Olympic Torch, Chinese Violence

[nonamehandle]

The torch made its round through seoul, korea yesterday. I had a meeting so could not see the actual torch itself but was able to see the streets lined with chinese students and chinese living in korea waving their flag. i could naturally understand their pride, but their actions toward those who spoke out against chinese government policies was abhorrent.

i am quite angered by the actions of these chinese and their intimidation tactics: esp. because if i did not have a prior meeting, i might have gone out to show my support for the tibetan cause and i would have been the target of their terror. the video below is just one of the several incidences where anyone who seemed to be sympathizers of tibet or critiques of china were attacked. just wearing a free tibet t-shirt was apparently enough to make the chinese hound people.


http://tvpot.daum.net:80/clip/ClipView.do?clipid=7803782&lu=t_c_topsee_1

[imnothere]

I concure. We had lots of these things happened too. The whole journey to Canberra was absolutely (according to media) swamped by Chinese supporters.

[Big One]

What pissing me off the most is the argument "this is about olympic" not political point. However, Human dignity, right of freedom, and living like a human beings, is not about political but about Human. It is what about olympic too. It is like partying next to a slump.

[aloe]

Its sad that politics has entered the olympics.
So instead of friendship and sports, its now politics and sports.

Instead of putting all the blame on the chinese (yes, I dont think their actions on the olympic relay is chivalrous) look at the actions of the protestors from the lighting of the torch in athens to the riots in europe. I dont think the non-chinese carried themselves well too.

Its sad that the true olympics spirit has died, leaving behind a shell.

[always_learning]

I bet visa card international are writing off the US$100Million they spent for the Chinese Olympic sponsorship deal. I haven't seen that Jacky Chan commercial recently!


Anyway there never has been a case in human history in which one ethinic race has been seen to "occupy" the traditional lands of another without such ongoing discrimination and trouble, Tibeto-Burman ethnic group by han chinese is no exception.

[ben]

Its sad that politics has entered the olympics.
So instead of friendship and sports, its now politics and sports.{snip}

The Olympics has never really been separate from politics. The Olympic torch and flame concept was the invention of the Nazis for the 1936 Berlin Olympics. They weren't a part of the Olympics before that.

So the torch itself is not a "pure" symbol free from politics but from the very beginning has been soiled with it's own dark origins. It is entirely appropriate therefore that it gathers such a storm of protest around itself wherever it travels.

b

[Legionario]

http://tvpot.daum.net:80/clip/ClipView.do?clipid=7803782&lu=t_c_topsee_1
Whoa, what a bunch of heroes we have here... one hundred or so against one?

Anyways, having been involved with pro-Tibet associations and actions since many years now, I only hope that one day soon Tibet will be able to break free of China's shackles again. Free Tibet, China out!

Should we boycott the Beijing Olympics? Of course we should, and for a large amount of reasons.

http://www.freetibet.org/
http://www.italiatibet.org/

[kendomusha]

The Olympics has never really been separate from politics. The Olympic torch and flame concept was the invention of the Nazis for the 1936 Berlin Olympics. They weren't a part of the Olympics before that.

So the torch itself is not a "pure" symbol free from politics but from the very beginning has been soiled with it's own dark origins. It is entirely appropriate therefore that it gathers such a storm of protest around itself wherever it travels.

b

Only the relay concept was invented by the Nazis. The flame was first introduced in the '28 Olympic in Amsterdam.

[deepvisual]

China is a world leader and has made many great achievements - these should rightly be celebrated at the Olympics.

I will be celebrating the arrest of the world's youngest political prisoner, Gendun Chokyi Nyima, held by China for over a decade from the age of six for the crime of being recognised as a reincarnation.
I will be celebrating the fact that China is the world leader in Capital punishment, executing more people per year than the total executed in the rest of the world. Prisoners are now regularly executed to order so their organs can be sold for transplant.
I will also be celebrating the events in Tainanmen square June 4th 1989.
When the rest of the world thinks of China, the thing that springs to mind is the brutal suppression of its own people for the crime of asking for change.

Tibet is not a part of China.
China has occupied Tibet by force since 1950 and continues to do so.
The CPC can easily solve the Tibet issue by dialogue with the Dalai Lama but they refuse to do so.

[Fai]

Some of the protestors are a bit extreme though, pouring petrol over themselves and trying to set themselves alight. running around with blades and stuff is pretty bad.

I am definately not a pro-china fan but things like this will not help.

[aloe]

Heard a very interesting comment today. So what about America's policy in the Middle east. Was it really to free oppression or to protect its oil interests?

