Attacking whilst an opponent is down

[emitbrownne]

I have always been taught to fight Queensbury rules... ie you do not hit a man when he's down (by my family not my sensei), but in Kendo its different.. because its attack attack attack....

I have had in my Kendo life certain oppertunities to strike fallen or falling opponents, and have not.

My question is : is it accepted that a fallen or falling opponent is a target, or should one move to safe distance and await the opponent to resume???

Peoples comparisons between kendo as battlefield, and kendo as a sport welcome. :)

[Mr.Tvola]

I have always been taught to fight Queensbury rules... ie you do not hit a man when he's down (by my family not my sensei), but in Kendo its different.. because its attack attack attack....

I have had in my Kendo life certain oppertunities to strike fallen or falling opponents, and have not.

My question is : is it accepted that a fallen or falling opponent is a target, or should one move to safe distance and await the opponent to resume???

Peoples comparisons between kendo as battlefield, and kendo as a sport welcome. :)

IMHO yes, fallen opponent IS a valid target. If he/she doesn't like it, he/she should remain standing, right? (of course refs should take care of competitiors' health and stop the match if there is a danger of injury). But if you go for correct ippon (no pushing back to the groiund or kicking or whatever), why not?

Few years ago I saw a good situation in ji-geiko. Some European Kendoka fall down and his opponent Japanese Kendo-ka immediately approached to him and disarmed him by striking his shinai away (to the other end of dojo actually) a pointed shiai against his tsuki. I looked more like a police action, it was very fast, I just missed some Clinton-Eastwood-like "don't try to move, son ... " :-)

[emitbrownne]

Cheers Mr.Tvola,
I'm thinking of becoming more agressive/assertive.
I've noticed that a few people have voted without comments... If you could give at least a one liner why you have voted the way you have, I would appreciate it tons. :) :) :D



Many thanks

Paulo (AKA emitbrownne)

[Danny Boy]

Yes, Attack, attack etc etc.

I do that all the time anyway.

[GMason]

Hi Paul,

Why are you thinking of becoming more agressive ??? (just curious really)

I think you certainly attack enough , that is certainly not a problem... In fact personally I think you attack too much .... mainly as you don't give me a chance to do anything, to busy trying to fend off your attacks !!!! :)

Your spirit is fine.... everyone always needs more spirit.

Personaly I think alot of people mistake being agressive with spirit. It is not the samething. I mean if you look at Mark N, he has loads of spirit but you would never say he was agressive ??? or do you mean agressive in context of being more spirited as with Mark N ??

Just asking really hope you don't mind :confused:

[Neil Gendzwill]

The rules allow you one shot so long as you take it immediately. You should take it in shiai. For jigeiko, let the poor fellow up.

[tango]

neil is correct.
you must IMMEDIATELY take the shot... the shimpan will call 'yamae' when someone falls...

i know this is not a hard-and-fast rule (at least, i don't think it is), but you have maybe just a couple of seconds to launch an attack on someone who has fallen..

[mingshi]

YES!

... Recalling one of the pool matches of Ando at the last WKC... He went up against the Hungarian/Australian (ummm got mixed up, but anyway it was during the individual pools). His opponent fell to the ground, and whilst falling down, Ando just kept attacking his Men ..THREE TIMES before the guy sat on the floor... and then Shinpan shouted Yame.

The speed of those 3 cuts was like, your Mom crushing a cockroach at the kitchen holding one of her slippers - it was BANGBANGBANG- fast!!! Whoa.

[Hongsermeier]

I think it depends on the situation. I had the chance earlier this year when a fellow kenshi fell. When he rolled over his men was open. I was about to hit him when I noticed he was in a lot of pain and holding his knee. I backed off. Turned out he dislocated his knee. I felt sorry for him getting hurt but would have really felt like an ass if I would have hit him. :cross_eye

[JSchmidt]

In general, I've found that the judges will shout 'yame' the moment the kenshi starts to go down. (Unlike the japanese comps, where they seem to get a few seconds).
In ji-geiko, I'm too concerned about the health of my opponent to attack. Ji-geiko is not about winning :)

Jakob

[tango]

i've noticed that too, jakob..
the japanese will wait a second or two, but here in the States, that start calling yamae immediately...

[Karaken]

The rules allow you one shot so long as you take it immediately. You should take it in shiai. For jigeiko, let the poor fellow up.

Shiai or not, it's against my principle. Unless my life is in danger, I won't hit a person on the floor.

Center

[wingdelta]

The rules allow you one shot so long as you take it immediately. You should take it in shiai. For jigeiko, let the poor fellow up.

This is what I have been taught...

[Raiza]

Same here. Only difference is I'd back off if my opponent was obviously injured.

[isi]

The rules allow you one shot so long as you take it immediately. You should take it in shiai. For jigeiko, let the poor fellow up.

How would one go about securing a point off an opponenet that has fallen? I guess, assume they have fallen backwards onto their butt:

I see that men is the target, but zanshin...?

[emitbrownne]

Hi Paul,
Why are you thinking of becoming more agressive ??? (just curious really)Hi.. I think assertive and less hesitative are better ways of describing what I'm after, rather than aggressive. I think because I am still not confident with the full scope of whats allowed (in rules) and whats not... I pause.


Your spirit is fine.... everyone always needs more spirit.
Fitness as well.... I need to be fitter and not fatter :D


Personaly I think alot of people mistake being agressive with spirit. It is not the samething. I mean if you look at Mark N, he has loads of spirit but you would never say he was agressive ??? or do you mean agressive in context of being more spirited as with Mark N ??
Probably more spirited is what I'm after.. with confidence in that if I do something, then it will be allowed and correct.
I have no desire to put anyones nose out of shape by say..: Knocking them on thier backside and cutting men... or disarming someone and cutting men... or whatever.

