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JoDuncan
1st May 2008, 12:02 AM
Hi everyone, we did a spot of referee-ing practice the other day and something came up that i forgot to ask about.

Picture the scene: a good men was struck by the guy in red so I raise my red flag up at 45 degrees and my other two colleagues do the same; clear cut point.

But, like all good kenshi, they didn't pay attention to the flags and keep battling on...

Do i then raise both flags up vertically and call "Yame" until they stop, put then back down by my side then re-raise the red flag up calling "men ari"?
or
do i just keep the flag there and yell yame until they stop then followed by a "men ari"?

Both followed with a dropping of the flag down to the side accompanied with a "nihonme/shobu ari"

thanks people

Shimpan experience is really good fun... bloody tough stuff like but good fun, you get to watch shi ai right up close and be as critical as you like ;)

Neil Gendzwill
1st May 2008, 12:07 AM
As shushin, when you recognise the point has been decided you should call out "men-ari" right away. You can't expect the fighters to check all the flags. If they don't hear you, call out "yame". Keep your flag up until you give the command to start the next point or declare the match won.

JoDuncan
1st May 2008, 12:13 AM
Ahhh, so... Once you see another flag raised (same colour) "men ari" is called straight away, then keep it there, "Yame" if they keep fighting but then no additional "men ari" just straight to "nihome / shobu ari"

Thanks Neil!

bobdonny
1st May 2008, 12:28 AM
What he said:

But better to pre-empt by shouting louder ;)

Neil Gendzwill
1st May 2008, 12:29 AM
Wait until all 3 shimpan have signalled one way or the other, then call "men ari" and wait until they return to centre. Call "yame" if necessary to get them to centre. Then call "nihonme", "shobu" or "shobu-ari" for 2nd point, 3rd point or match won respectively, dropping the flag simultaneously.

JoDuncan
1st May 2008, 02:05 AM
I think that was where we kept screwing up: not everyone would make a signal so rather than signal that you didn't see the point or that you didn't think it was a point a lot of the time people just stood there not knowing what to do!

Thanks again neil.. and bobdonny too. :D

Neil Gendzwill
1st May 2008, 02:14 AM
Yes, you should drill into people that they need to respond, one way or the other. Having said that, if two flags went up and the third judge didn't respond, I'd wait some short amount of time to give him the chance and then call the point. Maybe some more experienced shimpan than me can chime in here - do you call gogi at that point and give him some instruction?

JSchmidt
1st May 2008, 02:33 AM
Yes, you should drill into people that they need to respond, one way or the other. Having said that, if two flags went up and the third judge didn't respond, I'd wait some short amount of time to give him the chance and then call the point. Maybe some more experienced shimpan than me can chime in here - do you call gogi at that point and give him some instruction?

2 flags is enough, so no need to call gogi. Tell him off afterwards for not signalling, as he *should* signal one way or the other.

tango
1st May 2008, 02:47 AM
do you call gogi at that point and give him some instruction?

I think shushin should do that.
if Tagawa-sensei is head of court, he will call a gogi and get it straightened out. (I really learned a lot from him in Cleveland)

If I'm shushin and two of us raise flags, I assume the third is about to raise his flag [assuming he's waiting just a little longer to decide on zanshin, I guess]... if he doesn't think it's a point, he needs to wave it off immediately. If he didn't see it at all, I think the rulebook says he's supposed to cross his flags (pointing down.. not over his head, like hikiwake). But he doesn't just need to stand there and do nothing.

If fukushin stands there and does nothing, I think (as shushin) I would go ahead and call the point, then call gogi to tell him 'don't just sit there', and then move on to nihonmen/shobu/shobari....

The answer to the original question has already been given.
If everybody is raising a flag and they keep going (which is very, very common), shushin just needs to shout louder MEN-ARI, KOTE-ARI, whatever.
If need be, YAME! KOTE-ARI! ... and move on.

