Two kinds of (large) cuts?

[neko kenshi]

Perhaps this is just a misperception on my part, but recently I've been noticing increasingly often that there seems to be two separate styles of cutting large men, even when doing meticulously controlled suburi drills. This has become increasingly apparent as I try to give feedback to beginners (total beginners, that is, I'm definitely a beginner myself in the broader sense of the word, which no doubt is part of the issue) on their men strikes and often find that conflicting messages are being taught to them by different people. I will try to describe them, but I may have difficulty doing so. Hopefully I'll get the message across.

The first style of cut that I try to emulate is what I'll call the circular style cut. This one, to the best of my knowledge, has you keep more or less the same angles on your elbows and wrists as you cut, with the motion coming primarily from the rotation of the shoulders. This one, which more closely matches the sort of cuts that are done in iaido (to the best of my knowledge and perception), is the one that has been taught by the highest level of sensei that I have learned from.

The second style of cut, which I'll call the whip-like cut, uses the the shoulders, but also bends the elbows and uses the the wrists to throw the tip forward. I've heard it taught using the analogy of throwing a fishing line, if that helps. This is the one that I see most kendoka, including plenty of higher ranking ones, do. Now, the way I described it makes it sound overtly abnormal, but I'm just trying to emphasize their differences and am likely exaggerating in doing so.

So is one correct and the other incorrect? Are they both just different ways of doing the same thing? Which do you do/ see more often? Or am I totally off in making this distinction? Sometimes it is difficult because, as best as I can interpret it, various sensei and sempai will give me feedback on my cuts that seem contradictory to each other. The tricky thing is working with beginners, in which case I just tell them to take my opinion on what a good men is with a grain of salt as it disagrees with some of the instruction they've been getting from some others. Thanks for any light you could shed on this subject for me.

**note: Despite the impression one might get from reading this post, I don't actually teach the beginners, which would of course be concerning given my own apparent inexperience and confusion, I just try to work with them/answer questions here or there during drills or occasionally after class.

[Sparv]

I'm a beginner too, and I have learned from those two kinds of cut. From what I understood, they serve two different purposes.

The "circular type": it helps to keep the shoulder relaxed. That's how you can do 70 haya suburi.

The "whip-like": it helps to use more left hand, and to control the tip of the shinai (preventing it from going down at the end of the cut). It shows more the uchi.

[Kaoru]

Perhaps this is just a misperception on my part, but recently I've been noticing increasingly often that there seems to be two separate styles of cutting large men, even when doing meticulously controlled suburi drills. This has become increasingly apparent as I try to give feedback to beginners (total beginners, that is, I'm definitely a beginner myself in the broader sense of the word, which no doubt is part of the issue) on their men strikes and often find that conflicting messages are being taught to them by different people. I will try to describe them, but I may have difficulty doing so. Hopefully I'll get the message across.

The first style of cut that I try to emulate is what I'll call the circular style cut. This one, to the best of my knowledge, has you keep more or less the same angles on your elbows and wrists as you cut, with the motion coming primarily from the rotation of the shoulders. This one, which more closely matches the sort of cuts that are done in iaido (to the best of my knowledge and perception), is the one that has been taught by the highest level of sensei that I have learned from.

The second style of cut, which I'll call the whip-like cut, uses the the shoulders, but also bends the elbows and uses the the wrists to throw the tip forward. I've heard it taught using the analogy of throwing a fishing line, if that helps. This is the one that I see most kendoka, including plenty of higher ranking ones, do. Now, the way I described it makes it sound overtly abnormal, but I'm just trying to emphasize their differences and am likely exaggerating in doing so.

So is one correct and the other incorrect? Are they both just different ways of doing the same thing? Which do you do/ see more often? Or am I totally off in making this distinction? Sometimes it is difficult because, as best as I can interpret it, various sensei and sempai will give me feedback on my cuts that seem contradictory to each other. The tricky thing is working with beginners, in which case I just tell them to take my opinion on what a good men is with a grain of salt as it disagrees with some of the instruction they've been getting from some others. Thanks for any light you could shed on this subject for me.

**note: Despite the impression one might get from reading this post, I don't actually teach the beginners, which would of course be concerning given my own apparent inexperience and confusion, I just try to work with them/answer questions here or there during drills or occasionally after class.

I think that if you took 10 different sensei and asked them how they would cut men, you'd hear a different answer from each.