I do not want to get pulled up on my fencing style... (I'm quite anal when it comes to rules)


Just asking really hope you don't mind :confused:
I cant believe you asked such questions on this forum ;) .. oh the shame ;) :D :D :D

Seriously :- if you or anyone else can offer advice.. its appreciated :D

[tango]

How would one go about securing a point off an opponenet that has fallen? I guess, assume they have fallen backwards onto their butt:

I see that men is the target, but zanshin...?

you still have to hit a valid target area as if they had not fallen...
voice, zanshin, etc. etc...

[tango]

Probably more spirited is what I'm after.. with confidence in that if I do something, then it will be allowed and correct.
I have no desire to put anyones nose out of shape by say..: Knocking them on thier backside and cutting men... or disarming someone and cutting men... or whatever.

for what it's worth, i've seen folks at a tournament who have been overly agressive with pushing and have been awarded with a hansoku.

As for knocking people on their backsides, sometimes it just happens and it's not normally your fault. if you simply go in for men and then tai-atari and you knock someone on their ass it shows at the very least that something was wrong with them... their feet, their balance...

it just happens and it's part of kendo.

many years ago, i got into a very bad habit of hitting men and then coming up with my arms.. it put me off balance at the point of tai-atari and I had ZERO zanshin. My sensei cured me of that right smartly. He's a big guy.. probably outweighs me by 50 kilos.. and he eventually, he would let me hit men and then he would take a step forward and crash me backwards.. causing me often to bend straight backwards at horrible angles. I threw my back out once doing that and it cured me of my improper technique.

Just one of those cases where the sensei teaches physically rather than verbally.

[tango]

btw... fwiw.. i voted on this poll for 'attackattackattack!' rather than 'attack unless the judges stop the action' because i think if you wait to see whether or not the judges will stop the action, it will be too late to attack.

just thought i'd voice my opinion on that.

[mystic_kendoka]

im not sure... i mean, it wld be acceptable after all it is him tht fell, but if tht happenned to me (if my opponent fell) i would rather wait then take the opportunity, it wouldn't be seen as shameful if u just attacked and u'd jus be considered lucky... but i dno it jus wldnt seem rite to win a match by taking advantage of such an event...

[m_french]

I think it depends on the situation. I had the chance earlier this year when a fellow kenshi fell. When he rolled over his men was open. I was about to hit him when I noticed he was in a lot of pain and holding his knee. I backed off. Turned out he dislocated his knee. I felt sorry for him getting hurt but would have really felt like an ass if I would have hit him. :cross_eye
Somehow I get the feeling if that was me on the floor .....my head would still be ringing!:beard:

[Shazzanzzz]

In a match, I wouldn't stop until the judge stop me, but I wouldn't hit an opponent on the floor. If i get a chance to hit him while he's falling, then yes, but not WHILE he's on the floor. In ji-keiko, of course, you help the guy up.

[samurai999]

If the match hasn't stopped then I will definitely go for it. I've seen people go for tsuki when their opponent was down.

Tim

[tango]

y'know..i just got finised (re)-watching a video of the 2000 Southeast US Championships..
I was fighting in the shodan-nidan division against a very good player from Miami and at one point, I was moving backwards and then suddenly tried to move forward.. I lost my balance, slipped and went down to one knee.. the guy still made 2 or 3 strikes while I tried to quickly get up. I was glad the shimpan did not stop the match.

I don't blame the guy for attacking me.. I certainly would have done the same.. I was my imbalance that created the opening in the first place, so, being on the receiving end, I had no hard feelings whatsoever about being attack...

all you do is hold that shinai over your head and hope nothin' gets through.

hehe..

[Hongsermeier]

Somehow I get the feeling if that was me on the floor .....my head would still be ringing!:beard:


I wouldn't do that to you Mike. Your Do is a much bigger target. :cross_eye

[m_french]

I wouldn't do that to you Mike. Your Do is a much bigger target. :cross_eye
DOOHHHHH!:beard:

[Kaoru]

Hi!

One day when I am finally in bogu and allowed to spar, and if my opponent fell, I would not try to hit him/her. I know my first reaction would be to stop and make sure they are ok. I don't care if I win or lose as long as my opponent isn't hurt.

Kaoru

[nodachi]

I wouldn't attack while an opponent is down, but I think it depends on your mindset at that moment. If your goal is to win the match and you are in a sporty frame of mind I can understand that hitting at any opportunity is a go. However, if you are thinking more about improving your kendo then hitting an opponent as they go down or are down is not gonna do anything to help improve your skills. Granted, I am sure if I was in a big taikai or international championship or something, I would probably take on the sporty mindset, but since that ain't in the near nor distant future for me :), I would rather let my opponent get up and compose themselves so I can compete against them at their best instead of hitting them in a weak moment. I feel I'd improve more this way.

[Kiki]

I voted "Attack" but I should have voted "If the Judges do not stop the bout, yes." We are taught to strike ONLY if you do it immediately otherwise it's just bad sportsmenship. Honestly, I just can't make myself do it... yet.

[Machismo111]

I may just be an idealist, but I don't believe in striking someone when they're down =). Since Kendo essentially is not about winning, one should be more concerned with an even match rather than if someone slipped and can be hit. Granted it is his fault for messing up footwork. I think it would be best to let them know you *could* have hit them, but back off and let them up. All in the spirit of fair play =).