More important than that, though, is when only one shimpan raises his flag and the other two don't.... that guy needs to be VERY quick to see the others wave it off and then IMMEDIATELY lower the flag.
I try to be very careful about that myself (especially as shushin)..... nothing sucks more than keeping your flag up there a little too long and then one player sees only you, thinks a point has been called, breaks off the fight, and then instantly gets drilled by the other guy.

True, he should have kept his wits about him, but it's a horrible feeling -- as a shimpan -- to realize that you certainly played a role in that.

tango
1st May 2008, 02:49 AM
2 flags is enough, so no need to call gogi. Tell him off afterwards for not signalling, as he *should* signal one way or the other.

I agree that one could certainly handle it that way, too.... but i'd rather not play a guessing game with the guy throughout a whole match... especially if it goes long into encho.

Neil Gendzwill
1st May 2008, 03:05 AM
nothing sucks more than keeping your flag up there a little too long and then one player sees only you, thinks a point has been called, breaks off the fight, and then instantly gets drilled by the other guy.

True, he should have kept his wits about him, but it's a horrible feeling -- as a shimpan -- to realize that you certainly played a role in that.
Really, nothing sucks more than that? Personally, I think not leaving my beer in the fridge long enough before drinking it sucks more than that. If the senshu stops fighting because he saw a flag, he deserves to get drilled and I won't worry about it at all. Hopefully it's a lesson he'll take to heart.

As far as gogi in that situation goes, that's what I'd do but then I'm almost always doing this at some seminar or other where part of the point of the tournament is to give shimpan some experience. Actually, in those cases I won't call gogi, I'll just say out loud - "you have to respond to every flag". Which of course I wouldn't do in a regular tournament setting.

AlexM
1st May 2008, 06:09 AM
2 flags is enough, so no need to call gogi. Tell him off afterwards for not signalling, as he *should* signal one way or the other.

Actually I was at a shimpan seminar this weekend and we were specifically told to call gogi if one of the judges didn't signal, even if it was irrelevant to the point.

PhilMcLaughlin
1st May 2008, 07:23 AM
2 flags is enough, so no need to call gogi. Tell him off afterwards for not signalling, as he *should* signal one way or the other.

Hmm, who are you (me , anyone) to be telling someone off ?

You are right of course in that shimpan SHOULD make a signal - in a seminar situation its might be ok to be direct - otherwise its up to shimpan to realise they should act

in the post match rei between shimpan you might TACTFULLY remind someone that they need to signal something

its not good form to be stroppy about it though !

just my twop'nce worth


cheers

R Stroud
1st May 2008, 07:39 AM
If I was the shushin in the situation above, I would indeed call gogi (only shushin can after all) to see why one of the fukushin was not issuing a vote of Yukodatotsu or No_Point or Didn't_See (although the last one is to be avoided). The gogi meeting is suppose to be used to insure alignment between all three judges. That is why all of their flags should agree after a gogi.

The shushin should use the gogi to let the 'sleeping' fukushin know that he is required to vote (indicate a decision) every time one of the other two flags signals something.

If the shushin did not do this then the court shinpan-shunin should find an opportunity to do so at the next break between matches.

JoDuncan
1st May 2008, 09:01 PM
I love this forum; so good that a newb like me can learn things like this from you senior folks!

shred_lord
1st May 2008, 09:17 PM
I would indeed call gogi (only shushin can after all)Here is a question, though it relates to a situation that is unlikely to outside of a club refereeing practise.

If you are a Fukushin and one of the sensho is dominating the match, scoring ippon after ippon (so obviously that there appears to be some sort of bias), but you are the only one who is scoring them, can you, as a fukushin call gogi? Or do you have to wait for shimpan-shunin to do so.

JSchmidt
1st May 2008, 09:40 PM
The shushin should use the gogi to let the 'sleeping' fukushin know that he is required to vote (indicate a decision) every time one of the other two flags signals something.


I disagree. The main purpose of the shinpans is to facility the running of the match and calling gogi in a situation where the call is clear, will just disrupt the flow of the match.
Much better to point out after the match is finished, where it will not affect the competitors.

