blocking do

[mystic_kendoka]

i've done 2 keiko's now, and im pretty worried about being hit on do. what is the correct way of blocking do? im not worried about leaving my men open and everything, coz right now, im being hit do like every 10 seconds :(...
is blocking with the elbow the only way?

[emitbrownne]

Dont block, attack them.


Best defence is a great offence and all that :D

[Shazzanzzz]

i've done 2 keiko's now, and im pretty worried about being hit on do. what is the correct way of blocking do? im not worried about leaving my men open and everything, coz right now, im being hit do like every 10 seconds :(...
is blocking with the elbow the only way?


to block do, hold chudan, the shinai should stop it, not elbow.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Don't think about blocking right now. Think about why you are losing doh. A common mistake is trying to attack men from too far outside and raising your arms very early whilst doing it - leaves your doh very open. How about you ask your sensei why your doh is being hit?

[isi]

mystic_kendoka

Is it one person that keeps going for doh, or is it everyone?

[akacz]

Yes dont worry about that. The best way to defend against do, is as someone said to hold chudan. In time you will learn some new waza and it will be much easier to defend. My favourite waza against do is uchiotoshi and then men.

[mystic_kendoka]

Is it one person that keeps going for doh, or is it everyone?
not everyone or anything, but not just one person either, its just tht if im hit lets say 10 times, 9 of those will be my do, and only 1 my kote or men... actually i haven't been hit on kote at all in either keiko's...

[mystic_kendoka]

to block do, hold chudan, the shinai should stop it, not elbow.
wat do u mean chudan? u mean holding it vertical against my side, handle up, tip down?

[mystic_kendoka]

Yes dont worry about that. The best way to defend against do, is as someone said to hold chudan. In time you will learn some new waza and it will be much easier to defend. My favourite waza against do is uchiotoshi and then men.
aaaaaaargh please everyone, im very new to kendo, please do not use japanese terms... i will NOT understand them... better to learn tho, so cld u please name the terms then explain? so wat is uchiotoshi?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Holdonaminute... didn't you say you'd only been doing kendo for 3 weeks? What are you doing practicing in bogu if it's been that short a time and you don't even know what chudan is yet?

[Yowai]

Drop your elbow down as fast as possible when you sense a do strike coming. Do strikes are extremely easy to block with the arms unless your form is very crooked. Don't worry about nuki and kaeishi do at your stage. They rarely score anyways.

[mystic_kendoka]

yea, 4 weeks now... the reason i was in bogu twice is mostly coz im in belgium ,and belgium is a small country, so unfortunately we dont have much members at our club, and every now and then, only a couple of people show up, so we have some 'fun' lessons... this is, either keiko, or tag with bogu on, i've only been in a keiko twice and it was against other beginners... and they still manage to hit do... i've only been able to block it once, and it was with my elbow, it was effective but the pain makes me want to avoid it...

[Yowai]

If your opponent hits your elbow, he/she apologizes and the pain goes away. If the opponent doesn't apologize, the pain goes away through annoyance or fury.

[mystic_kendoka]

yowai, that just confuses me... it makes sense, but since its coming from you... im not sure wether to trust it...

Question to other people, how do you feel about this?/??

[Yowai]

yowai, that just confuses me... it makes sense, but since its coming from you... im not sure wether to trust it...

Question to other people, how do you feel about this?/??

They will say something attributing to some sillyness such as "the shinai is a sword and can't be blocked with the elbow."

Let us take the following example:
The Kendoist A goes to strike do because B's do was open.
B can block do with his arms if he drops his arms fast enough.
Some people complain that arms shoudn't be used to block do and the fault lies with B if B's arm was bruised and A shoudn't apologize.
This logic will generate a conclusion that B should intentionally leave his do open for striking because once A initiated a do strike. B has to freeze and keep whatever suki open.

If we apply the above logic to these examples, we get more ridiculous results:
A missed tsuki is a head-bobber's fault since by ducking and weaving, the tsuki was hard to hit. The head-bobber should keep the head still when a tsuki is initiated to escape injury.
A missed cote hitting the unarmored forearm is the victim's fault. The victim should have kept his cote easier to attack such that missing would be more difficult.