[tango]

I voted "Attack" but I should have voted "If the Judges do not stop the bout, yes." We are taught to strike ONLY if you do it immediately otherwise it's just bad sportsmenship. Honestly, I just can't make myself do it... yet.


heheh.. .i'm not fast enough to do it ;)

[Hiryu]

If someone goes down, you should percieve the suki and attack immediatly. If you are closing the distance and they are on the ground when you strike, attack. While you are closing the distance and you sense they are hurt, you should hold back. If you slipped during a sword fight, you would be trying to protect yourself, so why not in kendo. THis is not, as someone suggested, a trying to win or loose situation, it is a situation of siezing the opportunity at any time a suki is apparent. Shimpan are supposed to give you a few seconds when this happens, and not stop the match immediatly. Otherwise, when do you stop the match....when they start to go down...what if they recover?
I think we can take advantage of the Suki without what we consider "Bad Western Sportsmanship". Why don't we consider it bad sportsmanship when the bozo can't stay on his feet?

I think we have a hard time letting go of certain "Western" ideas of what is a fair fight.
Example: In 1994 at the Kitamoto camp, Toda sensei was playing against a European, Toda sensei was doing Nito, and was being quite surgical in his attacks. He kept backing the European up with his kamai. Pretty soon, a lot of us were standing around watching, and Toda sensei kept backing this guy up. He finally backed him up to the observers. WHile most of us got out of the way so Toda sensei could maneuver him to the wall, one of the Australian guys pushed the European kenshi forward really hard, destroying the match. When a couple of us called him on this, he said that the guy should not back out of a fight. I think he should have stayed out of a match he was not involved in. His action made it look like a school yard fight where the crowd keeps pushing the kids back in to a fight. His actions also destroyed the advantage that Toda sensei was keeping. If Toda sensei wanted him to attack, he would have backed him to the wall (Which he was doing) and the guy would have had nowhere to go. During kendo practice, I have seen people backed up against walls, out doors, across the dojo etc. The person doing the backing is gaining an advantage and will prove their point when the opponent is against a wall.

[Fantasia]

Example: In 1994 at the Kitamoto camp, Toda sensei was playing against a European, Toda sensei was doing Nito, and was being quite surgical in his attacks. He kept backing the European up with his kamai. Pretty soon, a lot of us were standing around watching, and Toda sensei kept backing this guy up. He finally backed him up to the observers. WHile most of us got out of the way so Toda sensei could maneuver him to the wall, one of the Australian guys pushed the European kenshi forward really hard, destroying the match. When a couple of us called him on this, he said that the guy should not back out of a fight. I think he should have stayed out of a match he was not involved in. His action made it look like a school yard fight where the crowd keeps pushing the kids back in to a fight. His actions also destroyed the advantage that Toda sensei was keeping. If Toda sensei wanted him to attack, he would have backed him to the wall (Which he was doing) and the guy would have had nowhere to go. During kendo practice, I have seen people backed up against walls, out doors, across the dojo etc. The person doing the backing is gaining an advantage and will prove their point when the opponent is against a wall.

I just had this funny mental image of a kendoka who keeps forcing his opponent backwards, out the door of the dojo, across the street, down the lane, and eventually winds up spilling the guy into an ocean somewhere.

[Machismo111]

THis is not, as someone suggested, a trying to win or loose situation, it is a situation of siezing the opportunity at any time a suki is apparent.

As a matter of fact, it is a win or lose situation. The only reason you're looking for a tsuki is to win the match, unless Im mistaken of course. I suppose I should withdraw my previous statement and say that an exception should be made in the case that you might happen to be in the World Championship in the final or something. If that's the case I suppose you should take any advantage you've got. I actually wasn't drawing upon my obviously flawed (sorry no disrespect intended, not [harshtone] either, just sarcasm ^_^) western impression of right and wrong, I was thinking more of the traditional Bushido sense of things...If someone slips in some mud and you stab em in the face, you're not gonna get much respect, I wouldnt imagine. Of couse we don't live in Feudal Japan...But anyways, it's the way it is =). If you wanna back someone up into a corner, right on. I just don't think you're getting anything but a win out of hitting someone when they're down.

[Alicia]

"The rei-gi of Kendo is correct behaviour in all dealings with other people as you work through your daily activities. In Kendo, a failure in this behaviour is a moral failure in the Kenshi's character and training. At the practice level, Kendo is an art form, the purpose of which is to defeat one's opponent in a combat of mind against mind and strength against strength. Without the rules of etiquette from beginning to end, the Kendo becomes merely a bashing of the opponent with the goal to win with any means possible. Kendo with rei-gi remains an art and the opponent is yourself to overcome. With this in mind one is thankful to your partner for having struck you, this exposes your weaknesses and allows you to improve. Thus practice is an exchange of technique and the Kenshi must always be polite to the person giving such a gift. "

this is copied this from some writings on kendo that i have, and it it seems to me that it sums up the attitudes and behaviour you should aim to have while practising kendo. although this refers to keiko rather than shiai, what is more important than learning the art of kendo correctly? without the moral and mental side of kendo, it is nothing more than hitting people on the head with a stick.

many people participate in shiai to win or to improve their kendo. what is the point in winning against an opponent by striking them when they are down? there will be no sense of achievement or feeling that you have overcome them, instead you will be left to doubt the strength of your kendo. surely it is better to allow them to stand up and fight them evenly. that way if you win you deserve to win, or else you have the chance to fight a better kendoka and learn from the experience.

i know i would rather lose and learn and become a better kendoka for it, than win by taking advantage of my opponents bad luck and using no skill. this is not war but kendo, and both people gain from having a proper fight
anyway thats my opinion, i understand others views even if i dont agree with them
alicia

[Machismo111]

*hugs Alicia* My thoughts exactly! :D

[Fantasia]

i know i would rather lose and learn and become a better kendoka for it, than win by taking advantage of my opponents bad luck and using no skill. alicia

So you wouldn't take advantage of an opponent who has less skill than you? Or no skill at all? You would give up your own skills and fight at their level? If you fall, there's usually something you could have done correctly to avoid that, so it's not luck, unless somebody just happens to throw a banana peel under your feet :rolleyes:

I do understand and respect the rest of your arguments, but I don't quite understand why you wouldn't use an opponents weakness against him or her.

