Bad attitude

[Sasaki]

Hello guys...
So I've been doing Kendo for several months now, and there is one thing at my dojo bugging me.
It's my sempai. Whenever our sensei tells us to practice together with the bogu-kendoka (i'm not in bogu yet) this sempai makes some annoying gestures, like, he acts annoyed, shakes his head... "uh..." You know...
He just simply seems to hate the beginners, because they "slow him down" in his Kendo. So basically he just thinks of himself and disrespects us Kohei. His whole aura in jigeiko is messed up too... He's like a mad demon trying to kill his opponent...
I've been planning to tell my sensei about his messed up attitude. (or even tell him in person)
Because it's just not fun to practice with someone who doesn't want to.

What should I do?

[Badger]

When you practice with him show you are better than him by not letting that effect you and maybe smile when he hits you when you are in armour to show that you are enjoying yourself?
Hopefully that makes sense and isn't complete nonsense.

[Kapplow]

Drop a deuce in his men jk..

Don't let it bother you too much. People like him drop out of Kendo eventually.

[MikeW]

Well that happens sometimes.. as a senpai he should be learning more responsibility but it seems he isn't ready for that or can't accept it. Unfortunately it impacts you but I wouldn't really worry too much about it. As Badger said just try to concentrate on doing your best kendo despite the distraction. If it gets to a point where you are starting to feel like dropping out because of him you might try talking to some of the other beginners to see if they feel the same way. If they do then perhaps you can talk to the sensei but I would try to deal with it by just working on your own kendo first.

[Gideon]

Hard to say not being involved and all, but he's still your sempai and I'm sure there might be a couple things you could learn from keiko with him.

[samurai80]

Hey, we all run in to guys like this. Fuck 'em. Badger was right on. Smiling will totally piss them off, and it makes you feel good because you didn't do anything inappropriate. Your sempai has a common problem that can be found in many dojo. There are many more sempai, and sensei that are good people. You can stick around, and possibly let it bother you 'till you don't feel like doing kendo anymore, or if you have another dojo within a reasonable distance, you might want to see what the atmosphere is like there. You should always be able to enjoy kendo, and if someone is preventing that, you might want to go somewhere else. Talking to your sensei is an okay idea, but if he doesn't do much about it, what then?

[Reiver]

As in all walks of life, in kendo you will encounter individuals with whom you would rather not practice because of bad attitude or bad kendo (later on you will learn that these two things are pretty much the same) on the part of the other person etc, etc. It is extremely difficult when there is an individual who seems to like nothing better than tread on others desire to learn.

You've probably been told or thought of other solutions, such as find another dojo, but that may not be an option if you want to continue.

Does the sensei condone or encourage the sempai's behaviour? Does the sempai seem to beat everyone up, or is it just you? Is there someone in the dojo in whom you can confide who has some influence in the dojo? Is there a high number of beginners who quit after their first encounter with the sempai? Answering these questions will help decide your course of action. In kendo you can expect to be knocked about, but on the other hand it's not right to be mistreated either.

In the longer run, if the sempai's attitude doesn't change, his kendo will stand still, and you will ultimately surpass him. That's the ultimate solution. There are awkward individuals out there, and learning to deal with them in kendo means that you are learning from them.

Kendo is about persistence and the development of human dignity, and when taken in that light everyone can be a teacher, including yourself!

[turboyoshi]

this sempai makes some annoying gestures, like, he acts annoyed, shakes his head... "uh..." You know...
He just simply seems to hate the beginners, because they "slow him down" in his Kendo.

Couple things. Is it clear that he's really getting upset with the beginners or maybe he's upset and mistakes he's making? Do you really know what's going on in his head or are you possibly misinterpreting his behavior?

I ask because if it seems that obvious to to, I'd think a sensei would have also noticed it and maybe had a private word with this sempai.

