in Isshu Jiai...sune???

[Phil]

is sune a valid point for a kendoka who fight against naginata?
we have seen some in the world naginata championship but they never get a flag for it...

if it is what does he need to get the point?


Phil :evolved:

[xvikingx]

is sune a valid point for a kendoka who fight against naginata?
we have seen some in the world naginata championship but they never get a flag for it...

if it is what does he need to get the point?


Phil :evolved:

The only time I have ever seen a kendoka go for sune in isshu-jiai was at the WNC. From what I was told there is a sune strike and it is valid but like I said its just what I was told.

[Jakob Ryngen]

I was told by Alex Bennet (and he should know) that a sune-strike by a kendoka is valid (and a good technique as well). Otherwise the sune-ate would not be needed for the naginataka in isshu shiai, right? The strike is conducted from a somewhat crouching position and should not, I repeat not, be made by someone who has not trained it. A bad strike with the shinai could well damage the knee of the naginataka.

[xvikingx]

The strike is conducted from a somewhat crouching position and should not, I repeat not, be made by someone who has not trained it. A bad strike with the shinai could well damage the knee of the naginataka.

Interesting. At the WNC everyone who went for sune was standing; it looked like a modfied do cut. Obviously they were not doing it correctly.

[Jakob Ryngen]

Sorry, my english is bad. The sune-strike is done with bent knees but while standing (a bit like a correct naginata-sune). I do not recall how it was done at the WNC. Alex told me that Isshu Shiai was a good way of getting injured, and a bad sune-strike comes to mind.

[xvikingx]

No worries, thanks for the info.

[Nagi David]

hopefully for kendo ka it's valid, why wouldn't they be allowed to strike where we can... :tongue:

An interesting point for Naginata ka against kendo ka is the do. because it's pretty rare to strike a do in a naginata shiai

[kendophx]

is sune a valid point for a kendoka who fight against naginata?
we have seen some in the world naginata championship but they never get a flag for it...

Reason 1: The competitors weren’t cutting point-quality waza.
Reason 2: The judges weren’t taking them.

Reason 2 first. This is meant to be realistic assessment, not a disrespectful one, as being a shinpan is very difficult. However, I believe that shinpan can only bring their own experience to the matches they judge. Therein, lies the problem with sune.

If the shinpan comes from a kendo background, he (or she) has 10 plus years of experience that says cuts to the leg are illegal/wrong.

If the shinpan comes from a naginata background, cuts to the leg are valid but with the naginata being just a fist shy of twice the length of a shinai, the sune no kami of a kendo-ka is completely different from that of a naginata no hito. Ten plus years of experience tells her (or him) that the cut is way too close and way too weak.

Each shinpan has to make a split second “no-mind” decision to call a point. At 2:55 into the match, you can’t call googi and say “Hey, you know that sune in the left corner about 30 seconds ago, we really should take that one!” Most shinpan, I believe, are not going to call a point that their instincts tell them is wrong. Most would rather error on the side of caution.

So, the point does not get called in time and the match continues....

[kendophx]

Alex told me that Isshu Shiai was a good way of getting injured, and a bad sune-strike comes to mind.

My sensei stopped doing kendo/naginata Isshu Shiai after a knee injury ... but he was doing the kendo portion. It was the naginata no hito that was the knee wacker :ermm: .

A question of legality and such ....

About 5 years ago I took a point blank hiki-gyaku-doo and had a purple elbow for the next week or so. I asked around and other kendo ladies pointed out that many of them wear hard shell elbow pads, the kind you wear for skateboarding/rollerblading, during open (men and women) competitions.
Fits under the sleeve of a kendo-gi. No such luck with a naginata-gi, a traditional, puffed-sleeve one anyway.

But to prevent serious knee injury:
Is it legal in naginata to wear hard shell knee pads under your hakama?
Or any type of kneepad, shin guard, ankle guard, et cetera?

Is it left up to the discretion of the head judge, on an event by event basis?

Does it interfere with the sune-ate himo, so people don't bother with it anyway?

[kendophx]

hopefully for kendo ka it's valid, why wouldn't they be allowed to strike where we can...

A question you might wish to consider is "Why would a kendo-ka want to hit your sune?"

My opinion is that a sune is not a "natural" cut for a shinai, and it most definately is not easy.

Start by looking at a kendo-ka in chudan. What do you notice about the hands/shinai?

