Questions about Instituto Niten [Archive]

kenichi

9th April 2008, 01:10 PM

Fred27

9th April 2008, 01:34 PM

Kishikawa? Niten Institute?

...

I dont think Kishikawa has a fan-club here on KW...quite the opposite. Kishikawas henchmen has gone on various martial arts forums trying to push their own version of who is leading the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu.

If you ask me, I wouldnt touch anything Kishikawa does with a 10 foot pole.

ScottUK

9th April 2008, 05:30 PM

Many teachers make a living from budo and quite a few insist on their students buying everything through them so they maximise their profits.

Some teachers practice for a while, discover that they want a menkyo before they have earned it, fall out with the teacher when it is not given, find another teacher who will give them a menkyo and set about on a campaign of hate and slander on the net to discredit the previous teacher once he has passed away.

I'm sure none of the above applies to anyone on this thread though.

Kaoru

10th April 2008, 07:48 AM

Hi am a new kendo practicioner, i live in mexico but i am brasilian and one day i bumped with some niten publicity and i was very happy to know that something like that existed outside japan. But until a few days i started no search in forums opinions of instituto niten, and i found some things in this forum that really surprised me. I dont wanto to start a discution or something i just want to know the thruth, for example is it truth that niten students have to buy their equipment from niten or kendo online obligatory, why is this, i personally dont see any problem of where someone gets its equipment as long as its adecuated. Also i want to ask, if Sensei Kishikawa practices all those styles, does he has a graduation in everyone of those, and if only a menkyo kaiden is authorized to pass knowledge then shouldt he be a menkyo kaiden in every style in order to teach it? as i already stated am new in these kendo and kenjustsu subject so i dont understand nor pretend to to know more. Also i read that you can become a "coordenador" after 1 year of practice, but for example in kendo you need like 2 or 3 years to become a shodan, so i see kind of weird that a 1 year practicioner can already teach others, because i consider it just too few time of practice, again i can be wrong, so please correct me if i am.

Finally i would like to know what the CBK thinks about Kishikawa sensei because, if they support him that would stop all the claims. Well thats about it, i considered myself kind of a student of Kishikawa sensei because although i coudnt attend to a instituto niten since i dont live in brazil, i would always see its web page and get his books, and i wanted to go to brazil to study there the styles they teach, but this things that i have read really disapointed me and i would really like to know the thruth. Please not only Administration of Niten but everybody make an opinion, i think everyone wants to know the reasons and motives of those questions and if its a set up for fools then to be warned.

Thanks

I think you should just read the threads on the Niten Institute. They would answer your questions quite well. Suffice it to say, Kishikawa is not qualified, nor does he have menkyo to teach HNIR, Suio Ryu and whatever else he claims. And, you would be well advised to stay far away from them.

Here are threads to read:

Instituto Niten (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244&highlight=Niten+Institute)

Kendo/kenjutsu dojo in Brazil (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4335&highlight=Niten+Institute)

There are a couple more, but these should help you enough, I think.

Btw, just because you have read their books and viewed their website does not mean you are a student of the Niten Institute. You said you are in Mexico, so that's not possible to be a student of the IN. There are legitimate kendo dojos in Mexico. You do belong to one of them right, seeing as you said you are a new kendo student? So, imho, you should respect your current sensei and not bother with McDojo like this.

Hope this helped! :)

Kaoru

Roberto

10th April 2008, 08:06 AM

Kendo/kenjutsu dojo in Brazil (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4335&highlight=Niten+Institute)

There are a couple more, but these should help you enough, I think.

Btw, just because you have read their books and viewed their website does not mean you are a student of the Niten Institute. You said you are in Mexico, so that's not possible to be a student of the IN. There are legitimate kendo dojos in Mexico. You do belong to one of them right, seeing as you said you are a new kendo student? So, imho, you should respect your current sensei and not bother with McDojo like this.

Hope this helped! :)

Kaoru[/QUOTE]

Kaoru made a big point on it ;)

Fred27

10th April 2008, 01:40 PM

I think you should just read the threads on the Niten Institute. They would answer your questions quite well. Suffice it to say, Kishikawa is not qualified, nor does he have menkyo to teach HNIR, Suio Ryu and whatever else he claims. And, you would be well advised to stay far away from them.

Not to play devils advocate, but it seems Kishikawa has some connections with Kaminoda Tsunemori Sensei of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo. The latter has visited for teaching seminares with the former. That doesnt necessarily mean that Kishikawa has a Menkyo in SMR-Jodo, but if Kaminoda Sensei hang out with Kishikawa than that counts for alot. (Kaminoda Sensei aint no McDojo dude)

nonamehandle

10th April 2008, 02:24 PM

just out of pure curiosity,

is instituto niten a large organization in brazil? how does it compare to the brazilian kendo federation? is there a certain amount of overlapping in the hierarchy of the two organizations? and the question that i am most interested is, since the next world's will be held in brazil, and there will be certain amount of media attention, will the brazilian media be able to discriminate the difference between instituto niten stuff and kendo?