The other thing, like others have said, you'll meet lots of folks like this throughout your life, and not just in kendo. Learning how to deal with them in the safe environment of the dojo can help in other areas of your life also. So, just view it as a training opportunity.
Like my daddy always said, "it builds character." Damn, I just hate it when he's right.

sean

edit - damn you reiver. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Aside from giving off a bad vibe, does he do anything to disrupt your practice? I assume he's just acting as a target dummy for you. So long as he lets you hit him, disregard all the other stuff. You're getting what you need from him.

[tango]

I agree...
there's really not much else you can do... it's either practice or don't practice...

[Masahiro]

. .. ...sempai makes some annoying gestures, like, he acts annoyed, shakes his head... "uh..."
That's not "bad attitude", it might be "discouraging" but it shouldn't affect you. Let's see how you might actually react when you've been telling your kohai to do something the correct way for the Nth time and they still do wha they want to do. Of course this may or may not be what you are doing. But being sempai isn't easy.


disrespects us Kohei.
Respect, reiho is more than just outward appearance, what would you do to something who just doesn't let you know what you are doing wrong. Is that disrespect? looking down at you?


His whole aura in jigeiko is messed up too... He's like a mad demon trying to kill his opponent...
Would you rather him be a teddy bear that smothers you with love and fuzziness? It's kendo, what else should be do?


I've been planning to tell my sensei about his messed up attitude. (or even tell him in person)


yes do tell your Sensei, but what are you going to do say if your sensei was the one giving the bad attitude? Don't answer, that's a rhetorical question. Just think about it.

Kendo is more than just reiho, shinai kendo, and talking about doing kendo.

[Tsunemori]

When I had just "graduated" to junior's grade and was allowed to wear bogu, I was extremely happy to be able to practise with all the more serious seniors. We'd keep rotating and I'd often be paired with high kyu grades, and at times, some dan grades. That just felt awesome.

This one time though, I had a jigeiko with a dan grade, and he pretty much beat the poop out of me. I was absolutely helpless. He was aggressive, was hitting really hard, and would pretty much just run right into me when he attacked, and I of course was just getting pushed around and bullied. It was absolutely humiliating, and frustated the butt out of me. I nearly cried on the way home, just because it felt so "unfair". For a while I really disliked this guy, I just thought that he was just being needlessly mean to someone who wasn't even graded.

Months later, I fought the same guy again, but that time I managed to hold myself better. Perhaps he was holding back, I don't know, but I'm guessing I've gotten a bit better, or at the very least I could control my emotions better. I still lost (for obvious reasons), but I felt like I did my best, so I was content. After the training, to my surprise, he went up to me and said "hey! Good shiai today!" and gave me a thumbs up.

Ever since then, he's always helped me with my Kendo. Footwork, posture, shiai tactics, he'd occassionally come up to me randomly and give me advices. So I was completely wrong about him being a "mean bully". Maybe he had a bad day that time and was channeling his frustation through training. Maybe he noticed I had a bit of an attitude and wanted to fix that. Maybe he simply wanted to "kill my spirit" to train my mental Kendo. But in the end, it was really my fault for judging him wrongly based on just a few minutes of being smacked around. I do admit he can be pretty harsh in shiai, but he really is a cool guy who does like helping people.

My point is, don't be too quick to judge people, I think sometimes it's good to find an obstacle in your training. Everyone is different, some people are extremely nice in and out of the dojo, but there are people who play really rough and pushy during shiai. I don't mind that so much because, you know, those are probably the kind of people you'll fight in competitions.

I have brought up this very same subject to my teacher, about getting frustated during a fight with specific people. They seem to just "bully" me to the point where I can't even concentrate and perform right. His advice?

"Worry about your own Kendo, not theirs".

Which is what a couple of people have been saying in this thread, so I fully agree with that. Just forget about it and have fun!

[enkorat]

meh...

Sometimes sempais are supposed to be tough and mean. I am sometimes.

