Playing to win vs. play to "not lose"

[KendokaJim]

At the last taikai I went to, I was fortunate enough to do well in individuals. I felt that I was "in the zone", and I feel it was due to a true lack of nervousness and fear of losing. When it came to the championship match, I felt very nervous because I knew what was at stake. I was afraid to lose. I played much more conservatively as a result, and I knew that I would lose because of it (and LOSE I DID!)

This was my first experience with successful competition, so I just wanted to know what everyone thought about entering shiai with an approach of trying to win as opposed to trying not to lose. Have any of you noticed a difference in your kendo as a result of your mental state in shiai?

[Kenzan]

This was my first experience with successful competition, so I just wanted to know what everyone thought about entering shiai with an approach of trying to win as opposed to trying not to lose. Have any of you noticed a difference in your kendo as a result of your mental state in shiai?


The moment I stop caring about getting the point, or looking good, or thinking on strategy, or form or anything else, I always get the point.

My problem is, my ego is generally and constantly bigger than anything else in the room.
:D

[Charlie]

Jim, I think you discovered something valuable about yourself and your kendo. That attitude totally made the differences in your performances. I bet some people can and do take a "don't lose" or conservative attitude with great success! But it depends on the person.

Me, I'm aggressive and am working on becoming more observant. So winning and losing usually doesn't enter into it for me. It's more like: "Okay, what do I have to do to take this guy out? Is he fast? What does he favor? Which of MY waza will work best against him, and with what timing?" Sometimes I've got it together, sometimes not.

[Gideon]

You might find some answers in the individual v. team strategy threads that are somewhere about on the forums.

[kensenbatusaii]

At the last taikai I went to, I was fortunate enough to do well in individuals. I felt that I was "in the zone", and I feel it was due to a true lack of nervousness and fear of losing. When it came to the championship match, I felt very nervous because I knew what was at stake. I was afraid to lose. I played much more conservatively as a result, and I knew that I would lose because of it (and LOSE I DID!)

This was my first experience with successful competition, so I just wanted to know what everyone thought about entering shiai with an approach of trying to win as opposed to trying not to lose. Have any of you noticed a difference in your kendo as a result of your mental state in shiai?


you might noticed

that you exploit less

any openings and opportunities

when you were trying not to lose

as opposed to when you

are trying to win?

it is the second character

at play in a match

when you gain ippon

on the first round.

:chinese::chinese::chinese:

[enkorat]

I played much more conservatively

Could you go into a little more detail about what you mean by conservatively?

I don't mean this to be confrontational. I sort of had a similar experience (but reversed) at the last taikai I was at...which I think was the same taikai you were at. But I'm sort of thinking about it still and wondering if what happened on my end was a good or bad thing.

[Lady_Kitsune]

The moment I stop caring about getting the point, or looking good, or thinking on strategy, or form or anything else, I always get the point.

My problem is, my ego is generally and constantly bigger than anything else in the room.
:D


So the best advise is putting your mind in blank?

[Kenzan]

So the best advise is putting your mind in blank?

I'm not at any sort of level to give advice on the subject, but that's what I've heard, and that's what *seems* to work for me.

[Lady_Kitsune]

I'm not at any sort of level to give advice on the subject, but that's what I've heard, and that's what *seems* to work for me.


Oh, I think I will try it them, maybe thinking too much is my problem too. Thanks

I wasn't being ironic with that question BTW

[Kenzan]

maybe thinking too much is my problem too. Thanks


Don't mention it.
My wife happens to say the same thing about me as well.

:D

[Chaby]

My biggest success so far was recently, a third place in mudansha division.
At the same time it was also a huge disappointment.

My goal was not to receive an ippon.
Amongst others I also failed on following a simple "tactic" of changing the rhythm and seme-datotsu pattern,and I believe it was because not wanting to lose,and that corrupted my usual Kendo.
After seeing the video of my shiai I was very disappointed ( and that is quite an understatement ). I really didn't recognize "my Kendo".
It was horrible,blocking frequently,and bending to the side,bending back etc.
Since the shodan shinsa is around the corner (in about four month) I decided not to compete until passing the shinsa.

[Trent]

As soon as the thought "win" comes into my mind, I cannot do kendo. Whether it be thinking about winning the next cut, or the match, I become a deer in headlights. I can get into a position to cut from, but as far as cutting goes, nothing happens.

I think that I understand what you mean about being "conservative", but there is fine line between not wasting cuts and not cutting at all (something which I am trying to work out myself). On the bright side, I think that you should be proud of your efforts and learn from the experience, bettering yourself and your kendo in the future.

