Ippon Shobu or Sport?

[iwatekenshi]

Ok here's your new thread. The idea of kendo is ippon shobu. Is it or is it not?

[cklin]

Why are shiai sanbon shobu then?

[gszab]

I think sanbon shobu is a sport part in kendo

[stakenaka]

IMHO, I think that kendo is ippon shobu, and should be played as such to make every hit count. The shiai needs to be sanpon shobu for the reason stated by gszab, and to eliminate the chances of winning by a lucky hit. Just my thoughts on the subject...

[alexpollijr]

I'd rather have it as ipponshobu, like the Japanese police shiai.
But I'm not going to make any samurai analogies to support my statement :rolleyes:

[ben]

God bless you alexpollijr! :D

b

[Achilles]

You won't be surprised to hear this, but I'm a fan of sanbon shobu. I like the sporting aspect. Kendo/kumdo is already so unlike real sword fighting that it makes no sense to try to represent it as such. If that's your bag, try the SCA.

[Kuri]

In the beginning when I knew nothing at all (cf now, still close to nothing at all), I watched the Australian Championships. There was one guy that really grabbed my attention. Why? He only did a handfull of cuts, and made them count. That's the skill that I'm aiming for.

If you want to play the percentage game, an all out ballistic attack, somethings bound to stick.

It's ippon shobu for me.

[akihiro]

I think the proper mindset is to approach every encounter as ippon shobu. Yes, nobody (for the most part) dies, but the mental aspect of kendo should not be disregarded. Therefore, in sanbon shobu, one should consider each round (nihon-me, encho) as a separate event even though it is one match.

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by akihiro
I think the proper mindset is to approach every encounter as ippon shobu. Yes, nobody (for the most part) dies, but the mental aspect of kendo should not be disregarded. Therefore, in sanbon shobu, one should consider each round (nihon-me, encho) as a separate event even though it is one match.

Ippon shobu.

Each cut and the opportunity that leads to it, should be treated seperately, just like ippon. Once a point is determined or lost - clear the mind and start for the next one, then the next one and so on.

Richard

[kendokamax]

for me "sanbon shobu shiai" kendo is sport.

and has nothing to do with the differents type of keiko you can do (godo keiko, ippon shoubu keiko, kakari geiko)

hmm anywya i'm happy tournaments are 2 points

if they were only ippon......it would suck to pay 25 $ and drive 500 kms just for one point and 30 sec of kendo.

[Sup]

Kendo is not like a real sword fight.
Before the cut that is Counted as a good one,
you normally have numberous so-called 'misses' which would
have made you/or the opponent bleed to death if
it were a real sword.

'One shot one kill' mentality does seem COOL.
But its like an infantry soldier saying "I try to be one with my gun,
so I DONT use automatic rifles in battles. Just aint my way"
Now I call that a death wish.


I think a kendo Match is a sport. Very much like boxing.
See the opponent move his/her shoulder and u anticipate
an attack and so on. If a boxer went through his training
thinking in terms of 'this is an art of the way of the Punch'
I bet he'd have the mentality of any great Kendokas.

Now, Iaido is totally differant in my opinion. Even though
you never touch anyone with a sword, Iaido is closer to
the 'One shot-one kill' mentality I think

All just my PERSONAL opinion tho :)

Come on guys, some more opinions please!!

[Keith Hong]

I think we should keep in mind where Kendo comes from. People started using bamboo sticks so they could practice swordsmanship in simulations of real fights without getting hurt. Not because they wanted to refine their prowess in bamboo-fighting.
I do Kendo as a form of swordsmanship. Not bamboo stick-fighting. I doubt fencers in the Olympics consider their sport wire-fighting. Sure, techniques develop to take advantage of trappings and rules. But, we shouldn't forget where everything comes from. Otherwise, might as well take up sports chanbara to pretend to be a sword-fighting pirate or go work out at a gym to get some exercise.
In a real swordfight, though I seriously doubt any of us on this forum will ever be involved in one, a person would be mighty cautious about making an attack that, in fact, might lead to getting himself cut up as well. Ai-uchi would be terrible thing, right? My attack should kill the other guy and leave me intact.
Following that line of thought, many of the light, shallow sashi-men and other attacks that are carried out in series without regards to the opponent's attack would be downright unrealistic.
Probably why judges don't count many 'hits' as points. To discourage those small, light attacks that wouldn't be possible facing a person with a real sword. Save your strength.:cool:

