5 ways to seme from chuudan.-

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Hi guys, about a week ago, I was talking with some friends, sempais actually, and we got into a interesting discussion about seme, chuudan no kamae and seme points, apparently they didn´t have much to say about anything in particular or didn´t remember quite well what they had been taught some time ago, personally, I had never heard this before and they were surprised I hadn´t.

The thing is, from what I understood or got clear out of the conversation and other questions and advices, that there is 5 points that you can seme into, I´ve been introduced to 3: left eye, throat and belly button... I heard there is other 2 defined points, if I recall another one was the mune.... though I´m not sure. Well, some guys even talk about 5 different chuudan depending on which of this points you use as "stationary" place or area for your kensaki, 5 chuudan because all of this are between jodan and gedan no kamae.

So I´d like to ask what is your knowledge on this matter?, have you ever been introduced to this? any insights?

...I was told by my sensei about the 3 points I mentioned earlier, he said that it was very important to experiment with this 3 ways of putting pressure on my opponents and that I should alternate constantly among them, apparently I was being too monotonous in this.

[Kagerou]

Do you mean the 5 seigan? (5 kanji with different meanings, same pronunciation....1 big headache)

1st is normal point to the throat - most basic
2nd is between the eyes
3rd is to the left eye of your aite
4th is to the 'third eye' (center of the forehead)
5th is to the mune

All I know is that they put pressure on different areas of your aite. Don't know enough about the first point to start worrying about the other 4 yet. I've got a book I'm trying to read that describes them in a very basic way but I'm having troubles because my Japanese is sheite. Compounded by the fact that even my Japanese teacher had no idea what it was talking about....so when I can actually ask the question to my sensei and understand the answer I'll let you know :)

[Charlie]

Interesting! I never thought about it this way before. Would like to hear more.

[Paburo]

五せい眼 （ごせいがん）
「せい眼の構え」の「せい」の文字にはいくつかの文字が当てられ、代表的なものとして「正」「晴」「青」「 星」「臍」の五つの文字がある。その五つの「せい眼」を総称して現在では「中段の構え」と呼んでいるが、本 来は五つの文字使いそれぞれに違いがあった。要するに、自分の剣先を相手のどこにつけるかという違いで、「 正眼」の場合は剣先を相手の咽喉につけるという意味を含んでいる。以下、「晴眼」の場合は相手の両眼の中間 に、「青眼」は相手の左眼に、「星眼」は、天上の星になぞらえ相手の顔の真中に、「臍眼」は相手の臍（へそ ）につける、ということを表わす。

i'll make a quick and dirty translation since i'm not a native speaker and can't be arsed more...

the different kanji used are representative for the different variations the standard seigan no kamae. though they are all assumed to be a variation of 'chuudan no kamae'.

these are the 5 seigan:

「正眼」1. kensen pointing at the aite's throat / nodo / inkou
「晴眼」2. kensen pointing at the aite's space right between the eyes
「青眼」3. kensen pointing at the aite's left eye
「星眼」4. kensen pointing at the aite's center of the forehead****
「臍眼」5. kensen pointing at the aite's belly button / navel.


****(actually in japanese it says kensen pointing at the very center of the face??... the very center of the face would be somewhere around the nose?? lol. it also says pointing in the "trayectory" of a 'distant star on the heavens"? that's pretty vague to me! haha. nihongo masters... help!)

[JoDuncan]

...
it also says pointing in the "trayectory" of a 'distant star on the heavens"? that's pretty vague to me! haha. nihongo masters... help!)

Is this not something to do with "ki extension" i.e. you let your ki flow to 'infinity' not to the target you are aiming at. Pressure through your opponent, not pressure to your opponent.
-Based on your description not the nihongo

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Thanks for the input guys! please keep it coming, let´s dig deeper in this!

[Kenzan]

1st is normal point to the throat - most basic (http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2147083/2/istockphoto_2147083_choke.jpg)
2nd is between the eyes (http://www.lifespy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/unibrow.jpg)
3rd is to the left eye of your aite (http://www.izzys-party-shop.com/images/9542.jpg)
4th is to the 'third eye' (center of the forehead) (http://www.advancedmindpower.com/third_eye.jpg)
5th is to the mune (http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/10/09/march/story.jpg)



:D:D:D:D
>>>>>>>>>>

[Wesley Myers]

Hi,

Actually the translation ("very centre of the face") correct as between the eyes. The eyes are actually in the centre of the head.

As can be seen in this portrait tutorial here: http://www.portrait-artist.org/face/structure2.html

It may appear that the nose is in the centre, but on actual measurement, it is the eyes (the hair and the narrow angle of the chin makes the centre to appear lower).

[Wesley Myers]

Okay, so now I wonder what is the difference between 2 and 4 ... (if by face, they mean head, or by face only 'till the hair line ...)

[Halcyon]

I think this is one of those things where someone is formalizing into words what experienced people do naturally. I don't necessarily think there are five discrete chudan levels, but rather a continuum. But I would agree that it's a good idea to experiment with the height of your chudan. For example, a higher chudan can sometimes bait your opponent to go for kote.

[litige]

Hi,

Actually the translation ("very centre of the face") correct as between the eyes. The eyes are actually in the centre of the head.

As can be seen in this portrait tutorial here: http://www.portrait-artist.org/face/structure2.html

It may appear that the nose is in the centre, but on actual measurement, it is the eyes (the hair and the narrow angle of the chin makes the centre to appear lower).


My eyes are actually under my nose...

[Kingofmyrrh]

Is this not something to do with "ki extension" i.e. you let your ki flow to 'infinity' not to the target you are aiming at. Pressure through your opponent, not pressure to your opponent.
-Based on your description not the nihongo

Easy fella, not let's get carried away and delve into mysticism...

I don't really have so much interest in these 5 kamae for my kendo. They're taken from a time when you could whack a guy wherever you pleased and if blood came out it probably went OK. These days we have different priorities in terms of places that we can strike and I think the focus of seme is largely determined by these.

[Kagerou]

I think this is one of those things where someone is formalizing into words what experienced people do naturally. I don't necessarily think there are five discrete chudan levels, but rather a continuum. But I would agree that it's a good idea to experiment with the height of your chudan. For example, a higher chudan can sometimes bait your opponent to go for kote.

I'd say they are five discrete points on a continuum. Yes you shouldn't fixate on any one but they are the spots you cycle through, are they not?

On the topic of cycling, do you cycle clockwise or counter-clockwise?

[JoDuncan]

Easy fella, not let's get carried away and delve into mysticism...
...

Nothing mystical about it i'm afraid. I may have used slightly esoteric terms (infinity) but it's not some hokus pokus BS stuff; it's applicable. Ki is a word i've heard describe it best (mind).

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

so, sad to see this thread is drying out. however, I found some more info on the matter, here it is: http://elburroenjapon.blogspot.com/2008/05/kendo.html

[bobdonny]

I know what your saying but i still reckon seme "is", i.e. its not "done"....
I feel if you try to do it your missing the point.

I also understand how focus on these points may make your opponent feel vulnerable, like we're missing the wood for the tree's.