Meditation

[MSPaintClock]

How exactly do I do it? What am I looking for to do when I'm doing, and I'm just concentrating on my breathes, or am I thinking about what I need to work on? What exactly am I trying to do here, what am I doing with meditation?

[Theodore]

How exactly do I do it? What am I looking for to do when I'm doing, and I'm just concentrating on my breathes, or am I thinking about what I need to work on? What exactly am I trying to do here, what am I doing with meditation?

I was told by Jeff Marsten Sensei to think about what you want to work on at the beginning of class and review how you did on that at the end of class.

[Badger]

I like to breathe in whilst Mokuso is being called, and hold till the clap. As I hold I let my body relax and I clear my mind.
Works for me, I suppose you find something that will gear you up and down for practise.

[Oroshi]

Mokusō: 黙想

黙: Silence
想: Thought
Definition: silent contemplation.

Extremely basic, of course, but it's a reference point that can be missed if you don't speak Japanese.

[JasonDC]

Good question, and I think the right answer depends on your temperment and training.

For me, I am not concerned about beautiful kendo or perfect techniques, so I try not to think about past mistakes, possible scenarios, or ideal movements. Basically, I use the time to pull energy into myself, focusing my mind and strengthening my resolve to fight. At the end, my vision is sharper and my mind is crisp. I feel like I could fight anyone if I had to, but this feeling lessens as the training sessions progresses. That's another challenge - to keep focused throughout training.

Jason

[Neil Gendzwill]

The advice I've always received is to think of nothing. Not work, not school, not problems, not even kendo, just nothing. I find that really tough, so I just concentrate on the breathing.

[Hanmi]

Perhaps this might help?

http://www.clevelandkendo.com/about/mokuso.html


Neil

[MAZ77]

The advice I've always received is to think of nothing. Not work, not school, not problems, not even kendo, just nothing. I find that really tough, so I just concentrate on the breathing.


I actually thought about nothing once...and i fell asleep. It was a nice nap for a few minutes. But it was the most relaxing mokuso i ever did. I cant do it now, because my body fights off any tactics i use to try to make it sleep...isomnia sucks....

[Kenzan]

I cant do it now, because my body fights off any tactics i use to try to make it sleep...isomnia sucks....

Welcome to Fatherhood.
:D

[MAZ77]

Welcome to Fatherhood.
:D

ACtually, i sleep better now.....go figure. I just tap the missus and go about my business of sleeping....im waiting for the moment of when i tap her and then she belts me across the face...

[Neil Gendzwill]

I just tap the missus and go about my business of sleeping....Mine always wants a cuddle afterwards...

[Kenzan]

Mine always wants a cuddle afterwards...

LOL
NIIIICE.
:D

[Maku-san]

Neil, you ol' sonofagun, you! *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* :laugh:

Hanmi: thanks for that GREAT link! :wink:

BTW: this is the exact principle that Oprah's current book-fest is all about. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, it's all in the book "A New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle. He teaches "being present NOW" and "empty-mindedness". I read through it once and am itching to go through it again. I recommend it heartily!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Thank you, I'm here all week. Press this button (http://www.instantrimshot.com/) for the full effect.

[Ookami7]

For me, I just focus on clearing my mind and preparing for Kendo and afterwards clearing my mind and entering back into normal daily routine. I try to put away all outside distractions ie job, life, etc etc. Same w/ Iaido and what really helps is that I have to cross a short walking bridge to get to the dojo and w/ the running water sound, it helps to put me in the right frame of mind!

[Alicia]

I have been told at a seminar by Inoue Sensei (8th dan) that 'nothing' is too hard for us mere mortals to do, (you have to become a legend like him to achieve that), so he suggested thinking about the feeling of the love that your parents must have for you... this is a good frame of mind to be in.

I guess it wouldn't work for everyone, but if your brain is whizzing around like a bee in a bonnet, try this maybe, it sounds a little cheesy I guess, but it helps to focus your mind on something that isn't a distinct thought.

[Moose]

I must be a natural at meditation... As my old housemaster always used to tell me that I'd got "absolutely nothing going on inside my head". :wink:

[whosesoever]

Meditation is a big part of my religious practice. Not sure if meditation is different in a martial context. But when I meditate, I breath normally. I do not force my breath to be longer or shorter than it is. I clear my mind of all thoughts; of work, of school, of what I am going to do after practice, of what I am going to do during practice. If this practice is too difficult, you can try focusing on the breath; breathing in, you recognize that you are breathing in, breathing out, you recognize that you are breathing out. And if this is also difficult, you can try loving kindness meditation, that is the reflection of the people you love like your parents, your wife, your children, your friends, etc... You wish them to be safe, and well. Once you get good with loving kindness meditation, you can start thinking of people that you do not know, and wishes them to be well also. Slowly, you start wishing your enemy well. I find this to be an important part of refining the spirit; so that you are unmoved by anger, unmoved like a mountain.
Meditation is not only applicable to prepare to mind for sincere practice, but it is also applicable in our daily life. When we practice in the dojo, our mind is the practice, and not about school or work; when we are with our family, our mind is with our family; when we are at work, our mind is at work. Through that we can do what we do well.

[deepvisual]

from the article on mokuso:


Additionally, practice Mokuso for at least sixty minutes daily, preferably at sunrise and before bed. Little by little, as a result of perseverance, Kendoka can learn to live in a constant moving meditation.

free your mind and the rest will follow.

