Cornell Tournament

[taiwnezboi]

Did any of you go to the Cornell tournament this past weekend? If so, who were you? I was the Taisho from UVA.

[Shazzanzzz]

Did any of you go to the Cornell tournament this past weekend? If so, who were you? I was the Taisho from UVA.

I was chuken for VT. Played you in an overtime match during teams. Hehe, we barely got passed you guys in the prelimineries. I think it was like 1 or 2 point difference.

[Shazzanzzz]

GW and William and Mary and us are talking about having a liittle tournament ourselves sometime next semester, don't know if anyone told you about it. You guys interested?

For now, i think we're only inviting Virginia schools, but, if there is more interest, i guess we can make it bigger, don't know if we can though...

But, anyways, any other schools interested?

[taiwnezboi]

Hey, I remember playing you :) . I'm not in charge of the club or anything so I'll have to ask if we can go to the tournament, but I'm definitely interested. Please contact me about it. My AIM screen name is TaiwnezBoy34 and my email is taiwnezboy34@hotmail.com . Look forward to hearing from you.

[Miyu]

GW and William and Mary and us are talking about having a liittle tournament ourselves sometime next semester, don't know if anyone told you about it. You guys interested?

For now, i think we're only inviting Virginia schools, but, if there is more interest, i guess we can make it bigger, don't know if we can though...

But, anyways, any other schools interested?

Hey Shaz,

Did you guys ever decide which date was better for you all? Feb. 21st or 28th? Oh, I also talked with my Sensei about other teams coming and he said that the dojo can only really accomodate 30 people. (It's a small dojo, smaller than your practice room) Meaning that we'll only have one Court at all times. There will be different divisions i.e Mudansha, Yodansha, Womens and teams.

Given all that, if other schools are interested, we'll have to know exactly how many people they are planning on bringing cause of the size of the dojo. But let me know how many people are planning on coming down from Tech.

P.S. The W&M crew who went to the tournament had a blast as well. I would have come if I were still an undergrad, but I was ineligible :((:

[taiwnezboi]

Miyu: I'm from the UVA club and we definitely want to participate in your tournament. Please e-mail me the information and registration. TaiwnezBoy34@hotmail.com or mjy2r@virginia.edu whichever. We would probably bring 5 people (our team).

[Shazzanzzz]

Mudansha and Yodansha singles would be nice, but it would take away the fun of incredible upsets. I don't think you need the women division, don't think there's enough people :)

I guess so far 4 schools, one team per school should be the limit, else there may be too many people. Because, i know GW can have 2 or more teams most likely, and we probably can too.

You need to set up rules too, like if grad students can participate... GW is too good if that's the case. Some of our grad students really want to do teams, and i think it would be fun if they can do it. So, you need to decide if you want grad students to be on the teams. Hard decision huh, since you're grad, :) I would suggest no grad students, just to keep it simple.

Feb 21th or 28th doesn't make any difference for me right now, don't think it will either.

I guess if size of dojo is a problem, we can always try to go somewhere else, like here in tech, uva, or gw if possible. GMU has a kendo club too i think, we probably should invite them too. So, there could possibly be 25 people just to be on teams, and I know we would have at least 3 or 4 more who would want to do singles, probably more for GW...

[Miyu]

Mudansha and Yodansha singles would be nice, but it would take away the fun of incredible upsets. I don't think you need the women division, don't think there's enough people :)


I beg your pardon! :mad: But even if there weren't that many women, then the women's division would just go by very quickly. :D

Anyway, if we are thinking big collegiate thing with all Virginia colleges, we'll definitely have to have it in a big gym that can hold a large number of people. I know that our practice gym can be rented out for free, so long as an activity hasn't already been scheduled for that weekend. I can check and see if my Sensei would be interested in moving it to W&M (which is only an hour away for you guys but much longer for everyone else). I don't think he'll mind.

