lowering the sword in kendo kata

[ben]

Does anyone know what the Japanese term for lowering the sword in kata is? I mean that moment at the end of each kata when you "open the sword" and take five paces back. I just received the excellent Kata book by Inoue sensei (props to Alex et al for a great tome!) and there is mention of the movement - correct height, etc - but not the terminology. Neither is there any mention in the Wa-Ei Kendo Jiten. Even the Japanese sensei that I've asked (who shall remain nameless to protect their reputations ;)) don't seem to know.

I heard on the weekend that in some koryu, a similar move is called *urusu* (sp?), which I was told means approx "letting your opponent off the hook". (Thanks Liam ;))

It's no big deal, but I'm just surprised that there's no mention of it anywhere that I can find.

Any ideas?

b

[Neil Gendzwill]

Kamae-ate I think. I may have the romaji wrong but that's what it sounds like.

[Phlebas]

I have heard it called "kamae otuku"... but I may have misunderstood or misinterpreted.

[ben]

Kamae-ate I think. I may have the romaji wrong but that's what it sounds like.


Isn't this the command to assume kamae, as in : "rei! sonkyo! kamae-ate!" ?

[Kingofmyrrh]

You`re looking for `kamae o toku` (構えを解く ). It just means to loosen/relax your stance.

[Yowai]

You`re looking for `kamae o toku` (構えを解く ). It just means to loosen/relax your stance.

They were looking for a specific Kendo jargon noun (which I doubt exists).

[emitbrownne]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I thought the lowering of the sword was to a Gedan position, so that you may maintain zanshin as you step back to a (relatively) safe distance.

I thought the idea is to remain alert and ready until the sword is sheathed (bokken in less offensive posture), and even then still be aware.


Please correct me
:)

[hamish]

Its not gedan, as the idea is to mutually relax (to a point) and back off. As such its not a kamae, and the only thing I've ever heard it referred to is as above, 'relax your kamae'.

Hamish

[Neil Gendzwill]

Thanks for the correction. And yes, it's definitely not gedan. Relax your wrists, and let them turn to the right so that the hasuji (edge angle) is about 45 degrees and the kensen is pointing at your opponent's left knee.

[Alex]

As mentioned above, "Kamae wo toku" is the correct terminology in this case.

[emitbrownne]

... but I thought the lowering of the sword was to a Gedan position
Sorry I meant a form of Gedan... like Seigan is a considered a form of Chudan.

I do turn the blade and point to the opponents knee, but I still thought it was a offensive backing away, not a relaxation.

Have I got the wrong end of the stick?? (bokken? :D )??

[Neil Gendzwill]

I do turn the blade and point to the opponents knee, but I still thought it was a offensive backing away, not a relaxation.
At that point the kata is complete, you are no longer fighting. The position is the same as if you were receiving verbal instruction from somebody - relaxed and non-threatening.

[Alex]

Have you heard about that new book published by KW Publications? I heard it's pretty good. :ponder:

By the way, all proceeds form the sales of the book are being donated to the Inoue Dojo in Shizuoka to help promote kendo. i.e. sending second hand Bogu overseas etc. :grin:

[ben]

Thanks everyone. Kamae (w)o toku. I'll be able to sound that litttle bit more knowledgable now.

:P

b

[kendomushi]

Also note that uchitachi is the leader in this movement as in all others. So shidachi lowers his blade to the same level as uchitachi.

[Karaken]

Does anyone know what the Japanese term for lowering the sword in kata is? I mean that moment at the end of each kata when you "open the sword" and take five paces back. I just received the excellent Kata book by Inoue sensei (props to Alex et al for a great tome!) and there is mention of the movement - correct height, etc - but not the terminology. Neither is there any mention in the Wa-Ei Kendo Jiten. Even the Japanese sensei that I've asked (who shall remain nameless to protect their reputations ;)) don't seem to know.

I heard on the weekend that in some koryu, a similar move is called *urusu* (sp?), which I was told means approx "letting your opponent off the hook". (Thanks Liam ;))

It's no big deal, but I'm just surprised that there's no mention of it anywhere that I can find.

