The Wall

[Achilles]

Our dojang isn't air conditioned. We've been having a record hot summer here in Virginia, and practices at my dojang tend to be very intense with almost no resting.

I have noticed that usually around my 2nd free-sparring match (ji-geiko), after all the stretching and drills, I hit THE WALL.

THE WALL is where I am so tired that I can't effectively fence anymore. My breathing is labored, my movements slow, I'm always 1/2 second too late, or 1/2 inch too short. I want to sit down, and in some cases throw up. (for the record, I'm only 28, in outstanding shape). I can hang in there and finish the practice, but I no longer perform in a manner that I deem acceptable.

I *know* that everyone else is feeling the same way, but they are able to break through this wall somehow. What I'm wondering is how do I do it? Anyone have any ideas?

[deanoclark]

I tend to increase cardio training outside of regular dojo training when I'm finding I can't keep up in class.....riding a bike for an hour or so, jogging, or swimming a couple of times a week does wonders for me.

I tend to do this in the height of winter and summer for a month or so, but I suffer more form my asthma limiting me, so none of this may be of any help.

[iwatekenshi]

Achilles,
A timely thread. Here in Japan conditions are the same or even worse with humidity levels. Air conditioning is rare. It's an uncomfortable atmosphere to practice in but precautions can be taken. From the occasional vomitting seems like you are suffering from dyhydration. Do you drink a lot of water before practice? If you don't I suggest you tank up as much as you can. Not all at once though, but little by little at intervals of thirty minutes or so from the time you wake up. You'd also want take some sports drink, but cut it in half with water. Also during practice you must drink water! People do it here with a cold water bottle and a straw sticking out so you can drink without taking the men off. People place them in the corner of the dojo so they are used freely when needed.
FYI
In the most recent issue of Kendo Jidai there was an article of how much prespiration you loose in kendo. Compared to other indoor sports it was on the top end of the list.

[alexpollijr]

I went through this feeling many times in the height of summer.

t may sound stupid but I found out that a good night's sleep in the days before practice and some gatorade about one hour before practice has worked wonders for me.

Often during practice I'd lift arms slowly breathing in and out and loosing the abdomen pressure a little.

[tetsuoxb]

Hey,

In Florida, we face this alot with non airconditioned facilities.

Two things work best - hydration, not eating within the 4 hours before practice, and pure will.

When I get into the position, I keep going til I want to collapse, than I push futher. I can vomit, pass out, or any of those things after keiko. Sometimes the wall wins, but knowing I will let myself down pushes me further. Working to the limit and being ineffective is better than stopping in my book.

If I HAVE to take a break, I take a 20 second breathing practice of 2 deep breaths - inhale 5 seconds, exhale 5 seconds, repeat.

[kendokamax]

ah I never suffered from anything like that in my kendo practices.

ahha i feel like a lazy kendoka when i hear you guys talk about practices like that.

it's good, it gives me some inspirations

[richard haly]

Perhaps one might also slow down. Are you seeing every cut that you intend to make or letting "spirit" attack without calmness? At the risk of sounding "spiritual" (saudje Alex) I mean that I have seen a lot of people wear themselves out striking. Don't get me wrong. I get tired too. Really tired. I'm almost twice your age. But when I see some one striking and striking without clarity, I know what to do. Defend things I see coming and watch for the opening that will appear as (our) tiredness increases...

I swam about a half mile before yesterday's practice and felt noticebly tired, but better when seeing younger people "waste" energy. To me the difference is speed. I don't mean velocity but the difference between someone going 60 mph for half a mile vs. someone going 20 mph for 100 yards. I wish that I were really the personification of the latter. I have certainly seen it, and even done it on lucky occasions. Where does stillness fit in your practice?

Best,

Richard

[Jklak]

Originally posted by alexpollijr

t may sound stupid but I found out that a good night's sleep in the days before practice and some gatorade about one hour before practice has worked wonders for me.
I agree about the importance of good night's sleep. Last weekend I was in four days camp here in Finland and we had two/three two hours practise session per day. Without good and long sleep it would be difficult for me go through camp. I still sleep ten hours night sleeps to recover.

[Kenshi]

I've hit this wall many times in the past, but v.rarely nowadays (sometimes at national squad training). I need sleep and lots of FOOD..... otherwise I get exhausted easily.