[Revenir]

So you wouldn't take advantage of an opponent who has less skill than you? Or no skill at all? You would give up your own skills and fight at their level? If you fall, there's usually something you could have done correctly to avoid that, so it's not luck, unless somebody just happens to throw a banana peel under your feet :rolleyes:

I do understand and respect the rest of your arguments, but I don't quite understand why you wouldn't use an opponents weakness against him or her.

I think this is what it boils down to actually. Whether or not one should beat the opponent because the opponent is substandard is certain areas or because you are superior in areas he is good in. Personally, I wouldn't like to exploit the weakness of my opponent, I'd rather find the area I'm superior in (and he also strong in) and defeat him that way, there is no honour in defeating someone less skilled than you. I do realise however, that shiai is about winning, so it's probably more of a judgement call there.
Winning because of a fluke also does not truly show whether you are better than someone else.

Oh, one last thing, if you're good in something which your opponent sucks at, and your opponent is good in something you suck at(whilst both being at roughly the same standard). And you happen to be better at footwork than he is, then I think it's probably okay to hit him when he's down because both of you will be exploiting the other's weaknesses.

[Machismo111]

So you wouldn't take advantage of an opponent who has less skill than you? Or no skill at all? You would give up your own skills and fight at their level? If you fall, there's usually something you could have done correctly to avoid that, so it's not luck, unless somebody just happens to throw a banana peel under your feet :rolleyes:

I do understand and respect the rest of your arguments, but I don't quite understand why you wouldn't use an opponents weakness against him or her.

How bout this one...Have you ever played someone at something and lost because of some odd technicality? I know I really get angry when stuff like that happens, makes me feel like Ive been cheated =X. So, do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you. This seems like it's getting kinda redundant though. Something like falling isnt really someones weakness, it's more like bad luck. If someone falls every match then it's a weakness, but I dont think anyone's that bad at footwork =).

[Alicia]

How bout this one...Have you ever played someone at something and lost because of some odd technicality? I know I really get angry when stuff like that happens, makes me feel like Ive been cheated =X. So, do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you. This seems like it's getting kinda redundant though. Something like falling isnt really someones weakness, it's more like bad luck. If someone falls every match then it's a weakness, but I dont think anyone's that bad at footwork =).

exactly what i meant
the only times ive seen people fall over has been on wet floor, or tripping over the hem of their hakama, or just stumbling unluckily. saying that someone falls over because of bad footwork may be true in some cases, but generally it is a rare occasion that could have happened to anyone, not the fault of the person that fell, so taking advantage of this is not winning on your own merit

[d3rdson]

Same here. Only difference is I'd back off if my opponent was obviously injured.

We hit about the same time (I kote and he men) and the judge do nothing. Then as I "revelled" in my kote "victory", this guy like men me PHAM-PHAM-PHAM ... 2 seconds later, I found myself kneeled down almost losing my concious and my whereabout ...

Stupid me ...

[emitbrownne]

exactly what i meant
the only times ive seen people fall over has been on wet floor, or tripping over the hem of their hakama, or just stumbling unluckily. saying that someone falls over because of bad footwork may be true in some cases, but generally it is a rare occasion that could have happened to anyone, not the fault of the person that fell, so taking advantage of this is not winning on your own merit
I was thinking about tai-tari (sp?) and the opponent not taking the contact properly, or weakly and then falling from grace :)

[Angry Kid]

I was thinking about tai-tari (sp?) and the opponent not taking the contact properly, or weakly and then falling from grace :)

Uh oh!!! Guess its gonna be a rough Wednesday eh Paul??

[Tipsykitty]

Im new to kendo, but in other martial arts there is no way that i would attack someone down in a tournament. In sparring we would attack 1 time provided we took took down our opponent by guiding their fall to the ground, but then again that isnt Kendo.

I would just find it hard to do it myself. But then again im new at kendo

[emitbrownne]

Uh oh!!! Guess its gonna be a rough Wednesday eh Paul??
Just thinking ahead ;)

[Hiryu]

[QUOTE=Machismo111]As a matter of fact, it is a win or lose situation. The only reason you're looking for a tsuki is to win the match,

It looks like you need to study a little more before you discuss this. i.e. study the difference between "suki" which I was talking about, and "tsuki".
At the national shimpan seminar, you are told that you are to give the kenshi 3-5 seconds as his opponent goes down for the offensive kenshi to take advantage of any suki that he has created. You are told that if you stop the match as the person is going down, you cheat the opponent out of their advantage. This has been discussed at Two (2) American Zone shimpan seminars.

I guess when discussing things like this, it is a foregone conclusion to me that people would not capitalize on a person going down due to an injury, or if they go down and their head bounces etc. But for some reason, the narrower minds here seem to think that anyone who falls over deserves pity, a black and white mentality. To me, Life is filled with grey areas of infinite gradation. If they want pity, they need to get out of MA's.