I thought my sempais were when I was just starting, many years ago. Now I can see that they were just trying to get me used to doing Kendo.

I face mad speed demons often during practice, and I've learned to smile and laugh when I do. It wasn't always like that. But what are we supposed to do if we find ourselves facing a mad demon opponent trying to kill us? Raise our hands and complain to the ref?

Do your best to throw his attitude back in his face. Scream in his face to show him you're not afraid. The loudest scream you can muster. Scream in his face to force him to pay attention to you. Make yourself matter. Attack him with everything you have to try to break his ego. Make him lose.

Its either that and win, or lose and give up and go home.

[Sparv]

Maybe he had a bad day that time and was channeling his frustation through training. Maybe he noticed I had a bit of an attitude and wanted to fix that. Maybe he simply wanted to "kill my spirit" to train my mental Kendo.

Maybe he had his own things to work on, like becoming a true badass in shiai, showing strongs uchis and zanshin?

Being beaten up by other kenshis is part of the course!

[samurai80]

Sasaki, please take into account all the different opinions here. Yes, being tough with people is perfectly normal (and usually helps), but from the way you describe the person, I can definitely picture the genre of kendoka he falls into. To me, it sounds like our friend Sasaki is dealing less with the drill sargeant type of sempai, and more with the "This is a waste of my time, I'm hot shit, I should be doing jigeiko with only san dan and up kendoka" types. I mentioned an instance in the "Nurturing the newbs" thread where I caught a couple of guys stepping out of rotation, and trading places in rotation so they could avoid practicing with a few mudansha who were down the line from me. I think this might be the type of guy we are talking about here. Hopefully, Sasaki has access to more than a few yudansha, whom can help him with his kendo. Even if they aren't as high of a rank as the guy in question, he'll probably learn more from someone he can respect. If the person we are talking about truely behaves like I just mentioned, I think Sasaki has every right to be offended, but how he handles it is what is most important. Don't let anyone stop you from doing kendo, Sasaki...hang in there.

[Big One]

Then what should the Sempai do, kiss the Kohai ass before whipping it?

If he doesn't hurt, shove, or playing bad kendo, then I think he is ok. You just have to find the way to get it back.

[samurai80]

What should he do? Ummm...fix his shitty attitude. Sasaki isn't even in bogu yet. He doesn't even recieve ass kickings. I mean, if it annoys you to help new people, should you really even take up the task? Should you even do kendo? Hell...I'm as asshole, but its to people who deserve it. If anything, I enjoy helping others, and I always learn things about my own basics that I probably wouldn't have noticed if I had ignored newbies. It feels good to know that you helped someone on their path through kendo, but I don't think I would be too proud of myself for bullying someone, or turning them off from kendo. In the dojo, out of the dojo...there is a way to treat people. Rei isn't something for newbies, it is something for all of us. I (try) to show an equal amount of respect to everyone I practice with. Would you roll your eyes at your sensei? No? Then why would you roll your eyes at a new guy/gal?

[ewanwalker_2001]

Hey, you don't practice in Aberdeen do you?...

Sigh... I probably shouldn't have said that. I have come across those who are almost exactly as you describe in my club over time. The advice you have been given above is the way that I went about with dealing with these people. What I would add is that your sensei will probably definately already know what this person is like so speaking with your sensei might not have the desired effect; sensei won't stop this person, in fact your sensei might tell you something profound such as that given by Tsunemori.

What I have found is that respect isn't always given even within a dojo. It is earned in some cases. With similiar people to those you describe I have maintained a positive learning attitude and set about improving my Kendo. Over time these people have come to respect me as I became more diligent and skilled, shall we say. I see the same person berate a beginner in the same way that I was once treated and know that over time that beginner will too earn the respect of the hard assed sempai.

Don't worry about this person and strive to become better than this person in your way. A more positive way.