(i've read the threads, but the e-budo ones are gone, and the KW threads are a bit old)

Kaoru

11th April 2008, 07:59 AM

Not to play devils advocate, but it seems Kishikawa has some connections with Kaminoda Tsunemori Sensei of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo. The latter has visited for teaching seminares with the former. That doesnt necessarily mean that Kishikawa has a Menkyo in SMR-Jodo, but if Kaminoda Sensei hang out with Kishikawa than that counts for alot. (Kaminoda Sensei aint no McDojo dude)

The problem with Kishikawa is, he talks a lot, but does not do.

Kaminoda-sensei may not be a McDojo person, but just hanging with him does not mean the guy(Kishikawa) has any decent training in Jodo or is qualified to teach it. He may have just gone to a couple seminars and gotten a photo taken or whatever and had dinner with him or something. I think Hyaku-sensei would know much more about this. Anyway, with all the lies this guy told about Hyaku-sensei and how he's had so little HNIR instruction it's not even funny but lies, and says he's had oodles of it, and etc, I'm not willing to believe a word he says. He's not even authorised to teach the other swordarts he's claimed he can teach.

Oh yeah. Taking seminars does not mean a person is qualified to teach. That's like having only a lesson here and there. That's not good enough to have had enough instruction to teach. He'd needed to have real training in a dojo on a weekly basis for a long time.

You know, Kaminoda-sensei could be asked if the Jodo qualifications were true if someone bothered to ask him about it. I'd be willing to bet it isn't. But, until then, we don't know for sure for that one.

Kaoru

Kaoru

11th April 2008, 08:35 AM

just out of pure curiosity,

is instituto niten a large organization in brazil?

It's huge. He's spread at least 40 of his McDojos all over Brazil so far.

how does it compare to the brazilian kendo federation?It doesn't compare. The Niten Institute is McDojo and not recognised by the IKF. and the Brazilian Kendo Federation is a legitimate organisation that is a member of the IKF.

is there a certain amount of overlapping in the hierarchy of the two organizations?
I would think not. That's because they are two different things entirely.

and the question that i am most interested is, since the next world's will be held in brazil, and there will be certain amount of media attention, will the brazilian media be able to discriminate the difference between instituto niten stuff and kendo?
I don't think they can compete in the WKF since they are not an IKF federation. Only IKF affiliated organisations can compete as far as I'm aware. His McDojo stuff certainly does not qualify. So, there won't be crap involved. And so, the media won't need to figure out which is what.

(i've read the threads, but the e-budo ones are gone, and the KW threads are a bit old)
Even if they are old, the truth is the truth. If you want more, just ask Hyaku-sensei. He'll tell you the same thing.

The threads on e-budo still exist except about one or two Hyaku-sensei deleted because Sidharta got annoying and a little nasty. Hyaku-sensei finally got sick of the nonsense. You can find some of the threads still existing by typing in the search area:

Niten Institute-brings up several threads.

Kishikawa-brings up a couple others as well.

Kaoru

nikozamo

12th April 2008, 06:07 AM

we have a niten-stupid-stuff also here in chile. one thing to do: don't pay attention.

Fred27

12th April 2008, 03:43 PM

Kaminoda-sensei may not be a McDojo person, but just hanging with him does not mean the guy(Kishikawa) has any decent training in Jodo or is qualified to teach it.

I agree, it doesn't, but we cant dismiss the possibility that he might have some legit connection. At least not before we've heard something more concrete pro/against. :)

Kenshin666

14th April 2008, 01:41 AM

Hello, folks, I'm kinda new here in Kendo World and hope you all forgive me for my bad english. I really enjoy the forum but I'm not used to write in it...mostly because I don't have time and my english isn't so good. :)

Well, I have trained in Instituto Niten for a few time. Everything is "good" (despite everything people already discussed here and I will talk about it) but the major problem is one: money. They charge in a abuse way for everything. First of all, you must buy all equipment from a store called "kendoonline", which is owned by Instituto Niten (of course they don't tell you Kendoonline is owned by them but they say it's their "official supplier"); second, you must pay taxes for your membership in "Confederação Brasileira de Kobudô" (Brazilian Kobudo Confederation), which Instituto Niten is the only member and Jorge Kishikawa is the president (!!!); third, they charge alot for the classes (they say it's the same in Japan, where all sensei charge for the classes!!). If you know the brazilian reality you'll see they charge a lot of money...

Like an business, they use the media (newspapers, tv, internet) to spread dojos all over the country. They send the senior members to teach (although most of them don't have the knowledge to teach - some have olny a few years of trainning some have more than 10 but...) and Jorge Kishikawa goes once or twice a year to every city's dojo.

They claim to teach kenjutsu but no one evey saw the papers (licences) nor any Sensei/Shihan/Menkyo or whatever came to Brazil and said Kishikawa is "the official representative of the ryu". They always have an excuse: "Imai wont come because the other sensei died", "Kishikawa is student under Imai Massayuki", "The senseis are fighting for the succession, Imai were expelt from the ryu and are now telling lies to the world", etc.

Kaminoda Sensei came one time with other senseis from Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo but every student had to pay like five hundred reais (something about 250 dollars) for 2 hours class. Those who were aloud and, of course, could pay, traveled with them across the country. Never knew if they teached us joDO (since Jorge Kishikawa's parents teache kenDO, joDO and iaiDO) ou Shindo Muso Ryu (kobudo)...and I think there is a great difference!