Not sure about costs of preregistration or anything and if we were to throw it at Adair Hall (W&M's practice gym), then we really wouldn't incur any costs. Given all that, I don't see a huge registration fee, if any. But what do you guys think about holding it at W&M? If you would prefer UVA or Tech and can find a better deal on rooms, just let me know. Adair can fit two courts and the floor is a nice hardwood flooring.

We would have to worry about getting Shimpan, or ring in anyone who's Nidan and up to judge. Also, we could open it up to not just college teams vs. college teams. I know that my Sensei's dojo would probably want to participate so that would open it up to let other schools to bring more than one team and mix up undergrads with grads.

Wow, I sound like I'm really dreaming about holding a huge tournament. Again, I'll talk with my Sensei and see what he thinks and you guys and let me know how that sounds. Once we get everything pretty much ironed out, we can send out all the invites to the other VA schools.

In the meantime, give me a head count of all eligible tournament goers so I can give my Sensei a general idea of the huge interest. Just e-mail it to me at theravenmiyu@hotmail.com

[isi]

So now you are going to hold a huge tournament and not invite us down from Cornell?

Anyway, it was nice to have you make such a long trip to come play with us.

BTW--I was the guy with the big beard, stopwatch, and yellow flag.

[Shazzanzzz]

sure... You guys from outside VA can come too, i was just worried we won't be able to handle that many people. If we can, it would be great.

[Shazzanzzz]

Maybe we should just foreget about singles, and do college teams and no restriction teams. Teams so much more fun than singles anyway. But, shinpans probably would be a problem if we do teams with no restriction. I thought shinapans had to be 3dan or 4dan and up. I don't really have any preferrance where we hold it...

Man, the only two girls i know in Viringia who do kendo is like you and the girl from our club, maybe you guys can fight it out for first place, and the loser'll still get the second place trophy, haha.

[taiwnezboi]

We're about to get a girl that used to practice Kumdo to start again.. so look out :silly:

[kek]

hey hey hey!! allow grad in teams!! i couldn't come to cornell but being a grad and not being able to participate is a pain!!!....it was quite frustrating at harvard tournie not to be able to participate in the teams!!!..

anyway, the more the merrier...and anyplace would be fine...well..i would of course tell u guys that i'd rather participate at VT (yeah i'm from there;) ) but anyplace would be nice. I don't know about UVA, but the main problem of VT is that we don't have a sensee or high ranked ppl, so we would need shinpans to come down there...

It would be nice if we can do teams and singles....sure teams are funnier but then, well, singles are more relying upon yourself and nobody else so u lose u die pretty much ...

In anycase, any time would be fine next semester. The beggning of the semester will be the best of course since there won't be a lot of work for anybody yet

[AlexM]

hey hey hey!! allow grad in teams!! i couldn't come to cornell but being a grad and not being able to participate is a pain!!!....it was quite frustrating at harvard tournie not to be able to participate in the teams!!!..


I'd like to comment a bit one this. McGill often gets the invites to all the University tournaments in the Northeastern US: Cornell, Harvard and now Yale. We appreciate the invites but the participation rules stop is from attending (that and the distance/money required).

At our last tournament our A-team (and I use the term loosely after being blown out in first round :cry: ) was made up of 3 grad students and 2 undergrads from another university. At the tournament before that it was 1 grad student, 1 undergrad, 2 non-students and 1 CÉGEP (obligatory pre-university in Quebec)student. You can see that a large part of our club is in fact people from outside the university so to speak.

We'd love it if you invited the McGill dojo as opposed to inviting the students at the dojo. I mean, this isn't the NCAA or anything like that.

That's all I had to say.

[Shazzanzzz]

We'd love it if you invited the McGill dojo as opposed to inviting the students at the dojo. I mean, this isn't the NCAA or anything like that.

That's all I had to say.

The reason we have undergrad restrictions is kinda like the reason ncaa has though... We want people around the same age/skill level to compete together. Granted, there still is going to be a big skill difference if it's just undergrads, but, at least it'll be a lot better than having everyone else participating. I do feel bad for the grad students, but, looking at the big picture, i think the undergrad restriction makes a lot of sense. Also, there's plenty tournaments where there is no restriction.