[Masahiro]

...I caught a couple of guys stepping out of rotation, and trading places in rotation so they could avoid practicing with a few mudansha who were down the line from me.
I really hate it when I play with the mudansha, and some of them hit me "anywhere" else but yukodatosu bui. I will gladly step out of the rotation to avoid these type of people. Of course, i know that's not what you are referring to here, but i really really hate it when i get on the knuckles. :confused2


he'll probably learn more from someone he can respect.

true enough!

p.s Don't ever change your avatar, it's gotta be one of the cuttest Akita. (unless i've mistaken) either way he/she is damn cute.

[xvikingx]

i really really hate it when i get on the knuckles

If your getting hit on the knuckles it's most likely your fault. Learn how you open kote properly and that won't happen. Don't don't point your finger at the new guys and step out of rotation.

[Masahiro]

No, and no.

[enkorat]

Hello guys...
this sempai makes some annoying gestures, like, he acts annoyed, shakes his head... "uh..." You know...

He just simply seems to hate the beginners, because they "slow him down" in his Kendo.

So basically he just thinks of himself and disrespects us Kohei.

His whole aura in jigeiko is messed up too... He's like a mad demon trying to kill his opponent...

I've been planning to tell my sensei about his messed up attitude. (or even tell him in person)

Because it's just not fun to practice with someone who doesn't want to.

What should I do?

Well, you know, when I first started kendo, I had a sempai who was really tough as nails. Every time I would do something wrong she should make a point to lecture me after practice in full few of everyone else for 5-6 minutes. As a beginner, I made a lot of mistakes, and so I was yelled at every practice, pretty much.

At least I wasn't yelled at by the sensei.

It wasn't easy, but she was right.

Sure, there are plenty of people who you run into who think working with beginners is a bore, or a chore, or an annoyance. Yes, I know that on paper and theoretically sempais are supposed to jump for joy when we work for beginners, but yea, we're human too. And there are plenty of "old school" people in kendo who don't really think that training beginners is by encouragement or positive reinforcement. For those kinds of people, its not "yay beginner, lets hug!", its more like "prove to me you're worth my time".

Kendo is like life. Kendo is struggle. At every point in the game there is some sort of struggle going on. Whether its being a beginner and making yourself noticable to the sempai, or being higher up and struggling to find time for yourself.

Its a struggle when you fight a sensei in competition, and he looks bored and uninterested behind the men and you realize he doesn't consider you a worthy opponent, so you get all upset and then you end up losing because at that split moment you doubted your ability and he picked you off, only to realize on the way home and from talking to him later that the "bored look" is a gameplan and a strategy.

What can you do? Simple, become better, become stronger. Not just muscles but strengthen your will and determination. Realize that his "bad attitude" is breaking your will and spirit to fight. To that end, he's probably doing it on purpose. Heck, if I could beat someone by breaking their will to fight by looking annoyed and bored, I'd do it in a second. It would make things easier.

This is a test of your will and spirit. It may not be the intention of your sempai, or it may be deliberate. It doesn't really matter what his intentions are. What matters is you. Specifically, his behavior impacts you this way, so for you, it is a test of your will and spirit to fight. I run into this all the time, so you might as well start working on it now....

[xvikingx]

No, and no.

You're going far with that attitude.

[turboyoshi]

p.s Don't ever change your avatar, it's gotta be one of the cuttest Akita. (unless i've mistaken) either way he/she is damn cute.

It's a shiba inu. Akita pups look more like this (http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:nW7PgjUx0XkJ:www.akita.us/akita_puppy_1.jpg)

Both japanese bred and from the spitz family so they're related breeds. Vastly different in temperament though. Sorry for the slight hijack.

sean

[James]

What Neil said, if you are not in Bogu yet and he is acting as motodachi then he may well be bored, but that is not your concern; as long as he is letting you hit him you should be concentrating on improving your own kendo.

At any time, for what ever reason you feel emotional disturbance, exhaustion, confusion, plateau - it is a good time to focus on one practical thing that you know needs fixing about your own kendo and work on it. Good to have an idea of what you are going to work on before going to the dojo.