Since I couldn't pay for the trainning I was left aside. They offered me a "scholarship" (don't know if this is the apropriate word) but in fact I had to work for them in exchange of the trainning. To be sincere, they work like a cult: the students must read a book called "shin hagakure", which has the fundamentals of the Niten Institute, they are prohibited to join forums in the internet, orkut, and others, they are trained to always say "Hai"...without think..."Say hai first...think latter"....

I have many other things to say...but don't have time..if you want to talk about it send me a private message.

Thanks for the attencion.

nonamehandle

14th April 2008, 11:11 AM

thanks for the info kenshin

ScottUK

14th April 2008, 04:59 PM

Hi Kenshin,
Hello, folks, I'm kinda new here in Kendo World and hope you all forgive me for my bad english. I really enjoy the forum but I'm not used to write in it...mostly because I don't have time and my english isn't so good. Not at all - your English is excellent.

Thanks for the insight - and sorry to hear you had to suffer all that.

One little point::)

third, they charge alot for the classes (they say it's the same in Japan, where all sensei charge for the classes!!). If you know the brazilian reality you'll see they charge a lot of money...I can assure you this is not the case. When HNIR guys and girls travel to Japan for keiko, he takes time off work and uses up his scheduled days off to teach us and then refuses any kind of recompense or fee for his time and effort!

To emphasise Instituto Niten's money issues further, I will mention professional (paid) teachers who we bring to the UK to teach us various other JSA. Their flights and transport are paid for, they are housed, fed and watered and they receive a fee for their time teaching us. End of. There's no paying for grades, forced-equipment-buying or other extortion... and these are THE top boys of their respective arts.

Why do self-proclaimed masters (who are nothing of the sort) turn budo into a money-grabbing scheme?

Kenshin666

15th April 2008, 03:22 AM

Thanks Scott, but I still think it's hard to people really understand what I mean. ha-ha! :)

About all the sensei that don't charge for their teachings, this is something I discovered after I left Niten. It's hard to find any other dojo/scholls/sensei/groups because Niten advertising is very agressive. If you google "kendo" (in portuguese) you'll only find websites connected with them...in terms of "McDojo" they are maybe the biggest group in the world with almost 1000 students in Brazil and South America.

They were able to publish books, make appearences in the media (local and nacional), and control the internet. The members of CBK (Brazilian Kendo Confederation) just decided to ignore Kishikawa...I fear that in 2008, with the International Championship in São Paulo, they may use the media (that can't make a difference between Kendo and what Kishikawa teaches) to improve the business.

It's very sad to the image of marcial arts in Brazil, which has the largest japanese comunity outside Japan.

Thanks you all!

Rezende

3rd May 2008, 12:59 AM

My name is Sidharta Rezende and I am from Instituto Niten.
First, I'd like to apologize for my poor English.

I have been in this forum before sometimes, answering questions about us.
Sometimes that have been done peacefully, other times the things went ugly. I hope that is not the case now.

I think that the subject have been debated enough. But I'd like to complement what is been said in this thread.

For what I read, there are two points that causes "deslike" upon us.
-Prices
-Authorizations

About the first subject all I can say is that we are doing our best to try to keep the prices as low as possible.
But anyone who have been involved in trying to sustain an organization knows that there are a lot of costs that must be covered.
Today the prices are very lower than when I started practicing, 12 years ago.
And we are advancing more and more to have good prices in our fees.
About equipments, Kendo Online, our store, also ave been working hard to lower the prices. Today, K.O has better prices in Bogu that the Brazilian E-Bogu, for example.
Since last year we have also a scholarship program also. There is not required working to have the scholarship, but is is required to have a high percentage of presence in the trainings.

I don't know how you do in your countries and your clubs, but that is the way we managed to make our organization work. I am sorry that not everyone is happy about it.

As for authorizations on the ryu we practice, for those who read portuguese, please see this page:
http://www.niten.org.br/kobudo.htm

For those who don't, I'll try to summarize:
We practice mainly Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo and Shindo Muso Ryu.
-In Shindo Muso Ryu, as was told before, Kishikawa Sensei is student from Kaminoda Tsunemori sensei, who have been here for two times, in 2002 and 2005. We hope in the future have Kaminoda Sensei with us again.
There are photos about the visits in the following pages:
http://www.niten.org.br/shindo-muso-ryu.htm
http://www.niten.org.br/kaminoda-tsunemori-sensei.htm
http://www.niten.org.br/muso-gonnosuke.htm
I mention the photos because seeing it I believe you will note that they are not photos taken in International Seminars as have been said before.
Kaminoda sensei stayed with us for 2 and 3 weeks in his visits. We had a lot of trainings, including a full 3 days training opened for all the students who were participating on the seminar. Those were incredible days.
Kaminoda Sensei also teach Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijutsu, that we practice.

