Tsuki as a main attack [Archive]

NigelSponge

16th June 2008, 10:29 PM

I've been getting some nice tsuki's on some of my buddies in keiko lately, and occasionally, through a second or third one in there if the first doesn't land well. The friend who is my main tsuki victim (cuz hes kinda small lol) told me i should try it in taikai but only one, not multiple (which makes sense to me, cleaner looking etc.) I not particularly against only one tsuki, but i was wondering what you guys think about it. I kinda see it like, you can go men 10 times in a row (throughout the course of the match) and no one would notice. But if your last 10 attacks were all tsuki everyone would probably be aware of it.
Some people go kote all the time, do, men of course is the primary target for most kendoka, is tsuki just as viable a main attack as the other 3, but people just don't utilize it as much?
Thoughts etc.?

Exia00

16th June 2008, 10:31 PM

I think it's because it's the most dangerous attack of them all. without proper control you can potentailly kill them....

NigelSponge

16th June 2008, 10:35 PM

lol, forgot about that part. but i mean, i think part of the reason its considered to be so dangerous is because people don't use it that much (because its considered dangerous) so once they do use it, its not natural, making it harder to do correctly.

Paburo

16th June 2008, 10:43 PM

Badger

16th June 2008, 10:44 PM

I have this view. I always try to get a tsuki in jikeiko if I can. I think the most important thing is not to jab but to do it gently and not tense up when you do it. If you do, that's when it will go off target and become rigid and hurt if you miss.

LarsCW

16th June 2008, 10:50 PM

I was told that if you would try tsuki it would be wise to go for it in a nidan waza

so then it would be a tsuki men for example.

I personally don't like to do tsuki.

I haven't done it enough for starters and I want to get my kendo at a higher level before starting this.

NigelSponge

16th June 2008, 11:08 PM

tsuki is very hard to land on spot with proper kamae, very hard to convince the shimpan that is a good scoring shot, and yet it is very easy to parry. katate tsuki is even more dangerous and risky than all of the other waza together, because if you miss it leaves you like an open book. i dunno what kind of level you think you will fight against in your shiai but considering you live in japan you'll probably lose in like 10 seconds if you start doing only tsuki... (unless youre naoki eiga, in which case you'll only need two tsukis to end the match, not several lol :D :D). if you live somewhere else with a fairly decent kendo level i think you'll get creamed as well....? lol.

now seriously, if you repeat ANY waza more than 2-3 times in a row youre asking out loud for ojiwaza. what do you mean 10 men in a row nobody would notice?! lol, no way....
Well 10 times is a bit of an exaggeration =P Also Im not asking about this cuz i want to start doing only tsuki haha, i like my men, kote, do, just fine.
I guess what im trying to inquire about is, if we all did however many tsuki for suburi, then more tsuki during waza, then more tsuki in jigeiko (IOW doing tsuki everytime we would normally be doing men,) wouldn't it theoretically be as reliable as our men strike? And if so, why don't we do more tsuki!?:jaguar:

turboyoshi

16th June 2008, 11:34 PM

[...] wouldn't it theoretically be as reliable as our men strike? And if so, why don't we do more tsuki!?

In terms of your skill at execution, yes. In terms of scoring, I still think no. It's still the easiest waza to defend against. For that reason, tsuki will always require better timing and seme than other waza.

sean

ShinKenshi

16th June 2008, 11:51 PM

Well 10 times is a bit of an exaggeration =P Also Im not asking about this cuz i want to start doing only tsuki haha, i like my men, kote, do, just fine.
I guess what im trying to inquire about is, if we all did however many tsuki for suburi, then more tsuki during waza, then more tsuki in jigeiko (IOW doing tsuki everytime we would normally be doing men,) wouldn't it theoretically be as reliable as our men strike?I'm a little surprised you're practicing tsuki at ikkyu. Frankly I think your time might be better spent working on other aspects more appropriate for your level.

And if so, why don't we do more tsuki!?:jaguar:Because you could kill or seriously injure someone if you miss, which is why you generally don't start practicing tsuki until you're further along. Can you say with confidence that you have enough control over your shinai as an ikkyu to not worry about crushing the person's throat or severely injuring their neck? I for one can't say that so I'm staying away from tsuki until I hit sandan at least. Have a chat with your sensei about this before doing more.

Kapplow

17th June 2008, 12:34 AM

It's still the easiest waza to defend against.

I don't understand how tsuki(or any waza) is the easiest to defend. To me it all depends on seme, who's doing the waza, what my body is doing, maai, etc.

Trent

17th June 2008, 01:01 AM

I am one for tsuki waza, mind you I do not use it often, if at all unless we are doing it as part of kihon training. Time when I do do tsuki waza, I try to incorporate it into a seme type advance. e.g. from issoku itto, small fumikomi with slight katate tsuki (not to full stretch to make contact)to try to get a reaction out of aite, then kote, dou or men.

As part of Nidan waza, I think that tsuki is a very viable technique, particularly if you can a) manage your distance incredibly well or b) can cut from close to your opponent. As a scoring waza itself, I think that it may be difficult to score off because you actually have to not only land it perfectly with everything in place, you also have to destroy your opponets kamae, i.e. make them fall back - hard to do if your opponent has good strong kamae.

kurisu

17th June 2008, 01:14 AM

With the high number of up and coming jodan players, I think tsuki is a must for everyone. In some places it's ok to start using tsuki after a year of training (shodan), so don't be shy, start working on your tsuki today.

Neil Gendzwill

17th June 2008, 01:19 AM

I don't understand how tsuki(or any waza) is the easiest to defend. To me it all depends on seme, who's doing the waza, what my body is doing, maai, etc.It just is. It's the smallest target, with the least margin for error. It also doesn't have the momentum of a swing behind it so even the slightest of deflections will cause the aite to miss.

AlexM

17th June 2008, 01:25 AM

Some people go kote all the time, do, men of course is the primary target for most kendoka, is tsuki just as viable a main attack as the other 3, but people just don't utilize it as much?
Thoughts etc.?

It depends on how lousy your tsuki is and how lousy it looks.

Someone who does a nice tsuki can probably get away with doing it multiple times in shiai (although you probably wouldn't want to). The rest of us just try once or twice to see what will happen.

I wouldn't call dou-uchi the kind of technique you can do regularly in a match either. People who do dou randomly without creating an opening are worse that people who do tsuki randomly: The risk from a bad tsuki is minimal from a proper distance (close in it can become grounds for hansoku), the risk of getting hit in the elbow from an out-of-the-blue dou is actually high.

kendokamax

17th June 2008, 02:47 AM

You cant just start thinking to do tsuki all the time against everyone.
It depends on who your opponent is.

nonamehandle

17th June 2008, 09:15 AM

The risk from a bad tsuki is minimal from a proper distance (close in it can become grounds for hansoku), the risk of getting hit in the elbow from an out-of-the-blue dou is actually high.

can you explain the bolded part a little more? do you mean to say that a hansoku can be given for tsuki that is done from too close a distance?

AlexM

17th June 2008, 10:19 AM

I was at a shimpan seminar recently and I remember the chief judge said something about "doing tsuki from tsubazeriai (or really close in) is dangerous and can be hansoku". It's not an exact quote and I might have remembered it improperly but the thrust of the argument (thrust, like tsuki, get it?) was that because there's no attempt to get ippon out of it (no one is going to give an ippon from tsuki at very close distances) it is a forbidden action.

Whether it is hansoku or not is up to the shimpan's discretion I suppose. I would be loathe to give a hansoku on that type of action unless convinced that the intent to injure is there. Then again, if someone jumps on tsuki, even an accurate one, very close-in the person is either dumb as a sack of nails or being nasty, which are both grounds for a penalty. Well, dumb as a sack of nails AND a danger to others... dumb as a sack of anything doesn't qualify for a penalty by itself.

xvikingx

17th June 2008, 10:20 AM

I think some people here are going a little overboard with "the dangers of tsuki". Killed? Come on now, please. We have elementary school kids doing tsuki-men drills regularly. Embrace tsuki. Nothing says I love you like a well placed tsuki, especially when you put your hips into it and give it that extra little drill/twist at the end. Gets me aroused just thinking about it.
I'm no expert on the subject but I have found out the hard way, like others here have said, that tsuki is easy to defend against and if you miss you are wide open for a beating. If you give one you better be prepared to receive one, because it's almost guaranteed that you are going to get one back in return. At this point I only use tsuki in several situations 1) against jodan (duh) 2) against someone who isn't paying attention to their center 3) a poke to show someone I mean business or to get someone who keeps a close maai to back off. Men is the money move, especially on someone shorter. If you keep plonking in men on them from outside of their reach they are going to really starting feeling the distance you create.

Kagerou

17th June 2008, 10:33 AM

I think some people here are going a little overboard with "the dangers of tsuki". Killed? Come on now, please. We have elementary school kids doing tsuki-men drills regularly. .....
I'm no expert on the subject but I have found out the hard way, like others here have said, that tsuki is easy to defend against and if you miss you are wide open for a beating. If you give one you better be prepared to receive one, because it's almost guaranteed that you are going to get one back in return.