[Damian.Corley]

I'm really pleased this thread came up! I was going to make one sooner or later if someone did not.

I have just started kendo and have just started getting used to do Mokuso, however I have started going to morning meditation classes too. I find doing meditation is particularly difficult but after a few minutes it does work, I find I can feel very positive and happy after meditation and it stays for a few days.

I still still find the breathing a difficult aspect to control.

[deepvisual]

I think its fair to say, that without technique you'll never master kendo, but the same goes for mokuso.
technique will only get you so far. You'll only learn to let go by practising, it wont just happen.

sadly this gets overlooked by all the dojos I've visited. I'd recommend either Zen or Tibetan Buddhism as a good place to start as there is a lot more to meditation than breath control.

[Hyarion]

Zen Buddhism.

Meditation, Zazen, is practised to cultivate concentration and mindfulness. Concentration refers to the ability to stay focused on a single thing, and not let the mind wander from thought to thought, like a monkey jumping from branch to branch. It is practised by counting your breaths. Mindfulness is being aware of your thoughts in an objective, non-judgemental way, it is simply saying "ah, here comes a thought... oh, there it goes, oh, here comes another one." This practice fosters detachment from our thoughts and feelings. For example, when someone insults you, you can feel anger or embarrassment rising within yourself, and through detachment you no longer cling to it and follow through with it (react to it, beat someone up) but simply say "oh, there goes that anger again, lets just let it pass"

I'm not sure how much mokuso has to do with zazen, and I don't think all of this is really implied in kendo... but I think in mokuso you should just try to empty your mind, concentrate on your breathing, count your breaths, and come back to counting your breaths whenever you lose concentration. I personally don't have a problem with concentration in kendo... I mean, whenever I'm I do jikeiko I don't recall ever having thought about my shopping list or something like that. Perhaps concentration is beyond this, and can be applied to seeing movements and openings. I don't know.

In my opinion mokuso should be for at least 10 minutes (or something like that), or there should be optional 50 minute zazen before class. Some places I have been to do mokuso for 5 seconds.

[deepvisual]

I brought up in another thread, the notion that zen underpins the whole of modern japanese culture, whereas zen is pretty much absent in the west.
So while Zazen isn't overtly part of Kendo in Japan, it lies at the very core of Budo. I personally feel that it would be of great benefit to to western kendo to address the cultural gap between japan and the west and the fact that Zazen is often overlooked by the western dojos.

[pgsmith]

I brought up in another thread, the notion that zen underpins the whole of modern japanese culture, whereas zen is pretty much absent in the west.
So while Zazen isn't overtly part of Kendo in Japan, it lies at the very core of Budo. I personally feel that it would be of great benefit to to western kendo to address the cultural gap between japan and the west and the fact that Zazen is often overlooked by the western dojos.
It has been my experience that this is incorrect. There are very few ryuha in Japan that associate their teachings with buddhism of any kind. The reason that people tend to get confused on this issue is that many of the practical techniques within the budo have a superficial resemblance to zen. The resemblance is mostly superficial however.

It has been my experience that mokuso is not meant to either substitute for, nor embody, the practice of zazen. I have been taught that mokuso is to clear the mind of the outside world and focus it on the struggle of training. The unmindfulness of mushin has no resemblance to the unmindfulness of zazen. The first is preparation for action, the second is totally passive in nature.

Just my opinions and experiences.

[turboyoshi]

Zen Buddhism.


As pgsmith points out, the idea that zen is intricately tied to martial practice seems to be incorrect. This idea was further perpetuated by Herrigels's book on zen as he relates it to archery but Herrigel seems to have applied a bit of literary license to his archery sensei's teachings. There is plenty of reason to not take Herrigel too seriously, and consequently, those who based later works on his ideas.

Zen and buddhism are separate philosophies, btw. Zen is a philosophy for living, similar to taoism, stoicism, etc. Buddhism is a religion, dealing with the concepts fo the soul and afterlife and morality. These philosophies complement each other but they should not be confused as belonging to each other. They deal with separate aspects of humanistic thought.

sean

[Kenzan]

Zen and buddhism are separate philosophies, btw. Zen is a philosophy for living, similar to taoism, stoicism, etc. Buddhism is a religion, dealing with the concepts fo the soul and afterlife and morality. These philosophies complement each other but they should not be confused as belonging to each other. They deal with separate aspects of humanistic thought.

sean

There might be a few Zen Buddhists out there who disagree with you, considering that Zen is a sect of Mahayana Buddhism.
Also, I'm not quite certain that I've never read anything in Buddhist texts which (at least among Mahayana) which mentions a soul or an afterlife, unless it is in metaphorical sense or a parable.

Perhaps you are confused with Hinayana?

[kurisu]

The Zen Way to Martial Arts: A Japanese Master Reveals the Secrets of the Samurai by Taisen Deshimaru

Taisen Deshimaru one of the great Zen masters of our times suggests the only way to achieve true body, mind, spirit and sword unification is through the practice of zazen.

Tesshu, Musashi and even Yagyu Munenori held these beliefs. Takuan also promoted this concept.

Most westerns blow this off like they do with "ki", and try to rationalize it in thier own way.

I often wonder if this holds them back from acheiving the the higher levels in Kendo.

[turboyoshi]

There might be a few Zen Buddhists out there who disagree with you, considering that Zen is a sect of Mahayana Buddhism.