[Kiki]

July 2002 at the All US Kendo Championships during one of the 1-3 dan division matches Akemine san from SCKO went down. I don't remember how he went down but what I do remember is he never lost his determination. Once he hit the floor his opponent hesitated and in that moment Akemine san reached up and squarely hit is opponent's men. The only thing missing from his attack was a stomp. The judges smiled and called out "yame". We may all have giggled but I think it was an important lesson in keeping alert.

[Machismo111]

My apologies. I was unaware that tsuki and suki were different terms. Kendo wise, at least. Unfortunately I dont see how this relates to it being a win or lose situation =(. Anyway I think what it comes down to is a matter of character. Some of us will, some wont. I suppose I should say my closing point is that while Im not necessarily going to attack and take advantage of their unfortunate fall, Im not going to drop my shinai and embrace them. I believe (or hope for) as fair a match as is possible.

Once again, just for the book, Im very new to kendo and speaking just on ideals ^_^. So don't take me seriously.

[Bayushi-Shoju]

I think you should take every advantage you can get, He may not give you the chance again

[emitbrownne]

Thanks for everyones help,

If you could check out my new thread regarding attacking when you have fallen I would appreciate it.

Paulo

[Grautr]

I have always been taught to fight Queensbury rules... ie you do not hit a man when he's down (by my family not my sensei), but in Kendo its different.. because its attack attack attack....

I have had in my Kendo life certain oppertunities to strike fallen or falling opponents, and have not.

My question is : is it accepted that a fallen or falling opponent is a target, or should one move to safe distance and await the opponent to resume???

Peoples comparisons between kendo as battlefield, and kendo as a sport welcome. :)

Hi,
Im fairly new to kendo so Im not to sure on the rules of engagment. If you have got in close to your oponent is it acceptable to trip them if you get the chance?

[tango]

Hi,
Im fairly new to kendo so Im not to sure on the rules of engagment. If you have got in close to your oponent is it acceptable to trip them if you get the chance?


No.

this is kendo, not judo.

[mystic_kendoka]

theres actually a rule tht says no tripping

[LNGUYEN]

theres actually a rule tht says no tripping

I think you can do a quick osoto gari and send your opponent to other continent. The secret is do not let the shimpan seeing it and just act innocent. :silly:

[Neil Gendzwill]

Grappling techniques while in close used to be used in older style kendo (pre-WW2). Our club still does them if we have a farewell practice for somebody. For that practice (tachi-giri-keiko), the victim has to fight everyone in the dojo, starting with the beginners and ending up with sensei. The normal rules are thrown out, so he might get swept or thrown or shoved into a wall or whatever. The higher the level of the recipient, the tougher it gets. Not all clubs do this, but we're not the only ones.

[Grautr]

Grappling techniques while in close used to be used in older style kendo (pre-WW2). Our club still does them if we have a farewell practice for somebody. For that practice (tachi-giri-keiko), the victim has to fight everyone in the dojo, starting with the beginners and ending up with sensei. The normal rules are thrown out, so he might get swept or thrown or shoved into a wall or whatever. The higher the level of the recipient, the tougher it gets. Not all clubs do this, but we're not the only ones.

Hi again,
My sensei said that you would be disqualified in competition only if your left hand comes off the shinai. Does this mean you can use your right hand to grapple or was he talking about being knocked over and getting up?
We were also told wear our do loose. This was because if we were in battle an opponent could grab the do and pull us off balance easily if it was tight. Were we told to do this for tradition then or could I grab an opponents do in competition?

wassail,

[Neil Gendzwill]

You can't grapple at all. You can't grab your opponent or any of his equipment. There are lots of penalties you can get with your left hand still on the shinai. For example, if when in close you attempt to strip your opponent's shinai using the end of the tsuka (hilt), that's a penalty.

You tie the bottom string of your doh a little loose so that if it rides up above your tare, it will just naturally slip back down and not get stuck. I've never heard that story about tieing armour loosely - I suspect that the opposite is true, you'd want everything as snug as possible without restricting your movement.

[Relic]

Personally, I wouldn't like to exploit the weakness of my opponent, I'd rather find the area I'm superior in (and he also strong in) and defeat him that way, there is no honour in defeating someone less skilled than you.

On the premise of honour, I think there is honour in showing your opponent his weakness by defeating him through it. A hundred times over if you wish.
I think honour is very difficult to weigh here, and I have to admit that it plays a minor role in my kendo, compared to, say, respect.

I think there are a lot of interesting questions that could be posed around this, and I say right away that I do not know of a universally correct answer.

When exchanging techniques with an opponent do you show him respect by exploiting his weakness or by foregoing it and defeating him in an area that is a strength of his?
- In shiai?
- In keiko?
- In ai-kakari-geiko?

Also, if both parties neglect to exploit the other's weakness, how will this affect the match/exercise with respect to
- outcome
- learning experience?
- spirit?

In the way of the sword, is it considered 'good kendo' to forego a killing chance?


the only times ive seen people fall over has been on wet floor, or tripping over the hem of their hakama, or just stumbling unluckily.

A wet floor shouldn't be(!)
Stumbling unluckily is a term I have a hard time understanding. If we settle for a plain, wooden floor without splinters, obstacles, etc, of course it's your own fault if you stumble.

On the subject of tripping over the hem of the hakama (and I think a lot of us have tried that) it could be noted that kendo also encompasses proper care of your equipment, and wearing it properly.
As a sidenote, I was taught that failing to tie your men or do properly could lead to a situation where your opponent is in danger of injuring you, and as such is a lack of respect towards your own safety, his well-being, and the flow of the match/training.