Kenshi
1st May 2008, 09:52 PM
If you are a Fukushin and one of the sensho is dominating the match, scoring ippon after ippon (so obviously that there appears to be some sort of bias), but you are the only one who is scoring them, can you, as a fukushin call gogi? Or do you have to wait for shimpan-shunin to do so.

All shinpan have equal power, even if the job of fukushin and chushin is slightly different.

But if you are raising your flag continually but the other 2 arent, could it be possible that there is a problem with your scoring, and not the other 2?

p.s. im assuming that "sensho" is meant to be "senshu" :smoker:

p.p.s. Jakob --> id give the guy a chance, but if he continued to make the same mistake id gogi it and ask him directly "ippon or not?" and ask him to clearly signal it. Mind you, that should properly be the court judges job... thats part of the reason they are there.

shred_lord
1st May 2008, 10:02 PM
Whoops. Hehe.

Well, thinking back to the incident in which I did call gogi these were very obvious ippon. One of the observers (Don S. - Godan) said that he saw more Ippon than I'd actually scored.

There was a huge grade difference and I think there was some routing for the underdog going on.

JoDuncan
1st May 2008, 10:37 PM
..

There was a huge grade difference and I think there was some routing for the underdog going on.

Which leads to another question...

e.g. shodan vs godan, are shimpan looking for:

Shodan to score at shodan level and godan to score at godan level
OR
Shodan and godan to score at godan level
OR
Shodan and godan to score at shodan level
OR
shodan and godan to score at e.g. sandan level
OR
shodan and godan to score at your level i.e. how can someone rate someone who is better? (disregarding the cuts that are utter horse of course- sure we're all capable of horsing it every now and then)
:)

Probably sounds a bit silly but when practicing this in club shiai levels you're automatically going to be a much harsher critic of the senior's ability no? In actual taikai i guess you wouldn't know the grades or the grades are close together (usually?) so it's less of a big deal.

Sorry for the pure newb questions, i just find this really interesting.

dwez
1st May 2008, 10:59 PM
Funnily enough I was also referreeing at the weekend. I recall one moment when the other two judges scored a point. I saw them react and I was mentally trying to process what they saw with what I saw which seemed to take forever so by the time I realised I had seen exactly the same as them I was convinced everyone watching would just assume I was copying them so I bottled out and indicated I didn't see it.

Am I correct in thinking then, from reading thus far, that that behavior was wholly ridiculous and I should have signalled agreement [in this case] or disagreement however long I took to make that decision?

I did do some good scoring, I believe, but this particular instance was my poorest example.

JSchmidt
1st May 2008, 11:10 PM
Am I correct in thinking then, from reading thus far, that that behavior was wholly ridiculous and I should have signalled agreement [in this case] or disagreement however long I took to make that decision?

You should signalled whether it was a point or not. "Not seeing" should really only be used when your line of sight is blocked (ie wrong side of a kote-attempt) and not for general being sleepy/indecisive/etc.
However, I've done similar and I reckon it's part of the process.

Halcyon
1st May 2008, 11:19 PM
Probably sounds a bit silly but when practicing this in club shiai levels you're automatically going to be a much harsher critic of the senior's ability no? In actual taikai i guess you wouldn't know the grades or the grades are close together (usually?) so it's less of a big deal.
If you're talking about a bona fide shiai -- rather than keiko -- you have to judge the competitors on an equal footing, or at least try to. The scenario of 1 dan vs. 5 dan won't usually happen in individuals, but it occurs now and again in team competitions, say, when some A team encounters some C team. If that does happen, I try to set aside my preconceptions about who I think is "better" and just look for ippon. That's all you can do, really.