The last couple of years ive been thinking "quality not quantity" which helps alot .... except when sensei says "kakarigeiko" :eek:

[Achilles]

Part of the issue is my dojang's style. A lot of how we create openings and work our opponents is relentless attack.

When you watch the finals of the 49th All Japan's, you notice that the combatants strike VERY infrequently. There's a lot of careful jockeying for the center, and then . . . BAM.

Now go watch the 2001 All Korea's. BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM. Know what I mean?

Usually I prefer the rapid fire style (one of our common drills is chuk-to-murrie-taegyuk-murrie-chuk-to-murrie (hit the shinai, men, hiki-men, hit the shinai, men) as fast as humanly possible, but in the summer time, it is really hard to keep up.

One of the things I've been doing is trying to keep good chundan, and wait for my opponent to twitch, and then firing for dabana-kote, then leaning on him in tsuba-zerai for a bit.

Anyway, I think I'm more with Tetsuo on this. My fitness level is very high, so I think it's more of a mental issue. Any thoughts on more of a mental perspective?

P.S. There is unspoken pressure not to drink or take a break (and yes, before you say anything, I think this is dumb).

[Kenshi]

I've got some interesting literature on this, I mean, the physiology of kendo practise. Part of it was a juxtaposition of high-level kendoka, like those in the zen nihon kendo senshuken taikai, and the [then current] british squad. They found that the former had - on average - one attack per 20 seconds and the latter - again on average - had one every 6 seconds. Quite a large disparity. Both require different types of fitness.

If I have time in the future, maybe i'll type it in ..... urgh

[durrell4]

If you want to see snappy kendo from Japan watch the high school of college competitions. Wow they are nuts, such is youth. What you see at the all Japan champ. is the older kendo players, I am not sure, but I think there is an age limit. I often here from my sempi's in Japan that much of what they see in America in Kendo e.g. our national team reminds them of High School Kendo, fast and snappy with an emphasis on multi-hitting. I am not sure I agree with them on this, but I think that as we get older it is more difficult to be successful against the young and fast. It is one of the reasons I can't wait until I can test for yon-dan to be out the youth division. BTW I'm 32. The average age of the champion in the 1-3 dan division here is 19. Go figure.

As to getting through the wall- Its all a mental game you need to relax hit with your ki not with you strength. I find that when I am truly spent that is when I really start to learn. I have to play smart; I can no longer rely on pure brute force. I like those practices :)

[alexpollijr]

Achilles:

>Now go watch the 2001 All Korea's. BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM. >Know what I mean?

Yes indeed. Though I personally dislike this kind of kendo.

>Anyway, I think I'm more with Tetsuo on this. My fitness level is >very high, so I think it's more of a mental issue. Any thoughts on >more of a mental perspective?

Mine is average, but I can't think of it as a mental aspect. Sometimes it might come to disposition though. There are days in which I'm more at ease with practice than others. I believe it's due to sleep, which is both mental and physical.

>P.S. There is unspoken pressure not to drink or take a break > and yes, before you say anything, I think this is dumb).

We have this kind of 'pressure' as well but if one has to it's not the end of the world.

[lewis]

Achilles,

I agree with iwatekenshi in that it sounds like dehydration. Those symptoms were very common in our 4-5 hours wrestling practices in college and high school. And it is normal in long distance mountain biking as well. When you sweat, most of the water comes out of your blood, which reduces the volume of blood for transporting oxygen to the muscles and the brain.

The only thing that I have found that helps is hydration. My personal favorite is Propel. It's gatorade without the sugar and thus without the calories. If you problem is also running out of energy (bonking), then use gatorade. If they won't let you rest long enough to take a BIG drink every 10 or 15 minutes, maybe you can wear a Camelback during practice and run the tube into your men. (Just kidding). Good luck.

[tetsuoxb]

How I go through it is as follows:

I realize that due to my muscles not having enough glycogen, they are tired. I cannot fight this.

I can however fight the desire to stop because of this. You kendo goes downhill, but everything else shouldn't. How do I do this, I push harder - stronger kiai, more focus on the swing (slow or not), more focus on the opponents eyes. Push until your choice is passing out or stopping and then see how much futher you can go. Yeah, it sucks to feel that tired, but no experienced senpai is going to let you go too far over the line.