Agreed. It's a hard technique so it's not common with most people.

Everyone always uses Eiga as an example of a fantastic tsuki. Why is his so good?

PRACTICE!!!

If you aren't good at it then practice it on the wall. Put a piece of tape on the wall and try to poke it. You don't need to hit a person and feel bad about missing. Once you can hit with accuracy then practice using it on a person. Then you'll learn about timing and opportunity.

Kingofmyrrh

17th June 2008, 10:39 AM

I agree with Viking the most. It's true that tsuki can be hard to hit/easy to dodge. You could argue that this is itself a product of the fact that is relatively little practiced, although it would be pretty stupid to deny that the points that (for example) Neil raises are also true. But more than anything, I think that you would have difficulty with this strategy just because it would give a lot of shinpan a general negative impression. Rather like if you just used katate waza from chudan, or just hit do as mentioned previously, if you use mainly tsuki then it's almost inevitable that shinpan will wonder who this joker is and take a natural bias against you. Not saying it's right, but doesn't mean it isn't true.

xvikingx

17th June 2008, 10:52 AM

I agree with Viking the most.
I can agree with that.

LarsCW

17th June 2008, 12:04 PM

We have 2 ladies at our dojo. They always say take it easy when practising with the ladies they can't take it as hard as the rest.

That's so wrong. During last nights practise one of them totally let me know her kendo is way better then my including a perfectly performed tsuki.

It felt really strange to walk onto a tsuki and I almost fell as I was just comming in for a men.

Trent

17th June 2008, 12:10 PM

[QUOTEPRACTICE!!!QUOTE]

That is just it isnt it. I do not think that a lot of people know how to really do tsuki waza. They try to hit it (jab it) really quickly with their arms. To do tsuki waza properly (as far as I am aware), it is like every other waza, you must use your body to make the cut as well, and the tsuki should be a slight extension on your kamae.

Tsuki waza = an impressive ippon if you can land it.

tango

17th June 2008, 12:11 PM

Kagerou

17th June 2008, 12:28 PM

FWIW...

My understanding is that you want to project onto aite the feeling that he could be tsuki'd at any moment, moreso than the idea that you necessarily really want to try and score with it again and again and again (although, if you attempt it, you obviously want to try and score it!)... If you attempt it and score with it, great, but there's really no need to actually try it a second time. By just attempting it, aite is now looking for it to happen again at some point in the match. When aite thinks he could be tsuki'd at any moment, then you're already a step ahead in controlling him. And this is really what you want.

Good point, and from what I know controlling them mentally is the ultimate in a match.

And now that I've typed that out, I'm not sure if that really addresses the question originally asked or not...

I'd say it did.

The great I AM

17th June 2008, 12:35 PM

FWIW...

My understanding is that you don't want to try tsuki more than once in any one match, so the idea that tsuki could/should be one's "main attack" in shiai is --- according to the experienced folks I've talked to -- don't do it.

My understanding is that you want to project onto aite the feeling that he could be tsuki'd at any moment, moreso than the idea that you necessarily really want to try and score with it again and again and again (although, if you attempt it, you obviously want to try and score it!)... If you attempt it and score with it, great, but there's really no need to actually try it a second time. By just attempting it, aite is now looking for it to happen again at some point in the match. When aite thinks he could be tsuki'd at any moment, then you're already a step ahead in controlling him. And this is really what you want.

One might be able to try it one time and actually get it to score. But to be able to do it a second time in the same match is much more difficult, I think... You might be able to score a second point with men or kote, but tsuki for the second point would be very difficult as that's the attack aite is always going to be looking for.

Apologies for any redundancy there.

And now that I've typed that out, I'm not sure if that really addresses the question originally asked or not...Hmmm, I don't like this idea of "only once per match" kind of mentality. It's very limiting, so why think like that. I know what you mean about the dude expecting a tsuki, but I also think that generally that kind of opponent is a lot lower down the food chain, and if you were going at it with someone who vaguely knows what they are doing in terms of control they would not be suddenly ammend what they are doing because you tsuki'ed them and don't want to get another as they would be taking it in to account with the big picture. If I spent time worrying about a particular technique coming to me after getting it the first time I would get precisely nowhere fast with the rest of my keiko, so I'm not sure this kind of thinking is realistically useful when practising with people higher than maybe even nidan.

I'm not saying go out and tsuki as much as you do kote and men combined, but telling yourself you've only got one because of xyz isn't the way to go either. If it's there it's there, if it's not it's not. Some people might actually be weak to tsuki (in particular the kind of person who thinks that holding an un-moving kamae and standing still is a good idea) so would you only do it once against them? I wouldn't and don't. If they then take it and hit me back then fine, I need a different or better opportunity, and I would look for that as opposed to thinking "There goes my one tsuki for the day!"

tango

17th June 2008, 01:56 PM

Hmmm, I don't like this idea of "only once per match" kind of mentality. It's very limiting, so why think like that.

well, it's been some time since I remember talking about the subject and I may not be recalling it just correctly. There may be something about "if you try it (once) and miss it, don't keep at it"...
probably it's worth keeping in mind that I was, I think, a 2.dan or young 3.dan several years ago when I was being told this, so perhaps that was being directed to "what I need[ed] to know at that time"..

in general, i agree with the rest of your paragraph, but are we really talking about 4.dans and 5.dans and 6.dans adopting a gameplan of "tsuki is my main attack?" ... I don't think so. (The original poster says he is 1.kyu, which brings up the bigger issue --- 1.kyu arguably shouldn't be doing tsuki in the first place, much less thinking about making it his "main attack over men or kote". I THINK you would agree with that statement.)

In any case... I think the main idea is something you touched on when you said:

I'm not saying go out and tsuki as much as you do kote and men combined

...because I was under the impression that that was the essence of the original question (granted, I haven't even gone back to re-read the first post of the thread to verify this)..

The thread title gives me that impression anyway.. "Tsuki as main attack" translates, in my world, into "Tsuki replaces kote or men as your primary choice of attack" ...

Quite frankly, I don't know any instructor who would teach or recommend someone to adopt that as their "style of kendo."

...but that's not saying much since I have very limited kendo experience and don't know a lot of kendo instructors...

I can't imagine any instructor who would do that, although it seems I've heard of many of them using tsuki as a very effective training tool, which is probably another topic for a different thread...

kendokamax

17th June 2008, 02:50 PM

Tsuki is kind of a surprise attack. That's why it can be useful in some situation.
It's a direct hit and it's the fastest possible attack in kendo. But then its the easiest to deflect.
However, I think in some case morotte tsuki can be safer than men uchi...

I think kendo is not really about any main attack but more about main directions of attacks. Using men a few times, opponent keeps on blocking for men kote or do gets open. Using kote a few times, opponent keeps on blocking the kote the men gets open. This is the basic: I go up I attack down. A bit more advance is using ura and omotte. Per example: attack someone who is strong on kaeshi do with a ura-men uchi, by magic your % of completion will skyrocket.

If you want tsuki to be the main attack you can try jukendo...

skilled

17th June 2008, 02:52 PM

I think is an exageration to be that aware about the Tsuki .

I'm Shodan and I tsuki people all the time ..

If you feel like doing it go for it , otherwise you"ll never perfect tha waza

Of Course It's a good idea to do nidan waza for example what I do

Kote-Tsuki Tsuki-Gyaku Do or Tsuki Do sometimes Tsuki then Katate Tsuki if the Tsuki didnt reached the opponent.

xvikingx

17th June 2008, 02:58 PM

Kote-Tsuki Tsuki-Gyaku Do or Tsuki Do sometimes Tsuki then Katate Tsuki if the Tsuki didnt reached the opponent.
Psssh... Is that all?

And you call yourself a shodan?

rfoxmich

17th June 2008, 07:02 PM

"You should not have a favorite weapon, or any other exaggerated preference for that matter. To become overly attached to one weapon is as bad as not knowing it sufficiently well. You should not imitate others, but use those weapons which suit you, and which you can handle properly. It is bad for both commanders and troopers to entertain likes and dislikes. Pragmatic thinking is essential. These are things you must learn thoroughly."
M. Musashi
The Earth Book

mugen no junin

17th June 2008, 07:03 PM

I'm not saying go out and tsuki as much as you do kote and men combined, but telling yourself you've only got one because of xyz isn't the way to go either. If it's there it's there, if it's not it's not. Some people might actually be weak to tsuki (in particular the kind of person who thinks that holding an un-moving kamae and standing still is a good idea) so would you only do it once against them? I wouldn't and don't. If they then take it and hit me back then fine, I need a different or better opportunity, and I would look for that as opposed to thinking "There goes my one tsuki for the day!"

Great point...

I think is an exageration to be that aware about the Tsuki .

I'm Shodan and I tsuki people all the time ..