[tango]

everybody's got their own opinion about taikai and how to approach it...

whatever folks' reasons are for taking part in taikai, my personal opinion is that playing "not to lose" really doesn't jive with the idea of sutemi in kendo...
if I go to a taikai as part of trying to make my kendo better, how does 'playing not to lose' accomplish that?

but... sometimes we work so hard to have good, "proper" kendo that competition can serve as a kind of break from the seriousness of it all.
i don't have a ton of taikai experience, but when i have had the opportunity to compete, i've always looked at it as a chance to keiko with somebody new. that way, i'm never really disappointed when i lose.. i'm too old and have bigger fish to fry than to worry about winning and losing..

having said all that, I'm not sure there are too many other ways to simulate the 'tension and pressure' of a shinsa like a taikai can...
and learning to deal with that pressure we put on ourselves is really important.... it can certainly mean the difference between passing and failing a shinsa, as I most recently found out!

[neko kenshi]

And here I aim to lose gracefully. A pretty high goal for me. :p

[Paburo]

At the last taikai I went to, I was fortunate enough to do well in individuals. I felt that I was "in the zone", and I feel it was due to a true lack of nervousness and fear of losing. When it came to the championship match, I felt very nervous because I knew what was at stake. I was afraid to lose. I played much more conservatively as a result, and I knew that I would lose because of it (and LOSE I DID!)

This was my first experience with successful competition, so I just wanted to know what everyone thought about entering shiai with an approach of trying to win as opposed to trying not to lose. Have any of you noticed a difference in your kendo as a result of your mental state in shiai?

Jim, i had to learn this the hard way in my last taikai as well. it is a regional taikai that i've won for the last two years. this year my aim was to win it again with 0 ippon against, so that i could do it "better"(in numbers) than last year. but i can tell you mate, the whole no-losing mentality is detrimental for your kendo. this year i even ended up getting a hansoku for 'poor sportmanship' (that is, in one team match i wasn't attacking much at all. i was waiting several minutes for that 'perfect' opportunity while just playing defensively... i guess that's what you call playing 'conservately'). after the hansoku warning i engaged full throttle and got 2 ippon in like 30 seconds...

on individual semifinals, in an effort of not losing any ippon, and looking for the 'one perfect' opportunity, i let the minutes pass without even attacking much, risking 0 chances of losing. naturally, the match ended in hikiwake and further encho. when i watched the video afterwards i could clearly see the shimpan not very content about the bout. and i agree, i think that is the worst match i've ever fought. in the end i lost to what was imho, a very crappy ippon. but again, given the circumstances (only the other guy was attacking and attempting ippon at all), i guess the shimpan had it clear about how to end the match.

sometimes not risking anything at all is the biggest risk.

when i approach shiai with a more sutemi mentality i think i can kick a lot more arse. i also get more ippon against me, but i usually respond with a lot more ippon as well.

now this is my short term goal in kendo. instead of waiting for the opportunity, create it. instead of fearing that if i attack i might risk something, think that if i attack anytime with enough determination and spirit my attack will eventually be non-stopable, non-counterable, crushing.

these are the kind of things sensei tell us all the time, but only get into our heads once we lose and live them for ourselves...

[KendokaJim]

Could you go into a little more detail about what you mean by conservatively?

I don't mean this to be confrontational. I sort of had a similar experience (but reversed) at the last taikai I was at...which I think was the same taikai you were at. But I'm sort of thinking about it still and wondering if what happened on my end was a good or bad thing.

By conservatively, I mean that even when I attacked, I was trying to avoid being hit. As a result, I had no zanshin, so even if I did have a solid ippon, it wouldn't have counted.

Thanks for all the replies!

[Shazzanzzz]

i love tournaments. it's too much fun. I more approach it like I wanna beat this guy so I can keep playing.
Sometimes I forget to calm myself and get too anxious, and that's when I lose. Sometimes it's just pure mental lapses. Like, "oh my god, did I just do that?" kind of things.

Not sure what your question is, because the only options in individuals are to win or lose. So, of course you should play to win. I see your question more as being too aggressive and anxious to being too tentative and overthinking. The answer for me is neither. When I'm doing good, I clearly analyze the situation and make decisive decisions and don't think about it. When I lose in tournaments it's when I'm overanxious and do something stupid. There's a fine line between anxiousness and aggressiveness. Sometimes I cross into anxiousness and that when i get into trouble.
I think that's why I always do better in team tournaments too. I care about not losing a point more, so I don't get stupid cocky and attack when I shouldn't.

[Inner_Silence]

Don't mention it.
My wife happens to say the same thing about me as well.

:D

LOL!!!!!!!!
too bad rep gods doesnt allow me to give you any more +++++rep!

anyway, I think that what I wrote in the "excesive blocking" should have been posted here... sorry for the mess :S