Kyoto Budo Center? Forget it!!!

[Usagi San]

This summer I went in Kyoto. I flew 14 and half hours to fulfill an old dream: to visit Japan, and ocasionally practice some kendo. I talked to a police officer who was kind enough to show me where the Kyoto Butokuden is. I went there ask them if I could pratice kendo with them. The conversation was as follow:

ME - Kendo keiko?
GUY BEHIND DESK (GBD) - Hai, seven o'clock.
ME - Me kendo keiko?
GBD - No, you see.
ME - I bogu. I kendo keiko.
GBD - No, you see.
ME - But I...
GBD - NO. YOU SEE.

End of conversation. I didn't even try to practice again while in Japan.
Is it like this in Japan? Because I've practiced kendo (and other martial arts) in dojos all over the world and I've been wellcome everytime I did it. In Japan I expect everything: hard jigeiko, endless kakarigeiko... hell geiko, but this...

[Phil]

maybe you use the wrong way to etablish the contact?! no?

i planified everythink 3 month before i went to japan , my federation needed to ask the european federation who need to ask the International federation who need to disside where i can go and "if" i can go...
so maybe they don t accept someone who come like a tourist...?

i understand you were not happy.

regards

Phil

[amatsuda]

This summer I went in Kyoto. I flew 14 and half hours to fulfill an old dream: to visit Japan, and ocasionally practice some kendo. I talked to a police officer who was kind enough to show me where the Kyoto Butokuden is. I went there ask them if I could pratice kendo with them. The conversation was as follow:

ME - Kendo keiko?
GUY BEHIND DESK (GBD) - Hai, seven o'clock.
ME - Me kendo keiko?
GBD - No, you see.
ME - I bogu. I kendo keiko.
GBD - No, you see.
ME - But I...
GBD - NO. YOU SEE.

End of conversation. I didn't even try to practice again while in Japan.
Is it like this in Japan? Because I've practiced kendo (and other martial arts) in dojos all over the world and I've been wellcome everytime I did it. In Japan I expect everything: hard jigeiko, endless kakarigeiko... hell geiko, but this...

I used to practice there....Although the practice is open to the public...I think the policy was you dropped your 300 Yen (probably has gone up since) and signed your name on the roster......

However, the Kyoto Kendo community is pretty close knit....it's usually the same core people that practiced there...Consisting mostly of high ranking Senseis, Kyoto Police, and a scattered number of students and Shakai-Jin...everybody typically knows each other...

Instead of showing up unannounced or not knowing anyone......It would have been best if you had an introduction from someone local....even if it was from the most round-a-bout way...Once you are introduced, the Senseis will recognize you and you will continue to be invited to the practices...

In fact, each time I went there my Sensei would take me around to introduce me or take me to greet each Sensei so that in the case that he were unable to go with me to practice, they would know who I was....

amatsuda

[Craig Jones]

Not that I have any first hand experience with training in Japan (yet), but even here in Canada I would not think to show up at a dojo unannounced and uninvited without first contacting the resident sensei (or contract) and asking permission if I could practice with them. If you were to make arrangements first I am sure they would have been more than happy to have you to practice.

[A P]

That's right!!!!!!!!

I second you all the way to Japan mannnn!!!

Never go to a dojo without letting the sensei know first. It is consider

RUDE....

[nodachi]

I am sorry that this happened to you. When I went to Japan, I walked into a local dojo and they were kind enough to have me hop right in the practice. However, there was a connection there. One of the people in the dojo knew I would be coming and either warned them in advance or spoke to the sensei to let him know I was serious about wanting to learn. It helps to make a connection and be invited for them to welcome you in sometimes.

Also I would assume that they practice very seriously at the Kyoto Budokan. Duh, I know. There are exceptions, but often the sensei will expect some one to invite you or ask you to purchase something expensive, such as equipment for example, before you start practicing in order to show them that you are committed to it. Many times they are skeptical of gaijin committment because often times people will show up once or twice pretend to care, have it get too tough, and then quit and disappear. This creates stereotypes toward gaijin and their sense of commitment. Unfair generalizations, but you do run into them from time to time.

Just some thoughts from my personal experience.

[nodachi]

Sorry, I cued in late, sorry for being redundant.

[xvikingx]

The conversation was as follow:

ME - Kendo keiko?
GUY BEHIND DESK (GBD) - Hai, seven o'clock.
ME - Me kendo keiko?
GBD - No, you see.
ME - I bogu. I kendo keiko.
GBD - No, you see.
ME - But I...
GBD - NO. YOU SEE.

