"Attack" kendo vs "defense" kendo

[TraversNZ]

Hi guys,
Please indulge a newbie his misunderstandings/insecurtities, but one thing I have found is that when I am responding to an attack (with suriage or debana) I am able to do well, but when it comes to launching my own seme, I come undone.
Would love to hear your feedback - is this common for noobs, or have my past experiences (25 years jujitsu,10 years, judo, 0.5 years aikido) clouded my (uninformed) vision of kendo? I'm all about reacting vs attacking, and need to readjust my mindset. Just wondering if anyone else has gone through this, and what they did. This is also pertinent when considering that after a "cut", quite often I will not go straight through, but out to the side (so I don't get in ayone's way).
Myself, I think it is a confidence, issue, but would appreciate any advice.
Thanks in advance....

[TraversNZ]

Hi - just re-read - the point of highlighting my experience is to add into the question "does other MA influence your prejudices" etc - appreciate it makes me sound wanky - this wasn't my intention, and I apologise to any who saw it this way.
Put it this way - I'm thirty-something, short and balding. Ego doesn't exist on a MA platform. Just am at a point in my life where I want (need) to focus on something with a stubbornness that only a guy can muster,and would appreciate advice from others that have walked this road...
Cheers

[H.Sandsleth]

I don't know it is common. But jj, aikido, judo etc does have the principles of circular motion, deflecting attacks by going off the centerline, etc, and not so much attacking first, straight down the centerline. So it is another way of thinking.

Also, when you are saying that you can't get seme to work, but still do debana and suriage, I guess you do it in an entirely reactive way, like you would deflect a punch. But imo you need seme to get debana and suriage to work properly.

[Martch]

Given your experience in other martial arts you probably have good understanding of counter attack timing. This will come in useful, but as a kendo beginner you have to develop an attacking frame of mind first and foremost and initiate attacks. The reason is that if you just counter you'll always be on the back foot. What you're describing is normal for a beginner, seme takes years to develop, and even longer to understand.

I suspect you're doing debana/suriage to avoid getting hit. Don't. Take the hit, and practice your own basics regardless (unless you're in a shiai or actually practicing a particular oji waza). And remember to run through, you'll probably get shouted at hundreds of times until you get that one right. Good luck!

[Big One]

When you said you are a beginner, I guess that you are Mudansha. At this point, people usually train to attack without thinking, timing, without worry about losing or winning. If you keep training that way, everything else will come in or "click in" later. Right now, you probably worry about losing and winning too much or you may just don't know how to attack like a "Yondan" yet. I reccomemnd setting everything aside and learn it like the rest of us, attacking first.

P.S. You are not the only one with other MA experience.

[Peter West]

2 points occur to me in this regard (in addition to good things already said)

1. Kendo is about a sword fight, one dies or both die. There is no take downs or controls to subdue the enemy, kill or be killed.
2. Oji waza is not defence. Oji waza is a path the sword takes on its way to cutting the enemy. Oji waza is another form of attack. keep up the seme and attack, if he moves first cut him by somehow deflecting his blade, if he doesn't, cut him first. Every movement should be made with the feeling of intent to cut the enemy.

[TraversNZ]

Thanks guys - all sound advice - appreciate it. I'll take it all on board, and keep at it. Guess I should also not try to "over-think" things, too....
Cheers

[1stdan]

Given your experience in other martial arts you probably have good understanding of counter attack timing. This will come in useful, but as a kendo beginner you have to develop an attacking frame of mind first and foremost and initiate attacks. luck!

Damn, I am glad to hear someone say that, I find my self in the same frame of mind as the OP but wasnt even aware of that. I too have several years of being a defensive fighter. It is a large thing to overcome. This post has shed some light on some questions I did not know to ask. If that makes sense.

[Peter West]

Damn, I am glad to hear someone say that, I find my self in the same frame of mind as the OP but wasnt even aware of that. I too have several years of being a defensive fighter. It is a large thing to overcome. This post has shed some light on some questions I did not know to ask. If that makes sense.

With a punch or a kick, if you try to block or evade and are not totally successful you can survive the contact as it has been reduced in power or steered to a softer target. With a sword, if it hits a soft target with little power it can still kill or disable. When confronted by a sword, you act decisively, cut strongly and avoid being cut.

Consider the principle" be prepared to do to the enemy what he is prepared to do to you"

Then you will see that it must always be attack. This is the only defense in these circumstances... a pre-emptive strike.