McGill U, maybe you can try to expand your outreach on the undergrad class. Eventually, you'll have enough for a undergrad team. :)


kek, so, team matches are FUNNIER? haha. funny guy.

[Miyu]

Ok, finally talked with my Sensei about the tournament and this is what we discussed:

We could do a college tournament if we have enough teams to participate. Whether or not we would want to restrict it to just undergrads, have a grad and undergrad category, or mix it all up can still be determined at a later date.

If we don't have enough teams to make a team tournament, we can do a regular tourament with individuals and teams so we can have an all day tourney.

My Sensei is going to look into getting shinpan, but we need a rough estimate of the number of people attending as well as their rank so if we need to resort to a regular tournament, what divisions we should have.

After Thanksgiving I'm going to reserve the gym at W&M (www.wm.edu) for the weekend of either Feb. 21st or 28th. Probably the later date if that's open. The gym can accomdate two courts and has locker rooms for changing.

In terms of tournament fee, we're looking at around $15 per person to cover purchasing the medals and trophies and other expenses. This is tenative and it could change, but I don't see it going up too high.

What I'll need for all parties interested in the tournament is to email me the names and ranks of all kendoka who want to attend the tournament be it a college tournament or regular one. Please distinguish between undergrad and grad so I'll have a rough idea whether or not we have enough teams to host a college tournament. My email address is theravenmiyu@hotmail.com.

Hopefully, we'll have a finite idea of what sort of tournament this will be soon and when that happens I'll make sure to let everyone know.

Also, please let me know if you would prefer the bento box lunch to be Chinese or Japanese food. I'd estimate the price for a box lunch including soda to be around $10. You can include that in your email as well so I know which type of restaurant to ask.

If you have any other questions or comments, you can post them on the board or just email me. I remember how this whole thing started when I emailed Shazzanzzz asking if he wanted to have an exhibition match with the W&M team and now look what it blew up into. :evolved:

But have a Happy Thanksgiving folks and I'll keep you updated if I find out any new information.

[AlexM]

The reason we have undergrad restrictions is kinda like the reason ncaa has though... We want people around the same age/skill level to compete together. Granted, there still is going to be a big skill difference if it's just undergrads, but, at least it'll be a lot better than having everyone else participating. I do feel bad for the grad students, but, looking at the big picture, i think the undergrad restriction makes a lot of sense. Also, there's plenty tournaments where there is no restriction.


Alright, this response has been brewing in me for awhile so bear with me.

We just got the invitation to the Harvard tournament a few days ago. We're always glad to receive them and we hope that we will continue to be invited to the Harvard tournament (and the Cornell, and the Yale, etc.). Boston's a great city and we will attend any tournament we can there. However, the invitation really made me realise why we never attend these tournaments (not withstanding factors such as money, time and the dates they are held).

This is my personal opinion by the way, not my club's.

It is specifically because these tournaments are restricted to people of the same level and experience that I would not really go out of my way to attend. I go to tournaments to fight people that are better than myself, not those at the same level. For me, a tournament is a learning experience: winning is secondary (although I'm very competitive and hate to lose). I would want as many high ranking and competent kenshi present at any tournament (to fight or watch).

Now, I understand it might simply be a problem with ressources (shinpan are tough to find, the more people you invite the more expensive things become, etc.). That's cool. But I simply don't agree with idea of not letting "better" people compete for the sake of making the playing field equal (nothing gurantees that non-undergraduates will be any better than your standard undergrad). I don't want an equal playing field. I want to fight someone with more experience than me: that's how I learn.

I didn't try to get my shodan after one year in bogu because I was an amazing kyu and was winning tournaments left and right. I went up a division when I felt I was comfortable in the kyu division. I did this in the hope that I would get better faster fighting people with more experience.