I just hate politics. thats why the koreans and taiwanese politicans learn chair-do and glass-jutsu where they hurl drinking glasses at each other and attempt to men-ari with a chair.

[Big One]

Heard a very interesting comment today. So what about America's policy in the Middle east. Was it really to free oppression or to protect its oil interests?

I just hate politics. thats why the koreans and taiwanese politicans learn chair-do and glass-jutsu where they hurl drinking glasses at each other and attempt to men-ari with a chair.


Please tell more about American policy in Middle East.

[nonamehandle]

here is an article that touches on some of the issues regarding this

"The need for unanimity in China exacts a hidden price"

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/24/asia/letter.php


usually i leave these issues off of KW but the reactions of the pro-china mob that i have personally witnessed here in korea has angered me


aloe,

you seem to have a knack for going off track on your own world :)

[nonamehandle]

........double post

[deepvisual]

i post regularly on a creative arts board.
within a day of discussing the olympics we had a total stranger - who we assumed to be paid to do this - turn up and post very strong vilification of the Dalai Lama and who threatened anyone who disagreed with China's position.
he was banned 7 times before he finally gave up.
It was a genuine shock to find that China had professional trolls hounding people on the net.

[Kenzan]

Why did you assume he was paid?

[aloe]

aloe,

you seem to have a knack for going off track on your own world :)

HaHaHah. that's me. <--Middle Eastern supporter:alien:
I have this bad habit of wanting to jump into situations where I will get "hamemred".

[imnothere]

Probably, but then again communism do strange things to people's head.

There was rumor about ten thousands (mainland) Chinese spies in Australia a year or two ago. I have absolutely no idea why they would want to spy on a bunch of kangaroos or wombats.

[aloe]

The chinese is trying to learn the secrets of jumping from the kangaroos so that they will win the jumping events in this years olympics.

[Legionario]

Probably, but then again communism do strange things to people's head.
That's even worse.
Modern day China is a devastating blend of communism and capitalism...

[deepvisual]

Why did you assume he was paid?

because the board itself is very very obscure.
if you were just surfing for any place discussing the olympics, you would find over 7 million hits on google before you would stumble across that single post.

so either our Troll got lucky with his odds of 7m to one, or he was part of a team.

[Mr. T.]

The thing with China is that a country that big, with a regime that is so rigit, that it's very hard for them to change the way their leaders think. Yes, human rights are violated, no free press, they are supporting violent and brutal regimes in Africa for their own financial gane and so forth, but so is every other "world power". All these things mentioned above are done by the USA, although (some) in a lesser degree or more secretly, and many other western nations. So please don't act so high and mighty, your goverment supports atleast one or more corrupt goverment/dictator. The Afganistan goverment for example has many drug/war lords/criminals (Yes, the Taliban suck as well, but atleast the hated drug lords (and killed many) when they where in power). Ok, getting of track here. My point is that China is changing, slowely, but they are. You can't change their way of thinking in 1 or 2 years, unless you get a revolution, it takes decades. The Olympics isn't going to speed thing up (unfortunally). For those of us who respect human rights, it's frustrating, but it's a fact.

One thing is for sure, those bobos of the Olympic commity should never have given the Olympics to the Chinese. Human rights wise they are just not ready. But money was more important to the bobos than human rights. The Olympic commity said that letting the Olympics be hosted by the Chinese would help improve human rights in China but when push came to shove (in other words, when the whole thing blowed up in their face) and human right situation got even worse suddenly the Olympics are no longer politics. So screw the OC.

Done ranting.

[Anonymous]

-------------------------------wat

[Maku-san]

Better beefin' in the Olympics than walkin' through a nuclear wasteland called the "Late Great Planet Earth".

[hl1978]

"The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who Is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost invariably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And if he is not romantic personally, he is apt to spread discontent among those who are."

H.L. Mencken

[Eliza]

This is a really complicated issue. It's not just black and white....
You all should definitely read this article:
The Tibet Question: Is Self-Determination, as a Principle, Absolute?
By Kim Petersen / April 29, 2008 (6:03 am)
<http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-tibet-question-is-self-determination-as-a-principle-absolute/>

[deepvisual]

well, after reading the whole article it turns out it is a black and white issue.

The article does use a lot of lame arguments - such as 'well the Americans stole all that land off the indians, so who are they to lecture China on Tibet, but it ends by saying China should negotiate with the Dalai Lama.
China refuses.