-In Suio Ryu, Kishikawa Sensei is student from Katsuse Soke for many years.
You can check the Suio Ryu official site:
http://www2.wbs.ne.jp/~nck/suiou/suioudoujou.htm
◎南米代表
代表　ジョージ岸川
稽古場所　サンパウロ、リオ、（他現在全３５ヶ所）
門下生　800名

-In Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kishikawa sensei is student from Gosho Motoharu Sensei and Yoshimochi Kiyoshi Sensei. Gosho Sensei gave Menkyo Kaiden to Kishikawa Sensei.
Gosho Sensei also teaches Sekiguchi Ryu Iaijutsu, and some of our students are beginning practicing.
Here in this forum there a few students from other line of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. There have been a lot of discussion here and in e-budo about this subject. I hope this don't start another "war" on this particular subject. I think we did that too much times in the past and it does not bring anything good to any of the sides on the discussion.

We are completely independent from CBK.
Even so, it is common we receive visits from Kendoka from many countries. We practice together in the spirit of Kouken Shiai.

I saw a post from someone from Chile in this thread. That caught my attention personally. I go to Chile once each 2-3 months. When I go it is common we receive visits from Chilean Kendoka. We have received people from Santiago and Temuco so far. I'll be there next time in June. Since now I invite you and your group to practice with us one day to make Kouken Shiai.

My direct e-mail is sidharta@niten.org.br . If anyone have additional doubts, please talk to me.

Regards,
Sidharta

bushikan

3rd May 2008, 01:15 PM

I don't know Mr. Kishikawa, I have never met the man however, in the past certain things were said that left me with a rather unpleasant taste in my mouth. I will leave those issues aside, though I have my own opinions on what was said for the sake of conversation I will leave them be. I however, have a question though about Mr. Kishikawa on a seperate topic. My portugues is no where near as good as it use to be, but after purusing the site I found some currious inconsistancies.

Your site has Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (TSKSR) listed as an art that Mr. Kishikawa is presently studding. Though Mr. Kishikawa is not listed as a representitive of TSKSR and apparently (though not licensed) teaches students TSKSR. I also noticed that on a TV special on Miyamoto Musashi Mr. Kishikawa displayed Kusunagi no Ken on television, instead of demonstrating something that he is certified to teach like Suio Ryu or Muso Shinden Ryu. There is also a video of Kishikawa and a student doing Itsutsu no Tachi on youtube. Though from what I understand this is not allowed by students of Otake Risuke. Publication and teaching of TSKSR is strictly forbidden unless otherwise permited by Otake Risuke and the 20th headmaster Iizasa Shurinosuke Yasusada.

So my question is (and I mean this as sincerely as possible):
1)How does Mr. Kishikawa justify his blaitent disregard of his blood oath to Futsunushi no Okami, Iizasa Shirinosuke, and Otake Risuke?
2)How can Mr. Kishikawa teach some near 1000 students six different koryu? And beilieve that he is passing on the traditions correctly? With that many stlyes the body cannot adapt completely to the style and its combative objectives. One studies a Koryu to understand what made a certain master of _______(insert type of koryu here) great. The reason one joins is to learn the techniques, stratagies, mindset, and philosophy of someone who essentially skilled at taking human life. Though there are phiolosophies in place to discern violent action, a samurai learned these arts simply to become aquated with how best to kill a man. It is hard to believe (with all respect) that with all these koryu Mr. Kishikawa can embody all the principles and mindsets with in each ryu (expecially being that each one is completely different from the next).

Please understand I ask these questions with the up most respect. I am not looking for a quarrel, nor the resentment of others (I have enough of that already). I am also not a practitioner of TSKSR nor any of the other style Mr. Kishikawa represents. These are just questions that have been perplexing me for some time.

Here are the videos I mentioned:
This is the video with Kusunagi no Ken
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VHjhNfwVzgA

This is the video with Itsutsu no Tachi
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IyD8NzE_TR0

Lastly Mr. Kishikawa teacher a total of 13 martial arts:
Gosho ha Niten Ichi Ryu
Sekiguchi Ryu
Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo
Masaki Ryū Fukuhara-Ha
Shinto Muso Ryu
Kasumi Shinto Ryu
Ittatsu Ryu
Uchida Ryu
Isshin ryu
Ikkaku Ryu
Muso Shinden Ryu
Kendo
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (un-licensed/ possibily unofficially/illegally)

Again with all due respect, that is alot of ryu for one person to handle let alone teach. In Japan Mr. Kishikawa might be consitered a "Black Card" of sorts (meaning that there is so much written on Mr. Kishikawa's buisness card that the once white card has painted blank from all the ink).

Again I mean no disrespect I am mearly looking for a answer to a few questions that I have had on my mind for quite some time. I have no relation to the majority of these ryu or their cooresponding affiliations. I hope these questions find you well and that a dialouge can be opened in a manner that can aviod the unfortunate transcrepancies of the past.

best regards

Rezende

4th May 2008, 09:32 AM

Mr Jeff Karinja

I understand that you are asking with no disrespectful intentions.
I'll try to aswer your question now, but I am a little busy for the next days. Later I will see this with more calm and if I find anything to add I'll do it.

(My english is also not what used to be)

About your question, I think there is a misunderstanding.

Kishikawa Sensei does NOT teach Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. Never did and as far as I know, don't have any plans of doing it.
Sensei is not disregarding his oath.