Make age or experience categories if you feel the need. But excluding everyone except undergraduates just seems like you're taking these competitions a little too seriously. So what if people don't win? It doesn't matter. The prizes are just tin trophies and plaques (eye sores if you want my opinion). Winning is fun but essentially meaningless unless you feel you've lived up to what you are capable off or surpassed what you thought was that limit.

Once again, we'd love to attend these collegiate tournaments... but we need to think that there'll be some badasses there dammit! :D

My two cents...

[Shazzanzzz]

Alex,

You can Still go to the harvard tournament, i mean, you can do the singles tournament if you want to, i think you only have to be associated with the school to be elligible.

While Japan has college tournaments, why can't we have them? What's wrong with having a college only tournament? You're right, it's not all about winning, it's about promoting kendo at the college level and building a college kendo community. The easiest way to do that is to aim at the undergrad population, for obvious reasons. I don't know how you would think restricting to undergrads only for teams is taking winning too seriously.

I don't think you should look down upon on these college tournaments, there are some really good people in there. And about the restriction thing, most tournaments separate the dan levels and kyu levels while these college tournaemtns don't, so, there isn't really an experience restriction.

Anyways, college tournaments are for college kids, so if you think your team can kick everyone's ass in Harvard, go and find out if you can or not. And if you personnally want to prove you're better than all the people who go to these competitions, go and show everyone how good you are. There's no point saying how good you are on the internet.

[Stewart]

Everyone,
Hey, our Vice President is getting pretty lazy so I decided to go out into the big, scary world and meet some people. I'm just wondering who all is going to the Harvard tournament this year. I know things aren't mildly close to being ready, but I'm trying to get an idea of what schools are gonna be there. If anyone here has ever met me before, please let me know. My latest public appearance was as Taisho of GW's B Team =).

[hyuna]

It is specifically because these tournaments are restricted to people of the same level and experience that I would not really go out of my way to attend.

I think your committment to learning is a good and admirable thing.

But here is a response that is a little political and maybe an angle that you had not considered.

Kendo, like many sports, needs participation for people to improve. There is the obvious issue that people need practice partners. But also if one has only a few partners, one gets used to their individual styles and it is difficult to improve in a "real" way. Also, having more people means a larger talent pool to draw on. By encouraging people to participate by having tournaments that are at the novice skill level, one encourages participation in kendo. By encouraging kendo, one enables the creation of stronger kendo players. So, I understand what you mean, but it is self-defeating. The reality is that most people do not want to go to tournaments if they feel they have no chance of winning. If everyone avoids tournaments like this, then the tournaments will not be as successful, kendo will not be as successful, and kendo as a whole will suffer a slow death.

Now, I understand you may feel it is just you that feels this way, and not "everyone," but if you think your position is rational and your reasoning compelling, then there is every reason to expect that most rational people will choose to do the same as you. So it really is "everyone."

Taking care of kendo is not just you performing your waza correctly. It is also taking care of the dojo, taking care of the kendo community, and taking care of the community at large. If nothing else, you should keep in mind that some of those people in the tournament will be sensei in decades to come. Even if they are at or below one's own level now, is it not one's responsibility to help them become the best kendo players they can be? Is it also not our responsibility to our kohai to teach them to respect the efforts of others instead of teaching them elitism by dissmissing one's peers as unworthy? I phrase this harshly because I want to be clear--I do not mean to say that you feel you are above the others in the tournament. But actions speak louder than words, and we must walk the path, not just think it.

Mind you, I do not feel that kendo should be compromised to make it popular. That is not taking care of kendo either. However, purposefully excluding oneself from the community, for any reason, does not seem any better to me.

[taiwnezboi]

Everyone,
Hey, our Vice President is getting pretty lazy so I decided to go out into the big, scary world and meet some people. I'm just wondering who all is going to the Harvard tournament this year. I know things aren't mildly close to being ready, but I'm trying to get an idea of what schools are gonna be there. If anyone here has ever met me before, please let me know. My latest public appearance was as Taisho of GW's B Team =).