As far as respect goes, what have you done so far to earn his respect? was it an excellent men cut? Was it your spirit in kakarigeiko? Is it your posture? In martial arts there is such a high turnover of people joining and quitting that it is hardly worth learning someone's name until they have been in the dojo a year and have a reasonable chance of continuing.

As far as criticizing your sempai to your sensei, I am always AMAZED at this kind of attitude. Unless he is bullying you (which if you are not in bogu is unlikely) and there are no safety issues, there is no need to even venture an opinion about someone else's attitude, you probably don't have time because you are concentrating so much on improving your own kendo, right?

I am not dismissing what you are saying, maybe the guy is an asshole, but believe me when you are in Bogu people are going to get a whole lot more ... interesting.

If anything is sapping your enjoyment in the dojo the best thing to do IMHO is to fall back to concentrating on a basic technical thing to work on, and work through it. Work hard and you'll be handing him his ass on a plate.
Gambatte ne.

[Bokushingu]

from my experience of being a kohai and dealing with snobish & sometimes really unfriendly Sempai, I just try to ignore them. One Sempai, that i do not have a good relation with, would walk away when my turn to keiko came. Once, I waited patiently for 20 mins in his line only to have him walk right off. after this happened quite a few times, i stopped coming to his line & he believed that i had become arrogant & disrespectful towards him. But I told him, "what do you want me to do? I don't want to waste valuable practice time. i know you don't want to train with me so i didn't bother going in your line."

After a big blow out fight, we were able to make peace. I spoke my words & he did the same. Of course this conversation took place out of the dojo & we both were careful not to go too far: no profanity, threats or personal space violations, just good old fashioned yelling & a hand shake afterwards. :)

[H.Sandsleth]

I wouldn't leave the line or rotation, it is really bad etiquette. If someone does that to you, just hang in there, and the sensei will sooner or later pick up on it.

[Bokushingu]

My wife says that in Japan the Sempai/Kohai relations is a lot deeper than someone just being a higher rank. She sees & believes the meaning of it has been distorted here in the Us Dojos to benifit some. she was just explaining to me that a sempai is like a big sister or brother that closely guides you throughout life or your career. And because the Sempai does this the Kohai dedicates & trust their well being to the Sempai.

She was saying a Sempai may be stern and strict but they don't mistreat you because they care about you. She told me that the realtionship she has with her friend Emi is a more than 20 year Sempai/kohai relationship.

[Sasaki]

First of all... Thanks for the comments and nice words.
Though I think that some of you seemed to misunderstand the situation. I am not whining about getting yelled at. It's not about the strictness either.
That sempai is, like Samurai80 already said the "This is a waste of my time, I'm hot shit, I should be doing jigeiko with only san dan and up kendoka" kendoka. Don't mistake him for a juvenile-newbie-bullyier or for that strict-drill-sargeant. For example, this is what happened yesterday.
We were rotating and he got to be with a newbie. He looked pretty disappointed and angry. The teacher gave us instructions on what waza we should do now.
He mentioned a waza for advanced people.
You know what happened? Since we always change the waza types everytime we rotate, he got pissed off. That night we had all done the basics of Kendo to that point. That's when he got a Kohei without bogu as his motodachi.
After that, the sensei took us out of the rotation. After 2 rounds or so he put us in again.
What happened? Sempai made angry gestures again.

[Ookami7]

Just some things to think about here as well. Everyone has posted pretty good advice!!!! I am helping to teach Jr High Kendo in Japan. Now when I practice w/ my students, and I make a mistake or waza didn`t exactly turn out the way I wanted it to. I will give myself crap about it, sometimes out loud. Or shake my head, I`m not directing it at my students, but the impression could be that way. I also do push my students a little bit harder in Jigeiko time. I use a lot of different kamae, 1 to give them experience recieving and how to deal with it. 2. to improve my own forms and increase my knowledge. So could be misreading the situation. Again its hard for us to comment w/ out seeing the actual situation! Anyways just roll with it as best as you can. Alot of the suggestions on here are good one. Good luck and no matter what, keep enjoying Kendo and the path that it takes you on!!!