If my opponent slips in his clothing, it usually comes down to either footwork or him not putting the clothes on properly, both of which are a part of kendo (in my opinion). As such, I consider his fall a position he put himself in, a suki to be used - both for pointing out the weakness, and for practicing my cut (or winning).

By the way: when was the last time you saw your sensei trip over his hakama, or his do-himo come undone?
- I know I haven't. :-)

[mystic_kendoka]

For example, if when in close you attempt to strip your opponent's shinai using the end of the tsuka (hilt), that's a penalty.

while we're on the subject...what would happen if the tip of my shinai was other the other persons tsuki-gawa just below the tsuba, and i jerked back, causing him to be disarmed, would it be a penalty? or would the match be stopped, or would i be end up as the only one armed?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm not sure about the penalty part - possibly. Usually this sort of stripping is done by sliding the left hand up a little bit and then using the butt end to hook the shinai out. If you just get tangled up with your shinai behind your opponents and then knock it out of his hands on the way out, I'm not sure what the rule is.

Sometimes the shinai will drop because of a weak grip, or because of a strong uchi-o-toshi. In this case it is the dropper's fault and penalty.

Whenever the shinai is dropped the match is stopped. If the shimpan feels the shinai was dropped because you illegally stripped it, then the match will be stopped immediately and the penalty assigned to you. If the shinai was dropped because it was the opponent's fault, then the shimpan will wait a moment before stopping to allow you the opportunity for one attack. If you don't attack in time or miss your attack, then the opponent will be assigned a penalty. If you successfully attack, then you get a point and the opponent doesn't get a penalty.

[mystic_kendoka]

wat if it wasnt on purpose, like if i went for do, missed, and he lowered his tsuba onto my shinai, and i just yanked up?

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's the part I'm not sure about. Personally I wouldn't assign a penalty and I wouldn't give you a chance to attack but maybe the more experienced shimpan out there would know if there's a hard and fast rule.

[ALI G]

wat if it wasnt on purpose, like if i went for do, missed, and he lowered his tsuba onto my shinai, and i just yanked up?
I dontz tinkz soz.....

[mystic_kendoka]

just bein imaginative... (also lookin for chances of an easy win:evil grin:)

[subygal]

I might be dragging this one out of the archives - but this happened on the weekend at the Nationals - Jeff White (WA) knocked a guy down - cut on men - was told off and lost points - and then did it again!

As one of the sensei said on Sunday at the closing ceremony - there was a lot of moves and improper cuts before even scoring points...wasted energy he said! And you will notice that at the All Japans that stuff rarely happens!

[subygal]

Oh and yeah the Victorian men were doing the same pushing thing too - luckily - they werent from my dojo! Most of them are from a dojo in the outer suburbs that are kinda know for being thugs :(

[samurai999]

I might be dragging this one out of the archives - but this happened on the weekend at the Nationals - Jeff White (WA) knocked a guy down - cut on men - was told off and lost points - and then did it again!

As one of the sensei said on Sunday at the closing ceremony - there was a lot of moves and improper cuts before even scoring points...wasted energy he said! And you will notice that at the All Japans that stuff rarely happens!

i've heard of ppl getting knocked down and getting hansoku (if you cross-check) but this is the first time i've heard of somebody actually LOSING points off of it. You mean the guy got a hansoku?

See ppl get knocked down all the time. I get knocked down all the time by sensei and i sometimes knock other ppl down because they are either improperly positioned, have the improper stance or simply just not prepared for taiatari. Your follow through (i think zanshin) carries you through and runs into them. its not like they intentionally tried to knock them down or something.

[samurai999]

adding to this, if you are in the position of you flat on your back, its really your fault you got there. Its even worse when your let up your focus after the fact. If it were here (norcal or socal), most likely they'd stop the match after the hit and restart it at the center of the court... rarely i have seen a point scored after, but they don't call hansoku.

[subygal]

Nah this one was deliberate - you could see it from the body language and the way he kinda chased him around - I watched as the guy would shake him off - go back to kamae and - then it would happen again - then he pushed - then the guy fell over - and then he cut men - it didnt look like an accident at all...

I understand body-checking is legal - but a few went too far - and it looks like something was said - as there was no where near as much on Sunday.

[subygal]

actually - later on in the afternoon - in the open finals - someone did fall over - and the opponent helped them up - I wish I could remember the guys name - but everyone cheered when he did that....that was my highlight for the weekend :)

[gir]

i've heard of ppl getting knocked down and getting hansoku (if you cross-check) but this is the first time i've heard of somebody actually LOSING points off of it. You mean the guy got a hansoku?

To clarify yes he did get Hansoku. The initial one was the pushing over the line and when the oponent fell and was outside he cut down on men - and from our angle looked to be side of the Men - not on a target area. After getting Hansoku this happened almost imediately again the only difference being it was within the ring. I think the thing is that if you CAN'T score on the cut then why the hell do it? Its not in the spirit of the competition where it was stated that it was not about beating/destroying your oponent but about self improvement. There is a large difference in some dojo's perception of what Kendo is about. Some treat it as a pure sport where getting a point at all costs is valid. And there is another school of thought that you should show your oponent respect. As for the AKC there was almost imediately after this a situation where someone went down in the ring and when the call to halt was made instead of cutting (And there was no attempt to make the cut once he went down - I think this was Nick Bennet who played excellently) actually put a hand down to help the oponent. There was a sizeable cheer at this as this shows the correct spirit for the games.