I'll be w/ the UVA team at Harvard.

[AlexM]

There is no guarantee that just because you exclude everyone but undergrads you will have a better chance at winning a tournament. All you need is 4 people that took up kendo before entering University (such is the case at U. of Waterloo in Ontario) and it's all over. If you really wanted to ensure a "fair" playing field than make categories based on the amount of time spent practicing kendo (an original concept if ever there was one).

Why can't we have purely collegiate tournaments like in Japan? Simple, not enough people. University tourneys are gigantic in Japan. They have separate tournaments (not divisions) for teams, individuals and women. Furthermore, kendo is sometimes the root to a career in teaching or policing (or teaching the police): there's a reason they're strict about admissions. Tournaments in North America don't have too reflect this because the results are essentially meaningless.

I'd also like to point out that I go to plenty of tournaments knowing full-well that I'm not even going to make the top 8 in my division. I still go, I still have fun watching the Katamas destroy people.

Listen, all we're saying is that it's all well and nice to have collegiate-only tournaments, but our club caters to the entire community. We'd like to come but only a handfull of students could do so (the "organisers" in the club are mostly grads., non-students, etc.). I'll tell the undergrads in kendo about the tournament but it'll be up to them to attend or not (and this tournament also takes place during exam period at McGill).

[hyuna]

There is no guarantee that just because you exclude everyone but undergrads you will have a better chance at winning a tournament. All you need is 4 people that took up kendo before entering University (such is the case at U. of Waterloo in Ontario) and it's all over.

Guarantee? No. However, at the vast majority of universities in North America, you would be lucky to find 4 people who have even heard of kendo outside of the movie theater. Maybe at all. Peterson's lists nearly 4000 accredited colleges and universities in the US -- I don't know how many there are in Canada (and Mexico) -- so one instance of a particuarly strong undergraduate team is hardly reason to call the system pointless.

And, it is not "all over." Maybe a team won't come in first, but there is still competition for second.

But even talking about a strong undergraduate team is likely to be uninteresting, as those 4 people will graduate before too long. Which illustrates one reason why limiting to undergraduates does make a difference. There is a more-or-less automatic time limit for how long people can be in the team that is short compared to some people's 10, 20, 30 years of graduate work. It is also the case that the vast majority of undergraduates are younger than graduate students. It is therefore clear true that the vast majority of undergrads will be less experienced in kendo than grads.

If you really wanted to ensure a "fair" playing field than make categories based on the amount of time spent practicing kendo (an original concept if ever there was one).

I'm sure this would be preferable. I'm equally sure that the advanced categories would have such a trivial number of people in them that it would seem even more pointless. It doesn't matter, though, because I wasn't really talking about fairness. You already said that you don't want to go because they are at your level instead of being above your level. If tournaments were arranged by experience, you wouldn't be allowed to particpate in the divisions that interest you at all. When I said that people want a chance to win, my point was to say that even if being at the same level as the others is a Bad Thing in your view, it is a Good Thing in the view of many others.

I'd also like to point out that I go to plenty of tournaments knowing full-well that I'm not even going to make the top 8 in my division.

Good for you! It again speaks well of your attitude. It isn't, however, what I was talking about.

I was commenting on your statement on the situations where you do not make an effort to compete. You said that you prefer not to go because they are not challenging enough for you. I can understand that attitude full well, I thnk it is perfectly rational. However, my opinion is that tournaments will be more successful with more people in them. Furthermore, I think more successful tournaments are better for kendo (as a whole) than someone not being challenged in a tournament. Therefore, I think people should make an effort to participate.

Listen, all we're saying is that it's all well and nice to have collegiate-only tournaments, but our club caters to the entire community.

A perfectly reasonable attitude. But, again, I wasn't commenting on that.

In your previous post, you specifically mentioned how you were talking about your attitudes and not your clubs, and that was all I was talking about.