Hasuji

[JCM]

Since I have been focusing on using the "cutting edge" of the shinai I have started to find that if used properly and your hands are holding the shinai corectly is nearly impossible for the shinai to slip away after hitting the target, is also a lot easier to manipulate your opponents shinai once you treat the shinai as having two sides and a cutting edge.

I get the feeling that even when cutting sayu men the shinai 'sticks' to the target and is more likely to make a nice popping sound on the men. This might be one of those obvious things we all now but that some of us tend to forget while working on everything else, but I have rediscovered it and am finding it very effective specially on kaeshi men tecniques.

This has also triggered some thoughts about the 'stick fighting' opinion some people have, I am not saying anybody is wrong but I find the more I think about the shinai as a sword, the more sense I see in it (yes, some of you will think is a blinding falsh of the obvious), in terms of making effective cuts.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Paburo]

this very last weekend, in a kendo seminar we did a lot of the oji and kihon waza with the bokuto.
sensei said practicing like this is a good way to know if your hasuji is correct. he also said that when we practice with shinai we often forget the importance of hasuji AND proper grip of the sword. i think all of this is very accurate and cool :D so i took note for future reference and practice.

btw, why didnt you come?! the seminar was FREE... and the sayonara party, was... well, crazy hehe :D

cheers!

[JCM]

Yes, I was working on a Sensei's advice too.

What competition was this?

I can't go anywhere with my mad job schedule. Also have two competitions coming up so I have to save up :)

[Chaby]

I had the opportunity to try owari (http://www.e-bogu.com/photos/HAY-KEN-SHI-OWARI-37-2T.jpg) shinai.
You have a better "feel",with that kind of shinai.
Off course that was just for comparisons purpose only.

[Shazzanzzz]

grip is SO important it's not even funny. I'm just so much ready to respond and react to things when my grip is correct. Sometimes I find myself not being able to do something I usually am able to do... sometimes it goes back to the grip, which is one of the many things. Sometimes it's body position, balance etc.

Sometimes I just feel uncomfortable in chudan and don't know why. And a lot of times it goes back to hasuji. Is that just me? or other people go through the same things at times?

[JCM]

grip is SO important it's not even funny. I'm just so much ready to respond and react to things when my grip is correct. Sometimes I find myself not being able to do something I usually am able to do... sometimes it goes back to the grip, which is one of the many things. Sometimes it's body position, balance etc.

Sometimes I just feel uncomfortable in chudan and don't know why. And a lot of times it goes back to hasuji. Is that just me? or other people go through the same things at times?

When my grip is bad or the shinai has rotated a bit I get that feeling too, I notice it more so since I have started ti focus in that

[DCPan]

LOL, this is actually a pet peeve of mine.

If you pick up an iaito and ask random folks to do kirikaeshi, you'd be surprised at how it doesn't "whoosh" for so many people. Ditto on the doh.

You can see, even in instruction videos, people swinging with incorrect blade angle, but turn it to the "correct" angle right before impact.

That said, the bigger question is, does the blade NEED to maintain the cutting plane from the very beginning of the downward stroke?

At least in what I saw of some of Obata's Shinkendo/Toyama-Ryu videos, it seems like he adjusts his hand at the top of the swing, then the cutting plane is maintained all the way down. Conversely, you could say that's "telegraphing".

On the other end of the spectrum, if you look at styles like Kashima Shin-Ryu where there is a lot of spiral or TSKSR where you have maki uchi, it's not like the blade maintains a constant cutting plane as you try to cut anyway.

In short, what I'm getting at is, how much hasuji do you need? How far before impact do you need to maintain the cutting plane so the blade doesn't roll upon impact?

You look at folks that do tameshigiri, and they tend to step first, then cut so you have a solid foundation to power the cut through. However, if you read that article on KW Magazine, the soke of Suio-Ryu says they prefer landing the cut before the step lands as you never know if you might slip.