[mystic_kendoka]

so i shld block with my elbow?

[Neil Gendzwill]

so i shld block with my elbow?

No, you shouldn't block with your elbow. No blocking for you, not doh, not kote, not men. You shouldn't even be in armour, much less trying to block anything. But if someone puts you in armour just for fun, don't be concerned in the slightest with any cuts you receive - just worry about the ones you are giving.

Regarding ducking: Yowai's head is up his ass, as normal. You shouldn't duck your head, because it's a bad habit, gets your kamae out of wack, and wouldn't work against a real sword anyways. But if you do duck and your opponent misses, it is his fault, not yours - his attack shouldn't have given you the chance to duck. So you shouldn't duck, and you (eventually) should be able to hit a ducking opponent.

[Yowai]

You shouldn't duck your head, because it's a bad habit, gets your kamae out of wack, and wouldn't work against a real sword anyways. But if you do duck and your opponent misses, it is his fault, not yours - his attack shouldn't have given you the chance to duck.

Hi Gendzwill. I really appreciated your humor.

I want a citation when you repeat my statement right after my post. Not giving credit where it is due is very rude. I forgive you though. Living on a flat piece of fertile wheat producing land must make you nuts. Are you a CCRAP supporter? I heard they have a foothold in that section of that country from all those gun-slinging farmers.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I want a citation when you repeat my statement right after my post.
What have you ever said that was worth quoting?

[Yowai]

What have you ever said that was worth quoting?
You just quoted me. Boke and tuttukomi.

The statement in question is where you assert that all my statements are rubbish, but you repeat the same conclusion that I have reached.


But if you do duck and your opponent misses, it is his fault, not yours - his attack shouldn't have given you the chance to duck.

[Neil Gendzwill]

We didn't reach the same advice - yours was to duck and block. Mine is not to duck and block. The only thing we agree on is that a missed attack is not the fault of the blocker/ducker.

[Yowai]

Neck spasm movements may not be acceptable in higher dan grades, but in competition bobbing and weaving is a acceptable tactic to negate would-be points.

Since the subject of this thread is a third month bogu player, I won't sidetrack this discussion any further, without first typing that last statement as an undebatable arguement before I stop.

[amatsuda]

Drop your elbow down as fast as possible when you sense a do strike coming. Do strikes are extremely easy to block with the arms unless your form is very crooked. Don't worry about nuki and kaeishi do at your stage. They rarely score anyways.

Hey Sh*thead......Do you even realize the implications of negligence and liability in your supposably humourous post?

Two things: 1. It's not f*cking funny... and 2. What happens when this guy actually takes your advice and injures himself? What if he breaks his arm or elbow? What if he injures his arm to the point that he cannot work and has to go on disability?

These kind of injuries already happen accidentally in Kendo...In fact, I have to live with a broken elbow the rest of my life....The elbow was hit by a missed Do strike and the tip of the elbow broke off...See that indentation in the middle of my elbow on the attached picture? That's where the tip of my elbow used to be...This is probably what will happen if he heeds your advice....

I don't find it f*cking funny that a guy will have to take time off or quit Kendo altogether if he listens to your advice. However, it would be poetic justice if someone takes your advice, gets injured and tracks you down through your IP Address and files litigation against you for negligence.

You'd better get your head out of your ass and be a little more mature and responsible.

Mystic - Take off the bogu, learn the basics and don't worry about blocking at this point.

amatsuda

p.s. - Don't ever piss me off again.

[Yowai]

When I was young, I fell off a fence I was sitting on and hit my head on the cement. Hard. The implications, implications....

Your arm injury was a collection of unfortunate coincidences. I have my share of welts on my arm and also memories of odd times when the kensen hits a nerve directly, and I spend several weeks not able to do what I like to do because my arm woudn't move smoothly anymore. Maybe my bone will get chipped in the near future just like yours (although that seems to have a very low probability).