So, I think they are just different ways to do the same thing. I've heard and seen different ways to cut men too, from several sensei. I think it is a good idea to be able to cut men both ways that you have described. This way, you have more in your bag as to what you know, in how to approach striking men. And, I think eventually, what happens is that you'll one day form your own style-and I mean in the individual sense, not a ryu or something like that, once you're at a high enough level if you stick with kendo a long time and work with different instructors over time.

I know this eventually happens with percussion anyway, if one is serious about it and sticks with it and trains eventually with other high level teachers. So, I imagine it is the same for kendo.

I take it that you have more than one sensei right? Well, to solve the problem for a brand new or a fairly new beginner who will be really confused by being told different ways to strike men, I would think that the head sensei is the person to whom a beginner would refer to in how to cut men, in the end. Otherwise, confusion may set in and slow up progress in their technique.

So, if I was in your position, I would ask the head sensei how he'd like beginners to be taught how to cut men. I think that he would be the deciding factor in this, if I'm not mistaken? :confused: That could possibly help solve your problem in the conflicting ways of cutting men being taught to the new beginners and what to tell them.

Hope this helps! :)

Kaoru

[herozs]

I always wondered why I saw different men cuts. Ive been taught what maybe is the whiplike one. First I move my shoulders then my elbow joint and then my wirsts I end up with both arms straight.

[MikeW]

The whip-like one you describe requires better mastery of tenouchi and a stronger left arm/hand. Beginners often have trouble with this and a bigger, more basic waza is taught to start off with. This way you can learn the basic movements and learn to keep your shoulders relaxed and proper footwork etc before doing it all in a more speedy way. At least I think this is what you are trying to describe when you talk about two men kinds of cuts. The whip-like one will use more wrist and the same motions (along with good tenouchi) will allow you to execute sashi style cuts more effectively as you gain experience. There is nothing wrong with using the 'circular' style one, it is more elegant a lot of times and very clean typically, but for most of us is slower to execute and takes excellent timing. Thats why you see some high ranked senseis use it due to their keen sense of timing and simplistic elegance. IMHO and YMMV of course ;)

[Martino]

I'm a beginner too, and I have learned from those two kinds of cut. From what I understood, they serve two different purposes.

The "circular type": it helps to keep the shoulder relaxed. That's how you can do 70 haya suburi.

The "whip-like": it helps to use more left hand, and to control the tip of the shinai (preventing it from going down at the end of the cut). It shows more the uchi.

Sparv for the win.

Both focus on different aspects of the cut.
If you just do the "circular type" motion the cut lands but their is a feeling of something missing.
If you just do the "whip-like" motion the cut tends bounce off back (up) into the air.

So depending what aspect of your kendo are focusing. In the end you should have a cut with aspect of both. (naturally in combining the two movements there are also elements which will be dropped).

Anyway all roads lead to Rome and these to cross over each other route fairly regually.

[DCPan]

Personally, I tend to think of it as people leading the swing with the tip or leading with the hands...folks who leads with the hands tend to do a one-two.

YMMV

[still learning]

I'm a beginner too, and I have learned from those two kinds of cut. From what I understood, they serve two different purposes.

The "circular type": it helps to keep the shoulder relaxed. That's how you can do 70 haya suburi.

The "whip-like": it helps to use more left hand, and to control the tip of the shinai (preventing it from going down at the end of the cut). It shows more the uchi.

I have been shown - and try to practise - both types.

To separate them, in my mind and in my practice;
I employ the 'circular' cut as often as is possible during keiko;
I employ the 'whip-cut' more often during shiai practice - as it seems to be quicker.

Each type affords the opportunity to practice shibori-tenouchi with different timings of the uchi/arm movements.

Just a few thoughts.......

Bill

[JSchmidt]

That signature block is just a little excessive, don't you think?

[shred_lord]

I think the whippy one is good for getting people to throw their kensen forward. The circular one is a more realistic cut. At least it looks that when done by the GB squad coach (7th dan kyoshi).

[Charlie]

Really good question, neko. You should definitely speak to your instructor about it. I tend to only teach an orthodox style of cut, the circular one, and stay away from the whippy one myself.

[hyuna]

fwiw, I usually tell people to whip more if they are clubbing, and people to make a rounder cut if they are not cutting with the tip.

I also think it's a great question, but it is really hard to answer in words.

[Masahiro]

i think this is indeed a good question, sorry to say I am of no help, but i think people who do iaido and also kendo would be of great help. Such as Stroud-sensei, and DCpan and others who I am not familiar with.