If you feel like doing it go for it , otherwise you"ll never perfect tha waza

Of Course It's a good idea to do nidan waza for example what I do

Kote-Tsuki Tsuki-Gyaku Do or Tsuki Do sometimes Tsuki then Katate Tsuki if the Tsuki didnt reached the opponent.

oh com'on...I'm shodan too and I can't land a decent dou, a SAFE tsuki it's definitely out of my game

ace

17th June 2008, 07:38 PM

JCM

17th June 2008, 08:39 PM

people talk about safety of tsuki but i dont think its any more dangerous than do or just holding centre.
also the later you leave it to learn obviously the harder it is to put it into practice.
i and other people and my dojo started learning tsuki at niikyu/iikyu,
but told not to use it in shia till shodan

I disagree, a missed Dou is not going to give you a crushed windpipe. It is a safety issue and it could be cause a severe injury.

I also agree with the above post (being shodan myself) that at that level the accuracy is not there in a shiai situation.

mugen no junin

17th June 2008, 08:44 PM

people talk about safety of tsuki but i dont think its any more dangerous than do or just holding centre.

I have to disagree here...do you really think that a off-target dou is the same that a off-target tsuki (i.e. under the tsuki-dare)?

BTW if it's so safe, why they've created this (http://www.chibabogu.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=225) (only for keiko of course, but...)?

NigelSponge

17th June 2008, 09:03 PM

some really good points guys!
I'm gonna have to go with the "if it's there it's there, if it's not it's not" mentality, i definitely don't think you should decide "only 1 tsuki per match"
If men is open, you go men, if kote is open, go kote, same for do, and same for tsuki. If there tsuki is open 20 times in a match, i say go all 20 times. IMO
I also have to agree that tsuki is more dangerous than do, but i also have to add that i think most 'owch' tsuki's come from those receiving them who don't know what to do. Usually if one using the tsuki misses, it will graze the side of the neck, hit the chest, but unless the receiver throws his head back, or in some way exposes his throat, a stray tsuki shouldn't hit the wind pipe. だから, all the more reason to embrace tsuki, teach people how to use and receive it etc.

IOW, tsuki is cool and it gets the chicks, haha.

ReKru

17th June 2008, 09:37 PM

IMO
I also have to agree that tsuki is more dangerous than do, but i also have to add that i think most 'owch' tsuki's come from those receiving them who don't know what to do. Usually if one using the tsuki misses, it will graze the side of the neck, hit the chest, but unless the receiver throws his head back, or in some way exposes his throat, a stray tsuki shouldn't hit the wind pipe.

If performed properly - not just from the recieving side:
http://www.mihalicek.net/obrazky/144.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/Ben.Stabley/RuSr4NPC7gI/AAAAAAAAANs/d-uL2CwcPkA/067.JPG&imgmax=640
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67361616@N00/68847120/

Notice the hand/arm position? It's stabbing horizontally, almost downwards.
That's the way I was shown to perform proper tsuki and before even considering to perform it on a live opponent, it should be practiced with a tskuki patch or a tennis-ball on a rope 10.000 times (minimum).

What most inexperienced people do is charge at you with stiff arms, shinai pointing at almost 45 degrees up, right at your larynx.

http://www.kampfkunst-fuer-frauen.de/Kampfkuenste/Kendo/Tsuki.png

And if you think that's all fun and haha, you've never recieved something like that with moderate speed in the heat of shiai or ji geiko.

NigelSponge

17th June 2008, 10:43 PM

http://www.kampfkunst-fuer-frauen.de/Kampfkuenste/Kendo/Tsuki.png

And if you think that's all fun and haha, you've never recieved something like that with moderate speed in the heat of shiai or ji geiko.
I never suggested tsuki was fun and haha, (i made a joke about the chicks, but i who doesn't? lol) but i wanted to lighten up the topic because i think if all people think about when tsuki comes to mind is hurting someone, they will never use it.

Well i figure if your sensei allows you to use tsuki, they have taught you the proper way to do it (ie. jab upwards when the tsuki is at a 90 degree angle from the floor.). Thats the problem, people don't get taught it enough and encouraged to use it regularly, so once they do try it, they dont execute it well, putting their opponent at risk.

And i agree that one should practice a decent amount on their own, but aren't we always telling people on this forum not to do too much individual repetitions because they will develop bad habits? IMO 20 tsuki's on a real opponent in keiko (more than once a month, which is probably way more than most dojo's will do tsuki practice) is worth about 100 tsuki's with a tennis ball, wall etc. They are pretty different. But instead of doing that, we usually tell people to go home and practice on a tree or whatever and then suddenly be able to do it correctly in jigeiko after however many hundred repetitions, (exaggeration, but trying to make a point =P).

Basically I think to get a good tsuki, it should be regularly incorporated into keiko, which from what I've seen and my, and other dojo's i've visited, it generally isn't. The point system in kendo has four targets, but you would have no clue that tsuki was one of them from observing most keiko, which i think shouldn't be the case.

nonamehandle

17th June 2008, 10:47 PM

Notice the hand/arm position? It's stabbing horizontally, almost downwards.
That's the way I was shown to perform proper tsuki...
What most inexperienced people do is charge at you with stiff arms, shinai pointing at almost 45 degrees up, right at your larynx.

hey ReKru,

i was taught both ways. what you called "proper" tsuki AND what you called tsuki by "inexperienced people". infact, what you consider the wrong tsuki was something that i was taught as the proper way to do it and "stabbing horizontally" tsuki was taught to me as something more expedient to do in shiai to get points. i practice both, but when dong kihon, i always practice what you suggest is the wrong tsuki.

nonamehandle

17th June 2008, 10:59 PM

...The point system in kendo has four targets, but you would have no clue that tsuki was one of them from observing most keiko, which i think shouldn't be the case.

that tsuki should be practiced and that kenshi should utilize it in geikos as well is not in dispute. but there are obviously differences in opinion as to what level of proficiency in kendo one should be before doing it in geiko and to whom one should practice tsuki.

one simple rule of thumb should be you should only practice it against someone who has at least enough expertise to tsuki you back with equal seme and force.

Nigel, the opponents that you mentioned in the first post, do they also tsuki you back on a regular basis as well?

turboyoshi

17th June 2008, 11:04 PM

Thats the problem, people don't get taught it enough and encouraged to use it regularly, so once they do try it, they dont execute it well, putting their opponent at risk.

We were taught tsuki. We were also told "don't use it yet." It seems to me that maybe it's a bit of an ego thing with you. There's nothing fun about being on the receiving end. I don't know about your dojo, but if an ikkyu attempts tsuki on me during jigeiko, I'm gonna knock him on his ass and not be at all polite about it.

sean

Zornocology

17th June 2008, 11:10 PM

http://www.halifaxkendo.org/Archives/Movies/ouch3.gif

ReKru

17th June 2008, 11:13 PM

hey ReKru,

i was taught both ways. what you called "proper" tsuki AND what you called tsuki by "inexperienced people". infact, what you consider the wrong tsuki was something that i was taught as the proper way to do it and "stabbing horizontally" tsuki was taught to me as something more expedient to do in shiai to get points. i practice both, but when dong kihon, i always practice what you suggest is the wrong tsuki.

I don't think what you are taught is really what I was thinking about.
The kihon practice - we do that as well - is mainly aimed to teach you to move in with the hips. The actual stabbing movement is neglected, since at that stage it leads beginners (probably anyone with less than 20 years of Kendo experience) to stab exclusively with the hand and not use the hip.
"proper" tsuki, as I understand it, used both - movement from the hip and then bring the hands up - just like kihon men, where you don't keep your hands at navel level.

Thats the problem, people don't get taught it enough and encouraged to use it regularly, so once they do try it, they dont execute it well, putting their opponent at risk.

And i agree that one should practice a decent amount on their own, but aren't we always telling people on this forum not to do too much individual repetitions because they will develop bad habits? IMO 20 tsuki's on a real opponent in keiko (more than once a month, which is probably way more than most dojo's will do tsuki practice) is worth about 100 tsuki's with a tennis ball, wall etc.

I fully agree with you that tsuki is not taught enough - maybe especially here in the west, where you don't find lots of people that can perform good tsuki themselves.
However, I can't agree with you on the 'practice on live target' thingee.

Our beginners do 500 to 1500 kihon suburi (sensei's decision to improve the kihon level - we used to do less, but that's the mark now) over a period of 6 month practicing 4-6 times a month.

If we take 1k/practice as average, that's 24,000 kihon suburi hitting nothing but air and shinai - and they're not even close to performing a 'good' men, kote or do.
/3 for kote/men/do, that's still about 8k suburi per - that's the minimum I would consider for myself, before I try my stuff on live targets.

nonamehandle

17th June 2008, 11:28 PM

I don't think what you are taught is really what I was thinking about.
The kihon practice - we do that as well - is mainly aimed to teach you to move in with the hips. The actual stabbing movement is neglected, since at that stage it leads beginners (probably anyone with less than 20 years of Kendo experience) to stab exclusively with the hand and not use the hip.
"proper" tsuki, as I understand it, used both - movement from the hip and then bring the hands up - just like kihon men, where you don't keep your hands at navel level.

not quite sure what you are getting at...

i have seen tsuki shown to us (in the manner that i described as being proper) on numerous occasions, including from three different 8-dan (that i clearly remember) at different occasions. they were using live motodachi and not just thrusting in the air.

as i said, the tsuki you described as proper, i have also been taught that, but never has it been presented to me as being the proper way to do tsuki. but rather as another tsuki waza that you do in geiko and shiai situations. there exist differences in how kendo is taught, and this just might be one of them.