Neil Gendzwill
1st May 2008, 11:45 PM
Funnily enough I was also referreeing at the weekend. I recall one moment when the other two judges scored a point. I saw them react and I was mentally trying to process what they saw with what I saw which seemed to take forever so by the time I realised I had seen exactly the same as them I was convinced everyone watching would just assume I was copying them so I bottled out and indicated I didn't see it.That's fine, just call it by your final decision. Obviously you did see it, so signalling that you didn't is not the right thing. Either you agree with the judges, or you thought it was a point for the other guy, or you thought there was no point - make your call.

dwez
2nd May 2008, 12:46 AM
You should signalled whether it was a point or not. "Not seeing" should really only be used when your line of sight is blocked (ie wrong side of a kote-attempt) and not for general being sleepy/indecisive/etc.
However, I've done similar and I reckon it's part of the process.

There was another point where I just didn't see it. I didn't see who scored I played it over in my head and I couldn't separate the sounds to help. I was well placed though and even now I can't picture what happened though the other judges said it was a really nice kote. We'd been told not to say 'didn't see it' but in this case saying it was 'not a point' would have been lieing.

My wife laughed when I said it was hard to concentrate for two minutes but I think it is tough in that situation. It was my own fault as I had taken a break and it took those two matches to get back into the mindset. I can't be the only one that concentrates so much you don't actually see what happens on occassion and everything just goes blank. For the life of me after the competition I couldn't choose a fighting spirit because I couldn't picture the fighting, just the point. Like when videoing a match I only see the video not the match, bizarre.

I really enjoyed it though and hopefully with more practice I'll get better, I even fancy getting my own flags, ha, ha!

tango
2nd May 2008, 02:55 AM
You should signalled whether it was a point or not. "Not seeing" should really only be used when your line of sight is blocked (ie wrong side of a kote-attempt) and not for general being sleepy/indecisive/etc.
However, I've done similar and I reckon it's part of the process.

shimpan is no picnic...
they (we) should be realizing where we are in relation to the players while at the same time realizing where we are in relation to the other shimpan (maintaining the triangle), and IMO we need to recognize where the players are moving or headed so that we will not be out of position when a strike is made.

for me, this can sometimes be really challenging since -- as fukushin, for example -- i'm trying not to wind up moving into "shushin's natural territory" (sometimes this can't be helped, but most of the time, it CAN), and it's when I get to the point "hey, I need to move back over here" that I can (very temporarily) be out of position.

Sensei said it right, .... you really don't want to use the "didn't see" signal.
IMO, better to wave it off, unless the timing is right, the form/posture was right, the sound was right, and the zanshin was right, but you just didn't actually see the contact made ..... right or wrong, I think there are a lot of people who will score ippon in that situation (regardless if the target was actually hit)... I probably would.

Thoughts?

Halcyon
2nd May 2008, 03:23 AM
shimpan is no picnic...
Truer words were never spake.

One major piece of advice from my sensei about doing shimpan that has stuck with me: You can't judge waza that you yourself cannot do. For example, if you can't do suriage waza, how are you going to judge a proper suriage waza ippon? The point being, you'd better improve your own kendo if you want to be a better shimpan.

MAZ77
2nd May 2008, 05:47 AM
Which leads to another question...

e.g. shodan vs godan, are shimpan looking for:

Shodan to score at shodan level and godan to score at godan level
OR
Shodan and godan to score at godan level
OR
Shodan and godan to score at shodan level
OR
shodan and godan to score at e.g. sandan level
OR
shodan and godan to score at your level i.e. how can someone rate someone who is better? (disregarding the cuts that are utter horse of course- sure we're all capable of horsing it every now and then)
:)

Probably sounds a bit silly but when practicing this in club shiai levels you're automatically going to be a much harsher critic of the senior's ability no? In actual taikai i guess you wouldn't know the grades or the grades are close together (usually?) so it's less of a big deal.

Sorry for the pure newb questions, i just find this really interesting.

I was told you shimpan at the rank of the highest competitor. but its never that cut and dry.

D'Artagnan
2nd May 2008, 06:14 AM
We'd been told not to say 'didn't see it' but in this case saying it was 'not a point' would have been lieing

I have also been told the same thing in the past.