If you are in good shape, the chances you are gonna keel over in dehydration and do serious damage are pretty low. You are going to work your lung capacity to the wall. It is all a matter of finding your LIMIT not the end of your comfort zone. Training near the wall is very good for endurance, because you keep pushing your limit out further and further.

That is my experience.

[samurai999]

Achilles wrote:

Part of the issue is my dojang's style. A lot of how we create openings and work our opponents is relentless attack.

When you watch the finals of the 49th All Japan's, you notice that the combatants strike VERY infrequently. There's a lot of careful jockeying for the center, and then . . . BAM.

Now go watch the 2001 All Korea's. BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM. Know what I mean?

=================================================


From what you are saying, what you saw in the Korean Kumdo Championships seem to emphasize kakari-geiko instead of strategising. (correct me if I'm wrong)

If that is so and if they emphasize this in practices... No wonder why you are short of breath. I suggest you bring a water bottle with a straw. I usually try to buy Gatorade Propel (fitness water) at the local mart if they have a sale on it. It tastes like sweetened water, but it doesn't make you thirsty during practice.

As for the styles... Don't get me wrong.. Kakari-geiko is good for ya in terms of getting yourself to attack/react quicker and to more efficently read the other opponent for openings. The big "but" is that there is strategy to kendo and ignoring this when doing keiko or a competition is almost detrimental to your outcome.
As you increase in rank, intelligence plays an equal role to speed and skill when you play. Our 1-3 champions are also young.. Around 17-20 yrs of age. But, our 4dan and up champions are usually in their early to mid-30s. We usually combine shodan and up players at our regional championships and the usual victors are usually 4dan and up.

My 0.02$
Tim

[mingshi]

Guys,

Excellent information. We really need to prepare ourselves for summer training. It's the least enjoyable season for practising Kendo, but if you live through this..... Well done!

Summer... When I was sweeping the floor today, I was already sweating. To avoid muscle cramp (esp with dehydration).... do plenty of warm-up and stretching. Don't know about you guys but my dojo allows people to drink/take a short break in between. Probably we had a history of people passing out, asthma breakdown or whatever illnessit can be. The most legendary one being Sensei Lidstone having heart attack during practice. YES HE DIED!!

Know where your wall is, feel it for a while before jumping over it.
Happy practice~!

:)

[iwatekenshi]

This should be a different thread because it is a style problem but that fast attack kendo is not the type of fighting that you are supposed to emulate. The idea of kendo is IPPON SHOBU. Many teachers don't like the way "the average" high school student does kendo. If you were to use a real sword in that way both of you would be sliced into pieces. I teach at a school that has gone to the Inter-High School Championships 4 times in the last five years. They do well, but they always end up loosing to the schools who formulate their attack with brains and skill. Aso High School in Kyushu and PL Gakuen win their matches with one clear hit at a time. It's amazing to watch!

[tetsuoxb]

I agree totally with Iwate.

When I have met the wall, it was after long kakarigeiko sessions and then several rounds of jigeiko. The senpai decide when to push our limits in this manner, but it would be worthless if we did not strive for beautiful kendo. Even though I feel tired is a state of mind, and you shouldn't stop to recover but just do the best you can, you can always dictate the speed of the match.

If you are tired and your opponent wants to run around because he is not, go ahead and let him is how I feel it should be done. Let him come to you, of course, dont stand there and be a target. Someone putting more effort into speed and playing a fast match will make a mistake you can make him pay for if you watch hard enough. Being tired breaks this kind of presence of mind down, but you just have to build back up.

One time when I was pushed, I hit the wall and decided to climb it, let out a kiai twice as loud as anything I had done to that point and started pushing myself. I got through, but I started making dumb mistakes in my effort to keep pushing. Afterwards, I was complimented on my dedication to conquer being tired, but gently reminded to control my zanshin and present an even demeanor. I have keep this reminder with me every time I hit the wall. One shot. One Kill.

[BeautifulGaijin]

Click on this link to see a kakarigeiko:
http://www.technolustomega.net/kendo/kataokakellams.wmv

Here is some kumdo I also find:
http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/Kumdo/Kim_Huh.wmv


--bg

[tetsuoxb]

Hahah.. how did that poor video of me get out. I am gonna love the bandwidth spike that is gonna cause.