I guess it's all about finding that balance huh? (Pun intended) :D

[Halcyon]

That said, the bigger question is, does the blade NEED to maintain the cutting plane from the very beginning of the downward stroke?
I think that depends on the target. If you're cutting vertically, then yes, cutting plane is maintained all the way down. If you're striking sayumen, the hasuji follows an arc outward (at the beginning of the forward swing) and then back inward (as it approaches the target). If you exaggerate the hasuji outward at the beginning of the swing, it actually makes for better hasuji at point of impact.

Also, on a diagonal cut, you have to adjust your hasuji depending on the material you're cutting, e.g. tatami omote vs. bamboo.

[DCPan]

Also, on a diagonal cut, you have to adjust your hasuji depending on the material you're cutting, e.g. tatami omote vs. bamboo.

Can you say a little on this?

[Halcyon]

Can you say a little on this?
Oops. What I meant to say was that you have to adjust your tenouchi depending on the material. With harder material like bamboo, have to apply tenouchi a little earlier, otherwise your hasuji will go astray in the middle of the cut.

[JCM]

I guess it's all about finding that balance huh? (Pun intended) :D

The advice from Hirakawa Sensei (Hachi-Dan) was as follows:


Upswing
Adjust hasuji at the top of the upswing
Cut


Of course all done in one motion (no stops), I have tried this and it does work (for me).

I was giving it some thought, why do you think you'll telegraph your target?

[Chris R]

The advice from Hirakawa Sensei (Hachi-Dan) was as follows:


Upswing
Adjust hasuji at the top of the upswing
Cut


Of course all done in one motion (no stops), I have tried this and it does work (for me).

I was giving it some thought, why do you think you'll telegraph your target?


I had a terrible time with Hasuji for a long time and my biggest problem was with my grip at tsuba-moto. I could never break myself from having a strong tight grip there at all times.

IMO this might be telegraping a little, because with such a tight grip at tsuba-moto on your upswing you may lose a little bit of your flexability to react.

My sensei told me to have a light grip at tsuba-moto so that you can guide your shinai and you'll be able to react to different situations better.

So for me, I have a light grip at tsuba-moto on the upswing and kinda snap my wrist and grip tighter as I make the cut and this corrected my problem to a big degree.

[Paburo]

Yes, I was working on a Sensei's advice too.

What competition was this?

I can't go anywhere with my mad job schedule. Also have two competitions coming up so I have to save up :)

not a competition. just seminar. stay tuned to the calendar for more events in spain... (plenty coming up!): http://foro.kenwakai.org/viewtopic.php?t=1413

hasuji is not only important for practice but for shiai. don't ever think that the shimpan are too busy looking at other things not to look closely if your grip is correct and if you're cutting with good hasuji.

i once had a shimpan whisper to me in shiai: "listen paburo, you've scored a couple ippon so far, but we will not raise any flag unless you hit properly with hasuji" lol. turns out i didnt notice i was fighting with my (normal round grip) shinai rotated 45º, thus, i made all the cuts with the side of my sword... not with the edge! now THAT was embarrassing.... lol. a lesson for life. now in shiai, whilst in sonkyo before hajime i always double check for the tsuru-up correct-grip before starting the match (if i'm not using a oval, which i use mostly lately!) :D :D

[hl1978]

This is the very reason I use an oval shinai. I started iaido and kendo at the same time so a round grip shinai just never felt right. Its way easier to maintain the proper angle.

I guess in some people it could mask improper form.

[DCPan]

I was giving it some thought, why do you think you'll telegraph your target?

Because when you change your hasuji at the top, one could see the plane you're about to cut, assuming you maintain that cutting plane.

[JCM]

Because when you change your hasuji at the top, one could see the plane you're about to cut, assuming you maintain that cutting plane.

I see, good point.