Any ideas?

b

According to John Donohue's "Complete Kendo" It's called "Hodoku". Don't know what it means in Japanese. Any Japanese speaking friends here?

Center

[Kingofmyrrh]

hodoku also means to loosen or something like that. You often hear it used about knots or tied up hair or whatever, but there`s no reason I know of why you couldn`t use it for kata. Neither of the mentioned terms are exactly what you`d call jargon, they`re just everyday words for `relax your stance`. Anyway, hope that`s of some help.

[Yowai]

Frankly, I don't understand the point of non-Japanese people learning too many Japanese Kendo terms (such as this one) if they aren't planning to travel to Japan in the near future. Knowing the sinnpann commands is enough.

[ALI G]

Frankly, I don't understand the point of non-Japanese people learning too many Japanese Kendo terms (such as this one) if they aren't planning to travel to Japan in the near future. Knowing the sinnpann commands is enough.

Itz "shinpan" dumbazz...

[Yowai]

Itz "shinpan" dumbazz...

Your encryption is weakening. I was able to read the post without the key! I prefer Japanese IME loomaji, "dudes." Go back to your "ghettos" and your "homees."

[ALI G]

Your encryption is weakening. I was able to read the post without the key! I prefer Japanese IME loomaji, "dudes." Go back to your "ghettos" and your "homees."
Itz still dozent changez da factz dat youz iz a dumbazz.........................

[Yowai]

Cute! If you ask nicely in standard English, I might honor you with an additional reply. I know that you are jumping up and down in anticipation, but I hope you do understand my position.

[nodachi]

Frankly, I don't understand the point of non-Japanese people learning too many Japanese Kendo terms (such as this one) if they aren't planning to travel to Japan in the near future. Knowing the sinnpann commands is enough.

Because knowing other languages, or phrases of other languages, is helpful.
Because it is a Japanese martial art and thus knowing appropriate terminology is helpful. Analogy, you want the doctor to speak using words like heart and artery, and not that pumping thing or the pipe that takes the blood out of the pumping thing. I know its an exagerated analogy, but if you are going to do something, you should call it what it really is.
Because there are many Japanese who practice Kendo, you will meet them, and you want to be able to understand what they are talking about if they use those particular words. Especially if you get to practice with a sensei from Japan who doesn't speak your own language.

Among many other reasons.

(sorry for feeding the troll)

For those of you learning correct terminology, keep doing it, it will only help you.

[ALI G]

Cute! I hope you do understand my position.

Yah...Bent Overz

Azzume da pozition betty............................................. ...........................

[mingshi]

Speaking of Kamae wo Toku...

Do you lower your sword and then turn the blade 45 degrees clockwise, or do you turn on the way lowering it?

I have seen both versions around. Is there a standard for this?

[Shiro]

Kamae wo Toku...I have seen both versions around. Is there a standard for this?

In my dojo we do it on the way down and yesterday I attended a 1st kyu examination, they did it on the way down too.
So I think that's the standard.

I think that it's the best way to do it, since you can do it in one time. Lowering the blade and then doing it is in two times.
(Note that I'm not a high ranked kendoka and this is only my interpretation of it)

[nodachi]

Speaking of Kamae wo Toku...

Do you lower your sword and then turn the blade 45 degrees clockwise, or do you turn on the way lowering it?

I have seen both versions around. Is there a standard for this?


I've been told that in kendo you lower and turn together. In other arts, such as ittoryu (if I remember correctly), we lower, and then turn, in two steps. Although I don't know if it is different because of different budo, or it's different just because the sensei made it different. sorry

[Karaken]

Speaking of Kamae wo Toku...

Do you lower your sword and then turn the blade 45 degrees clockwise, or do you turn on the way lowering it?

I have seen both versions around. Is there a standard for this?

I haven't ben paying attention to this but all my Kendo Kata video collections only show one motion, noone's turning it after you lower it. Remember, these guys are Hachi-dan senseis demonstrating Kendo Kata. I'd like to believe they know what they're doing.

Center