[Kenzan]

Seems like a case of Kendo slop to me.
Why on Earth would someone ever be proud of or want of such a point awarded is beyond me..

[Andoru]

I don't remember that match subygal described but I know that in the kyu grade there were one or two individuals who used body-checking tactic in order to get jogai on the opponent.

Sumo kendo never wins and it's fugly to boot!

[gir]

I don't remember that match subygal described but I know that in the kyu grade there were one or two individuals who used body-checking tactic in order to get jogai on the opponent.

Sumo kendo never wins and it's fugly to boot!
Too true. There was a fair ammount of it - more so on the first day but it was Kyu and Open that were culprits. The match Subygal was refering to was during the Open individual. I think it was near the semi's on court B

[subygal]

Sumo kendo never wins and it's fugly to boot!

Thats what we called it too :grin:

[gir]

Sumo kendo never wins and it's fugly to boot!

Considering there seems to be an flaw in how the topic of "shoving" is handled maybe we should get a sumo guy, put him in bogu and put him in the comp. He comes up and sumo's the people out. No problem..... he would only need to know enough kendo to ward off a single blow before they would be on their arses off the floor.:D

[Kingofmyrrh]

It's true that sumo kendo is ugly, but to use that cheap-and-nasty phrase, don't get bitter, get better. Sumo kendo only tends to be effective against people who are quite inexperienced at kendo (I used to be a sucker for it but can't remember having too much trouble with it in recent years). Just one more reason to practice more!

[Andoru]

On the plus side I took notice of the hansoku that was given to the shover in the open individuals. The shinpan did pay notice so good on yas!

I totally agree with King about "don't get bitter, get better". I used to be a victim to sumo kendo (being a midget and all) but with better positioning skills it's not effective enough to worth that effort on me anymore. ;)

[gir]

It's true that sumo kendo is ugly, but to use that cheap-and-nasty phrase, don't get bitter, get better. Sumo kendo only tends to be effective against people who are quite inexperienced at kendo (I used to be a sucker for it but can't remember having too much trouble with it in recent years). Just one more reason to practice more!
Quite correct. However, when you get Kote to the Mengame its hard to avoid. Though. Learning the Quick sidestep isn't a bad option. ;)

[Spendius]

I think doing a good taiatari should not be confused with "sumo kendo". Taiatari is a proper kendo technique, it is be used to create suki, and then make ippon (destroy kamae, create opportunity for hiki waza, make opponent go back...). If I'm thrown on the floor on taiatari, it is because I do something obviously wrong, don't commit in my attack, and have serious balance problem. I have been thrown on the floor a few times to demonstrate why "mohamed ali" bouncy footwork is not efficient in kendo (can't speak of shiai experience, since I have none, but I would go for ippon if my opponent was on the floor, and would expect the same from him if I were sweeping the shiaijo with my butt.)

[Gideon]

I'm trying to figure out just how my kendo would stay to form if the person was lying on their back. Jouburi? Can you ippon off that? :P

[gir]

I think doing a good taiatari should not be confused with "sumo kendo". Taiatari is a proper kendo technique, it is be used to create suki, and then make ippon (destroy kamae, create opportunity for hiki waza, make opponent go back...). If I'm thrown on the floor on taiatari, it is because I do something obviously wrong, don't commit in my attack, and have serious balance problem. I have been thrown on the floor a few times to demonstrate why "mohamed ali" bouncy footwork is not efficient in kendo (can't speak of shiai experience, since I have none, but I would go for ippon if my opponent was on the floor, and would expect the same from him if I were sweeping the shiaijo with my butt.)
Not confusing tai-atari with what we were seeing. What we were seeing was from tsubazeriai, pushing to the edge and raising Kote to men and shoving in the face to push over the line. I think even an imbecile could tell the difference between those :D

[MrChow]

There was a lot of blatant shoving for jogai at the Australian Nationals for sure, I was nearly a victim of it during one of my matches. Definitely not taiatari. Imho if you're gonna shove for jogai at least cut or look like you're cutting!

[Thunder]

During Keiko one evening, my opponent fell, and I stopped and reached down to help him up...we continued until the rotation was over.

Our sensei came over and told me that I was at fault...I did not attack when he was down. He mentioned that you have a split second to land a men on a fallen opponent before the judges would halt the match. (Also a split second to defend if you can)

If the judges were to see you stop, and help your opponent you would lose a great deal of recognition for your Zenshin for the rest of the match.

It doesn't happen often...but next time Im faced with a fallen opponent--MEN!

[gir]

During Keiko one evening, my opponent fell, and I stopped and reached down to help him up...we continued until the rotation was over.

Our sensei came over and told me that I was at fault...I did not attack when he was down. He mentioned that you have a split second to land a men on a fallen opponent before the judges would halt the match. (Also a split second to defend if you can)

If the judges were to see you stop, and help your opponent you would lose a great deal of recognition for your Zenshin for the rest of the match.

It doesn't happen often...but next time Im faced with a fallen opponent--MEN!
When the call of yame is made what is the point of cutting? Besides. the side futon of the men isn't a scoring point. PLUS there was no kiai or correct footwork involved. Noone thought less of the individual who helped the kendoka up after yame was called, in fact he went on to win the championships, NO-ONE questions his zenshin. A cut that is not executed correctly and can NEVER score a point is wasted, and if made in a dubious manner you'd almost call it cowardly. There is no honor or Zanshin in hitting an competitor who is out of the shiaigo and on the ground.. Its not the act of someone who practices Kendo at the Kenshikan - indeed a lot of the dojo in Aus I would imagine.