I think there might be less telegraphing if the technique is small, I will try it out

Chris, I am having the oppostie problem now, I was trying to focus on loosening my right hand and using the left as the engine, now some of my men cuts are almost like Katate cuts from Jodan. My right hand keeps leaving the shinai right after the contact. I'm trying to work on reversing it

[bobdonny]

Chris, I am having the oppostie problem now, I was trying to focus on loosening my right hand and using the left as the engine, now some of my men cuts are almost like Katate cuts from Jodan. My right hand keeps leaving the shinai right after the contact. I'm trying to work on reversing it

I wouldnt work on changing that, it sounds fine? just dont let go of the shinai ;)

[JCM]

I wouldnt work on changing that, it sounds fine? just dont let go of the shinai ;)

Fair enugh, I'll work on that. I do let go of the shinai sometimes

[MAZ77]

Fair enugh, I'll work on that. I do let go of the shinai sometimes


I would say that when people 'emphasize' left hand, its to more 'extend' with the left arm, hand wrist, fingers. But essentially, tenouchi comes from both hands equally or some variation thereof that works for you.

[Trent]

Has anyone used an oval handled shinai? If so, how did you find your grip differed, and did it improve or make it harder to do keiko?

Be interested to see what you have to say. Since a katana is an oval handle, I would prefer to use an oval shinai (for an authentic feel) with a weight that feels like it is evenly dispersed across the blade, rather than right at the handle. Going by what many people have said about their favourite types of shinais, I have a rather unique desire.

[bobdonny]

Has anyone used an oval handled shinai? If so, how did you find your grip differed, and did it improve or make it harder to do keiko?

Be interested to see what you have to say. Since a katana is an oval handle, I would prefer to use an oval shinai (for an authentic feel) with a weight that feels like it is evenly dispersed across the blade, rather than right at the handle. Going by what many people have said about their favourite types of shinais, I have a rather unique desire.

It feels great and really helps, but personally its a lot more difficult to rotate and swap staves for maintenance hence it gets very expensive.

[Rob W.]

It feels great and really helps, but personally its a lot more difficult to rotate and swap staves for maintenance hence it gets very expensive.

2nd that opinion.

[ShinKenshi]

Agreed. I basically use mine just for uchikomi geiko and basic exercises (kirikaeshi, kihon waza, etc) and switch to a regular round tsuka shinai for jigeiko.

The reason I use my oval shinai in the beginning of practice is to help me make sure I'm applying tenouchi correctly and that I'm cutting at the proper angle. I find that using my oval shinai for the majority of practice and then switching to a regular shinai for jigeiko helps me cut with the correct angle without having to think about it.

[Peter West]

Because when you change your hasuji at the top, one could see the plane you're about to cut, assuming you maintain that cutting plane.

It doesn't quite work that way. Do you do iaido too? If so consider furikaburi.
The issue is perhaps exactly what hasuji means. Hasuji is the line from the Mune through the blade to the ha, and so by extension it is the line of the direction that the sword naturally cuts most effectively and so is the plane that the sword is swung through when cutting. At all times (except at the end of a cut through the target) the hasuji should be directed at the enemy. Even in the saya the hasuji is directed at the enemy, in Jodan, in kaburi, during oji waza like kaeshi, sutiage, always the hasuji is directed at the enemy.

[DCPan]

It doesn't quite work that way. Do you do iaido too? If so consider furikaburi.
The issue is perhaps exactly what hasuji means. Hasuji is the line from the Mune through the blade to the ha, and so by extension it is the line of the direction that the sword naturally cuts most effectively and so is the plane that the sword is swung through when cutting. At all times (except at the end of a cut through the target) the hasuji should be directed at the enemy. Even in the saya the hasuji is directed at the enemy, in Jodan, in kaburi, during oji waza like kaeshi, sutiage, always the hasuji is directed at the enemy.

Yes, I did iaido for a while.

Personally, I think we’re talking apples and oranges here. Whether the Hasuji is being directed at the enemy or not is a different issue from whether or not it is maintaining the same cutting plane.

The paradigm is simple.