About the other question, and the 13 listed martial arts, I think that is not a right way to view it.
6 of the 13 are taught under Shindo Muso Ryu. Kaminoda Sensei also teachs de Muso Shinden Ryu. Many students of Kaminoda Sensei practices de 7 traditions.
Sekiguchi ryu and Niten Ichi Ryu are very different arts, but are taught by Gosho Sensei. There are many people in Oita who practice or have practiced in the past both ryu with him.
And Masaki ryu is taught with Suio.

Please note also that not all of the near 1.000 students practice all the ryu.
As everyone, we have busy lifes.
Some practices Niten Ichi Ryu. Other Suio. Other Shindo Muso Ryu (and the Fuzoku ryu-ha).
Some of us practices two. A few the three.
Muso Shinden Ryu ans Sekiguchi Ryu, right now, are practiced in Gashuku, direct with Sensei.

The arts are taught in different days. In the past we made different, but Sensei decided to make this way exactly to keep different thinks separated.

I hope I could answer your question. If you like to any other question I'll be happy to answer. If you prefer, that can be in a PM .

Regards,
Sidharta

Fred27

4th May 2008, 06:26 PM

So Sidharta is back again with polite words mixed with BS. You've already been banned from E-budo (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/member.php?u=4728) for your sad excuse for a campaign (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9840) against Iwami Toshio Sensei.
You guys are fast becoming a well-known name in the martial arts world..Though I've yet to hear any words of respect and admiration being directed towards the "Institute".

Enjoy your (hopefully) brief stay.

bushikan

5th May 2008, 12:58 AM

Kishikawa Sensei does NOT teach Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. Never did and as far as I know, don't have any plans of doing it.
Sensei is not disregarding his oath.

That does not seem to be correct as he did teach somone. All you have to do is look at the video. I'm not quite sure why it is nessesary to post such a video online for everyone to see. You already have 1000 students (800 of which are in Suio Ryu) most dojo(s) unless a proper licensed Shidosha was avalable to open another branch would have closed their doors new applicants already to provide their current students with continual attention to foster their growth.

The two videos here already displayed what Mr. Kishikawa has done, teaching and exposure of TSKSR:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IyD8NzE_TR0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VHjhNfwVzgA

Again I am not a member of TSKSR but from what I understand what Mr. Kishikawa did so far might make him a canadate for Kamon (a formal expulsion from the tradition) though I doubt it will happen as it is a very severe action. It is something your teacher might want to be more careful of in the future however, as what he did is rather blaitent, and defidently unessesary.

The rest of your response seems fair, however:

Muso Shinden Ryu ans Sekiguchi Ryu, right now, are practiced in Gashuku, direct with Sensei.

So your saying that you do not have formal classes for Muso Shinden Ryu or Sekiguchi Ryu, rather it is just taught to students during a seminar. Not the best way to train but, ok. However.... If these schools are not part of your formal curriculim why list them? It seems rather unessesary as Suio Ryu is a fantastic Ryu-ha and today proves to be one of the comprehensive of traditions. Sekiguchi Ryu from what I have seen and heard from their members is completely different in all respects to Suio Ryu. Power is generated from the left hand not the right and cuts are preformed in a rather quick snapping manner to cut through the vital part of the human body (much like how a butcher cuts through a chicken while cleaning it to avoid dulling the blade). I would think that this would prove to only confuse students as the body mechnaics and distrobution of power is vastly different. It is a method of cutting that I doubt I would be able to correctly adjust to correctly as I have adapted to arts decended from Shinkage and Hayashizaki methodology.

I have no more questions

Kenshin666

5th May 2008, 10:51 AM

Hello everyone,

Since I exposed some facts about the "Institute" I thought my participation in this matter was over. But, since Sidharta-kun (don't know if I should use the term "sempai") joined the thread, I think I'm quite responsible to add some information:

1) Kishikawa sensei doesn't teach 1000 students. How could he? Brazil has the size of a continent. The person who teached us was a person just like Sidharta: a "sempai", someone who trained for some time (some for 10, 15 years and others, like I said before, for just 2 or 3). Kishikawa Sensei goes to each Dojo once or twice a year to see how things are going. In São Paulo, his city, I think he can be more present but in all the other locations, it's just impossible.

2) I trained in two different citys and in these two Dojo, the "sempai" incharge always told us we were training TSKSR, Suio Ryu, Niten Ichi Ryu, etc. All mixed. All "kobudo" as they say.

3) If someone had a question, he/she shouldn't look out on the internet. It's forbiden and you may be expelt if you try and be discovered. Have a question? Ask the "sempai"...if he dosen't know the answer, wait for the sensei anual visit and ask him in person.

4) About the fees and all the other taxes: a) we all paid for a membership (Brazilian Kobudo Federation), which Niten Institute is the ONLY MEMBER. They don't accept or legitimate any other sensei or school (Ryu) in Brazil. The official answer is "We don't have knowlegde of any other schools in Brazil". b) The fees are very expensive..alot of money for only one or two trainnings per week. c) there is also an annual tax (never knew what is this money is for). d) they charge for the use of the dojo's bogus. The money is supposed to be used in the maintenance of these material but if you sum all the money students pay every month I think they could buy hundreds of bogus, kotes, mens, and dos. As far as I know, all the bogus used by Niten Institute are donations from IKF!!