Hmm, I could be confused, my last study on these matters is years old and I've since decided religion is not something I can accept. Still, I thought buddhists believed in the concept of a cycle of death and rebirth until eventual enlightenment is achieved? If so, the "soul" is implied since there must exist something that carries on after the death of the body to be reborn. If I'm not wrong, buddhist thought deals with a concept of some divine presence? This concept is also a distinct element of religious thought.

I understood zen to be a japanese school of thought, unrelated to any religious beliefs. Argh, now my brain hurts.

sean

[Kenzan]

, I thought buddhists believed in the concept of a cycle of death and rebirth.


The concept of life-death-renewal (or continuity) hardly requires belief.



until eventual enlightenment is achieved?


Some sects emphasize this more than others, but even the most ardent scholars often disagree on if the process is more continuous cause and effect like a rolling stone, or does it simply just *happen* one day.



If so, the "soul" is implied since there must exist something that carries on after the death of the body to be reborn.



This is also a matter of which sect we are speaking of. The largest school of Buddhist thought, Mahayana the "soul" as it exists in the Judeo-Christian sense, doesn't really exist, mainly due to the fact that your "self", what makes you you, is in it of itself, illusory.

It's more accurate to define reincarnation as;
Just as an apple tree is engaged in "appleing," so does the Earth engage in "peopleing."

The self being no different from the manifestation of all things, so mainly the concept of birth, death, life, rebirth (as the same "soul" in a different body) is used here in the metaphorical sense. You see more of a literal belief of this kind in religions such as Hinduism.




If I'm not wrong, buddhist thought deals with a concept of some divine presence? This concept is also a distinct element of religious thought.


Divinity in the Buddhist sense, is most thought of as the understanding of the true nature of reality.
Since I myself admittedly don't know what this is, I cannot comment, other than to say it is suspected that since dualism is also illusory, then divinity as defined by: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b: being a deity the divine Savior> c: directed to a deity <divine worship>
is also illusory.

For example, in the film The Matrix, the famous line, "There is no spoon."
From a Buddhist perspective, especially a Zen perspective, spoon and no spoon are manifestations of our dualistic nature.
Therefore it would be more accurate to simply say:

Spoon is.

[NigelSponge]

think about whatever makes you happy imo

[Gessho]

It has been my experience that this is incorrect. There are very few ryuha in Japan that associate their teachings with buddhism of any kind. .

In the book Persimmon Wind, the author states that many of the traditional sword styles used an esoteric form of Buddhism as source of their spiritual strength or energy.

My guess is that when kendo became formalized they used a general version of zen buddhism which would appeal to a large cross-section of people since esoteric religious practice would appear as too strange and forbidding.

[whosesoever]

The point of meditation is to let go, and not control; your breath should be natural; just let your body breath.
In regards to meditation and its application to Kendo; when one is mindful, ones mind is still like a still pond. Even though ones mind is still, it is aware of the environment. When your mind is filled with thoughts, plans, strategy, you are not aware.

[Hyarion]

I brought up in another thread, the notion that zen underpins the whole of modern japanese culture, whereas zen is pretty much absent in the west.
So while Zazen isn't overtly part of Kendo in Japan, it lies at the very core of Budo. I personally feel that it would be of great benefit to to western kendo to address the cultural gap between japan and the west and the fact that Zazen is often overlooked by the western dojos.

I'm actually doing postgraduate research on Zen and Japanese culture. So far I have found that the relationship is pretty much non-existent, and simply a romantic myth perpetuated by westerners.

So for example, a myth might be that Zen brought over tea and tea drinking from China because it helped the monks meditate, and was adopted by normal people who had contact with Zen people.

The truth is that tea had been in Japan long before then, but just that no one drunk it. And indeed Eisai, a Zen monk, did bring over tea sometime around 1200, but he did so because he thought Japan was full of sick and scrawny people, and that drinking tea would make them stronger (tea was considered a magical elixer in China). He petitioned the emperor to drink tea as an example to others.

And most other examples of Zen influence on Japanese culture follow this example: sure, Zen was there, but it had nothing to do with Zen-experience.


As pgsmith points out, the idea that zen is intricately tied to martial practice seems to be incorrect. This idea was further perpetuated by Herrigels's book on zen as he relates it to archery but Herrigel seems to have applied a bit of literary license to his archery sensei's teachings. There is plenty of reason to not take Herrigel too seriously, and consequently, those who based later works on his ideas.

Yes, there is actually a really good essay floating around somewhere about all the things Herrigel got wrong, or misunderstood.


Zen and buddhism are separate philosophies, btw. Zen is a philosophy for living, similar to taoism, stoicism, etc. Buddhism is a religion, dealing with the concepts fo the soul and afterlife and morality. These philosophies complement each other but they should not be confused as belonging to each other. They deal with separate aspects of humanistic thought.

Zen is original Indian Buddhism mixed with Chinese Taoism. But the Taoism only served to bring the practical everyday aspects of Buddhism out into the open. In fact, I think that Zen is perhaps the form of Buddhism which most holds to the original ideals.

You are right that there are many forms of Buddhism in today's world, and yes, many of them believe in some form of soul or afterlife. But please realise that this has absolutely nothing to do with real Buddhism. They are Buddhist in name only.