[Kuri]

Originally posted by Sup
'One shot one kill' mentality does seem COOL.
But its like an infantry soldier saying "I try to be one with my gun,
so I DONT use automatic rifles in battles. Just aint my way"
Now I call that a death wish.


Aren't the infantry guys that use one shot, one kill called snippers ;) . My impression has always been that their skill makes them highly prized. Is kendo any different?

[mingshi]

I came across an Japanese essay on the history of Kendo and Iai. There're a lot of funny things on pre-war Kendo.... and this is the relevent section (Japanese):-

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete-Athene/8236/JissenBudo.htm

The information is actually from a published book, "History of Nippon Kendo", by Otsuka Tadayoshi. Here's my brief+incredibly crappy translation (reguarding our subject of "ippon shobu")---
*****

Kendo's Concentration on Practicality

During the Pacific War, xxxblablahxxx... There was significant concentration on the applicability of Kendo. From then onwards, the use of a light-weight, long (both the hilt and blade) shinai was abolished. There's a cry for shinai use that resembles the actual usage of a real sword. Of course, a thrust into the face is still invalid. Blahblah.... Here're the common points for "Practical Kendo":--

>>>Denial of 3-point fights/Sanpon Shobu; Ippon-Shobu-ization (Just one chance... the dead cannot stand)
>>>It's okay to strike Hidari-Kote/Gyaku-Kote
>>>Katate-waza is invalid/not counted (BUT valid when right hand is underneath tsuba. Since if you hold the end of the tsuka (not the center) with one hand only, on impact the tsuka will break)
>>> Any cut executed from Tsuba-zeriai by going backwards is not counted
>>>Promotion of outdoor Keiko & Shiai
>>>Appreciation of cuts/waza starting from very long distance with running footwork
>>>Grabbing the ground with your toes & soles outdoor
>>>Using shinai of the same length+weight of real swords (i.e. within #36)
>>>Encouraging alternative soldier-style shiai --team vs team in a single shiai
>>>Encouraging cutting competition
>>>All cuts should be big and the sword in a circular movement (no-no for wirst/shoulder-turning cuts --fast cuts are too light; Have to use upper-body and upper-arm to cause effective destruction)
>>>Shiai does not start from sonkyo, but from the initial standing Rei

Now that's Wartime Kendo~!

[James R]

Ippon Shobu or Sport was the thread titlle, to think that an article in issue one of Kendo World should cover the taboo subject of drugs in Kendo should go some way to answer the poll question.

I did not start to practise Kendo because I believed I was taking part in a sport........ maybe I have got it wrong!

[Kenshi]

>Encouraging alternative soldier-style shiai --team vs team in a single shiai<

Yes.

[ Thanks for the trans Mingshi :) ]

If some people choose to do kendo as a sport then I feel - as most do here - that they will never manage to go to the depth of kendo (or budo) itself. Perhaps - like most who do kendo for an extended period - their opinion will, I hope, evolve.....

Anyway, my food has arrived.

[kendo_chick]

I believe that the goal of the higher levels of kendo playing is to get the perfect point and in that respect, ippon shobu will always show the better (for lack of another word) of the two players. I do however believe that this is only true in very high levels of kendo play.

I do agree that for the sport aspect of kendo, there are such thing as lucky first points (I've gotten a few and taken a few). In that respect I rather sanbon shobu for individual matches.