However, I think it is total nonesense.

You should use the 'I didn't see' signal, when you did not see the situation clearly enough to judge whether or not it was ippon - that is why it is there.

Whether you didn't see it because the players (that's the english word for senshu btw:wink:) were suddenly in a strange position, or you weren't paying attention or whatever. If you didn't see it, you should signal that you didn't. Otherwise you are refereeing unfairly.

Yes, it's not nice to admit you didn't do your 'job' perfectly (in not seeing what happened) but if you have problems doing that, then you shouldn't really be refereeing shiai.

Shinpan who 'wave-off' points that they actually didn't see, instead of signalling properly is the equivelant of those guys you do ippon-shoubu with that NEVER admit when you have scored on them...

D'Artagnan
2nd May 2008, 06:16 AM
Which leads to another question...

e.g. shodan vs godan, are shimpan looking for:

Shodan to score at shodan level and godan to score at godan level
OR
Shodan and godan to score at godan level
OR
Shodan and godan to score at shodan level
OR
shodan and godan to score at e.g. sandan level
OR
shodan and godan to score at your level i.e.


At an official shiai, you should judge the players at 'ippon' level.

Besides, I have seen loads of 5th dans that have worse kendo than most 1st dans...

Neil Gendzwill
2nd May 2008, 06:44 AM
You should use the 'I didn't see' signal, when you did not see the situation clearly enough to judge whether or not it was ippon - that is why it is there. It's not so cut and dried. Often times you are not in a good enough position to make a solo call, but you do have enough information to make a corroborating call. So if you didn't see the shinai strike the kote, but you saw how the point was made, heard the sound, saw the attitude of the players - that's enough to post a flag, assuming the other shimpan had a good view. The idea is "OK, he must have seen the actual cut, and from my side it sure looked good, so I can agree". Similarly to disagree, maybe you didn't have the whole picture but you had enough information to know you didn't like it. Especially for kote, where so often only one judge has a clear view on that side.

If you truly had no information, were so badly out of the play that you can't contribute then yeah, cross your flags. But you shouldn't have to do that.

MAZ77
2nd May 2008, 06:47 AM
If you truly had no information, were so badly out of the play that you can't contribute then yeah, cross your flags. But you shouldn't have to do that.

Moreover, at that point you should excuse yourself from shimpaning anymore.

tango
2nd May 2008, 06:49 AM
One major piece of advice from my sensei about doing shimpan that has stuck with me: You can't judge waza that you yourself cannot do. For example, if you can't do suriage waza, how are you going to judge a proper suriage waza ippon? The point being, you'd better improve your own kendo if you want to be a better shimpan.

This is SUCH a great point.

bobdonny
2nd May 2008, 06:49 AM
You should use the 'I didn't see' signal, when you did not see the situation clearly enough to judge whether or not it was ippon - that is why it is there.



Well i think technically you should always have seen the action... (kote being the obvious choice of being hidden). If you think you saw the point (and therefore think it was 60/70% ippon) but the actual cut was obscured you should look to the individual that "actually" saw it, if they think it was good then go with it.

I honestly you should never say "did not see". The only time this is acceptable is if you are checking out a hot chick in the stands ;)

R Stroud
2nd May 2008, 07:05 AM
I have also been told the same thing in the past.

However, I think it is total nonesense.

You should use the 'I didn't see' signal, when you did not see the situation clearly enough to judge whether or not it was ippon - that is why it is there.

...snip...

I think it is a matter of how you view the comments about Never Using the "Didn't See It" call when shinpan-ing. The way I like to explain it (and have heard it) is that the Shinpan should avoid the call. It needs to be thought of as a last resort, and that if you are doing a proper job, then you will not have to issue that call. However, there may very well be times when you really did not see the event, including the aforementioned hot chick example, and random brain cramps.

But at the shinpan clinics they want everyone to endeavor to have either indicate "point or no-point" as the call. I think we are all stating the same thing and just posting about emphasis, etc.