End of conversation. I didn't even try to practice again while in Japan.
Is it like this in Japan? Because I've practiced kendo (and other martial arts) in dojos all over the world and I've been wellcome everytime I did it. In Japan I expect everything: hard jigeiko, endless kakarigeiko... hell geiko, but this...

I don't quite understand this conversation. He said 7 o' clock... were you late? Is it possible that you didn't understand him. I sometimes have trouble understanding people from Kyoto, especially old men.

[Keith]

You've obviously got the idea from other members on the board...introductions are the best, asking for permission ahead of time is also good. If you absolutely don't know anyone or are unable to establish permission before hand, particularly at such a location as the Kyoto Budo, ask your sensei to write a recommendation/introduction letter you can bring with you in person to present to the head instructor. Even this can be tricky though because once your sensei commits his signature to the letter, he is extending his personal capital to vouch for you to whomever reads it so you want to be sure your home dojo practice is the best it can be and your attitude is appropriately respectful.

[GMason]

Hi, Sorry to come in late,

I was lucky enough to practice at the Kyoto Butokuden two years ago. We just turned up, asked if we could watch, they saw our bogu and told us to join in.

We had sort of planned to join in if they would let us.... but asked if we could watch, in order to test the water. We did have loads of other Dojo's to practice at whilst we where over there so it wouldn't have been the end of the world, if they hadn't let us practice. Sorry to hear you had a bad time of it. Everyone I met over there was really kind and pleasent, and as soon as they knew we did Kendo, couldn't help us enough.... We even got to watch a Kyudo practice whilst at the Butokuden.

I can only guess you had a bad experience because you spoke to the receptionist and not the Kendoka themselves. But having said that the best way to do it if you don't want to be disappointed or upset anyone would be to prearrange it.

[Usagi San]

Excuse me, I wonder why there's less people, even in Japan, practicing Kendo and getting interested in, say, baseball.
So, you guys find absolutly normal that in order to practice one day, one time, in Japan, you have to get a recommendation letter, or know someone who knows someone that knows the secret handshake that opens... oh, come on, where does this leads? What a way to promote kendo. I'm I going to be more respectfull towards japanese senseis because some guy behind a reception desk shut the door in my face? AND I'M THE ONE WHO WAS RUDE? Rude? I was f***ing asking. I didn't show up there all dressed up for practice... and no, I didn't show up late. Man, my sensei is japanese, rokudan, not that young, he's going sixties, and he was surprised, even shocked, with what happened.
Rest assure gentlemen: if you ever stop by Lisbon and you want to practice kendo our door is allways open. Yes, I know we are not the Butokuden but hey, as we say here: "If you give all you have, no one can ask for more."

[xvikingx]

Excuse me, I wonder why there's less people, even in Japan, practicing Kendo and getting interested in, say, baseball.
So, you guys find absolutly normal that in order to practice one day, one time, in Japan, you have to get a recommendation letter, or know someone who knows someone that knows the secret handshake that opens... oh, come on, where does this leads? What a way to promote kendo. I'm I going to be more respectfull towards japanese senseis because some guy behind a reception desk shut the door in my face? AND I'M THE ONE WHO WAS RUDE? Rude? I was f***ing asking. I didn't show up there all dressed up for practice... and no, I didn't show up late. Man, my sensei is japanese, rokudan, not that young, he's going sixties, and he was surprised, even shocked, with what happened.
Rest assure gentlemen: if you ever stop by Lisbon and you want to practice kendo our door is allways open. Yes, I know we are not the Butokuden but hey, as we say here: "If you give all you have, no one can ask for more."

No reason to get all excited Mr. Rabbit, I was just trying to help you make sense out of the situation. Everyone here is just trying to help. Also AP has only just started kendo so I don't think he is that knowledgeable on the subject. His words do not hold that much weight *mannnnnn*. (I don't mean to present myself as anyone special, I am just saying....)
I know I'll probably get flamed for this but I think a good majority of the Japanese are extremely rude and I have no doubts thought you were treated poorly. I am sorry you had a bad experience and I hope this doesn't sour you on future endeavors.

[Alex]

The Budo Center is free for all. You need no introductions. You need no appointment. That is the whole point of the dojo. It's where people from other dojos congregate to have a bash with people they otherwise wouldn't get to see. All you need to do is show up and pay 200 yen actually.

I have absolutely no idea what the transcript of that conversation means. Maybe if you didn't speak to the GBD in pidgon English, you would have established that you would have been more than welcome to train there. You only have yourself to blame.

[Usagi San]

The Budo Center is free for all. You need no introductions. You need no appointment. That is the whole point of the dojo. It's where people from other dojos congregate to have a bash with people they otherwise wouldn't get to see. All you need to do is show up and pay 200 yen actually.