[enkorat]

Eh...

Then he's a jerk. Like I've said in other threads, we can't control who starts kendo, so sometimes we have to deal with people we don't particularly like.

This is a mitorigeiko situation really. Our senseis always tell us (particularly beginners) to watch our sempais for both what to do correctly, and what not to do correctly.

Since this is obviously an example of what not to do correctly, its something you will have to remember. When you are a little more experienced, you'll probably find yourself in a similar situation, and you will remember this one, and what not to do.

Unfortunately, if your sensei is Japanese, he may be very much aware of what is happening, but isn't actually interfering. Its a little bit of a culture shock, particularly if you're from a Western background where things are a little more "zero tolerance", but he could be adopting a hands off attitude precisely because this is a learning experience for both parties involved. An important one, if not particularly pleasant one.

[James]

...seemed to misunderstand the situation.... Sempai made angry gestures again.
I don't think the situation is misunderstood, you have explained it clearly.

What I don't understand is why you let it bother you? This person obviously has some frustrations and not the etiquette to mask them. That's his problem; plus you may not have enough knowledge to judge his situation.

Just make the decision to not let it cloud your enjoyment of practice.
Use it as a positive reminder of how much dignity you conduct yourself with compared to him.

Choose a teacher who you consider a good role model, and spend your practices thinking about what you can learn from him/her instead.

[ben]

If someone is an arrogant Arschloch, ultimately it's their problem, not yours. Sure, for the small amount of time you're in their orbit you have to deal with it and it's unpleasant. But at least when you move on, the problem is gone. Someone like this has to deal with being an Arschloch 24/7.

b

[still learning]

Lots of good advice already given by the many respondants to this posting - -so I won't repeat.......

Calm yourself - and remember that you are face-to-face with this person very little - in the great scheme of things.


We were rotating ...After that, the sensei took us out of the rotation.

Rotate in and out - but if you remain unruffled you will score points with this person.
More to the point, you will be considering your kendo - rather than his apparent dislike of the situation and/or 'bad attitude'.

Importantly; you say you are not yet in armour. If you let this person bug you now you may well suffer when you reach armour-training with him.

Rise above it!

Gambatte.

[Sasaki]

If you let this person bug you now you may well suffer when you reach armour-training with him.


Just make the decision to not let it cloud your enjoyment of practice.

These are all good arguments.
And you're all right guys. I should focus on my kendo and give a damn about him. When I'm a bit more experienced and find myself I the same situation, I'll make sure I don't make the same mistake he did.
I probably need more determination... and strength. But when I get to be in bogu, i'll kick his ass, that's for sure!

[still learning]

But when I get to be in bogu, i'll kick his ass, that's for sure!

Let us hope the guy has not read this comment.

You could be made to suffer GREATLY........but I like your spirit!

Gambatte!

[dwez]

His whole aura in jigeiko is messed up too... He's like a mad demon trying to kill his opponent...

It's difficult to comment only from your description you may well be right but also some people behave differently during jigeiko. Like most people I've faced people who are reserved, people whoo look like they want to kill you and people inbetween.

As you are not in bogu what he does during jigeiko doesn't really affect you. You should use that time to see how his behaviour offers oppenings for when you do face him. Additionally unless you are on the other end of his shinai at this time you cannot completely know what his intent is. When you are fencing someone you can tell when its real aggression or not, which isn't always the case as a spectator. I did a huge amount of loud kiaing recently with a beginner only just in armour and somehow I got the impression that the other beginners and my opponent thought I was being tough on her, but it was just kiai. I just thought it was good practice, your sempai may be thinking something similar.