediately after Kuritsuki as Uchidachi starts to move back, lift the Jo & go straight into Kaeshi Tsuki. This way it becomes more like a strike to Uchidachi's face, forcing him to back off. This obviously puts the Jo on the right hand side too. Make sense??

Anyway, I thought I'd add something and see where it leads.

Any comments boys & girls ;-)

Cheers

[torashin]

Hi Fred


after a succesful kuritsuke was an imdediate strike upwards to the chin. Perhaps they are the same thing,

Yes, exactly. That's what I meant!! Perhaps my English isn't that good :laugh:

How are you?

Cheers

[Fred27]

Heh! Nah, its just me thats spaced out after workd or I'd spotted that. :)

Yeh I'm fine mate..I will definietely be going to Spain this summer! How bout you?


Hi Fred



Yes, exactly. That's what I meant!! Perhaps my English isn't that good :laugh:

How are you?

Cheers

[torashin]

Absolutely :)

Should be very good, a little hot though ;-)

But beer should help :laugh:

CU Soon

[Andy_Watson]

Hi Andrei

Just trying to be sure I understand your question: are you asking why the thrust technique in Tachiotoshi is changed to ensure that the final strike is made from a right-facing hikiotoshi kamae?

Thinking broadly about how certain techniques fit into the SMR koryu structure, I have been told that Omote's purpose is to develop technical skill and a firm understanding of timing and distance. By that last point it feels like most of the Omote are served with relatively long-distance techniques, or perhaps I mean standard-distance techniques. In this, four of the Omote waza end with a hikiotoshi strike to the face which is a slightly longer distanced technique that the prevalent hikiotoshi strikes to the sword in the Chudan set. Therefore I wonder, is one of the technical aims of Omote to develop ones ability to conclude the kata with a right-hand hikiotoshi to the face? If so then it would seem that possibly Tachiotoshi is constructed to ensure that this happens, thus the choku-zuki found in Hissage, Kasumi, Tsubawari is replaced with a kaeshizuki to get the shijo to be left-foot forwards. Bare in mind that there are no left-sided hikiotoshi techniques in any of the SMR syllabus of kata.

Phew, I think I wrote what I meant to write but my stomach's rumbling now...

Regards

[Andrei Arefiev]

Hi, Andy!

Nice points, thank you.


Just trying to be sure I understand your question: are you asking why the thrust technique in Tachiotoshi is changed to ensure that the final strike is made from a right-facing hikiotoshi kamae?

No, not exactly :) I wasn't making any assumption as to which way is changed in relation to which. What made me think about it was the fact that from kuritsuke on both sides we go into tsuki and hikiotoshiuchi on the same side. Hence the question of symmetry.

Your observation that there are no left-sided hikiotoshiuchi anywhere in the curriculum of Shinto muso-ryu is interesting. I don't have much experience beyond Omote and it didn't occur to me to sit down with the books and look through them, therefore it is news to me. But I'm afraid, it only brings my question to the next level: why is hikiotoshiuchi only done on one side? To (almost) repeat my original question: Is there some inherent advantage for doing it on the right?

[Andy_Watson]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, that's a really good question and we might need to ask Muso Gonnosuke for the answer. I don't know if Mark, Fred or anyone else has asked that question of their sensei, I certainly haven't.

I am only guessing here so this is my opinion but the question may be answered as to why some techniques are done on both sides and some aren't. To answer this maybe we have to remember that SMR Jodo/Jojutsu was synthesized from other extant martial systems including the sword, staff, spear and naginata.

Gyakute uchi, both as a strike and as a sweep against the sword, is used on both sides of the body but as I understand it, this technique evolves from the staff where both ends and therefore both sides are used.

Hikiotoshi uchi and hikiotoshi kamae in particular look like they come from the waki-gamae of swordsmanship. As far as I know most conventional sword systems and techniques always have the right hand "forward" and waki gamae therefore doesn't seem to work on the left-hand side of the body. Subsequently the only time in which you have a left-facing hikiotoshi kamae is when you hold the jo in a reverse-hand grip and are about to do a typical bo technique (kuritsuke or tai atari).

To conclude then, hikiotoshi uchi only occurs on the right side as it is a development of waki-gamae which was always right-sided.