That sounds pretty black and white to me...
The new aristocracy in Beijing find it easier to crush dissent than to negotiate.

[LNGUYEN]

And then sent all of protester to prison with term from life, 20 years, and down. What a lame! and that is where we hold the Olympic, the symbol of human unity and peace. My a.s

[absenteekendoka]

Heard a very interesting comment today. So what about America's policy in the Middle east. Was it really to free oppression or to protect its oil interests?

I just hate politics. thats why the koreans and taiwanese politicans learn chair-do and glass-jutsu where they hurl drinking glasses at each other and attempt to men-ari with a chair.

Of course its about Oil and gas........also a nice way to wave a "big stick" at any nation in the region within striking distance.

And yes China does need to leave Tibet......it is unjust and I do think their govt. does relaize that. Moderate voices have made some progress in China in recent years and there is the gradual movement towards openess and reduction of oppression. In some situations the Chinese police and military have shown restraint recently....frankly surprising me.

The Olympics should not be political but for many years it was more of a showdown between Russia and the US. A platform for "we're better than you" sort of posturing. So in its own way its been political for some time.

Things that don't work:

-politics and the olympics
-church and state (on any level)
-everyones one lazy uncle (come on you all have one)

Just my thoughts....

[Shazzanzzz]

yea... some chinese are too confrontational about the tibetan and other china issues. But they're defending their country. China's human rights are improving as they themselves get globalized both economically and culturally. Their views will eventually open up. You can't rush it. It's not even possible with a small group of people, not alone 13 billion.

With the Tibetan thing... i have Tibetan friends, educated Tibetans want AUTONOMY. not INDEPENDENCE. Even Dalai Lama himself only want more genuine autonomy and have Tibet as a religious zone kind of like Rome. Feel like a lot of westerners just join the 'free tibet' dialogue because they think it's sexy.

[JCM]

yea... some chinese are too confrontational about the tibetan and other china issues. But they're defending their country. China's human rights are improving as they themselves get globalized both economically and culturally. Their views will eventually open up. You can't rush it. It's not even possible with a small group of people, not alone 13 billion.

With the Tibetan thing... i have Tibetan friends, educated Tibetans want AUTONOMY. not INDEPENDENCE. Even Dalai Lama himself only want more genuine autonomy and have Tibet as a religious zone kind of like Rome. Feel like a lot of westerners just join the 'free tibet' dialogue because they think it's sexy.

You beat me to it. Before I start I would like to say that I do not defend the Chinese government policies towards their citizens in general.

However, is good to form your own opinion based on historical information, Tibet has been part of China for over seven centuries, the Dalai Lama lineage is posterior to this (late 1500's). It was only early this century that the Dalai Lama declared separation from China as a unilateral move. so they were never quite 'occupied'. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that they were anexed after the Communist Revolution, this is not the case.

It is true they have suffered plenty of oppression and that they deserve better but don't form your opinion on the Righard Gere's and Bono's of the world (who, by the way live in opulence, which I always found failry paradoxical).

I have also seen a number of Chinese protestors of late, who are trying to improve human rights in their home country, so don't measure all Chinese people with the same stick, a lot of them have suffered too.

[JCM]

Correction: when I said separation, I meant a move towards autonomy in Tibet, not a split

[Big One]

You beat me to it. Before I start I would like to say that I do not defend the Chinese government policies towards their citizens in general.

However, is good to form your own opinion based on historical information, Tibet has been part of China for over seven centuries, the Dalai Lama lineage is posterior to this (late 1500's). It was only early this century that the Dalai Lama declared separation from China as a unilateral move. so they were never quite 'occupied'. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that they were anexed after the Communist Revolution, this is not the case.

It is true they have suffered plenty of oppression and that they deserve better but don't form your opinion on the Righard Gere's and Bono's of the world (who, by the way live in opulence, which I always found failry paradoxical).

I have also seen a number of Chinese protestors of late, who are trying to improve human rights in their home country, so don't measure all Chinese people with the same stick, a lot of them have suffered too.


So what are you saying that since Rome occupied most of the Europe for many centuries, then the Italy has the rights to reoccupy the Europe if they can?

Vietnam was occupied by the Chinese for over a thousand year until they got independence in 900s something. It doesn't make China the rights to occupy Vietnam again.

Therefore, the Tibet can be as free as they want, if they can. Since the Chinese occupied the land before doesn't make them the solely rights owner.

If you want to quote history, be better get a good understand about history.

[absenteekendoka]

So what are you saying that since Rome occupied most of the Europe for many centuries, then the Italy has the rights to reoccupy the Europe if they can?