ReKru

17th June 2008, 11:51 PM

not quite sure what you are getting at...

i have seen tsuki shown to us (in the manner that i described as being proper) on numerous occasions, including from three different 8-dan (that i clearly remember) at different occasions. they were using live motodachi and not just thrusting in the air.

as i said, the tsuki you described as proper, i have also been taught that, but never has it been presented to me as being the proper way to do tsuki. but rather as another tsuki waza that you do in geiko and shiai situations. there exist differences in how kendo is taught, and this just might be one of them.

Sounds like what I'm trying to get at, just with a different perspective.
Was that "geiko and shiai" tsuki:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/Eiga-tsuki-wiki2.jpg
http://www.kendo-in-action.com/kendo-picture-Eiga%20Naoki-tsuki.jpg
presented as just "another tsuki waza that you do in geiko and shiai situations" or as "bad shiai kendo, that one shouldn't do at all past junior high school level"?

ReKru

18th June 2008, 12:03 AM

Sorry for double post, edit time over...

This looks like the 'proper kihon tsuki' I'm thinking about:
http://www.boston-kendo.com/images/kendo/waza-tsuki.jpg

Again- look at the hands/arms. They're not as horizontal as in the shiai pictures above, but still raised.

I couldn't find any photo with the 'inproper beginenr tsuki' I'm thinking about ('best' example is the guy in white, but still not bad enough), but I've seen it quite a few times 'live'.
It's really the hands at navel level and then an upwards stabbing movement. (maybe if the guy to the left would pull his kamae up from that position and try to hit tsuki).
In an uncontrolled, non-kihon situation that can be pretty dangerous.

nonamehandle

18th June 2008, 12:17 AM

Sounds like what I'm trying to get at, just with a different perspective.
Was that "geiko and shiai" tsuki:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/Eiga-tsuki-wiki2.jpg
http://www.kendo-in-action.com/kendo-picture-Eiga%20Naoki-tsuki.jpg
presented as just "another tsuki waza that you do in geiko and shiai situations" or as "bad shiai kendo, that one shouldn't do at all past junior high school level"?

here are the video links...

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=xPxHVhPPNPc&feature=related

and

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=zqm2m9Igii0

in both situations, eiga is doing tsuki more or less in the manner that i have been taught tsuki (esp. katate) as being the proper one. i do not see the horizontal position of the arm that you mention in post 37. both of eiga's tsukis start from chudan and then go upwards at around 45 degree angle.

katate tsuki i have only done it in this manner. morote tsuki i do it this way and also the way that you are describing in post 37: that is stretch all the way out as if doing men and then downward thrust into the tsuki area (my sensei had called this as "osaka tsuki" anyone also hear this term?). either necessitates that i thrust my whole body in...

when kohais ask, i show them both, and tell them which is considered proper and better for longterm kendo development and why

not sure where your last comment is coming from and what you exactly mean by that...the kohais that i mentioned above are university students and also adults...

ReKru

18th June 2008, 12:47 AM

Totally different movement there. The stills on the previous page are actually from those videos.
Maybe you really haven't encountered the stuff I'm talking about, since the description doesn't ring a bell.

It's similar to this (though this doesn't even look like a planned tsuki, more like an accident):
http://www.kendo.hu/2003/images/tsukimozog.gif

hyuna

18th June 2008, 01:12 AM

My understanding is that, when performing tsuki, the tip should be moving downwards and "cutting" into the tsuki-dare. The angle of the shinai is not the important factor. You can create this tip movement with the shinai at any angle.

JByrd

18th June 2008, 02:22 AM

I practice tsuki in class, and on my own, enough that I can hit it fairly accurately in uchikomi geiko. I rarely use tsuki in keiko simply because I haven't figured out how to set it up reliably. As far as I am concerned, any attack I attempt without a good setup is crap, no matter how well I execute the strike.

skilled

18th June 2008, 03:07 AM

Great point...

oh com'on...I'm shodan too and I can't land a decent dou, a SAFE tsuki it's definitely out of my game

So because you're Shodan it means that any Shodan can't do a decent Do ?O: .

Dude that's bullshit xD

nonamehandle

18th June 2008, 08:59 AM

Totally different movement there. The stills on the previous page are actually from those videos.
Maybe you really haven't encountered the stuff I'm talking about, since the description doesn't ring a bell.

yup, i posted the vids because you posted the stills (i was aware that the stills and the vids are the same). i posted the vids because they show eiga doing what i was taught as the proper way to do tsuki (why did you post the stills?)

my posts was because of your initial post below

If performed properly - not just from the recieving side:
http://www.mihalicek.net/obrazky/144.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/Ben.Stabley/RuSr4NPC7gI/AAAAAAAAANs/d-uL2CwcPkA/067.JPG&imgmax=640
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67361616@N00/68847120/

Notice the hand/arm position? It's stabbing horizontally, almost downwards.
That's the way I was shown to perform proper tsuki...

the pictures that you posted and the description of "horizontally, almost downwards" as the proper way to do tsuki had me somewhat perplexed...but if what you consider proper is the same as the vids below (but i don't see a horizontal position of the arms or downward thrust that you mention...)

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=KSSd1Eimyhs&feature=related

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=01EK_SVgr0k&feature=related

i think then we are thinking of the same thing (which is similar to the image that you posted as improper, inexperienced tsuki on post 37)

the up and downward thrust tsuki that i mentioned that i also practice and which i thought you were referring to as proper tsuki is like this vid

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=66NkCIeoJ3o&feature=related

(this might indeed be considered proper by some, i've just never been taught so)

hope this clarifies things

What most inexperienced people do is charge at you with stiff arms, shinai pointing at almost 45 degrees up, right at your larynx.

http://www.kampfkunst-fuer-frauen.de/Kampfkuenste/Kendo/Tsuki.png

i've "encountered" these, and have "done" these...but these would not be considered tsukis in my view...

NigelSponge

18th June 2008, 09:19 AM

Nigel, the opponents that you mentioned in the first post, do they also tsuki you back on a regular basis as well?

The one kid who i mentioned in my first post, yes he does tsuki me back, always a good match with him =) With others if i use it its probably only once, and usually if use tsuki with someone of lower rank i dont tsuki them into oblivion, in fact i dont tsuki ANYONE really all that hard, I'm not that good at it yet. (I'm not good enough at it to use it as a "main attack" either, thats not what i meant this thread to suggest. I KNOW my tsuki isn't that strong yet. But i wanted to get other's views on the idea of tsuki being used more regularly like the other 3 targets.)
I pretty much only use tsuki when:
A. I think it will land
or
B. I want to give them a little reminder that they have to think about protecting that target as well. Most people don't get tsukied regularly in keiko, so when taikai comes its an effective surprise move i guess you could say. Is it wrong of me to basically say, "hey don't forget tsuki is an option too! =D "? Even if its just a poke, it gets the message across.

We were taught tsuki. We were also told "don't use it yet." It seems to me that maybe it's a bit of an ego thing with you. There's nothing fun about being on the receiving end. I don't know about your dojo, but if an ikkyu attempts tsuki on me during jigeiko, I'm gonna knock him on his ass and not be at all polite about it.

My dojo isn't any different, i was taught about it a little and instructed not to use it. However my sensei told me i could use it a few months ago, i think if he says its ok, then it is. In addition to that i have used it in front of my 7th dan sensei over here in Japan, and he didn't object.

I wouldn't say its an ego thing, as i said in the above, i dont tsuki people, in keiko especially, to send them to the ground, or be like "YEA I JUST TSUKI'ED YOU BITCH!" I just use it when i think I'm able, or when i want to point out that their tsuki is open, what's ego'ish about that?

Honestly it sounds like you have the ego problem if you feel the need to "knock [an ikkyu] on his ass and not be polite about it" for trying tsuki on you, instead of just explaining to him why he shouldn't use it yet. If i were that ikkyu i would respond much better to an explanation than getting sent to the ground.

I dont wanna get into a quarrel with you or anything on ego and crap, i hate when that stuff takes place on the forums, no disrespect intended. :)　

Kingofmyrrh

18th June 2008, 10:15 AM

We were taught tsuki. We were also told "don't use it yet." It seems to me that maybe it's a bit of an ego thing with you. There's nothing fun about being on the receiving end. I don't know about your dojo, but if an ikkyu attempts tsuki on me during jigeiko, I'm gonna knock him on his ass and not be at all polite about it.

sean

This attitude is getting soooooooo old. Last night I used tsuki succesfully on three guys who were all between 60 and 80 in age, and not a single one of them had the slightest problem with it - on the contrary they all went out of their way to acknowledge the point. If you're thinking that perhaps they just didn't care to outwardly show their disapproval, consider the fact that I have been practicing with these guys since before you picked up a shinai. If done competently and safely there is very little chance of anything going wrong - your attitude just makes me think that you are lacking skills at both giving and taking the technique.