Just look at kiri-kaeshi. After the shomen tai-atari, your first cut is to hidari-men (opponent's left).

So, during furi-kaburi, the sword's hasuji is still straight up and down ideally.

But since you end up with hidari men, the Hasuji has to become 45 degrees at some point.

So, when does the blade go from being straight up and down to being 45 degrees? Beginning, middle, or end…there’s no escaping that. You have to do it sometime.

So, if you line up the Hasuji to the Hidari-Men at the peak of your Furi-Kaburi, the edge naturally has to be turned out and to your right (opponent’s left). And no, I do not consider this as Hasuji not being directed at the enemy because the extension of the edge’s cutting plane is toward the enemy.

If at the peak of your furi-kaburi, when your blade edge still faces the sky, your edge is turned in toward your center-line like how you would finish your hidari-men, then you're actually rolling the blade as you swing down because your Hasuji doesn't match your actual blade path.

[Halcyon]

So, when does the blade go from being straight up and down to being 45 degrees? Beginning, middle, or end…there’s no escaping that. You have to do it sometime.
Beginning.

[Peter West]

Yes, I did iaido for a while.

Personally, I think we’re talking apples and oranges here. Whether the Hasuji is being directed at the enemy or not is a different issue from whether or not it is maintaining the same cutting plane.

The paradigm is simple.

Just look at kiri-kaeshi. After the shomen tai-atari, your first cut is to hidari-men (opponent's left).

So, during furi-kaburi, the sword's hasuji is still straight up and down ideally.

But since you end up with hidari men, the Hasuji has to become 45 degrees at some point.

So, when does the blade go from being straight up and down to being 45 degrees? Beginning, middle, or end…there’s no escaping that. You have to do it sometime.

So, if you line up the Hasuji to the Hidari-Men at the peak of your Furi-Kaburi, the edge naturally has to be turned out and to your right (opponent’s left). And no, I do not consider this as Hasuji not being directed at the enemy because the extension of the edge’s cutting plane is toward the enemy.

If at the peak of your furi-kaburi, when your blade edge still faces the sky, your edge is turned in toward your center-line like how you would finish your hidari-men, then you're actually rolling the blade as you swing down because your Hasuji doesn't match your actual blade path.

I have not done kirikaeshi for a long time, but if you will accept Sogiri as an equivalent, and with each cut wider and flatter, a more extreme equivalent, then in iaido:
the left hand moves only up and down the centre, agreed? if so:
the right hand moves in a slight curve to whichever side you're cutting, your right for hidari men, your left for migi men, agreed? If so:
the movment of the right hand naturally and without your doing anything to effect it, causes the hasuji to subtly turn throughout the movement so that at the moment before shibori it travels straight towards the target.

Try do-kirikaeshi in slow motion (instead of men-kirikaeshi), you'll see how it works.
Because the movement is natural, the hasuji is always on A target, but in fast transition. It is almost impossible to read the intended target from the hasuji until it is too late.

[bobdonny]

try thinking about the saya men cut as 2 moves, first to line up the cut, second to strike. When lining up the hasuji is not pointing at you opponent. but when cutting it is.

I wouldnt think too much about a certain point or certain angle, just let it happen naturally, and if still in doubt ask you sensei to watch you.

[DCPan]

Because the movement is natural, the hasuji is always on A target, but in fast transition. It is almost impossible to read the intended target from the hasuji until it is too late.

LOL, we've now come full circle :D

Part of the question that I posed in post #7 was how long your Hasuji need to be lined up on your final target in order to not roll the blade when you actually cut something.

By your description, you obviously don't think it is necessary to line up the Hasuji to the final target in the beginning of the downswing, it just has to line up to a target of some sort.

The funny thing is, during the period when I was still active in iaido, I do my doh-uchi the way you've described sou-giri. More than half the time, I get told my hasuji for doh is too vertical in kendo... :D Oh well! :D Just providing some background in why I line up my Hasuji earlier now :D