Usually, but not always (UBNA), the left hand is lower than the right hand, and the right hand is lower than the tip of the shinai. When striking, the strongest cuts come from maintaining the same posture. If I am up against a taller opponent, this is relatively easy to do as I am tipping up anyway.

When I am up against a smaller/same height opponent, it gets tricky. Even for the centerline cuts, men and kote, there is a split second where the tip may be underneath the right hand. But the centerline cuts have the smallest arc and are the fastest to do, so UBNA no great danger.

The doo cut is different. I can not do a centerline doo cut because your shoulder is in the way. I have to come in on the diagonal. This makes for a larger arc, and a slower cut, and thus, the danger of a parry/counter is great. If I strike doo with the tip lower than the right hand, a sharp parry to the tip could very well disarm me.

To avoid this, and cut stronger, one option I have is to bend the front/right knee just at the moment of impact. This lowers the whole torso and I can strike doo with my left hand under my right hand under my tip. Even against a strong parry, a hand squeeze is UBNA enough to keep control of my shinai.

There is a price however. For kendo-ka, the most common expression of zanshin is forward fumi-komi-doosa. Bending the front knee makes this difficult to start immediately after the cut. No zanshin, no point quality waza.

Now if I have to knee bend to cut doo, think of how low I have to get to keep my tip above my right hand above my left to hit your sune. Again, I can not do a centerline sune because your shoulder and most of the rest of you is in the way, so I have to come in from the side. You have a lots of time to watch the cut come in and with the extra length of the naginata, you have lots of leverage for a disarm.

Probably my best shot is to go off centerline and try to catch you moving. Kendo-ka do it often with doo (hold the shinai out and let the opponent cut himself as he moves through). However most naginata no hito hit and reposition, not hit and go through the way kendo-ka do.

I can try a one handed waza which extends my reach (I live in mortal terror of kendo-ka beginners doing one-handed waza!). But, I have a good chance of being disarmed.

Or, I can try to catch you repositioning the e-bu, and drop straight down as if in son-kyo. I'm dead meat if you catch me, but it can be easier to launch zanshin out of a deep knee bend than a crouch on just one knee.

So while it is a valid cut, sune is probably the last thing I would try. I usually go for hari and suriage and anything else that gets your weapon off centerline, then follow up with men.

I am however, only a beginner, and these opinions and 60 cents will buy you a can of soda.

[Nagi David]

how about kneeling when your striking sune with shinai?

[xvikingx]

But to prevent serious knee injury:
Is it legal in naginata to wear hard shell knee pads under your hakama?
Or any type of kneepad, shin guard, ankle guard, et cetera?


I have never heard any sensei say anything about knee guards being illegal; infact some sensei even encourage using them. I do not use them myself but I know people who will wear iado and/or volleyball knee pads. I think the hard shell kind may be a little too restrictive.

By the way, Kendophx, Do you belong to the SCNF? I am guessing you train with that Aussie guy (sorry I don't remember his name.. Paul?) down in AZ right? I used to live in the L.A. area and train with Nakano sensei.

[xvikingx]

how about kneeling when your striking sune with shinai?

I am no isshu-jiai expert but that seems like that would put you at a terrible disadvantage.

[Nagi David]

I have seen japanese fighters doing it in Naginata
don't forget that the big problem for the Naginata against kendo is the distance,
if a kendoka is to close... you're death meat...

[xvikingx]

I have seen japanese fighters doing it in Naginata
Wait, the naginata-ka was kneeling?! Could you even get ippon on your knees? *No dirty jokes please*

if a kendoka is to close... you're death meat...
True :ko:

[kendophx]

how about kneeling when your striking sune with shinai?

Kneeling does solve the problem of how to lower the torso and still keep your shinai tip up for a cut as low as a sune.

My opinion also is that kneeling is a valid form of zanshin. It appears in Kendo tachi kata #7. However, there is a specific form to it. You begin the shidachi (oji) portion by pushing the right/front foot off center, then you turn the left foot about 90 degrees when pulling it in after the kneel. When you are finished kneeling your hips are swiveled so that you are turned into Uchidachi's centerline. Your shinai is low to the ground and again, tip up.

However, IMO, kneeling has its limitations as a competitive waza.

