What came first ? Egg or chicken ?

[jmaia]

Hi again,

Since I'm in the process of changing jobs, and am not really busy at the moment, let me take this opportunity to ask you a few more questions. I have no idea when I will have the chance again, after I start my new job...

I have noticed, from footage of some koryu kata (viva youtube), that ran-ai is made up of several bits of other kata. If this is so, I'd like to ask you what should we study first ? Ran-ai, or the other kata ?

Theoretically from what you have told me in another thread, people usually study seitei before koryu, and since there is ran-ain in seitei, one might feel that ran-ai should be studied first.

However, shouldn't it be "better" to study the other kata first so that the individual movements in ran-ai can be better "polished" ? After all if one only practices koryu, this is the normal order of things, right ? And it's the way it happens with kihon: first polish the basic movements and then incorporate them into the kata.

I'm not saying I think one thing is better than the other, after all my knowledge of jodo is too little for me even to form an opinion. But since you guys seem to like a good discussion, since I have got some free time (until I start my new job) and since I am curious... :cheerful:

[Fred27]

Not sure that every dojo requires that you train all the seitei kata before. I have heard, just in passing, that it is a bit more rigid in Japan but I got nothing more solid than just that passing statement.

When it comes to ran-ai..Yes the ran-ai is comprised of "bits" as you say from other kata. Most of the pure technical content is from the Chudan-series and it also holds some imports from the Kage-series. *correction* I should say SEEMS to come mostly from chudan, rather than kage, but truth be told they both hold same types of manouvers..Chudan uses them a bit more than in kage. The speed, as we teach it, is a few steps above the traditional speed of chudan-series and is meant to really allow a user to "go nuts".

As for how Seitei guys balance the whole issue of when to teach ran-ai I think Andy can answer that better than me.


Hi again,

Since I'm in the process of changing jobs, and am not really busy at the moment, let me take this opportunity to ask you a few more questions. I have no idea when I will have the chance again, after I start my new job...

I have noticed, from footage of some koryu kata (viva youtube), that ran-ai is made up of several bits of other kata. If this is so, I'd like to ask you what should we study first ? Ran-ai, or the other kata ?

Theoretically from what you have told me in another thread, people usually study seitei before koryu, and since there is ran-ain in seitei, one might feel that ran-ai should be studied first.

However, shouldn't it be "better" to study the other kata first so that the individual movements in ran-ai can be better "polished" ? After all if one only practices koryu, this is the normal order of things, right ? And it's the way it happens with kihon: first polish the basic movements and then incorporate them into the kata.

I'm not saying I think one thing is better than the other, after all my knowledge of jodo is too little for me even to form an opinion. But since you guys seem to like a good discussion, since I have got some free time (until I start my new job) and since I am curious... :cheerful:

[Fred27]

Oh, just a trivia.

Ran-ai is actually a newer kata. It was developed in the bakumatsu-period (1853-1867).

[Kim Taylor]

Hmm, third shot at writing this so that it makes sense.

National grading rules start at 6dan in Japan and in Canada. Below that the gradings are local and some variation happens.

At the moment we are using the Tokyo rules for gradings which means that from one to 5dan the requirements are as follows

1dan, kata 2-6
2dan, kata 3-7
3dan, kata 4-8
4dan, kata 5-9
5dan, kata 8-12

Or something like that... can't find it right now, but as you can see there is no choice by the candidate or the judges so you will be tested on later kata later in your career.

This means that by the time you need number 12, Ranai, for a grading, you have been doing seitei jo for (in Canada) at least 12 years

In other words, there is no great pressure to teach beginners the later, more complex kata, and Ranai can be left until students have quite a bit of experience in the other kata.

Kim Taylor

[Andy_Watson]

Yes it does seem a bit of a shame to build students up to Ran Ai only for them then to have to go back and learn more elementary kata. I have a lot of respect for the rationale of having various teaching sets emphasising different apects of Jodo training (Omote for technique, Chudan for continuity, Kage for contrast etc) and even as a dedicated Seitei trainee I have to admit that that system is not so obviously structured into the Seitei sequence. While a very experienced teacher will be able to inject that understanding into their students' Seitei practice, not all dojos are lucky to have such teachers.

I therefore concur with Kim and feel that we should start to introduce Koryu before attempting to embed a firm understanding of all the Seiteigata in a student.

[Fred27]

I therefore concur with Kim and feel that we should start to introduce Koryu before attempting to embed a firm understanding of all the Seiteigata in a student.

All in favour say "aye"?
*bangs his gavel*
Motion is carried!

:D

[Fred27]

1dan, kata 2-6
2dan, kata 3-7
3dan, kata 4-8
4dan, kata 5-9
5dan, kata 8-12


Since this is seitei, is there an injection of koryu kata when grading like I think I've observed with seitei iaido?

Like

"3dan, kata 4-8 + koryu kata: ichi rei and hoso michi"
(and so on?)

[deepvisual]

in strict evolutionary terms, the egg was around millions of years before the first chicken.

ok?

[jmaia]

in strict evolutionary terms, the egg was around millions of years before the first chicken.

ok?