Hmm, I could be confused, my last study on these matters is years old and I've since decided religion is not something I can accept. Still, I thought buddhists believed in the concept of a cycle of death and rebirth until eventual enlightenment is achieved? If so, the "soul" is implied since there must exist something that carries on after the death of the body to be reborn. If I'm not wrong, buddhist thought deals with a concept of some divine presence? This concept is also a distinct element of religious thought.

I understood zen to be a japanese school of thought, unrelated to any religious beliefs. Argh, now my brain hurts.


This is a perversion of the notion of rebirth. The idea is that by clinging to every thought, feeling, emotion and desire as it arises within your mind (something you have little control over) you perpetuate an idea of "self". Sort of like "I want this" "I am feeling this" and so on. By attaching ourselves we "turning the wheel of rebirth" which means that from moment to moment we are recreating a concept of self, of this "me" or ego or whatever you want to call it.

Originally Buddhism openly proclaimed that there was 'no-self' meaning that there was nothing which existed after death. But unfortunately this notion is counter-intuitive, and people don't want to believe it, so they misinterpret it.

[Oroshi]

Yes, there is actually a really good essay floating around somewhere about all the things Herrigel got wrong, or misunderstood.

http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/586.pdf

It's a great read.

[Kenzan]

So far I have found that the relationship is pretty much non-existent, and simply a romantic myth perpetuated by westerners.



-As well as purveyors of bizarre and generally crappy consumer (http://search.ebay.com/zen_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsopZ1QQmaxrecordsreturnedZ300)pr oducts.

[Hyarion]

This is a perversion of the notion of rebirth. The idea is that by clinging to every thought, feeling, emotion and desire as it arises within your mind (something you have little control over) you perpetuate an idea of "self". Sort of like "I want this" "I am feeling this" and so on. By attaching ourselves we "turning the wheel of rebirth" which means that from moment to moment we are recreating a concept of self, of this "me" or ego or whatever you want to call it.

Was going to add (but 5 minutes expired):

Through non-attachment we start losing the illusion of a real self, and we eventually accept things as they are because there is no longer this notion of 'I' and 'me' as relating to other things. This is called enlightenment. Nothing magical or mystical. You don't start shooting blue fireballs from your eyes.

Originally Buddhism openly proclaimed that there was 'no-self', which implies that there was nothing which existed now or after death which is a real "self". But unfortunately this notion is counter-intuitive, and people don't want to believe it, so they misinterpret it.

[Hyarion]

http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/586.pdf

It's a great read.

Oh wow, that was quick!

I actually lost it and haven't bothered looking for it since. Thank you.

[whosesoever]

"I'm actually doing postgraduate research on Zen and Japanese culture. So far I have found that the relationship is pretty much non-existent, and simply a romantic myth perpetuated by westerners."

That sounds interesting. But surely, this thought have came to mind. If indeed the relationship between Zen and Japanese culture is non-existent, but then what does that have to do with the application of Zen to Kendo? When we look at the way Americans eat their burgers, we find no connection of Americans eating burgers to the practice of Zen. However, this does not mean that the practice of Zen cannot be applied to the act of eating burgers. I would believe and expect if one is able to apply the Zen practice to the act of eating burgers; that person would gain a whole new appreciation for burgers. His mind would be clear and focus on just eating the burger; enjoying every bite, and not wandering around thinking of what he have to do after eating the burger. Sometimes when we sit down and eat, and when we have finished, we do not remember how we have finished, that is eating without mindfulness, without Zen.

[Hyarion]

But surely, this thought have came to mind. If indeed the relationship between Zen and Japanese culture is non-existent, but then what does that have to do with the application of Zen to Kendo? When we look at the way Americans eat their burgers, we find no connection of Americans eating burgers to the practice of Zen. However, this does not mean that the practice of Zen cannot be applied to the act of eating burgers. I would believe and expect if one is able to apply the Zen practice to the act of eating burgers; that person would gain a whole new appreciation for burgers. His mind would be clear and focus on just eating the burger; enjoying every bite, and not wandering around thinking of what he have to do after eating the burger. Sometimes when we sit down and eat, and when we have finished, we do not remember how we have finished, that is eating without mindfulness, without Zen.

I think this is a great idea. There is no reason you should not apply Zen to kendo. In fact, the Korean kendo team introduced Zen as part of their training (I think that was in a documentary somewhere).

And there is probably some connection between martial arts and Zen... not so much that Zen influenced martial arts, but instead that they share some common concepts, and that Zen teachers thought this to be interesting and started to talk about both things together. (There's a nice little book called 'The Unfettered Mind: Writings of the Zen Master to the Sword Master' which really expresses this point).

Maybe you should start some Zen yourself? I like the idea of applying Zen to eating burgers. This is probably the very essence of Zen... Zen in everyday life.

[Kenzan]

This is called enlightenment.

Which is one of the classical paradoxes (and some would say traps) of Zen study.

[Hyarion]

Which is one of the classical paradoxes (and some would say traps) of Zen study.

The fact that you do not actually gain anything?

Once you let go everything is laid out before you. But words are easily spoken, practice is the difficult part.

[whosesoever]

Practice is very difficult... /sigh.