What's my point? I don't like situations where one is accused of being irresponsble using an unfair example. If I suggest to a person with a blister problem to drive to a store to buy a bandage, and that person gets in a car accident on the way there, am I liable? Mystic_kendoka is a person that can make decisisons for him/herself as to what he/she wants to do. I made a suggestion, not a undisputable order under an authoritarian government.

You made a threat to me so I get the feeling you don't want an arguement. Your anger at your injury made you lash out without adequate prior thought.

[Shazzanzzz]

yea, mystic_kendoka, don't ever block with your elbow, listen to your sensei, why don't just ask him instead of asking us. Listen to the senseis on the board too, don't listen to Yowai, he's on crack.

If you have questions about your kendo, ask your sensei, don't post a question on the forum. 1- because he's your sensei, it's kinda rude to ask someone else questions when you can just ask him. 2-He can actually help you help you, while we can only tell you stuff. 3-you get bad advice like Yowai.

Don't ever block do with your elbow. Yowai is stupid, if you can sense a do coming and have time to drop down your elbow, why don't you just stay in chudan? Yea, ask your sensei what chudan is.

[Yowai]

Don't ever block do with your elbow. Yowai is stupid, if you can sense a do coming and have time to drop down your elbow, why don't you just stay in chudan? Yea, ask your sensei what chudan is.

Apparently your elbows are raised and out of the way in your chudan.

[Shazzanzzz]

Apparently your elbows are raised and out of the way in your chudan.

apparently you don't know kendo. If you hold chudan, shinai will stop the do cut, not the elbow.

[samurai999]

Your arm injury was a collection of unfortunate coincidences. I have my share of welts on my arm and also memories of odd times when the kensen hits a nerve directly, and I spend several weeks not able to do what I like to do because my arm woudn't move smoothly anymore. Maybe my bone will get chipped in the near future just like yours (although that seems to have a very low probability).

What's my point? I don't like situations where one is accused of being irresponsble using an unfair example. If I suggest to a person with a blister problem to drive to a store to buy a bandage, and that person gets in a car accident on the way there, am I liable? Mystic_kendoka is a person that can make decisisons for him/herself as to what he/she wants to do. I made a suggestion, not a undisputable order under an authoritarian government.

You made a threat to me so I get the feeling you don't want an arguement. Your anger at your injury made you lash out without adequate prior thought.

You still aren't getting Matsuda senseis point aren't you? You DID give an irresponsible example no matter what the circumstances. Mystic can make decisions for his/herself, but he/she should listen DAMN well to the sensei especially he/she being only 3weeks into kendo. He/she doesn't know the scope of what can happen in terms of injuries. Since Mystic is new, Mystic can actually take your humorous post the wrong way and ACTUALLY block with his/her elbows (which is not good in the first place) Note the question Mystic asked 5 posts into this thread!! Plus don't you think that blocking do with your elbows INCREASES your chances of something bad happening to your arm or elbow? Please post something more intelligent next time. By the way, your screen name really reflects you. Maybe it should be donkan or aho...


Tim

[amatsuda]

When I was young, I fell off a fence I was sitting on and hit my head on the cement. Hard. The implications, implications....

Well there you go the mystery is solved.....I guess that would explain the reason for your nonsensical comments on this board......


What's my point? I don't like situations where one is accused of being irresponsble using an unfair example. If I suggest to a person with a blister problem to drive to a store to buy a bandage, and that person gets in a car accident on the way there, am I liable? Mystic_kendoka is a person that can make decisisons for him/herself as to what he/she wants to do. I made a suggestion, not a undisputable order under an authoritarian government.

YOU ARE BEING IRRESPONSIBLE FOR GIVING ADVICE LIKE THAT; ESPECIALLY TO A BEGINNER. BTW, your example is illogical and does not demonstrate adequate prior thought.


You made a threat to me so I get the feeling you don't want an arguement. Your anger at your injury made you lash out without adequate prior thought.

There's one thing I can't stand is people who misuse or make a mockery of Budo; especially Kendo...You post stupid shit and this time you wrote something that could have caused injury to another Kendoka..Then your follow up post is not even apologetic..