One interesting thing I noticed with regards to Stroud sensei, when he was in Pittsburgh for a mini seminar/practice, i noticed his hands were very natural. And his tenouchi was soft but firm.<<anyways, maybe I've got it all wrong but that's all I know. Cause you know i am still very green.


that's all. .

[neko kenshi]

Yeah, it was after one of Stroud sensei's visits to our dojo where we worked primarily on doing nice large cuts that I started trying to do very "circular" style large cuts that resemble my iai cuts as best as I can- but I never know at my noobish level when I'm butchering advice, so I'm hesitant to say this is exactly what I was told to do.

Anywho, thanks for all the replies so far! I've found it very helpful to hear a variety of explanations of the matter.

[always_learning]

From what I have seen in Japan most 7dans that I keiko, dare I say, with employ a sort of "whipping wrist" style very little elbow movement, they then just vary the amount of shoulder movement depending on what they are doing, quite a lot and towards a circular motion if doing/demostrating kihon men, to almost nothing if they are performing a fast "debana" kote.

[always_learning]

BTW What style of cut do you think the 3 students (1 nana-dan, 2 hachi-dans) are using in keiko with kyudan Taneguchi Sensei ? I would take any of them as textbook!

Thread about 9th dan Kendo (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=169211&postcount=1)

Which links to this youtube vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-myBW-ubCiU&search=kendo)

[H.Sandsleth]

From what I have seen in Japan most 7dans that I keiko, dare I say, with employ a sort of "whipping wrist" style very little elbow movement, they then just vary the amount of shoulder movement depending on what they are doing, quite a lot and towards a circular motion if doing/demostrating kihon men, to almost nothing if they are performing a fast "debana" kote. Yes...their small cuts looks like short versions of the big ones. And there is use of the wrists/hands and elbows. Which for me relates to kihon containing some of the keys to smaller and faster techniques.

[always_learning]

Yes...their small cuts looks like short versions of the big ones. And there is use of the wrists/hands and elbows. Which for me relates to kihon containing some of the keys to smaller and faster techniques.


Would you go so far as to say that except for the amount of shoulder rotation the cuts are the same? Rather than just smaller versions, almost the same except the for the amount full shoulder arm lift?

[Anonymous]

I've actually been moving between a few different dojos for a couple years now, and it seems like everyone has a slightly different way of doing things, and they're all technically correct.

[H.Sandsleth]

Would you go so far as to say that except for the amount of shoulder rotation the cuts are the same? Rather than just smaller versions, almost the same except the for the amount full shoulder arm lift? Yes. If there are slight variations, I believe that the same body mechanics, the generation of power, etc still are still present. (For me this would be an interesting study object, comparing big versus small cuts, seeing what remains most constant, where there might be variations etc..)

[The great I AM]

Personally, I tend to think of it as people leading the swing with the tip or leading with the hands...folks who leads with the hands tend to do a one-two.

YMMVThis may just be me, but I always think way more about what my hands (and arms) are doing than my shinai. My hands are the things moving the shinai so I try to think about where they need to end for the shinai to stop in the right place and with the right snap, then adjust accordingly. For me, concentrating only on the shinai ends in a cut that is too low or too close. I try to keep this in my head in jigeiko too. If my hands are moving so is my kensen, it can't move without my hands moving, and my hands control my shinai so by keeping them in line I don't need to worry about the shinai, because it does what my hands tell it to. I try to think of the shinai as the least important physical component of my kendo.

[DCPan]

This may just be me, but I always think way more about what my hands (and arms) are doing than my shinai.

I agree with that.

But I don't equate thinking about the hands with "leading" with the hands though.

What I mean by "leading" is similar to when people ask about what moves first, sword, koshi, or feets and etc.

Moving the hands first vs. moving the tip first produce very different arcs and results.


For me, concentrating only on the shinai ends in a cut that is too low or too close.

I have the opposite problem...I hit deep when I think about my hands because I'm not extending my awareness. I find that I tend to be better with my maai when I know where my kissaki is.

That said, I have the problem of bad hand work (left hand position) when I focus too much on the tip...oh well :disapp:
:D

[ne0r]

I asked myself a very similar question and talked about it a little with others (unfortunately not with sensei).
An interesting idea I heard is that these are just two approaches to teaching men that are maybe used to cure different problems but lead to the same cut in the end. That's already my interpretation, so take it for what it's worth.