[pgsmith]

Tesshu, Musashi and even Yagyu Munenori held these beliefs. Takuan also promoted this concept.
You are correct, but Ono Ha Itto ryu, Niten Ichi ryu, and Yagyu Shinkage ryu are only three of the many hundreds of ryuha listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. Mugai ryu also incorporates a lot of buddhist teachings in the ryu. A number of koryu would utilize Mikkyo in their teachings also, as it blends well with Shinto, which is the major religious underpinning of the vast majority of the koryu. There is a reason that a Kamidana is fairly common in a traditional dojo or Japanese household. :)


Most westerns blow this off like they do with "ki", and try to rationalize it in thier own way.
I disagree with you. Many westerners tend to overemphasize the role of zen in the martial arts, or in things Japanese. They tend to overemphasize "ki" also. Neither of these things will get much, if any, talk time within Japanese martial arts circles in Japan. Not in my experience anyway. These tend to be looked upon as things which you will learn through experience, not talking, therefore you don't hear much about them. It's only in the west where we talk these subjects to death. :) Gives us something to discuss on Kendo World though!

[Kenzan]

Once you


When asking this question, all I got was: There's no you, only "The."



let go


I read in a fortune cookie once: "You are born with everything you need. There can be nothing added, nor anything subtracted."



everything is


Exactly.
So why can't I see it?



laid out before you.


Whom is doing the laying?
You? Who are you? Us? we? Meaningless?
It?
what is it?
If there is only the moment,
then what is the nature of that moment?
To experience from moment to moment, unfiltered by the mind?
Pure perception!!
What is the Buddha?
Buddha is.

Aha!!
I got it now!!!! Simple as that!... I said to myself.
-and it was at that precise moment that I felt myself being smacked across the room.
Try again.

Man, I really hate raking leaves.

[Hyarion]

Aha!!
I got it now!!!! Simple as that!... I said to myself.
-and it was at that precise moment that I felt myself being smacked across the room.
Try again.

Man, I really hate raking leaves.

Seriously, you were training in a Zen monastery? If so, sounds like you had a good teacher haha.

On here I'm just repeating all the stuff I've learnt over the years through academic study. It makes sense, but that won't get me anywhere. At all. So don't think that I think of myself as knowing anything about Zen... I'm just "academically" setting the record straight about Zen. That is all.

[Kenzan]

So don't think that I think of myself as knowing anything about Zen... .

Me neither.


Except that I know that farting can be very Zen.

[kurisu]

You are correct, but Ono Ha Itto ryu, Niten Ichi ryu, and Yagyu Shinkage ryu are only three of the many hundreds of ryuha listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. Mugai ryu also incorporates a lot of buddhist teachings in the ryu. A number of koryu would utilize Mikkyo in their teachings also, as it blends well with Shinto, which is the major religious underpinning of the vast majority of the koryu. There is a reason that a Kamidana is fairly common in a traditional dojo or Japanese household. :)


I disagree with you. Many westerners tend to overemphasize the role of zen in the martial arts, or in things Japanese. They tend to overemphasize "ki" also. Neither of these things will get much, if any, talk time within Japanese martial arts circles in Japan. Not in my experience anyway. These tend to be looked upon as things which you will learn through experience, not talking, therefore you don't hear much about them. It's only in the west where we talk these subjects to death. :) Gives us something to discuss on Kendo World though!


I wasn't speaking in terms of ryu, I was speaking in terms of great swordsmen who acheived the highest levels of, or what they call profound understanding of swordsmanship. From everything I've read, they all believed and practiced zazen as part of thier training.

As to "ki", I am refering to everything I've read posted here in KW. Most people here have thier own opinions of what it is, and most do not believe what was commonly accepted in Japan, which is loosely a type of energy that is all encompassing, something that you can harness and use, something you can project. Take for instance the conversations about seme. You never see anyone saying it's the projection of "ki". But that is widely accepted in other matial arts, such as aikido. Heiho Kandensho has specific examples of how "ki" works, but I never see anyone accepting that as a reality. I've seen lots of expinations though of what people think it is.

Which brings me back to wondering, if you do beleive in "ki" and you do practice zazen, will your kendo reach higher levels?

I'm trying that route.

[Maku-san]

Me neither.


Except that I know that farting can be very Zen.

Especially when you're mindin' yer own biz-ness, being all calm and stuff, no-mindedness, and then the stench goes STRAIGHT FROM YER NOSTRILS TO PIERCE YER BRAIN! :eek:

Talk of Enlightenment... it's EnSMELLenment! :ko:

[hl1978]

Which brings me back to wondering, if you do beleive in "ki" and you do practice zazen, will your kendo reach higher levels?

I'm trying that route.


I'll say this, that there has been some bruhaha in the aikido world both in and outside Japan because some senior exponents were never shown how to develop ki, or their teachers didn't know either. As a result, they are bringing in outsiders, or dropping affiliations in order to cultivate skills that were lost.

There is a connection between meditative breathing and cultivating "ki", the latest theory having to do with utilizing and contracting the fascia. Supposedly you can also get similar results through misogi practice. That being said, unless you have someone to guide you, the likelihood that you will pick this sort of thing up on your own is pretty low (I would expect to see some crossover into kendo in a few years). Likewise my current kendo instructor is also a buddist monk and has likened some of his training to kendo training, but has expressed that its a rather indirect way to get the same results, and will likely only happen to someone who has been doing kendo for years.

[kurisu]

I'll say this, that there has been some bruhaha in the aikido world both in and outside Japan because some senior exponents were never shown how to develop ki, or their teachers didn't know either. As a result, they are bringing in outsiders, or dropping affiliations in order to cultivate skills that were lost.