That video is of me with Noboru Kataoka sensei of NYC Kendo club. First time I ever faced him, and lets say I was a bit intimidated and let some bad habits come to the forefront. Thankfully my kendo is getting better. It also isn't a very fast paced kakarigeiko... was mid-seminar and I was about halfway through a line of about 20 people doing keiko with sensei.

PS - How did you find that video? Google?

You can view the actual site that belongs to at http://plaza.ufl.edu/tetsuoxb

Thanks.

[tetsuoxb]

One other thing... please don't CLICK the link. Download it, don't stream please. Do this by right clicking and selecting save as. I can imagine the bandwidth bill if everyone streams multiple times!

I am a bit embarassed.... Not only am I not that good.. Kataoka sensei is very very good. Not just as an actor but as a Kendoka, so unfortunately I make him look good - in a bad way :-D

[mingshi]

You want some Kumdo videos?

go to www.kumdo.org, enter the site after the intro
left menu>5th Option>1st Option
And there goes a list of chamionship clips, click on the blue link on the right in the table.... pretty slow+unstable connection

I don't know much about Kumdo + I cannot read Korean (apart from the Fed.'s officials' names, which are all in Chinese characters...). From what I've seen:-

1) They don't sonkyo!!
2) They have blue tare on BOTH side, but one side has a white number bag...
3) Their referee flags are blue/white..... and so as their MEN!!!

would someone start a new thread~

[olaf]

I don't think the practice of sonkyo out of a match is part of standard kumdo procedure.

I don't think kumdo tare are physically different from any other tare either. The "number bag" is a tag they often put on players during large competitions, so they can keep track of people. eg. contestent # so-and-so....

Judging flags are blue and white instead of red and white. Again, not an inconsistency...I believe the choice of colors have some history associated with them. Perhaps some of the kumdo enthusiasts here can explain...

And I don't think starting a new thread targeted at the differences between kumdo and kendo would be a good idea, seeing how every time those two terms arise together on this forum all hell breaks loose...

[Achilles]

Olaf, don't make a big deal out of nothing. "All hell" is not breaking loose and it's more than possible to even have a strong disagreement about the differences of kendo and kumdo without real rancor between parties. That's the beauty of healthy debate between informed adults.

For the record, no, we do not sankyo in my dojang. There is even a debate among Japanese kenshi as to whether the sankyo is still necessary. My dojang is very flexible about it. When we compete in the Bong Rim Gi, where the primary element is Korean, we do not sankyo. When we compete in the GNEUSKF championships in Cleveland, we do sankyo. All we're interested in is having a good fencing match.

If any of your travels should take you to the Washington, D.C. area, I certainly hope you'll drop me a line at achillesva@hotmail.com so I can invite you to join us for a practice.

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Achilles
I have noticed that usually around my 2nd free-sparring match (ji-geiko), after all the stretching and drills, I hit THE WALL.

What I'm wondering is how do I do it? Anyone have any ideas?

If you HTW, then you probably are training quite intensely - good.

When you HTW, stop, take off your men, get up walk your water tap or bottle, have a small sip of water, walk back, put your men back on properly and return to keiko. You may find that you recover quite well in those few minutes. If not - slow down a bit and concentrate in your correct form, the logic being, if you can do it correctly when stuffed, then when you are feeling good - no problem !

Also as mentioned by someone else, hydration is very important. Before, after and if really hot - during training. Research and develop your own hydration program.

Richard

[bronxjragon]

Anyway here is my experiences with THE WALL and how to fight it...and its worked everytime even though it breaks the rules of convention:)
1) Drink a bottle of Gatorade in sips for a duration of one hour while...
2) Eating half a hero 10 minutes before Kendo practice
3) Make sure your hakama and gi are clean so you have confidence (if you stink, you'll feel bad about yourself and cover it up)
4) Have FUN

Just my opinions. It might not help you though because I'm a nut.

[Paburo]

if you are tired and on the limit while doing kakarigeiko it's sort of bad, cause you can't just really stop and walk out.

but if you are tired in jigeiko it's not so bad. i start to get tired after 4-5 consecutive jigeikos, so what i do is take 'a break' whitout stopping.

that is, when tired change style of fighting(when you notice that your attacks become slower and your breathing is heavy and you start losing focus etc etc).
instead of doing debana waza, or kote-men, or crazy kumdo machine gun hits or any move FIRST. i block and block and do kaeshi/suriage/hari. this reduces a whole lot the energy you spend, and gives you a few minutes to 'recharge' or 'build up' again ki for the rest of the combats.
when you gain your breath back, kill them! ok not really. but you can be more aggresive after taking that little pause.

we are not allowed to drink stuff i think. so not many choices out there anyway.