The Kendo dojos I know have the same costs (local, common material, etc) and they don't charge as much as the Institute...what is the answer? In my opinion, all the Kendo Senseis don't want to make money from Kendo. They don't need the students to pay for their "shugyo" in Japan.

5) There is no point in discuss the authorizations. This subject is a tabu in Niten Institute. No one I know ever saw any paper but each one will swear Kishikawa sensei has everything he needs to teach any art, weapon, move or whatever he wants. If you are training there, you must believe everything the sempais tells you. An exemple? First, Iwami Toshio was Kishikawa's teacher, he was supose to come to Brazil and teach us too. Then, Iwami was a liar, and Kishikawa sensei never studied under him, but under Gosho Motoharu. Why no one ever mentioned Gosho Motoharu before this? Why all the pictures they showed us don't have Gosho sensei but only Iwami sensei? Strange, but if they say Iwami is bad...oh yes...now he is bad.

I know Sidharta-kun believe in Kishikawa sensei. Also know he will do anything to preserve the Instutute image. But...what can I say? There is a lot of good people in wrong places. Institute Niten is not a Dojo, it became a business...and a good one! Under the "modern samurai" theme they are able to reach many people...

Thanks for the attention. Anyone who wants more information just send me a private message.

Kenshin666

5th May 2008, 10:59 AM

I forgot to say: as I have already read many of the other threads about the Institute Niten, it's not my goal to start any war. My questions were never answered until I leaved the Institute and started my own research. I went through alot in my days at Institute Niten and know many others are in the same position right now. Hope they can find their own way as well.

Rezende

6th May 2008, 02:18 AM

Again I am not a member of TSKSR but from what I understand what Mr. Kishikawa did so far might make him a canadate for Kamon (a formal expulsion from the tradition) though I doubt it will happen as it is a very severe action. It is something your teacher might want to be more careful of in the future however, as what he did is rather blaitent, and defidently unessesary.

I'd like to talk a little more on this subject.
Regarding TSKSR, Otake Sensei is aware of those videos and of all demonstration.
Nothing was made "hiding" or anything like it.

About the Sekiguchi ryu issue, yes, it is very different from Suio Ryu.

And yes, we know that Suio Ryu is a great tradition. Very complete!
We practice Suio Ryu a lot, and that is great!

I am not an expert on koryu, but I have been training with Kishikawa Sensei for some time and have know the masters from Japan who came to Brazil and in my opinion, there is not much problem in the mechanic of learning different tradition.
For example, Gosho Sensei, Sekiguchi Ryu's Shihan, is also Seitei Iaido Hachidan.
Seitei Iaido is very different of Sekiguchi Ryu. But Gosho Sensei teaches both to his students.
There are other examples, but I think it is not necessary to list then.

Rezende

6th May 2008, 03:20 AM

I don't know your name, since you didn't signed your name in your post. Probably we know each other.

I read your posts. And many think you said is right, were mistakes and lacks of communication we had in the past.

It is important to keep one think in mind: What Niten Institute is doing is something new. As far as I know, there aren't anyone else with a similar project to teach the koryu traditions so broadly.

It is not easy to make a dojo work.
Not in the way we want.
We want to be able to bring Sensei from Japan, to send our Sensei to Japan to practice constantly, to have a good website, to have events where everyone can meet and train together, we want to have how to accommodate and feed students who come from São Paulo to practice.
We want to be able to send our senior student to other countries to make seminar and spread the practice as far as we can.

It is not easy. And in the way to find out how to do that, it is inevitable to commit mistakes.

I think that Niten Institute critics, like some here in this forum and some in Brazil, have also a important role, because they show what is not okay, what is been misunderstand and also, what is wrong.

I don't know who was your Senpai. Today, the way things are now, nobody is isolated, without who to ask questions. There are the Gashuku, where everyone can come and practice with Sensei, and in fact are coming. Next week we will have another Gashuku.
And everyone knows how to send e-mail to Sensei with questions.
Today, each ryu is trained separated, as I told before.

As I said before, we are doing the best we can to make the practice more accessible, to lower the prices. But right now this is the way we are working.

About certificates, it is not true that nobody saw Sensei's certificates, etc...
Sensei have show in several ocasions.
I have seen, scanned, send by e-mail, copy, etc... Sensei's certificates many times.
I think it is very rude to ask a master to show a certificate. In the case of Kishikawa Sensei I think it is unnecessary, because Sensei is very clear about who he is connected to:
Want to know if Sensei really can teach Suio Ryu? Ask Katsuse Soke.
Want to know if Sensei really can teach Shindo Muso Ryu? Ask Kaminoda Sensei.
Want to know if Sensei really can teach Niten Ichi Ryu? Ask Gosho Sensei.

Niten Institute represent three traditions, Niten Ichi Ryu, Suio Ryu and Shindo Muso Ryu, under the masters above mentioned. I assure that we are doing this well and that these masters are satisfied with the way the work is been done.
In the past we made mistakes and learn from then. Perhaps in the future we will do more. That is the way things go everywhere.

If you have any question, feel free to talk to me.