There is a connection between meditative breathing and cultivating "ki", the latest theory having to do with utilizing and contracting the fascia. Supposedly you can also get similar results through misogi practice. That being said, unless you have someone to guide you, the likelihood that you will pick this sort of thing up on your own is pretty low (I would expect to see some crossover into kendo in a few years). Likewise my current kendo instructor is also a buddist monk and has likened some of his training to kendo training, but has expressed that its a rather indirect way to get the same results, and will likely only happen to someone who has been doing kendo for years.


I agree with you all the way. Zazen, like Kendo, needs a good sensei showing you the way.

[xvikingx]

Especially when you're mindin' yer own biz-ness, being all calm and stuff, no-mindedness, and then the stench goes STRAIGHT FROM YER NOSTRILS TO PIERCE YER BRAIN! :eek:

Talk of Enlightenment... it's EnSMELLenment! :ko:
How long until summer vacation is over and you have to go back to grade school?

[Hyarion]

my current kendo instructor is also a buddist monk and has likened some of his training to kendo training, but has expressed that its a rather indirect way to get the same results, and will likely only happen to someone who has been doing kendo for years.

Neat. What is he like?

[1stdan]

Me neither.


Except that I know that farting can be very Zen.


Man I feel better now. Kenzan was freaking me out be all on the serious tip. Sheesh. Aside from my smartassedness this has been a great thread.

[nonamehandle]

hyarion,

good to see that you are still on the forum. do not want to take you to task, but am just curious since you are doing post-graduate research...you in your prior post said that you have no interest in learning japanese and have difficulty reading kanji (probably means much difficulty with kanbun?). how are you pursuing your studies then? i am supposing that you will not have access to any primary material (unless it is translated into english)? and most of the information that you are providing are from english and german sources?

i have met lot of "top level" sinologist and koreanist from the west who have inadequate knowledge of the language and/or culture, so i hope that i am not singling you out for anything.


I'm actually doing postgraduate research on Zen and Japanese culture...




I cannot speak much Japanese, and do not have a real interest in learning it. I can already speak two languages, and that is more than enough for me. So yea, remembering Japanese names, and reading kanji, is difficult for me.




Zen is original Indian Buddhism mixed with Chinese Taoism. But the Taoism only served to bring the practical everyday aspects of Buddhism out into the open. In fact, I think that Zen is perhaps the form of Buddhism which most holds to the original ideals.

You are right that there are many forms of Buddhism in today's world, and yes, many of them believe in some form of soul or afterlife. But please realise that this has absolutely nothing to do with real Buddhism. They are Buddhist in name only.


this is interesting as i've had this "sort" of conversation with other buddhists scholars and grad students. mostly it dealt with the notion of what is original buddhism and what is meant by "original" ideals of buddhism (i.e. do you mean to say that zen is closest to "primitive" buddhism? the buddhism of buddha's time?). of course your wording of "real" buddhism would fall into the category of "curious" statement for me as well.

[whosesoever]

I am surprised by these statements as well. I say we remove the discussion of what Buddhism is, and what Buddhism is not, from this discussion, as it only spread information that we do not have a firm grasp of. Like all religious practices, intellectual understanding of Zen Buddhism is one thing, but practice is a whole other beast. We can readily apply this to Kendo, we may understand Kendo intellectually, but the key is the practice. So lets practice.

[Hyarion]

but am just curious since you are doing post-graduate research...you in your prior post said that you have no interest in learning japanese and have difficulty reading kanji (probably means much difficulty with kanbun?). how are you pursuing your studies then? i am supposing that you will not have access to any primary material (unless it is translated into english)? and most of the information that you are providing are from english and german sources?

i have met lot of "top level" sinologist and koreanist from the west who have inadequate knowledge of the language and/or culture, so i hope that i am not singling you out for anything.

Well, I use English language sources, sometimes translated from Japanese. I'm not really concerned with "primary material" as I approach everything with a critical eye, and I write from a philosophical perspective, not a historical one. So in a sense I take what seems to be right, and what seems to agree with other sources, and I present that. I would never on my life quote some ancient Buddhist text and say "see, he said it so it must be true!" And this counts doubly for modern sources. Just because D. T. Suzuki says something does not make it right.

I don't believe that things regarding Buddhism or Zen can get lost in translational. Perhaps from the practising side of things, if a teacher says something in Japanese and a student receives it translated in English then perhaps the meaning gets lost. But I'm only dealing with simple things which are commonly accepted, at least academically. Of course, if you are implying that one cannot have an intellectual grasp of Zen, then I agree. But that did not stop hundreds of Zen masters writing books about it. Things can be communicated through words.

I've uploaded a list of references for an essay on Zen and Japanese culture if you want to have a look: http://www.mediafire.com/?xcobww1jjv4


this is interesting as i've had this "sort" of conversation with other buddhists scholars and grad students. mostly it dealt with the notion of what is original buddhism and what is meant by "original" ideals of buddhism (i.e. do you mean to say that zen is closest to "primitive" buddhism? the buddhism of buddha's time?). of course your wording of "real" buddhism would fall into the category of "curious" statement for me as well.

The Buddhist scholar Christmas Humpreys quoted Father Thomas Merton as having said:

"[Before I came to understand Buddhism] it had been a very mysterious and confusing jumble of words, images, doctrines, legends, rituals, buildings, and so forth. [Now it seems to me] that the great and baffling cultural luxuriance which has clothed the various forms of Buddhism in different parts of Asia is the beautiful garment thrown over something quite simple."