Vietnam was occupied by the Chinese for over a thousand year until they got independence in 900s something. It doesn't make China the rights to occupy Vietnam again.

Therefore, the Tibet can be as free as they want, if they can. Since the Chinese occupied the land before doesn't make them the solely rights owner.

If you want to quote history, be better get a good understand about history.

In which case I demand that France unconditionally return the wine growing regions we Germans lost a few years ago during some minor misunderstanding between nations. Or ve vill take zem back! ;)

[ghostdancer]

Probably, but then again communism do strange things to people's head.

So does rampant Capitalism

[Kenzan]

I'd really like to lecture people from other countries on the proper ways of respecting the concepts sovereignty and peaceful resolutions to international issues, but you know,

~Iraq and stuff.

[absenteekendoka]

I'd really like to lecture people from other countries on the proper ways of respecting the concepts sovereignty and peaceful resolutions to international issues, but you know,

~Iraq and stuff.

"Diplomacy is just another way of saying 'nice puppy' till you find a big enough rock" :)

[Fred27]

"Diplomacy is just another way of saying 'nice puppy' till you find a big enough rock" :)

Hm...Thats profound! Was it Carl von Clausewitz *coughgranddaughtercough* who said that? :D

[JCM]

So what are you saying that since Rome occupied most of the Europe for many centuries, then the Italy has the rights to reoccupy the Europe if they can?

Vietnam was occupied by the Chinese for over a thousand year until they got independence in 900s something. It doesn't make China the rights to occupy Vietnam again.

Therefore, the Tibet can be as free as they want, if they can. Since the Chinese occupied the land before doesn't make them the solely rights owner.


By that token, the Native Americans can kick everyone out, not to mention Australian Aboriginal people. :)

Not trying to start an argument, I was mereley point out that there is some information out there people may not have considered reading


If you want to quote history, be better get a good understand about history.

Keep it clean, I didn't personally attck anyone.

[Kenzan]

By that token, the Native Americans can kick everyone out, not to mention Australian Aboriginal people. :)


The wiped out animals of the Pleistocene era may disagree with that assessment .
:D

[Eliza]

"Diplomacy is just another way of saying 'nice puppy' till you find a big enough rock" :)

LOL, so funny.

BTW, sorry if I made anyone angry by posting that article. That wasn't my intention. Hope you have a great day. :)

[Anonymous]

bitches dont know bout mah falungong forced organ harvesting camps

[Big One]

By that token, the Native Americans can kick everyone out, not to mention Australian Aboriginal people. :)

Not trying to start an argument, I was mereley point out that there is some information out there people may not have considered reading



Keep it clean, I didn't personally attck anyone.

First, I didn't attack your personality, just point of argument.

By your say is what I am trying to say through out history, the boundary of independence states changed all the times, and as long as everybody happy about that, it is fine. Otherwise, thing will be settled by force, either the invader try to hold on by force or the defender have to take it back by force. There will be no peacful solution. Nobody is stupid to just give the land back without putting a big fight. In that define, Chinese is the occupier of the Tibet and since the Tibetan aren't happy about that, they can either take the state back by force of wait until the Chinese empire is colapsed. Therefore China is the oppressor to the Tibet. The Han ethnic may support it because it is the majority of Chinese. So I can say the Han from China, Taiwan, Singapore, and others living at other countries, will find the justifiable reason to grap on the right to occupy Tibet.

[absenteekendoka]

Empires and ALL civilizations rise and fall....ALL cultures go through this. Its a natural progression of the human condition. And will never change regardless of what sort of pedestle we palce humanity on. ALL political systems seem ideal until we factor in human nature - at which point all bets are off. Self interest takes over ....not always but quite often, just look at the state of the world today. Time for real political change - globally.

[JCM]

First, I didn't attack your personality, just point of argument.

By your say is what I am trying to say through out history, the boundary of independence states changed all the times, and as long as everybody happy about that, it is fine. Otherwise, thing will be settled by force, either the invader try to hold on by force or the defender have to take it back by force. There will be no peacful solution. Nobody is stupid to just give the land back without putting a big fight. In that define, Chinese is the occupier of the Tibet and since the Tibetan aren't happy about that, they can either take the state back by force of wait until the Chinese empire is colapsed. Therefore China is the oppressor to the Tibet. The Han ethnic may support it because it is the majority of Chinese. So I can say the Han from China, Taiwan, Singapore, and others living at other countries, will find the justifiable reason to grap on the right to occupy Tibet.