Sidharta

Kenshin666

6th May 2008, 08:20 AM

Dear Sidharta,

I studied under Neje sempai and Daniel sempai. I didn't have the pleasure to meet you but heard about you alot (since you started your trainnings under Daniel sempai too - sorry if I'm wrong).

Since I left the Institute, I feel free to speak myself about my days at it and unfortunaly, I still see the Institute as a great business where quantity is better than quality (more students, more money). Why so many people disapproves the way Niten Institute that care of its "business"? Jealousy? I don't think so. I know many people who really wanted to start "kenjutsu" but can't pay...if the person goes to a regular Kendo Dojo, he/she is seen as a "traitor", someone that betrayed the trust of the Sempai, Sensei and everybody (someone that "splited on the plate", if you know what I mean).

The taxes and fees are the reasons why there aren't many senior students...Niten survives from the money of new and fresh students. When I asked about it the answer was: "The trainning starts soft, when you get more advanced it gets harder and people leave". In part is true, but in the other hand, you always have to buy a new weapon, a new bokuto, a new jo (there are several types of it...and the equipment are not sheap). You always have to buy something new! If you buy everything, you are a good student, if you don't buy, you are left aside.

It's not easy to maintain a Dojo, but we are able to do it without charge half the price Niten charge and with much less students. Again, what is the point of charge all the fees (the annual, the monthly, the bogu) if when a sensei like Kaminoda came to Brazil, all the students had to pay (again) to have a class with him? And all the sempais at the time told me Kaminoda was charging the money, just as he does back in Japan. I don't think it's right.

Things have changed? I'm sorry, I won't PAY to see it. I prefer to train kenDO, which people at Niten says is "simplier than kenjustu, only for championships, with no different kamaes", between other things. It surprises me when you talk about "kokenshiai"...when I was at the Institute, everybody talked so bad about all the kendo senseis and other dojos...it's hard to see a kenshi being welcomed at a Niten Dojo.

Anyway, thanks for your replys. Hope Niten doesn't start use the name KENDO, since the World Kendo Championships will be held in São Paulo next year and it will be well noticed in all kinds of media. Remember when the website said "who knows kenjutsu knows kendo, but who knows kendo doesn't know kenjutsu"? It's all about marketing and new students.

Rezende

6th May 2008, 11:54 PM

I thank you for your replies too. As I said, I think the critics helps to improve.

As for next year, I hope you good luck with the WKC.

Regards,
Sidharta

Saitama Steve

7th May 2008, 02:03 AM

One little point::)

I can assure you this is not the case. When HNIR guys and girls travel to Japan for keiko, he takes time off work and uses up his scheduled days off to teach us and then refuses any kind of recompense or fee for his time and effort!

I totally agree with Scott on this.

I'm still in Japan at the moment and I'm treated like family by my teachers in koryu. Some of my sempai have even kindly taken time off work to do extra classes with me just so my standards don't drop. As Scott said, any kind of payment is refused. So instead I pay with beer and Imo-jochu! :smoker:

bushikan

7th May 2008, 05:24 AM

I totally agree with Scott on this.

I'm still in Japan at the moment and I'm treated like family by my teachers in koryu. Some of my sempai have even kindly taken time off work to do extra classes with me just so my standards don't drop. As Scott said, any kind of payment is refused. So instead I pay with beer and Imo-jochu! :smoker:

Same here, except I use American Whiskey and Torrone :smiley:

JSchmidt

7th May 2008, 06:10 PM

Sidharta, are you employed by Instituto Niten?.

ScottUK

7th May 2008, 06:37 PM

Mr Rezende is one of the coordenadores at Instituto Niten - mentioned here (http://www.niten.org.br/seminario-niten-chile.html) - and listed as a sempai here (http://www.niten.org.br/santiago/sidharta.html). The coordenadores supervise the instructors, so they are Mr Kishikawa's top boys. In western terms, he is an area manager and oversees a number of branches.

More about the Instituto Niten setup here (http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410&L=iaido-l&P=5001).

Actually, the above link makes for very interesting reading but doesn't paint a very good picture for the organisation.

The question of the day is this:

In modern times, should koryu become a lucrative business?

Rezende

8th May 2008, 04:09 AM

I think the question is interesting, but "lucrative business" pass the wrong idea of what we are doing in Instituto Niten in my opinion.

I don't know how things are in the countries you guys live, but here this is the way we found to make our school work, to be able to sustain the organization doing things the way we want.
Unlike other schools, we don't have any kind of help from IKF, consulates, Brazilian or Japan governments, etc...
I.E: If we want to make a seminar, we have to pay the costs.

My opinion is that today, in a competitive and many times cruel world as the one we live, koryu should be broadly available to people.
In these years in Niten I have seen many people find in the practice of koryu the strength to sustain a good and health attitude towards situations that otherwise would shake their lives out of balance.
For me, today, this is the sword that brings life. It shouldn't be kept closed for a small group.

Here, in South America, that was the way we found to make this possible. It is something new and in the way to achieve our goals we tried a lot of different things.
The masters in Japan are very satisfied with the way things are going here. I think that is the most important.

More about the Instituto Niten setup here (http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410&L=iaido-l&P=5001).