LarsCW

18th June 2008, 10:42 AM

The only time I saw a tsuki go some what wrong was because the one receiving reacted totally wrong.

Because she tried to avoid the shinai slipped off and hit her neck.

The guy throwing the tsuki shouldn't have tried it in my opinion. I know how my sensei thinks about these things.

He generally does tsuki for everybody whois comming to practise regulairly and then it's part of the advanced exersizes.

He would then split the group up and lets part of the ones in bogu practise with the ones who aren't in bogu and the other group will then practise the more difficult exersizes.

I think that's a really good way.

Lloromannic

18th June 2008, 11:48 AM

It seems that a lot of people have problems with their ego and tsuki.

Tsuki is in Bokuto ni yoru Kendo kihon waza Ipponme (now, that is a mouthful), it is not a super secret technique only attainable after conquering the demons and getting the Secret Scroll from the sensei.

xvikingx

18th June 2008, 12:00 PM

It seems that a lot of people have problems with their ego and tsuki.

Agreed. People seem to get particularly pissy when tsuki-ed. And for all those nancy-boys who whine about it being dangerous, why not during a hard men or missed do? I received a fair share of missed and jaw jarring tsukis, but they were nothing compared to getting womped in the ribs or getting a men that makes you smell blood in your sinus or makes your knees go weak. People put it on this pedistal, only to be learned at a certain grade and only used on certain people. Nuts to that. I believe it’s as King suggests, a lack of education.

Kingofmyrrh

18th June 2008, 12:01 PM

I believe it’s as King suggests.

Ah yes, that's more like it.

xvikingx

18th June 2008, 12:13 PM

Feels good doesn't it?

Lloromannic

18th June 2008, 12:17 PM

One time i was doing jigeiko with a relative newbie and he caught me completely unawares and morotezukied me. It was a little bit lacking in confidence but pretty good! I stopped just short of yelling "Hell Yeah" and high fiving him. Then I tsukied him back and we had a laugh about it afterwards.

nonamehandle

18th June 2008, 12:26 PM

hmm...there are some situations that i refrain from doing tsuki: against kids, because it scares them and their form suffers because of it; against beginners because it scares them and their form suffers because of it; against some women because it scares them and their form suffers because of it; against some older senseis/sempais who have a negative reaction to it, because i just don't want to deal with the crap. in shiai, i would probably tsuki all of them because it scares them and pisses them off.

the last "godo geiko" i had, i did get to perform more tsuki, but because i got to practice from the "low" side and because the senseis were younger and i presumed that if they are young and they are on the "high" side then they should be prepared to take the heat. i stopped thinking about doing tsuki after a while because i wasn't getting enough practice for my own kendo

as to the dangers of tsuki, lot of it depends on the receiver. here in korea, tsuki is regarded as a 3-dan and above technique, and most people do not know how to receive it safely. that is, lot of the kenshis here have a tendency to tilt their chin back when hitting and also to avoid strikes...this makes it extremely dangerous to do tsuki. i tell people (that i can) that they must keep their chin down...but if they do not, i am not gonna tsuki them and think that it is their own fault for having bad form (there was a time when i used to think this...ah time makes one more soft :)). of course, this might make a good argument for teaching tsuki from early on, but this is a moot issue in dealing with the current situation that i find myself in, and i am not apt to give them a crash course on receiving tsuki...in kihon practice, i do sometime have them practice tsuki on me depending on what they need help in...and this is very rare in my part of the world...having beginners practice tsuki.

LarsCW

18th June 2008, 12:40 PM

Agreed. People seem to get particularly pissy when tsuki-ed. And for all those nancy-boys who whine about it being dangerous, why not during a hard men or missed do? I received a fair share of missed and jaw jarring tsukis, but they were nothing compared to getting womped in the ribs or getting a men that makes you smell blood in your sinus or makes your knees go weak. People put it on this pedistal, only to be learned at a certain grade and only used on certain people. Nuts to that. I believe it’s as King suggests, a lack of education.

I don't mind to be on the receiving end of a tsuki, thought I do think that when you want to try something like this you should first have tried it out.

Like we have exersizes where our sensei and several higher ranking sempai will tell us what to do and what especially not to do.

When my sensei uses tsuki on me then I know that I wasn't controlling center properly.

Last monday I was on the receiving end, I knew she used this technique more but wasn't expecting it.

It keeps you sharp.

The great I AM

18th June 2008, 01:40 PM

In any case... I think the main idea is something you touched on when you said:

...because I was under the impression that that was the essence of the original question (granted, I haven't even gone back to re-read the first post of the thread to verify this)..

Fine, but I was more addressing the point you made of limiting the amount of Tsuki you do purely for the sake of limiting it (from what I read) which I don't agree with. I also don't think that tsuki should be anyone's "Main attack" but like I said, limiting yourself to one only is pointless.

tango

18th June 2008, 02:30 PM

Gibbo... I think you've misunderstood my point.
Or I just wasn't clear enough..

it's not that one is or should be limited to only one tsuki, rather, my point is that it only takes one good attempt at tsuki to achieve a greater goal. That's an incomplete thought, but i'm tired and probably should just give up on this thread... I'm writing this thinking about 3.dan and below players primarily because above that level, it's just a different game..

Is the greater goal: tsuki, tsuki, tsuki, tsuki, tsuki?? ... unless maybe when you're fighting against jodan, (in which case, have at it I say), I think the answer is no.
And this is how I'm interpreting the original post of this thread. I do understand YOUR point now, though (I think)... If one wants to set up an opportunity for tsuki in shiai, then sure, I say go for it. If tsuki presents itself 10 times during a match, go for it 10 times I say. But my main point is that I don't think you use tsuki to set up more tsuki. One might use tsuki to set up anything other than tsuki, and I think it only takes one really good, hard attempt to achieve that goal.

I hope that makes more sense.
I didn't mean to imply that anybody should be limited in any way during shiai. For that matter, if an 1.kyu (such as the original poster) wants to throw 50 tsuki during a match, then great. Whatever. I personaly don't think doing that is really an effective game plan, though (with the noted exception of going against jodan)..

but who cares what i think?

Kingofmyrrh

18th June 2008, 05:06 PM

I use dyna-tsuki to set up for a three flag salute!

Although being more serious I see what you mean now.

mugen no junin

18th June 2008, 05:42 PM

So because you're Shodan it means that any Shodan can't do a decent Do ?O: .

Dude that's bullshit xD

no, of course...I meant that a shodan PROBABLY can't perform a SAFE tsuki IMO...and safe for your aite not for you :smiley:

ReKru

18th June 2008, 05:46 PM

not sure where your last comment is coming from and what you exactly mean by that...the kohais that i mentioned above are university students and also adults...

That was just a question for clarification.
Sometimes, calling something "Shai Kendo" or "Shiai waza" has a derogatory connotation (see discussion here about it). Things that are not considered "proper kendo" or "proper form" - like tilting or pulling your head back to avoid an incoming men or bending your body to hit kote.
The high-school part was just, because such things are seen more often in high-school matches and then disappear as the kendoist 'matures'.

Aiming to have the hands horizontal, rather than stabbing upwards (like a wheel loader movement) is probably not the be all end all of tsuki, but just some intermediate technique to get to a proper form.

i've "encountered" these, and have "done" these...but these would not be considered tsukis in my view...

Hmm.. the guys who do them like this might even think they're doing tsuki.

As mentioned above - all other strikes are practiced several thousand times at the beginner stage, before you are to use them on live targets.
Noone has argued that yet.
Yet with tsuki, doing a few dozen every now and then or starting to practice them in shiai, without the proper kihon practice, makes you proficient enough to use it safely? Sounds odd to me.

hyuna

18th June 2008, 10:28 PM

Is the greater goal: tsuki, tsuki, tsuki, tsuki, tsuki??
Is the goal ever: x, x, x, x, ... (for any target x)?

IOW do you ever walk into the shiaijo planning for your first N attacks to fail, regardless of what target you might be thinking about?

I don't really understand what this notion of "main attack" is supposed to mean. Is it tokui waza? I don't see anything wrong with having tsuki be your tokui waza if you can expect it it to be legal at your shiai.

But it sounds like maybe people mean it to mean "that thing you do when you don't know what else to do." Well, that shouldn't be tsuki, but it also shouldn't be men, or any other attack, for that matter.

NigelSponge

18th June 2008, 10:48 PM

Is the goal ever: x, x, x, x, ... (for any target x)?

IOW do you ever walk into the shiaijo planning for your first N attacks to fail, regardless of what target you might be thinking about?

I don't really understand what this notion of "main attack" is supposed to mean. Is it tokui waza? I don't see anything wrong with having tsuki be your tokui waza if you can expect it it to be legal at your shiai.

But it sounds like maybe people mean it to mean "that thing you do when you don't know what else to do." Well, that shouldn't be tsuki, but it also shouldn't be men, or any other attack, for that matter.

I agree that your attacks shouldn't be decided, planned, etc.