That, as I say is just my opinion based on speculation and on looking at the kata from Omote to Samidare.

Mark/Fred - any ideas/opinions from the Jodo Federations?

[Fred27]

I can email my sensei about it.

Oh..Speaking of left-handed techniques...I'm trying to remember a kata that uses the hidari (left) tai hazushi uchi. I havent done all the kata in the system, but I have seen them...I cant remembet hidari tai hazushi uchi being done. I know that in ichi rei (omote) the right handed tai hazushi is used..but I cant recall seeing it in hidari. I can ask my Sensei bout that too.

[Andy_Watson]

Fred

Ichirei does use left tai hazushi uchi, unless you're doing it in front of the mirror!

It also occurs in a slightly morphed format at the beginning of tsuba wari and hoso michi.

Actually I can't visualise a form which uses right tai hazushi uchi...

[Fred27]

Fred

Ichirei does use left tai hazushi uchi, unless you're doing it in front of the mirror!

It also occurs in a slightly morphed format at the beginning of tsuba wari and hoso michi.

Actually I can't visualise a form which uses right tai hazushi uchi...

Ok then..I mean the right side..(in retrospect)...right? :D

[Fred27]

I've just sent an email inquiry to my sensei.

But in the meanwhile we can do some more speculating. If we for a second assume that there is no left handed hikiotoshi used in any jo-kata, then we must also assume that there is a motivation for doing it both right and left in kihon.

My own two cents would be this: There are no left-handed hikiotoshi, but there are hikiotoshi no kamae used. These kamae must be taken as proper as on the right side. If you only do right hikiotoshi in kihon then you dont get much practice taking the left-sided kamae...So perhaps Shimizu sensei, back in the day when he was developing kihon, figured that since a new student is eventually gonna do left-sided kamae he might as well do a left-side hikiotoshi anyways.

[Andy_Watson]

Fred

Ah now I have had a response in the past about why we do left hikiotoshi in tandoku dosa and that appears to come from Shimizu Sensei's wish to exercise both sides of the body. This occurs again with right sided tai hazushi uchi.

Very likely that your speculation fits that model i.e. to develop ones ability to do the kamae on the left side.

I love speculation - no proof required (or wanted for that matter :ko:)

[Fred27]

Fred

Ah now I have had a response in the past about why we do left hikiotoshi in tandoku dosa and that appears to come from Shimizu Sensei's wish to exercise both sides of the body. This occurs again with right sided tai hazushi uchi.

Very likely that your speculation fits that model i.e. to develop ones ability to do the kamae on the left side.

I love speculation - no proof required (or wanted for that matter :ko:)

Hehe, thats the best kind of proof :D

You know it just hit me: my Sensei has been drilling us in just this "excercise both sides" principle. We recently started doing a new drill which essentially aims to perform a maki otoshi..though on the other side. Not because there is a similar technique in kage, but for the "train both sides" philosophy. Actually its quite fun :)

*edit*

One addition: I do believe that the ability to do a left hiki otoshi would have been practical in a real fight as you never know in what position you might end up in. I dont think the ashigaru of the Edo-period was forbidden to do a "leftie"...eventhough it wasnt apparent in the katas...Or, and this is more speculation, there was once a left hiki otoshi in one/more kata as far back as the Samurai-days though it was lost or simply changed over the years.

[Fred27]

I sense a disturbance in the force....

[Andy_Watson]

Wydat den?

Sorry, been training so haven't been able to reply.

You may be right about the ashigaru having a left hikiotoshi but as we are on speculation hyperspace I would think that, given that the bushi were prone to not be masters of every type of attack, just good at the right ones, they might not have bothered with the left side and instead developed that for gyakute uchi.

OOOH I LOVE SPECULATIVE CONVERSATIONS!!!

What else shall we imagine Fred?

Or you could just disagree with me and we can speculate why we have these opinions. I'm sure I can dredge up some memory of something someone said and link it tenuously to my side of the argument.

:ko::ko::ko:

[Andy_Watson]

Come on Andrei!!!

Let's have some communication from your side of Europe. Jeez we're putting in all the work here!

Bloody lazy Russians!