I am sorry, but I am having trouble understanding your point here, it may be the wording (not being nasty, I honestly don't follow).

[Kenzan]

Perspective: (http://www.universetoday.com/2007/07/25/the-end-of-everything/)

[deepvisual]

Tibet has been part of China for over seven centuries, .

can I just point out, that this is very contentious information.

in fact, China has been part of mongolia and manchuria during that time as well as parts of it belonging to Tibet and (for a short while) Japan.
so its a very poor argument if you use it to support the 1950 invasion of Tibet by the PLA.

like all good communists, the Communist Party of China is very skilled at re-writing history.
its a mistake to take propaganda at face value.

[Big One]

I am sorry, but I am having trouble understanding your point here, it may be the wording (not being nasty, I honestly don't follow).

What I am saying is that the definition of Occupy and free of choice. If the Chinese said that it is their land in the history that they have the right to get it back, and if the Tibetan are happy about being under Chinese control, then all things should be OK. However, as long as I know, the Tibetan don't consider themselves Chinese and they are not happy about living under Chinese control.

Therefore, we can say the Chinese is the invader and oppressor, Who didn't even invest a penny to the land they occupy

[JCM]

can I just point out, that this is very contentious information.

in fact, China has been part of mongolia and manchuria during that time as well as parts of it belonging to Tibet and (for a short while) Japan.
so its a very poor argument if you use it to support the 1950 invasion of Tibet by the PLA.

like all good communists, the Communist Party of China is very skilled at re-writing history.
its a mistake to take propaganda at face value.

Again, as said before, more than once, and on this very thread:

I AM NOT IN ANY WAY SUPPORTING CHINA'S GOVENMENT POLICY.

Please read the posts thouroughly before replying. I am merely pointing out the fact that there is more information out there for people to read and digest when forming an opinion.

[deepvisual]

no need to shout..
my error, I should have wrote, if one uses, but it sounded like I was aiming at you.
sorry.

[absenteekendoka]

Perspective: (http://www.universetoday.com/2007/07/25/the-end-of-everything/)

Pos. rep for you as soon as I can. Human existance is really about perception, and seeing what our place in the universe is.




Now pass my bong! :)

[JCM]

no need to shout..
my error, I should have wrote, if one uses, but it sounded like I was aiming at you.
sorry.

Ok, sorry for the loud post, honestly, I see the points of view expressed here are valid, but is good to read from a number of sources, too often I see friends, colleagues and even myself forming opinions based on limited information.

As a side note (sorry for the drift). I tend to read British authors on Spanish history (particularly on this century) as they tend to be a bit less biased and more factual than Spanish authors, It is really educational. It helps broaden your views

P.S.: Sorry for being a miserable git

[nonamehandle]

not trying to pick on you JCM, just a convenient post to add my thoughts



However, is good to form your own opinion based on historical information, Tibet has been part of China for over seven centuries, the Dalai Lama lineage is posterior to this (late 1500's). It was only early this century that the Dalai Lama declared separation from China as a unilateral move. so they were never quite 'occupied'. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that they were anexed after the Communist Revolution, this is not the case.

i think if you want historical information, one best need to do some research and not just wiki things. not quite sure where and how you are forming these views, but there are lot of anachronistic thinking involved in what you are trying to say. the idea of "china" as the people commonly take it these days and the way the chinese government want its people to take it is a very recent phenomenon. as the idea should indicate to you, this is a nation-state concept of things and hence is a fairly recent concept in chinese history as well as elsewhere in the world.

with the above in mind, also consider that the period of 700 hundred years that you are referring to includes the yuan dynasty, the ming dynasty, the ching dynasty. all of the transition period involved lot of warfare.

yuan 13th-14th century
ming 14th-17th century
ching 17th-20th century

all scholars i know see yuan and ching as non-chinese empires. of course the chinese government are trying to rewrite history by trying to make yuan and ching dynasty as part of "chinese" history and though they have a political agenda that i can understand and maybe even sympathize with (on a very good day), this is not history. so when you say that tibet was part of china for over 700 years, i really have no idea what you are saying or why you are saying that or how you could say that.




I have also seen a number of Chinese protestors of late, who are trying to improve human rights in their home country, so don't measure all Chinese people with the same stick, a lot of them have suffered too.

definitely. not all chinese are the same. and we should not measure them with the same stick. but we can certainly say that the chinese that were wielding the sticks in the video that i posted were assholes and "worthy" targets of criticism.