I have absolutely no idea what the transcript of that conversation means. Maybe if you didn't speak to the GBD in pidgeon English, you would have established that you would have been more than welcome to train there. You only have yourself to blame.

Of course. It's my fault if that people treated me like s**t. Stupid me. I'm sorry, sumi masen, sumi masen.

[Alex]

Of course. It's my fault if that people treated me like s**t. Stupid me. I'm sorry, sumi masen, sumi masen.

You've entirely missed the point mate. Has it occured to you that he wasn't actually treating you like excrement, but was trying to tell you maybe that the training was going to be held in the the old dojo, NOT the new one. Or maybe he was trying to tell you that you DON'T get changed into your bogu in the lobby, but in the dojo. Or maybe he was trying to tell you that as it is a free for all, they DON'T supply you with gear like they might in a private dojo. Or maybe he was pointing at a clock telling you it is NOT time for training yet. Or maybe he was trying to tell you that it was at 7:00 every day, but NOT on that particular day. NO could have meant a lot of things rather than "NO you can't train you stupid dumb-arse foreigner" which is obviously the way you took it.

Very sad. You missed out on a great training with lots of great sensei. Training at the Kyoto Budo Center? Too bloody right mate!

[Usagi San]

You've entirely missed the point mate. Has it occured to you that he wasn't actually treating you like excrement, but was trying to tell you maybe that the training was going to be held in the the old dojo, NOT the new one. Or maybe he was trying to tell you that you DON'T get changed into your bogu in the lobby, but in the dojo. Or maybe he was trying to tell you that as it is a free for all, they DON'T supply you with gear like they might in a provate dojo. NO could have meant a lot of things rather than "NO you can't train you stupid dumb-arse foreigner" which is obviously the way you took it.

Very sad. You missed out on a great training with lots of great sensei. Training at the Kyoto Budo Center? Too bloody right mate!

I get your point. Of course I wanted to do kendo with all the great senseis who practice there. Why would I carried my bogu to the other side of the world? I know, I mean... I want to believe it was actually just a BIG misunderstanding. But we should not forget that martial arts are, maybe, the most known cultural export of Japan; wasn't it about time they also realize, specially in important places like the Butokuden, that they attract peolple from all over the world, and they should not expect everyone of those who go there to speak japanese?
I'm just saying...

By the way, I find the kata book you translated and annoted (can I use this word? From annotation?) excelent, "An usefull everyday tool for all the commited kendokas."

Peace, mate.

[Alex]

Cheers mate.

Send me a mail if you're back this way. Heaps of places to get whipped at your pleasure!

[LNGUYEN]

Did you speak Japanese to him or English? If you travel to Japan or any other country, you should know some (does not have to be alot) native language. How come foreigners come to some countries and expect people speaking English to them and then when that is not happening, they got mad and think the native is impolite to them and treat them like sh.t. Not every Joe speaking English fluently beside his own language.

[KhawMengLee]

Peace, mate.

Cheers mate.

Send me a mail if you're back this way. Heaps of places to get whipped at your pleasure!


Hahaha...KW forum has turned Aussie! Seriously tho, my Sensei over here said it should be no problem for anyone to train at the Kyoto Budo Centre.

I can't wait to start work in Hong Kong so I can fly over once in a while to train:D

[Alex]

Hahaha...KW forum has turned Aussie! Seriously tho, my Sensei over here said it should be no problem for anyone to train at the Kyoto Budo Centre.

I can't wait to start work in Hong Kong so I can fly over once in a while to train:D

Kiwi mate...Kiwi.

[Usagi San]

Did you speak Japanese to him or English? If you travel to Japan or any other country, you should know some (does not have to be alot) native language. How come foreigners come to some countries and expect people speaking English to them and then when that is not happening, they got mad and think the native is impolite to them and treat them like sh.t. Not every Joe speaking English fluently beside his own language.


Ridiculous as it may sound I even bought a book of japanese phrases, you know? Turist stuff. But no. I don't speak japanese. I can speak and read in 4 languages (Portuguese, Castellano (a.k.a. Spanish), French and English) and I can read in a fifth one, Italian, and I'm able to maintain a conversation with someone speaking Catalan (or Occitain). But, no, I don't understand japanese. And that thing of foreigners going to a different country and expect people speaking English, that's the american way.
But, hey, I can ask for cofee in japanese.

Cheers :-)

[stevemcgee99]

I rode my bike up, and saw kendoka getting into their cars. I went up to who seemed most approachable, and asked If I could keiko shimaska iideska?