If you are happy with Buddhism being a religion (as in Tibet) then fine, but if you are interested in the original meaning of Buddhism, what the point of it was, without all the superstition and afterlife crap, then you need to see most of modern Buddhism as a perversion of something quite simple. And it is this 'simple thing' which is "original" Buddhism.

[Hyarion]

I am surprised by these statements as well. I say we remove the discussion of what Buddhism is, and what Buddhism is not, from this discussion, as it only spread information that we do not have a firm grasp of. Like all religious practices, intellectual understanding of Zen Buddhism is one thing, but practice is a whole other beast. We can readily apply this to Kendo, we may understand Kendo intellectually, but the key is the practice. So lets practice.

Ok. Thread derailed. So what were we talking about?

[Nik.Koch]

Back to the roots of ths thread, mukoso and how we do it.
The way I do it is based on Ki breathing technics in order to set up my mind and make my tanden stronger. So I focus the Ki on my tanden. (Beginner stuff). What I find sad is the fact that in a lot of Dojos Mukoso seems to be only a form without any content. They do it for 10 seconds or so. That is only form. In that case, you could just drop it and put your tengugi directly on. I was told to breath in trough the nose into my tanden, hold the breath for a few seconds and then breath out through the mouth but that slow, that a feather in front of my mouth wont move. One cycle like that takes me 45 - 60 seconds depending on my daily form. I was told to do 3 cycles in one mokoso which results in 2,5 - 3 Minutes. When I get sick, I get to know that first by my breath (capacity and smoothness is down).

[Alison2805]

Personally, 10 seconds, even 5 seconds is fine. All I want from mokuso is to stop thinking about work, or the traffic, or the fact that I really wanted to watch that movie that was on tonight... whatever. Just relax, remind myself what Im here for, and put everything else out of my mind.

I dont want to meditate, I dont want to be buddist, I dont care what some monk said, and I dont care how it fits into japanese culture through the ages, I dont care if its "real" buddism or some hippy nonsense. I DONT CARE. Im there to practise kendo and mokuso helps me get in the mindset to do that. For me there is NO RELIGION IN KENDO. And I like it that way.

If Im supposed to get some higher enlightenment, Ill get it from kakarigeiko, not mokuso. I remember my sensei telling me the only time he meditated was when we was sitting on the loo.

Of course if you want to get all zen and whatever, go for it. As long as you dont expect me to.

[Hyarion]

Of course if you want to get all zen and whatever, go for it. As long as you dont expect me to.

No one does. You are welcome to whatever life you wish.

[Kenzan]

I do Zazen for the Makkyo.
Cooler than Batman,
and way better than Pancakes.

[hl1978]

Neat. What is he like?

A rather interesting guy who has studied/been a part of several faiths before joining the monkhood/priesthod (also practices kyudo, formerly naginata and occasionally joins our iaido class) . Occasionally, he does spend some time at the end of class linking personal development to kendo along with how things tie in between the other arts he has studied and stresses the needs to study other JSA in order to understand Japanese swordsmanship.

What I appreciate is that he doesn't force his religious/personal views on any of us and respects that people have a wide range of reasons to do kendo. He has intimated that if someone has more interest in learning meditation, to check out his sangha.

[JByrd]

On here I'm just repeating all the stuff I've learnt over the years through academic study. It makes sense, but that won't get me anywhere. At all. So don't think that I think of myself as knowing anything about Zen... I'm just "academically" setting the record straight about Zen. That is all.

So, what happens when you reach enlightenment? Do all the other monks clap with one hand?

[Gessho]

-As well as purveyors of bizarre and generally crappy consumer (http://search.ebay.com/zen_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsopZ1QQmaxrecordsreturnedZ300)pr oducts.

True except for this one which is a sweet book and great for young kids http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Zen-Ties_W0QQitemZ170240554185QQihZ007QQcategoryZ279QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[deepvisual]

you need to see most of modern Buddhism as a perversion of something quite simple. And it is this 'simple thing' which is "original" Buddhism.

nothing quite like a bit of misunderstanding is there....
but thats the trouble with Buddhism - you have to do it to understand it, you cant just intellectualise it, otherwise all those fusty old scholars at the British museum would be enlightened after decades of leafing through ancient folios.

The one thing that makes buddhism unique is that it is a growing living tradition that has an unbroken lineage. The simplicity is kept alive by Buddism's ability to constantly change and yet remain the same. if it kept to its 'origins' it would soon become stale and hollow - a bit like some of the more mainstream faiths.

I think people underestimate how deep Buddhist ideas can permeate into host cultures, to the point where they are part of the bricks and mortar. I don't have a zen background myself, but I often find familiar buddhist ideas in Japanese culture, often in the strangest places. I was once told by a Japanese who's family still consider themselves Samurai in the classic sense, that killing quickly and accurately had its origins in the idea of compassion - duty required that a person be killed, compassion required that it be done with the minimum of suffering.

I'd say that just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. You might have to poke around a bit first.

[Kagerou]

Anyone else notice the more people try and explain zen/buddhism the less and less sense they make. Maybe there's a hint in all that.

[Hyarion]

nothing quite like a bit of misunderstanding is there....

Well, let me ask you: how are the following related to each other?