R Stroud
2nd May 2008, 07:08 AM
...snip... Especially for kote, where so often only one judge has a clear view on that side.

...snip...

Which gets us to a discussion about where to stand in relationship to the on-going match, and the position of the contestants. To me this is a critical part of how you insure that you can always call "point or no-point".

tango
2nd May 2008, 07:26 AM
Which gets us to a discussion about where to stand in relationship to the on-going match, and the position of the contestants. To me this is a critical part of how you insure that you can always call "point or no-point".

yes, this is exactly what I was talking about the difficulty of the shimpan in trying to watch the two fighting and at the same time, being mindful of the two not-fighting...

as much as possible, i want to try and maintain the "triangle" between the two players...
.........S
......./...\
....../.....\
...X/........\X
.../_______\
...F1........F2

This is when you start getting into trouble, relative to players' positions

.............S
............/..\
.........../....\
(F1)..X/.......\X
(F1).../______\(F2)
F1.........F2.....(F2)


Sometimes just as bad:

...........S
........../..\
......../......\
.....X/.........\X
....../_______\
...........F,F

D'Artagnan
2nd May 2008, 07:33 AM
Moreover, at that point you should excuse yourself from shimpaning anymore.

OK I see, so how do you learn to become a good shinpan, if you quit as soon as you make a mistake?


It's not so cut and dried. Often times you are not in a good enough position to make a solo call, but you do have enough information to make a corroborating call. So if you didn't see the shinai strike the kote, but you saw how the point was made, heard the sound, saw the attitude of the players - that's enough to post a flag, assuming the other shimpan had a good view. The idea is "OK, he must have seen the actual cut, and from my side it sure looked good, so I can agree". Similarly to disagree, maybe you didn't have the whole picture but you had enough information to know you didn't like it. Especially for kote, where so often only one judge has a clear view on that side.

If you truly had no information, were so badly out of the play that you can't contribute then yeah, cross your flags. But you shouldn't have to do that..


I 100% agree, hence you should only use the 'I didn't see' call when you are truly not in a situation that you can make an educated descision (this includes by using the descisions of the other shinpan to help).

Also, I think using the term 'I didn't see' is probably incorrect, as it gives the impression that it should pnly be used when a shinpan doesn't (literally) see the strike. When really it should be used by a shinpan to abstain from the point awarding process, when they feel they are not in a position to fairly judge yukko-datotsu.

Agreed it should'nt happen. But neither should car accidents.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the signal should be used loosely, just fairly...

What I dissagree with wholeheartedly is trainee shinpan being actively told "do not ever use this signal" i.e. do not admit your mistake.

Neil Gendzwill
2nd May 2008, 07:34 AM
as much as possible, i want to try and maintain the "triangle" between the two players...
I'm still confused on the whole triangle thing. I have been told that the latest advice from ZNKR is to maintain the triangle at all costs. So shushin is responsible for moving the triangle, and then you just move when he moves, maintaining your relative position. If you get out of position, that's shushin's fault. I don't like that at all, and I know some of the sensei who have run seminars here agree with me. I like the older directive, where you divide the court in half, and one half belongs to shushin. Then divide the remaining half between the two fukushin. Now move around within your area, while trying to maintain a changing triangle and always having the best view you can within your area. If you find you need to move out of your area to keep your view, time to maybe reset and make a big move to the other side of your area. Anticipating which way the fight will move so that you don't have to move yourself so much is good, too, although I'm still working on that one.

MAZ77
2nd May 2008, 09:21 AM
OK I see, so how do you learn to become a good shinpan, if you quit as soon as you make a mistake?



Seminars my good man, and practice within your dojo.

Koki
2nd May 2008, 10:55 AM
I remember at a shimpan seminar, Hori sensei said that if you don't see it, you'd better stay home.