He said- "finish" and laughed in a condescending way. I asked sensei, nani deska? (this is BAD beginner japanese), he said and gestured he was. I asked "ashita ka?"- tomorrow. He said something and gestured NO. Then he said more, and I heard six words ending in Nichi- and guessed there was practice Mon - Sat, not tomorrow, sunday. I said thatnk you very much. It was beginning to rain and we were standing in the dark, and everyone else sped off in their cars. I mentioned my sensei in CA's name because i had a feeling he knew him, but my american accent probably explained his disinterested look.

Anyway, the next saturday i showed up sweaty about 5 minutes before it started, followed the guys with bogu bags inside paid 200yen and went in and practiced. No big deal. after practice i recognized the senei i spoke to, and he nodded hello and said something, I smiled, but didn't understand. then he pointed to a sign that showed 6 "O's" and one "X", so there you go, no practice sunday.

The second time a couple of people came up and asked me about some things in broken english.
All in all a great bunch of people. Nobody rolled out a red carpet, but i only paid 200 like everyone else, I'm not Schwa-chan!

It seems your assumptions (Usagi) and coping mechanisms are responsible for a miserable time- much like many others whose posts I read and meet here and there.

Japan is not special- wherever you go, you are still the one that's there!

[Hiryu]

Even if you felt that you were only invited to watch, you should have jumped at the chance! Did you have nothing to learn from watching? Go watch with your bogu and just maybe someone will invite you to join in. I can not immagine a dojo where someone would go with their bogu to watch, and would not at least get some attention and questions and maybe an invitiation to join the next day at least.
The receptionist probably had no authority to approve / dissaprove your practicing.

Never assume the gatekeeper is anything more than just that, But never treat them as anything less.

[Kaoru]

Ridiculous as it may sound I even bought a book of japanese phrases, you know? Turist stuff. But no. I don't speak japanese. I can speak and read in 4 languages (Portuguese, Castellano (a.k.a. Spanish), French and English) and I can read in a fifth one, Italian, and I'm able to maintain a conversation with someone speaking Catalan (or Occitain). But, no, I don't understand japanese. And that thing of foreigners going to a different country and expect people speaking English, that's the american way.
But, hey, I can ask for cofee in japanese.

Cheers :-)

Hello Usagi,

hehehe, Watashi no inu onamae wa, Usagi! :D Sumimasen... couldn't help it!

Anyway, I have just finished reading this thread, and I have to say, your attitude greatly needs improving. You know NO Japanese, yet you blame it on the person at the desk?? What did you expect, when you do not know how to communicate, and also, when you have not made the effort for an introduction? Etiquette is really important. Planning is important, as well.

"And that thing of foreigners going to a different country and expect people speaking English, that's the american way."

Excuse me?? That's what I mean about attitude. This was rude.

You yourself, said this:

"wasn't it about time they also realize, specially in important places like the Butokuden, that they attract peolple from all over the world, and they should not expect everyone of those who go there to speak japanese?"

Think about what you say before you post, please. You just contradicted yourself with that. It is not an "American" issue. It's an "individual person" issue.
Anyone can have the tendancy to think this way.

Please... get rid of the ego. Stuff just happens, and it was a miscommunication, I am sure, since you do not speak the language. Don't be so quick to blame others.

Kaoru

[Nanbanjin]

I have trained at many Japanese dojos in Japan and have always been welcomed warmly.
However sometimes dojo have special training (for example pre-competition) and I would not be surprised if I was turned down sometimes.
I have never just rocked up to a dojo and said "hey let me train". If I did I would also not be surprised if I was turned down.

My suggestion would be to check with your local kendo organisation before you travel to Japan. I am sure there will be people who can get you introductions to dojo all over Japan. This is especially important if you are not confident with Japanese language.
If you take this approach you might even receive offers of accomodation etc.

I hope you weren't too rude to the poor guard you met. If you were you will have only made it more difficult for the next westerner to come along.