You want to argue?

Bring it on.....I'm right here.......I'm not the one hiding behind a screen name that translates into "Weak" trying to be a goof....You probably don't even have the guts to tell us who you are or where you practice.

amatsuda

[nodachi]

Do not block with your elbows. If it were a sword, that wouldn't work. In shiai (a match), it will make your kendo look crappy and make the judges lose confidence in your ability and maybe not give you points because you have to resort to a piss poor defense.

Attack faster. If you raise your arms to attack and then get hit in the doh, you left yourself open for too long and should have hit men already. Maybe you are lifting up, pause, then striking. The pause is death. The up lift of the shinai and the down movement (better to think forward though) should be in one motion. No pause, this will speed you up a little.

Other people have told me to strike and move in quickly on your opponent because it will mess up their distancing so they don't get the point. You get credit for trying to be offensive and attacking, and you will be too close for them to hit with the monouchi (top third of the shinai) so they won't get the point. You still do true kendo and look good, and your opponent won't get the point. No need to block the doh this way.

Worry about the more advanced waza (techniques) later, these basic suggestions will not protect you from the doh getting hit, but the hits won't count so don't worry. As a beginner, one shouldn't worry about getting hit. You should only worry about you attacking at proper times with lots of spirit and very big/true form and not small nippy kendo. Big kendo will help you develop better. Small kendo will stunt your growth.

[Yowai]

...
Tim

You should know by now that I wasn't joking.


apparently you don't know kendo. If you hold chudan, shinai will stop the do cut, not the elbow.
If his shinai was holding center in chudan, why was his elbows raised for his opponent to hit do? The entire premise of this bloody argument was that Mystic was raising his elbows to block a men cut (so obviously not holding chudan), and was struck a do cut.

When my opponent attacks, if I am unable to do a oji-waza, and if I threw away my chudan center, I will furiously flap my elbows down to stop a do point if my opponent thinks there is enough of a suki for a do. This rarely happens. In roughly ten 5-minute jigeiko sessions per practice, I would say I get smacked in the arm roughly every third practice, and the cut was usually from a beginner. The beginners are well aware that they are going to hit my arm before the shinai lands, and will slow it down. They usually feel guilty about it and do less dou cuts (which is rather good for them since do cuts are rather useless at that stage).

I do come across assholes that do fast hard swipes that end up hitting my elbow because a suki large enough for a succesful do point to happen didn't exist. The worst part is that they are annoyed that I blocked their furious swings with my elbow.


By the way, your screen name really reflects you. Maybe it should be donkan or aho...
This is coming from a person with a screen name that contains "samurai"?

[Shazzanzzz]

If his shinai was holding center in chudan, why was his elbows raised for his opponent to hit do? The entire premise of this bloody argument was that Mystic was raising his elbows to block a men cut (so obviously not holding chudan), and was struck a do cut.



Why would you drop your elbow to block? Just take the hit like a man, and accept the suki they exposed of you. If you can react quick enough, going back to chudan is the same as dropping your elbow, why don't you just try it Yowai, maybe it'll work.

[ALI G]

You should know by now that I wasn't joking.

Ahz....Youz Kendoz iz da jokez...gotcha....

[kawa]

Hey! Yowai..It was a stupid joke, but equally dim-witted for using 4 letters verb in Amatusda respond. Amatsuda is Matsuda sensei?? (Assuming 5+dan?) You should have more self-control than using such ghastly language.

[Yowai]

You want to argue?

Bring it on.....I'm right here.......
amatsuda

Tosiwaikutudesuka?


BTW, your example is illogical and does not demonstrate adequate prior thought.
But it was an exaggeration of your logic.

Why did you even reply to me? If you want to reply to me, stop calling me names and making threats. Zionism discussions on usenet are cleaner than this.

[samurai999]

This is coming from a person with a screen name that contains "samurai"?