[Kagerou]

Then you will see that it must always be attack. This is the only defense in these circumstances... a pre-emptive strike.

Exactly! Hurl you shinai at him in sonkyo :laugh:

To the original post. I've been doing kendo for just over a year now and I can sympathize with you. After being good at another martial art then coming in and getting your butt handed to you is difficult to deal with.

I can say your seme problems will get worse before they get better. After a while people will stop treating you like a noob and start fighting you, then your frustration will really drive you nuts. At some point you'll think you stumbled on the secret only to have the next guy hand you again.

I'm sure at some point it starts to come together....well I hope it does.

[Cool Cat]

Greetings! I can also understand where you're coming from. You will have ample time to learn all the waza in kendo. Some of these may seem defensive in nature but all waza in kendo are based on attack and not straight out defence.

This is because if you wait and wait and keep on blocking then you're basically a target waiting to be cut down.

As other people have said, don't worry about being hit as we all get hit at all levels. Just try and open your mind to look beyond simply trying to protect yourself. Put the pressure back on your opponent so that they feel they need to defend not you.

You should join the guys when they come up to Brisbane on Saturday mornings. CC

[michaelm]

Coming from grappling arts to kendo does have some transitional challenges. (Transitioning from striking arts may be different; I don't have this experience.)

In grappling, you're used to having so many physical points of information to intuit your opponent's position in order to manipulate, respond, or attack. In kendo, the same sort of physical conversation is mostly reduced to kensen to kensen contact, and how you perceive and create openings takes much longer to understand and execute.

This is why we beginners should only focus on attacking mentality. The attack interval in kendo is much tighter and requires greater precision than grappling. So if you waste time as a beginner being only responsive (defensive), you'll never build the experience required for a successful cut. The concepts of seme and sutemi in kendo are essential, and as a beginner you don't learn them from responsive counter-attacking, but through initiating attacks aggressively--thousands upon thousands of them.

Unfortunately, I think the best advice is the old cliche, "Empty your cup." Forget what you know and embrace your new invisible white belt.


-michael

[Peter West]

... and what would happen if you both took a defensive stance, each determined only to do something when the other attacks?

As a pair you are not so much using each other to practice on, but offering yourself to the other to invite them to their practice. So you attack. If you attack hard and fast enough you hit him and he learns to defend or attack faster. If he attacks fast enough you receive the same opportunity.

Ji Geiko is about offering your partner an opportunity to practice and thereby receiving an opportunity to practice in return. If you don't offer the most positive attacking stance possible, you are doing your partner a disservice (though of course this needs to be moderated if the partner is a considerably lower grade)

[turboyoshi]

Thanks Peter, that little tidbit seems to resonate with me. It seems that this is especially relevant insight for us ji geiko newbies. I'd rep ya if I could.

sean

[Mr Yellow]

Hi! This is my first post and I found something that was written in an interview with Kiyoshi Nakakura:

Several years ago Nakajima said to me: “Nakakura, I feel tired recently when I do Kendo.” I said, “No wonder you feel tired the way you practice!” Nakajima didn’t like what he heard and asked me why I thought so. The reason was this: He was looking up at his opponent from below. In other words, he was assuming a hunched-over stance. You become tired if you practice in that stance. If you look up at your opponent from below you don’t see the movement of his mind and the initiation of his techniques. Therefore, by the time you see that he is coming to attack you it’s too late. In Kendo as long as you keep striking your opponent you don’t get tired. You become tired when you start being struck by your opponent. This is why I emphasize that you should keep striking. When you stand and adopt a stance, you should stick out your stomach and look down at your opponent as if you were controlling his mind. That way, you read his mind which makes it easy for you to strike him. That’s what I told Nakajima. After practice Nakajima came up to me and said, “Practice became much easier when I did as you told me to. You sometimes say something useful, don’t you”. I said to him, “I’m now more than 70 years old. You have to let me say something useful sometimes.” (Laughter)

As like most people, I struggle as well trying to be more offensive.

Thanks,

[Shazzanzzz]

A read an article from a 8-dan before who is also a MD that he believes kendo to be a sport of reactions.

From what I know, it's not really about being offensive or defensive, it's about being proactive or reactive. You need to proactively seek/force opportunities and react to those opportunities. Think of your opponent's attacks as your opportunities to score and their point of vulnerability, instead of running for the fences.