I dont think i even totaly understand what i meant by my initial post. I was kinda just thinking about tsuki and wondering why people don't use it more. The whole main attack thing was kind of a branch off of that, a "what if..." in regards to if tsuki was used as regularly as the other waza. Don't worry you guys, i'm not planning on making a new kendo federation based totally on tsuki and only using tsuki in shiai. I just kinda wanted to have a discussion about tsuki i guess haha. Seems i accomplished that huh?
:ko:

tango

18th June 2008, 11:12 PM

I agree that your attacks shouldn't be decided, planned, etc.

I dont think i even totaly understand what i meant by my initial post. I was kinda just thinking about tsuki and wondering why people don't use it more.

If this is really the primary question you're asking, then I suspect the answer simply is that people, for whatever reason, don't practice it as often as kote/men/dou, and/or they're not confident in their ability to tsuki successfully (with proper form, power, zanshin, etc.), and/or they're not confident in their ability to tsuki accurately.
Moreover, since we're all working so much on kote and men at the very beginning of our kendo "careers," it's maybe something we just don't look for or actually plan to use. By and large, I think this same philosophy also applies to dou in the early stages.

.. I think it really just boils down to that.

turboyoshi

18th June 2008, 11:35 PM

If done competently and safely there is very little chance of anything going wrong -

Isn't that true of anything? My point is that I don't trust an ikkyu to do it "competently and safely." Apparently, neither do many tournament organizers since they have rules prohibiting tsuki below nidan level.

sean

NigelSponge

18th June 2008, 11:42 PM

If this is really the primary question you're asking, then I suspect the answer simply is that people, for whatever reason, don't practice it as often as kote/men/dou, and/or they're not confident in their ability to tsuki successfully (with proper form, power, zanshin, etc.), and/or they're not confident in their ability to tsuki accurately.
Moreover, since we're all working so much on kote and men at the very beginning of our kendo "careers," it's maybe something we just don't look for or actually plan to use. By and large, I think this same philosophy also applies to dou in the early stages.

.. I think it really just boils down to that.

Yea, i mean, i dont think there is a very complicated answer, as you said, but this thread sure gave me something to do in my free time haha.

Obulco

18th June 2008, 11:51 PM

Isn't that true of anything? My point is that I don't trust an ikkyu to do it "competently and safely." Apparently, neither do many tournament organizers since they have rules prohibiting tsuki below nidan level.

sean

It is a matter of learning. Last week, an ikkyu did a tsuki on me during ji-keiko and he got me bad in my right shoulder. He had been practicing tsuki during kihon and was testing it in ji-keiko with me. I am just shodan. I think that it is perfectly fine. Sure, it hurt, but you could tell that he tried it with control and pulled his arms in the waza. If he does not practice with somebody like me, how is he going to learn? My answer to his apology: no need to apologize; tomorrow it could be me missing a kote or a do.

Fai

19th June 2008, 12:07 AM

I personally don't think an ikkyu should be doing tsuki when they should be working on other cuts that are more important and fundamental to their kendo.

ShinKenshi

19th June 2008, 12:14 AM

I personally don't think an ikkyu should be doing tsuki when they should be working on other cuts that are more important and fundamental to their kendo.Agreed, there will be plenty of time to work on tsuki later. Fundamentals first, develop more control over the shinai and kisaki, then move on to tsuki.

Obulco

19th June 2008, 12:28 AM

Agreed, there will be plenty of time to work on tsuki later. Fundamentals first, develop more control over the shinai and kisaki, then move on to tsuki.

I respect your opinion. It is just that our sensei thinks that practicing tsuki in kihon keiko and moderately in ji-keiko is one of the fundamentals.

Fai

19th June 2008, 12:45 AM

If you sensei says so then I am not here to argue ;) just play safe is all I have to say

JByrd

19th June 2008, 03:09 AM

I agree that your attacks shouldn't be decided, planned, etc.

I'm not sure how to interpret that statement. Of course there must be some level of planning, and decision-making. Without them, all that's left is reflex.

As I see it, the problem isn't one of planning or decision-making. It is one of stubbornly pursuing a plan that is not working, and decisions that do not make sense given the reality of the situation.

Zornocology

19th June 2008, 03:44 AM

I'm not sure how to interpret that statement. Of course there must be some level of planning, and decision-making. Without them, all that's left is reflex.

As I see it, the problem isn't one of planning or decision-making. It is one of stubbornly pursuing a plan that is not working, and decisions that do not make sense given the reality of the situation.

wow.... that's a fairly profound statement when you take it out of the context of kendo, isn't it?

Masahiro

19th June 2008, 06:09 AM

This thread has provoked some good thoughts, i just want to add one more thing.

if you practice tsuki in kihon, then you should try to do it in ji-keiko. Granted that you are able to pull it off with a stationary motodachi, other wise forget it. But too often I see people practice some waza or technique but when jikeiko comes, just use one or two waza with the same rhythm and the same timing. It is "ji (free) - keiko (practice)" after all no?

"if it's there then take it" is also good mentality I think but, I certainly am not going to tsuki the shit out of my mudansha kohai. I am there to learn also, and not to be (too) egotistic. (anymore that is.. hahahaha)

MAZ77

19th June 2008, 06:21 AM

Halcyon

19th June 2008, 06:27 AM

But too often I see people practice some waza or technique but when jikeiko comes, just use one or two waza with the same rhythm and the same timing. It is "ji (free) - keiko (practice)" after all no?
Yup. Totally agree.

BTW, the kanji for jigeiko is 地稽古. Together it has the meaning of "free practice," but the kanji for "ji" is actually that for "ground" or "earth."

JByrd

19th June 2008, 06:34 AM

"if its there, its there, if its not its not".

That was my point in an earlier post: Rarely is any target simply "there" if the opponent is any good. Most often, we have to do something (besides simply waiting) to make the target available.

Being able to hit the target is not the same as being able to create the opportunity. Plenty of people can do a decent tsuki in uchikomi geiko, but how many people throw hot tsuki at their opponents without even a thought about opportunity? I would never get mad at someone for drilling my tsuki, but I am not happy when somebody plants a hematoma on my chest because they had no control of center when they thrusted, and no clue that they needed it.

Kingofmyrrh

19th June 2008, 08:05 AM

Isn't that true of anything? My point is that I don't trust an ikkyu to do it "competently and safely." Apparently, neither do many tournament organizers since they have rules prohibiting tsuki below nidan level.

sean

If they practiced then why couldn't they? On the other hand, with less than a year of kendo under your belt I doubt there's much you can do all that competently - but presumably most of the poeple you practice with don't act like idiots by "knocking you on your ass"?

The great I AM

19th June 2008, 12:33 PM

but who cares what i think?I care! Do you need a hug?

At any rate, I get what you mean. I also don't think that the goal of setting up should be (or the process of setting up for that matter) 5 repititions of the same waza or whatever, but if it can be set up, then why not (like you say). Hell, I fought with people before where Tsuki has been the ONLY thing I've seen on them!

And:

Isn't that true of anything? My point is that I don't trust an ikkyu to do it "competently and safely." Apparently, neither do many tournament organizers since they have rules prohibiting tsuki below nidan level. So what do you trust them to do? They need the practise as much as anyone else does in order to do pretty much anything, so I think for me at least that it would be a long time before I start begrudging anyone a tsuki, even if they missed, unless they really ran the risk of causing harm.

I remember one of my boys back home (Hello Blampy!) who had a great tsuki inside of under 2 years. He was ungraded. I'm sure he's the exception to the rule, but without having been given the opportunity he wouldn't be able to do it at all.

Trent

19th June 2008, 01:21 PM

For all those that do not trust kohai to do tsuki, i think that you (and the kohai) need to discuss with each other whether or not tsuki waza is an ok waza to do during jigeiko. I do not think that it is fair on lower ranked kendoka to flat out say "no, no tsuki" - I myself want to be able to practice all my waza so that i can expand my catalog of techniques.

As an aside, does anybody know whether or not tsuki waza is legal in kyu shiai? I have heard from some people that it isnt, but I just wanted to clarify with a broader range of kendoka. Does anybody understand why there may be this limitation??

Lloromannic

19th June 2008, 01:55 PM

Depends on each tournament, your best bet is to ask the organisers or shinpan before it begins. As a general rule it isn't allowed, though.

nonamehandle

19th June 2008, 03:21 PM

oops, this comment was meant to be linked to something else on the last post.

i've "encountered" these, and have "done" these...but these would not be considered tsukis in my view...
http://www.kampfkunst-fuer-frauen.de...endo/Tsuki.png

(i actually don't see too much wrong with this kihon tsuki practice...except for being off target)

this is what i originally wanted to link

http://www.halifaxkendo.org/Archives/Movies/ouch3.gif

ReKru

19th June 2008, 04:47 PM

(i actually don't see too much wrong with this kihon tsuki practice...except for being off target)

Maybe I'm overanalyzing - it's just a still picture so the entire execution of the waza can't be seen - but his body postures looks wrong compared to the 'proper kihon tsuki' I've been shown. Looks like too much hands and not enough hip.

Suiken

19th June 2008, 07:30 PM

There is a rule for the use of tsuki in shiai in the Japanese regulations that states that tsuki is allowed from the time you enter high school (高等学校).