Yes, I truly believe you deserve that screen name for the comments that you posted. You obviously don't know jack. (or kendo for that matter) Safety is #1 at our dojos. Who would do kendo if they knew they were gonna get badly injured? Not too many people. If there is a chance that you could mislead somebody into going down the wrong path IN ADDITION to getting themselves hurt, then people like matsuda sensei will be on your ass like white on rice. And do you really believe that a samurai is some 100% pristine, honorable, gracious person/warrior that shouldn't use the words "donkan" and "aho"? Those words are tame compared to the words used by some other people. Maybe you are right, but at least I don't post irresponsibly. You better look at the word "Samurai", look at a true warrior, look at yourself and realize how you truly do not deserve the word.

And if you weren't joking, then the nonsenseical post you made is THAT MUCH MORE irresponsible. Plus are you a sensei? Didn't think so. So you shouldn't really be telling people what to do in the first place.

Tim

[Yowai]

Plus are you a sensei? Didn't think so. So you shouldn't really be telling people what to do in the first place.

Tim
Are you? This is becoming way too easy for me.


Safety is #1 at our dojos. Who would do kendo if they knew they were gonna get badly injured?
Well gee, if you think blocking with the elbows is too dangerous, don't do it! Wow.

[samurai999]

Are you? This is becoming way too easy for me.


Well gee, if you think blocking with the elbows is too dangerous, don't do it! Wow.

Then don't mislead people like that. In addition to being too dangerous, I think that it is the wrong thing to say to beginners. And did I say that I blocked with my elbows(and for the record, I don't)? No. This is becoming way too easy for me!

As you can see in my profile I am not, but I always point out that what I say is my own opinion and to be taken with a grain of salt. And I make sure that I never give out advice like yours.


Tim

[ALI G]

don't do it!

So dont do itz.................Kindz ofz likez youz Kendo.......Youz not doingz it anymorez cuz youz a weaklingz andz a quitta..............................mannnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnn...............

[mystic_kendoka]

If you have questions about your kendo, ask your sensei,
Usually i do, but because she's organising a tournament this week, i wont be able to see her for at least 2 weeks :(

[jmarsten]

maybe Mystic Kendo and Yowai are the same person as well as Ali G Certainly Mystic Kendo's writing style is similar. The profile says from Korean living in Belgium. Mystic Kendo's writing is American English and does not have the errors common to a non-native speaker of English.
In any case, with the number of beginning kendo people on this forum, it is really irresponsible to suggest using your elbow to block with. Those of us with damaged elbows and bone chips floating around should be enough proof this is a bad idea. I always suggest to the less experienced to wear an elbow pad and I keep one handy for myself when practicing with certain populations.

[mystic_kendoka]

ok... i am now going to prove this ridiculous idea of me being yowai... ali g i wldnt mind, but YOWAI? come on.. anyways, i speak english better than any language coz i've been going to a british school ever since i was 3 (www.antwerpbritschool.org)... i also speak korean but not as well as english, i also speak dutch fluently, and a bit of french, so tht just about sums up why i can speak english fluently :)... please never accuse me of bein a troll :(

[mystic_kendoka]

o btw, its mystic_kendoka, not mystic_kendo dno why this matters... but anyways...

[olaf]

mystic_kendoka,

(sorry to interrupt the Yowai-bashing) Blocking do:

1. The obvious. Move faster, attack more. Don't block. :)

2. Hold your chudan no kamae and make sure it's rock-solid, dead in the center. The opponent won't have an opportunity to hit do, and if he does charge in anyway, he'll end up getting a tsuki from you.

3. The flashy "blocking" technique. Swing your shinai back so it's pointed towards the ground, over your right shoulder, so the flat part of the shinai/blade is facing the outside. If the opponent strikes do, your shinai will block it. It's an unconventional technique, but believe it or not, it is taught in one of the All-Japan Kendo Federation (ZKNR) books on kendo basics. I think it was volume 2. As far as I know, most people frown upon seeing this technique...

4. Uchiotoshi-waza! As your opponent comes in for do, smack his shinai out of the way, defeating the attack. If only I could do that...