[JCM]

Please don't make don't make assumptions as to where I source my information, I have had the benefit of an education. Wiki can be refresher at times but is cetainly not where I first heard that side of the argument.

In reply to your comments on the video, there is no excuse for the Chinese rioters, but both sides here have certainly ben keeping a high profile. There has already been too much fuel added to that fire and at some point this was going to happen.

[Lloromannic]

I just saw a picture of a man holding a sign reading "WOULD WE HAVE ALLOWED NAZI GERMANY TO HOST THE OLYMPICS". I laughed.

[Ookami7]

Kenzen, wanted to give ya rep on the Iraq and stuff comment but couldn`t!!! Next time. Remeber people we are talking about nation states here, ie which tend to distort, rewrite, create, etc historical facts/etc along the lines of their own national interests. Other examples is certain nation states in the past have been narco states, slave states, pirate states, etc. 2nd point most winners rewrite history to confirm to their political/social views. Other arguments you could make would be Russia wanting to reoccupy break away soviet states, Japan w/ occupation of China, Korea, and Okinawa (Yes Okinawa was a tiny independent island kingdom till Satsuma clan invaded it!!!) etc. So all the time nation state bounderies are blured due to war, social/economic factors etc etc. For those that haven`t figured it out yet, my B.A. was IS (International studies)

[Eliza]

You guys probably ignore my links now but I thought this was a really interesting/more academic discussion.
It's long but if you have the interest and time, in my opinion, it's worth it. http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073 :ko:

[Fonsz]

Wow my brain hurts trying to follow the link that you provided. If you think that a certain woman from Minnesota with a pocket PC can provide lots of text then this one is the winner. It's sort of interesting but for us it's hard to distinguish the propoganda from the propoganda if you know what I mean. I also find it ironic that in the flame section there's a thread about a torch. Kinda says it all.

[Big One]

Arghh, so much BS in that link's argument.

[sirius1906]

If only mankind will tell the absolute truth in any and all circumstance...but then we may be disgusted with ourselves once the truth comes out.

F politics.

[Eliza]

He does seem just a tad bit pedantic. But if he could just cut down on quantity, I think there is something there. :alien:

[Theodore]

By that token, the Native Americans can kick everyone out....

It may not even be as clean as that. Consider Kennewick Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_man) who, it is hypothesized, is more nearly related to the Ainu than the current ethnic stock we call "Native Americans".

This whole Wilsonian thing about national origin has been the cause of so much trouble.

We should be defined by what the core values we hold and abide by are, and not by our ethnic origin. Or as was said, much more eloquently in 1963 (http://www.usconstitution.net/dream.html),



I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

[Legionario]

http://www.freetibet.org/

[LarsCW]

The olimpics should be about sports, not about free tibet.

Yes, it's awfull that Tibet has been occupied since 1950 but it was the IOC which should have said something like that and make a statement.

The IOC gave the 2008 olympics to China and now there should be sports not politics.

Just the idea how you hear on the news that they are putting pressure on athletes to boycot these olympics just because of the human rights situation in China.

Sure it can be all that bad but it's not what the athlets should be focussing on. They should be focussing on performing the best they can which is what the olympic spirit is all about.

Or are we all going to help to kill the olympic spirit even more?

[deepvisual]

Or are we all going to help to kill the olympic spirit even more?

its the myopic bent officials who gave the olympics to the PRC butchers of tiananmen who are killing the spirit of the event.
Sadly the Olympics isn't only a sporting competition.
Atheletes are entered by nations and nations are defined by politics.

China still feels that it can settle the Tibetan issue with violence. This is something that could eventually affect people across asia and even in the west, because if china feels it doesn't have to negotiate when it is in a position of strength, then sooner or later something bad could happen.

[LarsCW]

I think Germany has proven their choise very clear by speaking with the daila lama. I think it was a bold move of the German goverment which more goverments in the world should follow.

[Jiyoui]

The past riot in march were started by Tibetans.
Tibetans were the ones who start attack the chinese people.

How is this about chinese violence?

[deepvisual]

How is this about chinese violence?
I can only assume you have had your eyes closed for the last 50 years.
Mao's army invaded Tibet.
Tibet is still held by force of arms.
All protests have been brutally suppressed.
Many thousands of political prisoners are tortured in Tibetan prisons.
China still holds the world's youngest political prisoner, Gendun Choekyi Nyima, who was arrested aged 6 along with his whole family, for the crime of being recognised as a reincarnation. He is still missing over a decade later.

Tibet is still an issue, 40 years on, because china prefers violence to negotiation.