As far as shodan vs. godan, we had a thread a while ago discussing this. Always judge by the higher standard.

tango
2nd May 2008, 01:10 PM
I'm still confused on the whole triangle thing. I have been told that the latest advice from ZNKR is to maintain the triangle at all costs. So shushin is responsible for moving the triangle and then you just move when he moves, maintaining your relative position. If you get out of position, that's shushin's fault.

I don't like that at all, and I know some of the sensei who have run seminars here agree with me.

I don't agree that it's necessarily shushin's fault. any one shimpan can screw it up, actually -- and it tends to be those of us less experienced guys. in general, all 3 tend to move naturally at the same time...

Some lower ranked players can circle each other very rapidly and this can make it fairly challenging for shimpan to try and just stay in a good viewing position, much less maintain the triangle. ...before you know it, one fukushin could -- conceivably -- be standing in shushin's proper part of the court. ...but...


I like the older directive, where you divide the court in half, and one half belongs to shushin. Then divide the remaining half between the two fukushin. Now move around within your area, while trying to maintain a changing triangle and always having the best view you can within your area.

...exactly. And this is the only way I've been instructed by 7.dans and at least one 8.dan, too. I didn't realize this was an "older" directive.
It's how Tagawa-sensei wanted his court to operate in Cleveland, I can tell you that. ...and frankly, it makes the most sense to me. That said, even with this design in mind, I don't find it terribly difficult to try and maintain the triangle... when you start to realize you're getting close to crossing into shushin's territory (the upper half of the court), then you stick there (if you're still in good position), or you hot foot it around.. this is just my opinion. difficult for me to describe more accurately in words.

There is the odd (but probably not altogether uncommon) situation of where the players circle each other to the point of having an almost north-south alignment (as opposed to east-west at the start), and one of the fukushin has to decide whether he's going to observe the north-south players from the east or from the west. He ought to be paying attention (IMO), and get on the side opposite of shushin, but sometimes, you just don't want to move because you sense something about to happen.... so one fukushin can wind up on the same side as shushin in this alignment and in that case, I'm told the other shushin "assumes the role" of shushin (just for alignment purposes of maintaining the triangle)... it doesn't last long, though.. and once the players tangle to tsubazeriai, then the shimpan seem to naturally kinda work back to a natural position where the 2 fukushin are opposite shushin.

I'm quite certain you're aware of all this...


If you find you need to move out of your area to keep your view, time to maybe reset and make a big move to the other side of your area. Anticipating which way the fight will move so that you don't have to move yourself so much is good, too, although I'm still working on that one.

Yeah, that "big move"... I try to move as quickly as possible without trying to be too much of a moving distraction.

On a side note, one thing I really came to realize at Cleveland is how to deal with tsubazeriai. At first, i kept wanting to keep the two players right in front of me, but i found myself always on the move as they would really move/circle each other from that position... and most of the time, they'd just back out.. and when they backed out, I'd have to move again.

I finally concluded that if I can just keep the two of them in my sight, don't move and just WAIT a minute (second or two), when they start to back out, THEN move to try and get back to keeping the triangle.
(This was really helpful to me towards the end of a very long tournament day)..

as usual, sorry to ramble.
it's a really new aspect of kendo for me and i actually find the topic a little interesting.

shred_lord
2nd May 2008, 04:46 PM
Moreover, at that point you should excuse yourself from shimpaning anymore.
Even shinpan are human. If every shinpan that made a mistake quit, we'd not have any shinpan.

Koki
3rd May 2008, 06:43 AM
Of course, everyone makes mistake. I don’t think that is the problem. The problem is people don’t take it seriously and don’t spend enough time practicing. I remember Satoh sensei (kyoshi hachidan from keisicho) said that even at his level he felt a bit nervous when doing shimpan because a wrong decision could affect kendo of many people. Although shiai is only a part of kendo, by making the decision to raise the flag, you define what an ippon is. Good shimpan = Good kendo; bad shimpan = crappy kendo.

Ultimately it all comes back to your kendo. You can’t be a good shimpan if your kendo sucks. So, do more keiko.