NigelSponge

19th June 2008, 09:24 PM

My only question is why is this thread 6 pages? I think its been decided:

"if its there, its there, if its not its not". If you are of suffucient dan to hit it, and you suck and miss, just be prepared for the consequences.
Cuz its not about the answer after the first 2/3 pages (thats true of most KW threads from what i've seen lol) But im glad we are having a 6 page conversation about tsuki. More talk, next step more practice! :jaguar:

NigelSponge

19th June 2008, 09:26 PM

lol, just pushed it to 7 pages haha

JSchmidt

19th June 2008, 11:38 PM

It's the same with every tsuki thread.
Beginner asks (with a veiled question) if they can use tsuki.
Some people say no, some say yes, others say ask your sensei.
Some beginners go on about how dangerous it is and that everytime you tsuki, god kills a kitten.
Some people have a small, but often ignored discussion about the need for practicing tsuki at kihon level.
More beginners go on about how dangerous it is and that everytime you tsuki, god kills a kitten.

Masahiro

20th June 2008, 01:41 AM

. ... everytime you tsuki, god kills a kitten.

:confused: i thought He only killed kittens when you masturbate? No contest in which one feels better though that's for sure! hahahahaha

mingshi

20th June 2008, 02:02 AM

Not sure why a lot of people think tsuki can be soooo dangerous.

I think more ribs were cracked from sharp dou cuts, more wrist were broken by heavy kote cuts, and more brain cells dead from powerful men cuts.

Time to work on your tenouchi.

If you're so paranoid at getting injured, go get a tsuki protector. But then if you are bitching about a few bruises, why are you doing kendo anyway?

nonamehandle

20th June 2008, 02:14 AM

:confused: i thought He only killed kittens when you masturbate? No contest in which one feels better though that's for sure! hahahahaha

so how many kittens have you killed this week? :D

JByrd

20th June 2008, 03:25 AM

Not sure why a lot of people think tsuki can be soooo dangerous.

I think more ribs were cracked from sharp dou cuts, more wrist were broken by heavy kote cuts, and more brain cells dead from powerful men cuts.

The neck has a lot of delicate anatomical structures that need to remain intact, if you wish to continue living.

DCPan

20th June 2008, 04:00 AM

Personally, I don't think I've seen anything scarrier in keiko than getting tsuki-ed over from a tobikomi men. To think that some high schools actually do that intentionally to get over the fear of tsuki...crazy crazy crazy....

I was tsuki-ed over by a "guest" first day in bogu by a visitor to my sensei's dojo in Taiwan...my sensei showed the guest some "courtesy" thereafter... :D

hyuna

20th June 2008, 05:11 AM

Not sure why a lot of people think tsuki can be soooo dangerous.

I think more ribs were cracked from sharp dou cuts, more wrist were broken by heavy kote cuts, and more brain cells dead from powerful men cuts.

Has anyone been killed by a dou, kote, or men?

Someone has been by tsuki:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=106382&postcount=18

JByrd

20th June 2008, 05:15 AM

Has anyone been killed by a dou, kote, or men?

Someone has been by tsuki:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=106382&postcount=18

Wasn't there a case in Germany where a person was killed by a men strike? The shinai failed, and a shard penetrated the man's brain through the eye. I suppose that it really wasn't the men strike that killed him, though. I may be misremembering the situation.

Zornocology

20th June 2008, 05:15 AM

ummmmmm......

"I am not shure, if this accident, which - referring to my sources - happened not at a Tsuke, is the actual reason for the german 'lack' of Tsuke training, as a japanese contributor to this forum has written."

not to say tsuke isn't dangerous... and it does have a better chance to kill... but this seems to say the guy wasn't doing tsuke

Zornocology

20th June 2008, 05:19 AM

Wasn't there a case in Germany where a person was killed by a men strike? The shinai failed, and a shard penetrated the man's brain through the eye. I suppose that it really wasn't the men strike that killed him, though. I may be misremembering the situation.

yes, THAT is what the link refers to

hyuna

20th June 2008, 05:42 AM

but this seems to say the guy wasn't doing tsuke

ah, you are right. i was confused by the earlier messages in the thread

Roberto

20th June 2008, 06:10 AM

Has anyone been killed by a dou, kote, or men?

Someone has been by tsuki:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=106382&postcount=18

Below they clarify that it wasn't a tsuki, and something similar happened to a Mexican sensei, unfortunately he lost the sight in the eye he was hitted by the shinai pieces, but fortunately he is alive, and til now I belive his kendou is impressive. And as I heard it happeend with a men cut, not tsuki, not anything else than a men cut, and probably a shinai in not so good conditions.

Kendou has some risks, and we are not save from them.

As for my own personal thoughts tsuki should be practiced by kyu grades. That does not mean to perform it during jigeiko or shiai. Tsuki can be practiced from not live targets, passing later to motodachi (like with sensei or senpai). Controling it, and maybe later sensei can say something like "you should try it during jigeiko"... Limiting the tsuki practice as to "not until dan or something blablabla" will retard the progression of the effectiveness. And as it was said before, if there is THERE IS!.. I don't see anything bad about trying to have tsuki as tokui waza.

ReKru

20th June 2008, 04:34 PM

Below they clarify that it wasn't a tsuki, ...

Further below (did anyone actually read that far?), you'll find this:

Beside that, a quite good friend of mine, coach of another University Dojo here in Germany, many years ago had been a few weeks/months in hospital with a damaged Larynx due to a bulls*** Tsuke.

It's one of the more serious accidents in Kendo that I'm aware of. Compared to the other sports I've done (specially football/soccer), Kendo is pretty low on heavy injuries (now, I had a dislocated rib, several sprained limbs and a gazillion bruises - but never anything broken or ripped that would need a stay at the hospital or weeks of rehab).

Lloromannic

20th June 2008, 05:34 PM

skilled

21st June 2008, 05:03 AM

:confused: i thought He only killed kittens when you masturbate? No contest in which one feels better though that's for sure! hahahahaha

HAHAHAHAH +rep for that

AlexM

21st June 2008, 01:34 PM

I don't know about tsuki killing anyone, but the repetitive nature of this thread is going to make me contemplate suicide...

Roberto

21st June 2008, 02:08 PM

Further below (did anyone actually read that far?), you'll find this:

It's one of the more serious accidents in Kendo that I'm aware of. Compared to the other sports I've done (specially football/soccer), Kendo is pretty low on heavy injuries (now, I had a dislocated rib, several sprained limbs and a gazillion bruises - but never anything broken or ripped that would need a stay at the hospital or weeks of rehab).

Yeah, I know, but I was meaning about the broken shinai that pass through the eyeball, that was a men attack and not a tsuki. I didn't mean to say that tsuki is NOT a dangerous attack/target, and while practicing needs to have control of it.. That is why it's need to be practiced, for learning the control.

kendokamax

21st June 2008, 02:11 PM

Tsuki is very dangerous. One day I did tsuki and I died. Don't do it.

Roberto

21st June 2008, 02:15 PM

I seem to remember reading about people dying from exertion during kakarigeiko (plus those hazing inceidents), but really, the fact that these accidents occasionally happen (even though they are so far between that they are negligible) is more proof that tsuki needs to be taught and practiced to prevent accidents. Teach and practice tsuki properly and you won't have bullshit tsuki.

Ey, there is a case, I think it was in Mexico City, about a person who actually suffered a heart infarction during kendou practice. That is why is important to take some medical examinations before decide to practice a sport, for prevention of this cases.

Big One

21st June 2008, 11:45 PM

Then add to the whole picture, the confident to perform tsuki is important too. If you are not confident or totally devote, then it is easy to miss and leave a mark on the collar bone.

Moose

23rd June 2008, 01:54 PM

hayatombo

24th June 2008, 08:11 AM

Greetings. My reply may be unusual, but I hope helpful.
I am primarilly an iaijutsu practitioner, but I have some years in kendo and kenjutsu.
If you explore- though imagination or experiment- facing an opponent with a live blade (even an iaito) you may have a valuable answer. People ask me why I subject myself to cuts (sometimes severe), bruises, broken fingers and concussion. They tell me I'm crazy. However, if not for the risk, what is there to gain? Life is not Playstation. The value of martial tradition is not just for its nostalgic value, but more so for its immediacy.
Anyway, facing an opponent with a live blade produces concern for defence (or fear basically)- and keeping your weapon directly between you and your opponent is the best way to keep from being cut or stabbed. Also, extending your kamae (for instance, to seigan), you can meet and redirect an attack with only a slight motion of your blade, then enter with a thrust as counter. Simplicity is best.

Kingofmyrrh

24th June 2008, 08:33 AM

turboyoshi

24th June 2008, 08:43 AM

They tell me I'm crazy.

I'd say they know what they're talking about. You can take your training seriously, without taking serious risks. You should consider your own safety and also, not be so selfish as to fail to consider your partner's safety.

sean

Alison2805

24th June 2008, 10:16 AM

Anyway, facing an opponent with a live blade produces concern for defence (or fear basically)- and keeping your weapon directly between you and your opponent is the best way to keep from being cut or stabbed.