[Eliza]

I think in this case, it is important to go to Tibet yourself and find out the truth. The truth is out there and you can go to Tibet now. Don't belive everything on the internet. But you all are wise, so I don't need to tell you that. Best wishes guys. :)

[Big One]

I think in this case, it is important to go to Tibet yourself and find out the truth. The truth is out there and you can go to Tibet now. Don't belive everything on the internet. But you all are wise, so I don't need to tell you that. Best wishes guys. :)


How can the truth is out there when no foreigner is allowed to go there? the only good thing heard is coming from loud mouth propaganda red Chinese. Go figure.

[deepvisual]

I think in this case, it is important to go to Tibet yourself and find out the truth.

I've been to tibet.
and chengdu.
The Tibet:China situation is very complex, but the chinese position is very simple. It's ours.
Well it isn't. The communists stole it.
Even so the Tibetans don't want independence.
They are happy to live alongside their chinese brothers with meaningful autonomy. But the New Aristocrats in the deeply corrupt CPC instead choose to violently suppress any dissent rather than negotiate.

[Eliza]

You all are entitled to believe what you believe, I am not trying to take that away from you. I am just expressing my own skepticism and hoping we can all investigate more. I am sorry if I come across as _____(you can fill in the blank). My intention is not malicious.
Next time you are in Chengdu visit me. I promise I won't bite. We can go on walk and have a tall glass of tea at the park. And then keiko!

[deepvisual]

tea in the park and a battle afterwards.
sounds perfect!

[LarsCW]

This is a very complex situation. If I'm not mistaken the Chinese build a railway to Tibet now so Chinese are able to settle there more easy.

The tibitan violence was because they have felt oppressed for all those years.

Keep in mind that our situation is that we know what we can find out through our media.

We the members of KW should still remain to discuss this with respect.

Eliza, you being Chinese, would you like to elaborate some more about this situation from Chinese point of view.

There are always 2 sides.

I really would like to know from which date those claims are.

Are they century old claims?

[Eliza]

Oh, sorry I am not Chinese, just live here now. :)
M.A. Jones' stance on the PBS forums (the really long link I provided) is pretty much the argument of most Chinese except he uses Western sources for his citations. This PBS link was posted on a Chinese facebook group.

[Big One]

Chinese invaded and occupied Tibet illegally, then no matter what side you are on, it is still ugly.

It was very much like when the European colonized other countries. No matter how do you see it, it was still colonization and the rebels were always named "Beast"

[Jiyoui]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=acHkXqik_Bo&eurl=http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=13747965

Just watch that.
I don't feel like explain in words.
Been working all day... just tired...

this isn't chinese propaganda... this is fact, history

I can explain to you everything about Tibet later.
In the mean time, do some research on Tibetan culture instead of mainsteam news.

Such as, skull soup bowls

I've been living in America for pretty much all my life, left china when I was 6, so don't think this is just another chinese person brainwashed my government propaganda.
Truthfully, yes, I do find a need to defend my country.
I will admit that some of the things China has done were wrong, but that doesn't make everyone else right.

[deepvisual]

this isn't chinese propaganda... this is fact, history

I can explain to you everything about Tibet later.


please do..

actually you missed a better video

Tibet - Cannibal monks reveal their true faces (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=asFUkkIe--s)

these videos are of course, utter rubbish of the highest order.
for example.
In the first movie, The dalai is accused of sexual abuse.
we then see a series of newspaper headlines about Tibetans who belong to a totally different religious order to the Dalai lama.
and what are these sex crimes they have commited??
errr... having sex with consenting adults. the order these people belong to, the Karma Kagyu, has married Lamas and is well known for not being celibate.
yet this is upheld as proof the dalai himself is a sexual deviant.

absolute nonsense - a deliberate attempt to smear China's public enemy #1 based on intentional misrepresentation.

its very a good example of the mindset behind this whole affair.
Why bother with the facts when you can get people whipped up into a frenzy by endlessly repeating lies and making terrible accusations against your opponents.

China may not be as communist as it used to be, but Stalin would be proud of the way they handle the 'splittists'

[LarsCW]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=acHkXqik_Bo&eurl=http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=13747965

Just watch that.
I don't feel like explain in words.
Been working all day... just tired...

this isn't chinese propaganda... this is fact, history

I can explain to you everything about Tibet later.
In the mean time, do some research on Tibetan culture instead of mainsteam news.

Such as, skull soup bowls

I've been living in America for pretty much all my life, left china when I was 6, so don't think this is just another chinese person brainwashed my government propaganda.
Truthfully, yes, I do find a need to defend my country.
I will admit that some of the things China has done were wrong, but that doesn't make everyone else right.