[JSchmidt]

Having just come back from a 3 week kendo/holiday in Japan, it does indeed sound like you approaced it the wrong way.
True, some dojo's wants introductions first (This goes for Japanese people who wants to practice there as well!) and some are also weary of foreigners, but it took a Japanese (non-kendo) friend of mine 2 phone calls to arrange a practice in the local police dojo. (I had 2 other practices scheduled that day and couldnt make it)
A tiny bit of preparation either before you left or before you went to the dojo would most likely have sorted everything out...even just asking at the place where you were staying if they could contact the dojo would have sorted it out.
I would never have travelled that far with a bogu (which is annoying as hell to travel with), without making some kind of prior arrangement...and I most certainly wouldnt expect people to understand english.
Jakob

[Onara]

Excuse me, I wonder why there's less people, even in Japan, practicing Kendo and getting interested in, say, baseball.
So, you guys find absolutly normal that in order to practice one day, one time, in Japan, you have to get a recommendation letter, or know someone who knows someone that knows the secret handshake that opens... oh, come on, where does this leads? What a way to promote kendo. I'm I going to be more respectfull towards japanese senseis because some guy behind a reception desk shut the door in my face? AND I'M THE ONE WHO WAS RUDE? Rude? I was f***ing asking. I didn't show up there all dressed up for practice... and no, I didn't show up late. Man, my sensei is japanese, rokudan, not that young, he's going sixties, and he was surprised, even shocked, with what happened.
Rest assure gentlemen: if you ever stop by Lisbon and you want to practice kendo our door is allways open. Yes, I know we are not the Butokuden but hey, as we say here: "If you give all you have, no one can ask for more."


Ah, misunderstanding is so easy to begin and so hard to end...

[canadasword]

Usagi-san: I can understand your frustration. Just imagine living there. Anyway, I agree with the others. Misunderstanding and miscommunication on both parts. Japan is not like other parts of the world. It is rather unique that way. Some say backwards, some say totally screwed up,... but it is what it is. Next time, try to get an intro from someone AND get a Japanese friend to go with you. They will get you in. About some of your statements, I just want to give some insight so your next trip may be more fruitful.

So, you guys find absolutly normal...Normal? Whose idea of normal...? Portuguese normal or Japanese normal?...

that in order to practice...you have to get a recommendation letter, or know someone...Actually, traditionally, this is the custom; in Japanese society in general and especially in traditional Japanese dojos.

where does this leads? No leads, just the way it is in Japan.

What a way to promote kendo.I don't think they really care, to tell you the truth. To them you're just another gaijin thinking they own the place and thinking they can get what they want just by demanding it.

I'm going to be more respectfull towards japanese senseis because some guy behind a reception desk shut the door in my face? Careful, 2 totally separate issues here.

AND I'M THE ONE WHO WAS RUDE? Rude? I was f***ing asking.
Doorman is just doing his job. And probably isn't paid much for it. Think he cares?

if you ever stop by Lisbon and you want to practice kendo our door is allways open. Fabulous attitude. Unfortunately not all places are the same.

Japan is a great place to practice if you know how to get what you want. It takes tact, understanding, and patience. Do a little research on Japanese customs and social etiquette before going. Will help you have a more enjoyable experience.
Good luck next time.:)

[mad_god]

This summer I went in Kyoto. I flew 14 and half hours to fulfill an old dream: to visit Japan, and ocasionally practice some kendo. I talked to a police officer who was kind enough to show me where the Kyoto Butokuden is. I went there ask them if I could pratice kendo with them. The conversation was as follow:

ME - Kendo keiko?
GUY BEHIND DESK (GBD) - Hai, seven o'clock.
ME - Me kendo keiko?
GBD - No, you see.
ME - I bogu. I kendo keiko.
GBD - No, you see.
ME - But I...
GBD - NO. YOU SEE.

End of conversation. I didn't even try to practice again while in Japan.
Is it like this in Japan? Because I've practiced kendo (and other martial arts) in dojos all over the world and I've been wellcome everytime I did it. In Japan I expect everything: hard jigeiko, endless kakarigeiko... hell geiko, but this...

No self introduction, name of organization you belong to, neither "yoroshiku onegaishimasu"???
Next time check your manner when visit someone's dojo. It's not playground.
By the way, maybe it was a kendo "class" session for registered people that day. Not an "opened" keiko day. Could be?

MAD GOD

[Usagi San]

No self introduction, name of organization you belong to, neither "yoroshiku onegaishimasu"???
Next time check your manner when visit someone's dojo. It's not playground.
By the way, maybe it was a kendo "class" session for registered people that day. Not an "opened" keiko day. Could be?

MAD GOD

Hey man, I already said that problably I was wrong. I said I was mistaken. I found an obstacle and couldn't surpass it. My fault. Are you happy?
Why the hell did you dig this up? This thing is two years old.
By the way, I know a dojo is not a playground.

[Gonzo Nakayui]

I went to the Butokuden with a Dutch friend, we didn't ask any questions, we didn't pay the fee, we went straight into the locker room, said hello, changed, played a full hour of great geiko, got some good pointers, drank beer, and had a great kendo night. Keep things simple, know your limits and fight with the shinais you have. Life is short, don't make any unnecessary problems and just enjoy yourself, amen!