[Hyaku]

I used to hit that wall everyday. It was after kakarigeiko. Kakarigeiko was not stopped until you hit it. Then after that you had kiri kaeshi. If they could sqeeze more that was done twice. I dont think could ever have pushed myself that much. I really felt as if I would die. The winters were fine but summers pushing 39c were....

When you are tired you do your best work. To educate the body to fight with relaxation.
Its that last one you pull out the bag that counts.

Gatorade? Damn thats luxury. The only time we were allowed to take the men off is when we puke and that was not always possible! You just try not to do it all over sensei.

Hyaku

[alexpollijr]

I think he meant drinking the Gatorade before practice.
I do it, about one hour before practice starts. I also get an sports bar.

But nothing works as nicely as a good night's sleep.

[KhawMengLee]

No food before training. But I usually get a nice chocolate bar and a big bottle of water 10mins before I start. (ooo...the japan club kiosk has lovely chocs)...

[bronxjragon]

Using the bathroom before practice is good too. Once I really needed to piss during jigeiko. I swear I would've peed my hakama if sensei would have fought me....luckily there was a tournament the next day so we took it easy that day.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Time to take the role of the crypt keeper and dig this one up hehe...always a good time for cardio discussion...I found that increasing cardio is frustrating, even jogging every day the hot dojo will drain you fast and my sensei teaches attack attack attack to the new students, basically one sided kumate we swing away and then the sempai blocks...this tends to wear me down fast.

[Falcon]

Achilles,
The Wall is quite a foe. Although I don't practice kendo, yet(trying to get work in line so I can) I have been sword fighting for many years. And in Alaska to boot. We get the very cold winters and the very hot summers. Many of the people I would practice with would always hit the wall within 10 min of hard sparring. But thier was mostly a physical.

Mine was mental, like you believe yours to be. What I did to get around this was simply take things out of the picture. First, I removed everything that exisisted outside of our sparring circle. Next, I focused inward very carefully. I closed my eyes and took deep regular breaths, while my mind drew me in, until all the little hairs on the back of my neck would stand on end. While there, I removed any sensation I felt, pain, tired, hot, cold, hungry, thristy. I became my sword. Then I opened my eyes, locking onto my opponent. That was all there was left. All that remainded was my sword(me) and my enemy. Our world was a small circle with nothing outside of it.

While fighting, I would remain focused on just those things. There is no thought or emotion. Only my sword and that of my enemy. And that got me past The Wall.

Now after practice is a different story. I still need to work on gradually letting things back. I stop focusing and then I'm tired, sore, thrirsty, and my breath starts coming in gasps. But I'm fine til then...

Hope this works for you, if not, I think I could come up with a more detailed accounting...

Falcon

[Hinokuni]

Only my sword and that of my enemy.
Your enemy remained?!

Ommm

[Falcon]

Your enemy remained?!

Ommm
Well, I wasn't excatly going to kill some poor guy with a shinai. :smiley:


Falcon

[darren]

Last practice I drank a litre of water before practice and then an amazing 3.5 litres afterward. I think its possible that I sweat more than some people but I'm also larger. Still it is shocking to me.

During the winter I usually supplement my diet with creatine monohydrate to facilitate weight-lifting. I have found that I can't do that (creatine) during the summer due to kendo practice. My water requirements during practice go through the roof and I get cramps in all sorts of odd places.

Using L-glutamine can assist in handling "The Wall" if it is tiredness and not exhaustion due to dehydration. Personally I find that it moves the wall waaaay back, which can be a bad thing, after all your body is trying to tell you something...

Does anyone else have experience with using creatine for kendo performance? How about L-glutamine?

[indigo0086]

Is it safe to assume that you are not allowed bathroom breaks during practice? I fear my future practice because the weather here stinks.

[Nishi]

I fear my future practice because the weather here stinks.

Why...? Are you in Manitoba as well :smiley: ???