That video is utter trash if you ask me. Like one of the people mentioned, over the last 60 years quality of life has improved big time in the Asian countries around China and their citizens are getting older too.

I think anyone who believes the daila lama is that evil requires therapy.

I'd be really suprised if it would be true.

[Eliza]

This may be a little off topic, but it really hurt my feelings when I read this. How could someone be so heartless and ignorant?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080528/en_afp/entertainmentchinaquakefilmstonepeople
Doesn't she know many ethnic Tibetans living in Aba and other parts of Sichuan were also victims of the quake? It's just so sad when someone says 65,000+ innocent people deserve death (because of karma?).

[Kenzan]

I find it highly ironic that the same folks who decry China the most are perhaps the ones who are the most unaware that pretty much everything they are wearing, use, type on and communicate with; is in fact made in the very country that they disdain.

[mingshi]

...the most unaware that pretty much everything they are wearing, use, type on and communicate with; is in fact made in the very country that they disdain.

Like, I'm very aware the goods are either toxic or made in sweatshop.

[deepvisual]

This may be a little off topic, but it really hurt my feelings when I read this. How could someone be so heartless and ignorant?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080528/en_afp/entertainmentchinaquakefilmstonepeople
Doesn't she know many ethnic Tibetans living in Aba and other parts of Sichuan were also victims of the quake? It's just so sad when someone says 65,000+ innocent people deserve death (because of karma?).

I don't support stone at all in this. I've met her at an event and saw her get boo'd for saying something stupid there too.

On the subject of karma, many westerners have the idea you mentioned, that people somehow deserve what happens to them in life, but it would be more accurate to say that its more like gravity. we don't deserve to fall over, it just happens because of gravity. In the same way 'things' do not exist without a cause - they don't appear out of nowhere. Karma can often be romanticised in a hippy way, but it is just cause/effect - nothing more. Earthquakes happen because of plate tektonics, not politics.

[Fudo-Shin]

I find it highly ironic that the same folks who decry China the most are perhaps the ones who are the most unaware that pretty much everything they are wearing, use, type on and communicate with; is in fact made in the very country that they disdain.Kenzan, with respect, do you boycott these items? There is not much the average Joe can do except but the product that they can afford either from a Chinese or [insert developing country with corrupt officials and greedy rich people with power here] sweatshop. Although I do agree with what you say, we are all but powerless.

[Fudo-Shin]

To add to that, as most of the populace demonstrates...Ignorance is bliss. It all reminds me of George Orwell's, "1984".

[Kenzan]

Kenzan, with respect, do you boycott these items? There is not much the average Joe can do except but the product that they can afford either from a Chinese or [insert developing country with corrupt officials and greedy rich people with power here] sweatshop. Although I do agree with what you say, we are all but powerless.

The answer to that question is no, and exactly for the reasons you mentioned.
My feeling is that especially in light of recent events, we should address with reasonable and responsible measures the very similar shortcomings of our own respective governments and peoples before we start demanding that others change their attitudes.

[Kenzan]

Like, I'm very aware the goods are either toxic or made in sweatshop.

And yet I assume that you (we) still continue to purchase them.

Perhaps if not only unconsciously.

[Fudo-Shin]

The answer to that question is no, and exactly for the reasons you mentioned.
My feeling is that especially in light of recent events, we should address with reasonable and responsible measures the very similar shortcomings of our own respective governments and peoples before we start demanding that others change their attitudes.Cannot rep you for that one, have to spread more etc. I agree, hence I have tried to restrain from putting my own opinions out there on this subject. I think the best I can do at the moment is to be aware...maybe my little chance will come to make a difference one day, maybe not. But in the mean-time there is no use in publicly slandering any population whose' problems I don't fully understand unless, perhaps, they have a direct and intentional negative effect on me. Although I don't agree with what is happening there, I won't blame the people for that...most of the time they are just brain-washed through generations of propoganda anyway, so why blame them for being un-aware. I'm out!

[mingshi]

Exactly.

Not a big fan of violence, but the protesters' goal wasn't to cause more dispute, but raise public awareness that, this year's Olympics is ran by a government with a poor human rights record and other social, economic problems, that the ordinary citizen don't even know about or understand.

Before anyone goes zealously defending their country, they should at least check with reality. "Mind your own business" is just typical Chinese mentality of ignoring what they should face. "Other countries are doing the same" is not an excuse of not making improvements.