Really? Facing an opponent with a live blade would produce concern for how long it would take the men in white coats with butterfly nets to arrive.

And yes, I think youre crazy too.

nonamehandle

24th June 2008, 10:42 AM

hey Hayatombo,

are you trying to say that though tsuki might be dangerous, it is good to practice it and to try it and to be conscious of it (both receiving and doing) because this would make your kendo better/more realistic, offer different insight, etc.? trying to tie in what you are trying to say in your post to what has been said in this thread...maybe next time you could be more concise and clearer?

Greetings. My reply may be unusual, but I hope helpful.
...Simplicity is best.

i like simple things too

hyuna

24th June 2008, 11:31 AM

My reply may be unusual
In tone, not as unusual as one would wish.

I would agree that it's important to stay grounded in the original meaning of kendo.

I would not agree that a useful way to do that is to expose people to an immediate threat of violent death.

The great I AM

24th June 2008, 12:28 PM

Neil Gendzwill

24th June 2008, 03:14 PM

Do you seriously do this? Honestly?Judging by his various posts, sounds more like he's around hachikyu in google-fu.

opdonohue

27th June 2008, 03:45 AM

Tsuki is not to be readily done by a kendoka of lower rank. This is just one of the many things I have been taught by my Sensei since I was eight years old. The execution of tsuki is difficult, and as you all have pointed out, potentially dangerous. In my opinion, this early in the game, the Kendoka should trouble himself more with proper zanshin and waza than effective tsuki. Visit the AUSKF (All united states kendo federation) website and review the lists of proper techniques expected of 1st kyu, shodan, nidan etc... Focus your energy on becomming and effective practitioner of the art rather than focusing on the "cool point" as I call it.

tattooedasshole

27th June 2008, 06:09 AM

Focus your energy on becomming and effective practitioner of the art rather than focusing on the "cool point" as I call it.
Is tsuki not part of kendo? Does it lack effectivness? Stop being afraid of a useful waza.
The reason tsuki is dangerous is because it is not practiced. Then people don't practice it because it's dangerous. Does any one else see the circular logic here?
Practice tsuki earlier rather than later. Make it safe by practicing it, and learning the control needed. Don't just bitch cause you don't want a bruise. If you want a "safe" activity, go play badminton. If you're going to practice kendo, at least realize from the get-go that there are dangers, and accept them.

Kingofmyrrh

27th June 2008, 09:52 AM

samurai80

27th June 2008, 11:06 AM

Wow...this thread is...well...it's a thread.

xvikingx

27th June 2008, 11:09 AM

>Taste Great!
Less Filling!
>Taste Great!
Less Filling!
>Taste Great!
Less Filling!
>Taste Great!
Less Filling!
>Taste Great!
Less Filling!

samurai80

27th June 2008, 11:22 AM

I thought I had blocked those commercials from my brain forever. "More tsuki!" "No tsuki!". Heh,heh.

xvikingx

27th June 2008, 11:37 AM

Thankfully someone caught that.

Roberto

27th June 2008, 11:40 AM

Not that it is an excuse but it would appear that you are more likely to die from hyperthermia while practicing kendo than from any badly executed waza.

http://www.budo.ac/kendo/kendo_archves_e/hyperthermia_2006/hyperthermia.htm

Is an interesting article you posted.
Are actually, instructors prepared or know how to prevent it?.. I'm not saying that they aren't, but I've seen in many MA that some instructors get with the "no pain no gain" idea.
Where I live this cases happens (I've never heard one related with kendou), but the pple in general has not the culture of how to prevent and treat this cases. How important is to hydratate during sports/physical activities and the consequences that it might lead.
Thanks for the link, it is really informative though not realted into tsuki, but as important to know.

Suiken

27th June 2008, 12:02 PM

I heard that the son of a famous japanese hachidan - let's call him SY-sensei - died of dehydration on a kendo gasshuku in Japan some years ago.

Lloromannic

27th June 2008, 02:55 PM

Let's ban Gasshukus!

opdonohue

27th June 2008, 03:08 PM

tattooedasshole ,

Thanks for the input. I don't believe I said tsuki wasn't effective, and I don't recall saying it should never be practiced. There's a time and a place for such waza, and it's not for Ikyu. On the matter of being afraid of tsuki. I'm not sure where you got the idea... Kendoka should never be afraid of a proper hit, and although a good tsuki strike is jarring (i think you'd agree), to someone of adequate experience, they are more likely to say to themselves, "wow..good one) rather than "I don't think I want to do kendo anymore". Being afraid shouldn't even be a question, if you're dealing with fear, I agree with you... get out of kendo. My point to the post was to emphasize that beginners (those below Shodan) should focus more on standard waza to build a good base. Those above, such as yourself, can practice and use tsuki at their own discretion. So I agree with you, I guess I just needed to clarify what I meant.

ReKru

27th June 2008, 05:39 PM

The reason tsuki is dangerous is because it is not practiced.

No.
The reason you see so many crappy tsuki is because it's not practiced.

The reason tsuki is dangerous is, because it targets one of the more sensible parts of your body.
Eyes, Throat, Balls, Knees - common self defense crash course targets, even for 4' tall girls.

This would also bring us back to the 'performing tsuki' and 'recieving tsuki' aspect, but that's already been mentioned.

Kagerou

27th June 2008, 06:51 PM

I think this thread is causing severe dejavu in my daily browsing....

It's kinda like the kendo version of the twilight zone. Is this post really new or am I looping through time a la Groundhog day?

mingshi

27th June 2008, 07:33 PM

The reason you see so many crappy tsuki is because it's not practiced.

People who don't like to be on the receiving end of crappy tsuki also sucks at performing it.

Chickens!

Paburo

27th June 2008, 08:15 PM

i just realised this @ last keiko with my mate shochan.... (thanks shochan)

since tsuki is so hard to land on spot, the percentage of aiuchi (say tsuki aiuchi men, or tsuki aiuchi kote or whatever) is minimum.

this basically translates that, if you and your opponent engage into an attack simultaneously, and at a similar level, the one doing tsuki will must likely get his sorry arse kicked. whereas if both opponents engage into aiuchi men and/or kote or a combination of both, the outcome is usually no flags up / dubious point, and a lot more of a safe bet.

bottomline again is: your tsuki better be v.good or you will be rearly screwed in so many multiple ways the kamasutra cant even imagine.

hayatombo

29th June 2008, 06:09 AM

It seems the way I expressed the value of tsuki and use of a live blade was mistated or misinterpreted. My background and twenty years of practicing with a live blade and bokken under teachers like Mitsuzuka Takeshi, Mitusge Saotome, Frank Newton, Paul Sylvain etc. have hardly been mispent. Nor did I mean that once the reishiki ends, there's constant and unrestrained full-contact kumitachi with shinken. I'm surprised more kendoka don't recognize that wasa is often taught, and to a lessser degree practiced- with a live blade. It does not mean that you are actually trying tro cut your partner- quite the opposite, the imporftaance of kime and tomaranu are heightened to the maximum for concern with safety. Naturally, as with kendo or karatedo, injuries happen. In thbis case, the injuries may be less likely. Still, the quality of experience in handling and facing alive blade even under controlled circumstances have a unique value.
I write spontaneously and didn't think my advice was coming across as a suggestion to flat-out use a live blade applied in an actual kendo class. With or without armor, striking with a live blade in place of a shinai is out of the question. Nonetheless the principle value of tsuki is the same.

Kagerou

29th June 2008, 09:48 AM

It seems the way I expressed the value of tsuki and use of a live blade was mistated or misinterpreted.

You have to admit the way you worded it did sound a bit ninjerish. We get sooooo many of them on here that a lot of us assume you're guilty until proven innocent.

Masahiro

29th June 2008, 11:03 AM

i can cut a steak with a plastic knife or a butcher's knife, the "quality" of my training, technique doesn't depend on the instrument I use, nor does it depend (entirely)on who I call my sensei. Case in point, just because you go to Harvard Law school doesn't mean you are coming out idiot proof.

principles of training instruments that resembles a katana (bokken, shinai, iaito. ..etc) maybe the same but the application of these principles are certainly different.

p.s having 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years of experience doesn't make you "credible", it just means you've lived that long. Skills aren't measured in years, sex, race, . ..it's something to be reflected clear as day from your own chikara. (no ... not the brute strength)

nonamehandle

30th June 2008, 02:02 AM

hey Hayatombo,

it appears that you have experiences which might benefit others as well as myself if i could just understand what you are trying to say...would you mind being little more clear in what you are trying to say, esp. in regards to this thread?

if you are trying to say that practicing tsuki is something worthwhile, i don't think anyone here disagrees with you. the point of disagreement lies with the details of when and how and whom to practice tsuki on. as to your views on practicing with live blades, what does that have to do with tsuki and how we value tsuki? or was this just random musings?

considering your experience, i would like to hear your thoughts, but that can only happen if i can understand what you are trying to say.

It seems the way I expressed the value of tsuki and use of a live blade was mistated or misinterpreted...Nonetheless the principle value of tsuki is the same.