[JSchmidt]

There is no honor or Zanshin in hitting an competitor who is out of the shiaigo and on the ground.. Its not the act of someone who practices Kendo at the Kenshikan - indeed a lot of the dojo in Aus I would imagine.

It's the act of many top Japanese competitors, though...but I guess they have no honour or zanshin :)

[gir]

When the call of yame is made what is the point of cutting? Besides. the side futon of the men isn't a scoring point. PLUS there was no kiai or correct footwork involved. Noone thought less of the individual who helped the kendoka up after yame was called, in fact he went on to win the championships, NO-ONE questions his zenshin. A cut that is not executed correctly and can NEVER score a point is wasted, and if made in a dubious manner you'd almost call it cowardly. There is no honor or Zanshin in hitting an competitor who is out of the shiaigo and on the ground.. Its not the act of someone who practices Kendo at the Kenshikan - indeed a lot of the dojo in Aus I would imagine.

I think you had to be there and seen it to understand.

That being said it was a great event despite the Sumo-Kendo

[gir]

It's the act of many top Japanese competitors, though...but I guess they have no honour or zanshin :)
Comes down to what you're taught I guess :)

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I think you need to understand what being a samurai (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Samurai) is about.

[A Wadlow]

As long as the clock is running and the shinpan are not stopping it, put the boot in. But it still follows those general rules I guess like not hitting them if they have their back to you, not because of honour or anything like that but because it hurts and doesn't score.

I have never seen someone score against someone on the floor. Any youtube vids?

[dwez]

I was only just talking about this, as at a Watchett Seminar I ended up stumbling to my knees into the queue waiting to fence. I was fencing Peter Wells at the time and he was right on top of me as I picked myself up off the floor. Somehow I had enough zanshin to parry his blow as I turned round/stood up - something I was particularly proud of. I may have got in a poor men following it and he called the fence to an end.
It was certainly a lesson to be learned.

What will be unacceptable next hitting people just as they turn around? Sure if someones pushing people over to capitalise on their fallen position it's a poor show, but if it does happen then you have to press that advantage if you are aware of it.

[A Wadlow]

Sure if someones pushing people over to capitalise on their fallen position it's a poor show

I disagree. First shiai and jigeiko are very different. Shiai will be more physical, if someone looks like they are having balance problems using taiatari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiatari) as part of a technique with the bonus of knocking them over is the same as pushing someone out of the shiaijo, they my drop the shinai for example. But hulking it in like a oaf and trying to barge your way over the opponent is stupid and you will get a hansoku.

Look for 2.38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu06p0Or1P0

Yang in the air and Seikei giving him a little horizontal help

[Kingofmyrrh]

I was only just talking about this, as at a Watchett Seminar I ended up stumbling to my knees into the queue waiting to fence. I was fencing Peter Wells at the time and he was right on top of me as I picked myself up off the floor. Somehow I had enough zanshin to parry his blow as I turned round/stood up - something I was particularly proud of. I may have got in a poor men following it and he called the fence to an end.
It was certainly a lesson to be learned.

I used to love fencing with Wellsy, learned so much from him. I remember there was a period when I had a habit of really raising my arms after striking men, which leaves you in an unstable position. He always used to point this out by knocking me to the floor and then pinning my neck to the ground with his shinai while grinning down at me. As long as I believe that they're not being "mean" (for lack of a better word) I don't really mind how much people whack me while I'm down.

[The great I AM]

I personally don't do it because I want to score on my opponent through me breaking his kamae, his spirit, decent timing, nice technique, or whatever, not because he tripped up in unlucky circumstances.

That being said, I'm not against it at all, not by a long way. I think if you manage to hit someone when thy're down and score from it (I've seen a few, but not many) then it shows alertness, flexibility and concentration. Nothing wrong with that at all in my book.

[ace]

i remember once i was fighting somone and they fell over and i didn't hit them after the fight my sensei really chewed me out about it he said it is dishournable to your a opponent because your more a less saying i dont need to take advantage of your weakness i can beat you anytime i want, so since then if shinpan have not called yame i attack i even did it in the australian championships on the weekend.

[JSchmidt]

i remember once i was fighting somone and they fell over and i didn't hit them after the fight my sensei really chewed me out about it he said it is dishournable to your a opponent because your more a less saying i dont need to take advantage of your weakness i can beat you anytime i want, so since then if shinpan have not called yame i attack i even did it in the australian championships on the weekend.

Holy lack of punctuation, Batman!

[ace]

you like that wait till you see my spelling

[dwez]

But hulking it in like a oaf and trying to barge your way over the opponent is stupid and you will get a hansoku.


That's whatt I was meaning. So in fact we agree which is a nice happy fluffy cloud scenario.

Attacking whilst an opponent is down - yes.
Knocking someone over in taiatari cos you notice they're office balance - yes.
Hulking it in like an oaf - no.

These are what I would accept against myself although I'd probably only ever have the wherewithal to do the first one.

[Paburo]

i think it depends. i wouldn't attack an opponent on the floor normally, if the opponent shows the least of fair play and honour.... my sensei taught me not to abuse fallen opponents. i've seen him in shiai not doing it and i personally think this is the right thing to do. he told me you are expected to win in shiai, but you are not expected to win in shiai by any means.

now if i cross swords against a bulldozer beast, the type who tries to push you jogai, and hits you on your arms purposedly to make them stiff, abuses children and women, then you can bet i would do my very best to nail him on the floor renzoku waza if he falls down! (or while he is standing, for all that matters...) :D