[mystic_kendoka]

mystic_kendoka,

(sorry to interrupt the Yowai-bashing) Blocking do:

1. The obvious. Move faster, attack more. Don't block. :)

2. Hold your chudan no kamae and make sure it's rock-solid, dead in the center. The opponent won't have an opportunity to hit do, and if he does charge in anyway, he'll end up getting a tsuki from you.

3. The flashy "blocking" technique. Swing your shinai back so it's pointed towards the ground, over your right shoulder, so the flat part of the shinai/blade is facing the outside. If the opponent strikes do, your shinai will block it. It's an unconventional technique, but believe it or not, it is taught in one of the All-Japan Kendo Federation (ZKNR) books on kendo basics. I think it was volume 2. As far as I know, most people frown upon seeing this technique...

4. Uchiotoshi-waza! As your opponent comes in for do, smack his shinai out of the way, defeating the attack. If only I could do that...


thank you i think this sums up best my question
:D

[MaxHanzo]

About blocking do uchi, it's common to use uchiotoshi. Uchiotoshi means to strike upon the opponent's attack.

打ち落し
打ち, uchi, it means literally to strike.
落し, otoshi, means to drop, to fall.
Uchiotoshi is a strike that makes the opponent's attack to fall. In other words, you make a strike on his attack. Uchiotoshi Do is similar to kote uchi, but instead of hitting the opponen'ts kote, you hit the opponent's shinai that is comming upon your do.

Another way I see people blocking do is blocking by using the tsuka, but I think this is completely wrong.

To block do with your arms is surely the worst way to avoid do uchi. Your opponent doesn't win ippon, but, your arms may be hurt. So, if you don't wish to be hurt, do that or try dogging the attacks.

[mystic_kendoka]

dogging the attacks?

[Pokie]

block with your elbow..especially use the tip of ur elbow so u can have maximum movement recovery after u block it...im only joking, that's how you get yourself out of kendo for months for having a chipped cartilege. if someone likes to use do heaps..trying faking men...if the opponent falls for it very quickly go backward then forward then hit men or kote...or try uchiotoshi as mentioned before..strike it down as it is about to hit ur do...or maybe u can try catching it...but if the opponent gets u at the point of no return in a cut i.e. point of full extension...then just hope he misses or better he hits with the wrong part of shinai. but if ur up for it, work on ur men more...so ur cut will strike him before he gets his do on you

[Kaoru]

No, you shouldn't block with your elbow. No blocking for you, not doh, not kote, not men. You shouldn't even be in armour, much less trying to block anything. But if someone puts you in armour just for fun, don't be concerned in the slightest with any cuts you receive - just worry about the ones you are giving.


Hi Mystic Kendoka,

I agree with Neil. When I did Kumdo, and had first begun, the first thing the teacher did, was put me in bogu, and I didn't know any better that I ought not be in bogu. It is irresponsible to do to a new student of only 4 weeks. Just because the group is small is not a valid excuse for that, IMHO. Now that I am doing Kendo, I see exactly why I ought not have been in bogu that early. But, since you are put into this sort of situation, go with what Neil tells you. I am not in bogu yet, so I can't give you any other advice than that. Sorry!

Oh, in Korean, Chudan is called Chudanse. That's one of the very few things I remember from my former Kumdo dojang.

Kaoru

[mystic_kendoka]

is it spelt 주단세?

[Kaoru]

is it spelt 주단세?

Hehe! I could read that. Cool. But, to make sure, I got my Korean dictionary out to look up Chudanse, and it's not a very big one with tons of words, but it did have chudan and chudun in it. I found out chudan means silk and chudun means stationing(Why that, I don't know. That's what the dictionary said. I think it's more like stationary, maybe.). So, I think I had the spelling wrong. Then, I tried a search on the web, and of course, came up with nothing, because finding anything on Kumdo terms is ridiculously hard. And, I only know a little hangul, so I can't, darn it, read the Korean Kumdo pages.

It's probably "chudunse" which means you'd have to get rid of the "a" character and replace it with the "u" character, so the middle character reads "dun" instead.

I'll look more, and see if I can find out more Korean terms.

Kaoru

[mystic_kendoka]

u can speak/read korean? kewl... where r u from?