It was kind of a metaphor but... ok ! :)

[Andy_Watson]

Since this is seitei, is there an injection of koryu kata when grading like I think I've observed with seitei iaido?

Like

"3dan, kata 4-8 + koryu kata: ichi rei and hoso michi"
(and so on?)

Fred

In the BKA we have now introduced:

5th dan: 8&9 or two koryu + 10,11,12

This was encouraged from a visit by Namitome Sensei who also brought up the concept of deciding the shitei waza on the day (as they do in iaido). It caused a bit of huffing and puffing but I thought it was a fair thing (he was aiming this at 4th dans and above).

At 6th dan we have 3 koryu + 3 seitei.

As most iaido grading introduce 1 koryu at 4th dan I would also like to introduce this into jodo (1 optional koryu instead of Kasumi) but this may take a little bit of time to implement.

[Kim Taylor]

When I did my 4dan grading we were using the Fukuoka regional rules and so I had to do one koryu and 4 seitei (I think, might have been 2 koryu).

Then we switched to the Tokyo regional rules and those don't call for koryu until 6dan, the first national grade so I did 5 seitei for my godan last year.

Nothing stopping any national body from introducing extra requirements to what is used in Japan Andy. In fact the FIK guidelines don't mention iaido or jodo kata at all in the last thing I saw.

I'd assume from Japanese practice that 1-5dan requirements are pretty variable so wouldn't expect much more of a standard requirement than "5 kata" in any guidelines. National standards (6dan and up) might be a bit more stringent.

If I remember I'll talk with Namitome sensei about this next month when he's here for the seminar. http://seidokai.ca/iai.seminar.html for anyone who'd like to come.

Kim Taylor

[Andy_Watson]

Kim

Oh stop rubbing my nose in it! Alright, you've got Namitome Sensei coming! Alright, I'm jealous - GET OVER IT WILLYA!!!

:)

Anyway glad to know that we can decide things the way we want. I think we have to date always consulted the senior sensei on the day for the shitei waza and I like the idea of introducing koryu at the same rate as iaido do.

Would be very interested to hear Namitome Sensei's take on things.

Have a great seminar, lucky get!

[Fred27]

When I did my 4dan grading we were using the Fukuoka regional rules and so I had to do one koryu and 4 seitei (I think, might have been 2 koryu).

Then we switched to the Tokyo regional rules and those don't call for koryu until 6dan, the first national grade so I did 5 seitei for my godan last year.

Nothing stopping any national body from introducing extra requirements to what is used in Japan Andy. In fact the FIK guidelines don't mention iaido or jodo kata at all in the last thing I saw.

I'd assume from Japanese practice that 1-5dan requirements are pretty variable so wouldn't expect much more of a standard requirement than "5 kata" in any guidelines. National standards (6dan and up) might be a bit more stringent.

If I remember I'll talk with Namitome sensei about this next month when he's here for the seminar. http://seidokai.ca/iai.seminar.html for anyone who'd like to come.

Kim Taylor

oooh! Namitone Sensei? If you will, can you give him my thanks for taking part in that Nihon Kobudo episode featuring Shinto Muso Ryu? It was the first time I saw Fukuoka Jodo in action...And Otofuji Sensei for that matter. :). I'd like to tell him myself someday, but I'll most likely not meet him since I'm not part of Fukuoka Jo.



Oh stop rubbing my nose in it! Alright, you've got Namitome Sensei coming! Alright, I'm jealous - GET OVER IT WILLYA!!!

:)

Poor Andy! You could always register for the EJF Spain Gasshuku...Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei is coming :D

[Kim Taylor]

Andy, why not just come on over? Lots cheaper to fly to Canada than to Japan, (looks like around $600 / GBP300) and it's waaaay cheaper to stay here.

We also tend to have our stated criteria, and then, especially at the higher grades, have the understanding that things can change on the day. Keeps everyone honest.

Fred the same invite goes to you, and you could also meet Otofuji sensei's daughter who is coming over for the first time this year. She and Eto sensei along with Hatakenaka sensei for iaido make up half of the delegation. This is the first year we've had an even split between men and women instructors.

So ladies, come on out and help even up the gender balance on the floor!

Kim Taylor

[Fred27]

Fred the same invite goes to you, and you could also meet Otofuji sensei's daughter who is coming over for the first time this year. She and Eto sensei along with Hatakenaka sensei for iaido make up half of the delegation. This is the first year we've had an even split between men and women instructors.


Sweet! That would be great fun, thanks! I'd love to hear her stories about her father and the SMR-Jo tradition in Fukuoka.
I'm 100% certain I cant make it though. At least not this year.

[Andy_Watson]

Alas I will be in Villingen for Ishido Sensei's seminar (the same one that Namitome Sensei came to last year funnily enough)....


.....



.....


just a minute! You thieved him from us Kim!!!

I am dispatching ninjers for Canadia as we speak.

[willszenith]

maple leaf shuriken!!!!!!

[Kim Taylor]

Have no fear Andy, I'm sure he will be back your way soon.

Have fun on your seminar.

Kim.