Pure Land Buddhism - believe that by chanting a single name over and over that they will gain entrance into a land of eternal happiness and bliss.

Nichiren Buddhism - believe that by chanting and reading the Lotus sutra.... er, something will happen, and often believe that they are saving Japan from disaster by doing so.

Tibetan Buddhism - an almost incomprehensible mixture of ritual, pictures, chants, meditation, gods and whatnot, and placing emphasis on rebirth. Was also a form of feudalism.

Theravada Buddhism - concerned with the virtuous life. Different customs dependent on location.

Rinzai zen - emphasises meditation and koans

Soto zen - considers koans to be "tricks" and instead emphasises "just sitting"

So, which one is Buddhism? Trust me, there are many many more out there, and most have diametrically opposing views.

If you think that they all eventually lead to the same thing... well, I might agree with that. But this is like saying 'to learn kendo you must first walk backwards for 100 kilometres, then hold your left index finger on your nose for 1 year, and then learn The Great Gatsby by heart.'

Refer to the Merton quote above: all the different forms of Buddhism today are the colourful garments thrown over something quite simple.

If you disagree please discuss why.

[whosesoever]

At the basis of all of these forms of Buddhism is the Four Noble Truths; the Fourth Noble Truth is the culmination of the first three, which is the Eightfold Path. The Eightfold Path presents the pathway for which a student can practice. Again, we end up with practice. Depending upon the form of Buddhism a person follows, there is a different way to practice; however, the core of his practice is still the Four Noble Truths.

[Hyarion]

but thats the trouble with Buddhism - you have to do it to understand it, you cant just intellectualise it, otherwise all those fusty old scholars at the British museum would be enlightened after decades of leafing through ancient folios.

I agree with this, but I also think that it is something that is repeated over and over without any understanding .

Imagine this.

A person come to you and says he has never practised a day of kendo in his life. However, he know the following:

When you start kendo you sit in seiza, you do mokuso, you bow to your teacher, you put your men on in such and such a way, you put your kote on, you get up and line up with someone, you stand straight facing them, heels together and feet at 90 degrees apart, you bow 15 degrees, you take 3 big steps in (while keeping toes on the ground), you take your shinai from your side and hold it in kamai, you go into sankyo, you get up and start to practice. Practice consists of hitting men in such and such a way, hitting kote.....

And so on. He describes everything about kendo to you, all the cuts, all the techniques, all the waza, all the kata, everything.

Now, would you say that this person knows nothing about kendo? Or would you say that he can describe kendo quite well, but he just can't do it?

I would opt for the second choice.

In order to have Zen-experience, enlightenment, whatever you want to call it, sure, you need to practice something. But this "something" is not very complicated, it just takes a lot of practice. It is easy to say what to practice, just like that person up there can describe how to do kendo, but it is hard to actually do it.

Shunryu Suzuki famously said this: "We don’t practice zazen to attain some big enlightenment that will change our whole being or solve all our problems. That is not the right understanding. That may be what people call “Zen,” but true Zen is not like that."

What does he think true Zen is? It is: "Just sit."

Unfortunately this does not measure up to the expectations some people have of Zen or Buddhism. It is counter-intuitive, and thus people go in search of something that "you cant just intellectualise."

You are right, talking about Zen will not get you anywhere, just like talking about kendo will not get you anywhere. But where would you be in kendo today if no one ever talked about it?

[Rob W.]

But talk is useless unless the person who's talking practices as well. What Noma Hisashi and Moriji Mochida and Chiba sensei have to say has a different weight than words of Japanophiles and even shodans. Same for religious discussions, the source's experience is an important consideration.

[whosesoever]

In this post, http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18658 (What are your goals in Kendo?), I quoted "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" by Shunryu Suzuki, where he said, "the goal is to "just practice... whether we find joy in our practice or not, we just do it." I think this sums up really well how we can apply the Zen practice to Kendo.

[deepvisual]

At the basis of all of these forms of Buddhism is the Four Noble Truths; the Fourth Noble Truth is the culmination of the first three, which is the Eightfold Path.

There is a very highly regarded Tibetan Lama in the UK who has taught here since 1963, but who never teaches the eightfold path. I assume he regards it as vestigial - appropriate to ancient india, but kinda pointless in the modern world.
instead he says
do what makes you happy
dont do what makes you unhappy
train your mind.

Going back to the thread, religion apart, I think a bit of decent meditation (training for the mind) would bring a big improvement to most people's Kendo, certainly in the developing of character that Kendo is famous for.

[Nik.Koch]

...certainly in the developing of character that Kendo is famous for.

Yeah, but also famous for producing BIG assholes!

[Hyarion]

Yeah, but also famous for producing BIG assholes!

Kendo or meditation? I would agree to both :(

[Bokushingu]

The point of meditation is to let go, and not control; your breath should be natural; just let your body breath.
In regards to meditation and its application to Kendo; when one is mindful, ones mind is still like a still pond. Even though ones mind is still, it is aware of the environment. When your mind is filled with thoughts, plans, strategy, you are not aware.

I just found this thread...I think when I first saw it I just passed over it. ME & wife went over it & she said the post in quotes explains what she was trying to tell me.

Thanks for the great read

[Hyarion]

I'm sad this thread died :(

[deepvisual]

impermanence is the nature of all things

fortunately the causes that brought this thread into existance are still active so the thread has reincarnated.
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18759