[Andrei Arefiev]

You can't ever do anything without help from the Russians, can you? ;)


I am only guessing here so this is my opinion but the question may be answered as to why some techniques are done on both sides and some aren't. To answer this maybe we have to remember that SMR Jodo/Jojutsu was synthesized from other extant martial systems including the sword, staff, spear and naginata.

I haven't thought about the spear, but you must be correct in this regard. As far as I know (not much), the spear is primarily used with the leading left hand, thus the tsuki part of the sequence we're talking about can be explained by the influence of the spear technique.


Hikiotoshi uchi and hikiotoshi kamae in particular look like they come from the waki-gamae of swordsmanship. As far as I know most conventional sword systems and techniques always have the right hand "forward" and waki gamae therefore doesn't seem to work on the left-hand side of the body. Subsequently the only time in which you have a left-facing hikiotoshi kamae is when you hold the jo in a reverse-hand grip and are about to do a typical bo technique (kuritsuke or tai atari).

To conclude then, hikiotoshi uchi only occurs on the right side as it is a development of waki-gamae which was always right-sided.

I've been thinking along similar, but slightly different lines. If you consider right hikiotoshiuchi (from the left-foot-forward hikiotoshi-no kamae), it is the left hand that applies the force (I hope I'm more or less correct here), i.e. the same as with the sword. And a bushi would probably have much more experience with the sword than with the jo, and thus would find this application of force quite familiar. Left hikiotoshiuchi would work fine to develop the body on both sides, but will probably never reach the same level of familiarity (and, therefore, quality) as the other one.

My 2 cents of speculation :)

[Fred27]

Hehe, "The force" bit...I saw Kim Taylor was online and I figured he wouldn't be able to resist this topic :)



I got a reply from my Sensei bout the hikiotoshi thing. He agrees that its easy to speculate bout these kinds of issues. Most likely we'll never know what the old Dangyo teachers thought about the right hikiotoshi, though my sensei, (again more speculation but based a little more on experience), felt that a bushi training jojutsu would prolly have trained the right hikiotoshi as it can still be used to deliever a powerful strike. Training both sides, even if it is just taking the kamae, would prolly not have been thought a wasted effort.

What my Sensei can say is that in our group we (try) to encourage this symmetrical theme and we do some drills to emphasize this. I've only done a few of those types of drills myself, but I find they really make you think about your body & weapon placement.

[Andy_Watson]

Actually it's a bit weird but when we practice left/right hikiotoshi against sword drill, the left side often feels more efficient and effective than the right (once you stop hitting it like a pleb).

I found this in karate too, most people's left hand punch was much more "resounding" than their right.

I think this is due to the fact that the right hand tends to encourage muscular tension working against the natural movement of the weapon or limb. But then again this is speculation. Or is it?

There, I hope that's as non-comittal as I can be...

[Kim Taylor]

Hehe, "The force" bit...I saw Kim Taylor was online and I figured he wouldn't be able to resist this topic :)

Hunh? Sure I can, or I was. I'm too old and eyesight too poor to try to follow the specifics you guys are talking about but as to why the lopsidedness etc. I can speculate too.

If SMR jodo started out with 5 techniques and had them added on by later generations, as I've read over the years, then you're going to start from a small and lopsided set of actions by definition.

Over the years as techniques are added you're going to get more symmetry by the nature of the weapon, being easy to use either side, but you'll have a bias toward techniques with a grip similar to the sword since that's going to be most comfortable for most students and instructors.

If an instructor figures it's good to "practice both sides" then you are going to end up practicing a kata on both sides... and that will be passed on to the next generation (or the one after that) as a kata added to the school.

I've seen "other side" kata removed from practice and I've seen them added back over my lifetime so I have no doubt this has happened in the past. Hey, I practice whole sets of kata that aren't officially practiced any more, just to be ornery and because they were added to teach some specific things that I still find useful to study. (Not jodo specifically, although I have been taught three different ways to do some of the tanjo kata... ). Variations that are wide enough become kata if carried on through a couple of generations.

Your private practice can also include modifying the kata, it won't hurt you a bit. The important part of any school isn't the kata, it's the kihon. With good kihon you can pick up and set down kata quite easily.

Kim Taylor