Actually, the above link makes for very interesting reading but doesn't paint a very good picture for the organization.

About the link above, from a 4 years old Iaido-L post, I think I would just repeat myself if I were to comment that.
-Yes, Kishikawa Sensei has the credentials to teach Niten Ichi Ryu, Suio Ryu and Shindo Muso Ryu.
-As I said before, the traditions are taught separated.

I doubt that there is anything more to talk in this subject. If anyone else has any doubt and want to send directly to me, I'll be happy to answer.

Regards,
Sidharta

Fred27

8th May 2008, 04:49 AM

On a completely unrelated topic, lets review some of the older posts made by Rezende here on KW.

This is one of my favorite:

(Full topic here:
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4335&page=2 (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4335&page=2))

Official communicate from Niten Institute
The messages of this forum came to our attention today, September 24th.

With great pain, we see again the name of our masters from Japan, our Institute and our Sensei being exposed in the internet by people without any consideration who insist in sladering people who makes a serious work.

Wishing to clarify, not to argue, I write this lines to the readers who seek for the truth behing so many strange affirmations.

I am the only person authorized by Jorge Kishikawa Sensei to post any information regarding our Institute .

The message in my name, copied to this forun by Vinicius Souza, was posted before in a Brazillian forum without my authorization. One person sent one question to our Institute, to what I aswered, but in any minute that person told that it was to be posted to the public. As you can read bellow, I restat what I said in that message, but to publish one particular e-mail without the knowledge of the author is, at least, innapropriate. Please not that I am not talking this about Vinicius, who only copied was already published, but about the person who posted it in first place.

As I said in that message, Hyakutake Colin-Watkin, the person who in many foruns make affirmation about our sensei legitness (sp?), is, as explainned, one student from the ryu in Japan whose opinions does not represents our sokes opinions. He has, in many occasions, exposed our soke to the public, about the soke's health state and private affairs. Mr. Colin had, in May 2002, to formally apologize in front of the Sokes, other senseis from the ryu, Jorge Kishikawa Sensei and Wenzel Bohm because of the lies that he spreads in the internet foruns. His attitude left the sokes with deeply disappointed. He is continually exposing the ryu and sokes to the general public.

Last but not least, we restat that Jorge Kishikawa Sensei has the authorization of the 10th Soke do Niten Ichi Ryu, Imai Massayuke Soke, to teach and represent the ryu in Brazil and South America. Our Sensei is very proud to bring to our more than 800 student the teachings of Musashi Sensei, and see all the positive results that this teachings has in their lives.

Again, I invite everyone who wish to know our work to make a visit to our Institute.

Unfortunatly I don't have time and resources to aswer and follow all the foruns, so I ask to who has any additional question, to send throught the contact form in our website. I am going to post this message with some minor modifications in other threads and foruns where this subject rised.
My apologies for the many errors in the english language.

Thanks for your time
Sidharta Rezende
Last edited by Sidharta; 25-09-2004 at 12:46 AM.

Isn't nostalgia wonderful? I'm getting all misty!

Fred27

8th May 2008, 04:57 AM

Oh, I almost forgot to share this too:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14470 (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14470)

Make a note that Rezendes (second) account (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/member.php?u=11619) was banned.

Actually this is his third time he's returned to KW.

Neil Gendzwill

8th May 2008, 06:01 AM

If he's been banned before, we'll maintain that ban.

Legionario

8th May 2008, 07:03 AM

I doubt that there is anything more to talk in this subject.
:D :D :D :D

ScottUK

8th May 2008, 04:53 PM

I don't know how things are in the countries you guys live, but here this is the way we found to make our school work, to be able to sustain the organization doing things the way we want.
Unlike other schools, we don't have any kind of help from IKF, consulates, Brazilian or Japan governments, etc...
I.E: If we want to make a seminar, we have to pay the costs.Well, what a coincidence - so do we. We are fortunate to have Iwami-soke and some of his senior deshi here in the UK in July and to bring them here, keep them fed, watered, warm and entertained for a week will cost £6K upwards. Do we get funding for this? Not a chance.
My opinion is that today, in a competitive and many times cruel world as the one we live, koryu should be broadly available to people.Available? Yes. Taught en-masse? No.
In these years in Niten I have seen many people find in the practice of koryu the strength to sustain a good and health attitude towards situations that otherwise would shake their lives out of balance.Watercolour painting also does this. So does eating more fruit.

Seriously, any study of MA will achieve a healthy development of the Self - ask the kendo bods on here - it doesn't need koryu for that.
For me, today, this is the sword that brings life. It shouldn't be kept closed for a small group.Yes it should. I struggle to transfer the finer details of our kenjutsu to 10 guys. How the hell can it be done to a huge group in a standard lesson format?
Here, in South America, that was the way we found to make this possible. It is something new and in the way to achieve our goals we tried a lot of different things. Its a shame you're banned - I'd have liked to hear what these different things were. Feel free to email me through the link in my sig.
-Yes, Kishikawa Sensei has the credentials to teach Niten Ichi Ryu, Suio Ryu and Shindo Muso Ryu.Well, I know where the NIR certification comes from - and I am looking into the SR and SMR menkyo. Back soon.