1)Most people who do only kendo have more experience dropping in and out of sonkyo than with kneeling and recovering. People with a kendo/iaido background could probably kneel and recover with pretty decent speed. The recovery is important because by design, the kata ends. Competition does not.

2) Recovery is not an issue if the kendo sune is point quality, as the competition ends. However, see Reply to Phil: Reason 2. A shinpan with only a naginata background may not know kendo kata #7 is being applied to competition. A shinpan with a kendo background is used to seeing kendo kata #7 as a doo cut, not a sune waza.

3)The kneel would have to be carefully coordinated to move to the outside of the front leg. As naginata no hito switch sides, and therefore front legs, the timing is more difficult, than on a fellow kendo-ka who UBNA has the right foot forward. I think in competition, you would still want to follow the open the hips to the outside as in the koryu. The habit of always kneeling on the right knee might be hard to break. {E.G. Just this year I took my first Tendo Ryu seminar. Was having difficulty with the kneeling kata of the shodan set. It turns out I was kneeling on the right knee, kendo kata #7 style for both kata instead of on the right knee for one and the left knee for the other.}

4)I would cut and kneel only if the naginata no hito was already moving away from my position. I think anyone kneeling shinai-length-close to a naginata no hito still in kamae is asking for one upside the head with the e-bu :dead: !

[kendophx]

I have never heard any sensei say anything about knee guards being illegal

For kendo competitions, there are some rules in place about foot pads (and other "additions to the approved uniform"). The theory is some people might be using them not for valid medical reasons, but to gain an advantage at either bracing the feet or sliding the feet, depending on the material of the foot pad.

I have never been asked to remove the elbow pads, but I have usually asked the head judge if my wearing of them was ok with him.

[Phil]

héhé

I m really impatient to do an isshu jiai competition...
Maybe one day people will be interested to do the WIJC (world isshu jiai championship)...? :ermm:

I m!!!

(thanks for all the answers)

regards


Phil

[Nagi David]

I'm not sure kendo ka like it as much as naginata ka does.

[emitbrownne]

I'm not sure kendo ka like it as much as naginata ka does.
I only get to train with Kendoka whilst weilding naginata.
Everyone I fence seems to enjoy the change in distance and technique.
Neither my opponent not myself wear sune-ate so it limits the number of cuts available anyway.

[Phil]

I'm not sure kendo ka like it as much as naginata ka does.

Maybe but i think that a lot of them will like it... anyway it s nice to try something different.


Phil

[Nagi David]

Even japanese sensei agreed that; at a same grade of knowledge, it is harder for a kendo ka to fight a Naginata ka. For 2 obvious reasons : the distance of the weapon, which help naginata fighters to strike from far away. the second reason is of course the sune ate, that even if they are use to it are difficult to defend for kendo ka. I guess kendo ka should be allowed to fight with a long and a short sword against Naginata ka. I think the advantage of kendo ka is speed of mouvement and close fight.

[Phil]

I guess kendo ka should be allowed to fight with a long and a short sword against Naginata ka. I think the advantage of kendo ka is speed of mouvement and close fight.

I have never seen nito vs naginata... but i m curious !
maybe in the next isshu jiai :cheerful:

:happy:


Phil

[Jakob Ryngen]

What about naginata vs jukendo or why not tankendo?

[kendophx]

Even japanese sensei agreed that; at a same grade of knowledge, it is harder for a kendo ka to fight a Naginata ka. For 2 obvious reasons : the distance of the weapon, which help naginata fighters to strike from far away. ...

My opinion is that the naginata no hito has several advantages.

I am however, going to have to respectfully disagree on this one. The length of the naginata provides only a defensive advantage when the fighters are separated. The further away you start your attack, the longer I have to intercept. {Although realistically ... we are talking about 2 people confined to a 12m square and not ICBMs.}

It is getting past your point for my first attack opportunity that is my main concern when we are separated.

As we fight closer, I have to worry about which end of the weapon you are going to use. So it is not good for me to stay 1/2 distance (the distance at which you can reach me with both the ha-bu and the e-bu). Having broken through your perimeter, I either have to attack and get out or fight closer than your 1/2 distance, which means, my own cuts stop being point quality as I have very little extension, so I am UBNA limited to hikki-waza.

If I try to fight just outside of your 1/2 distance, I have the hardest time, because I am trying to counter a person with 2 weapons - a cutting weapon and the striking weapon - who is very close to me. But since the naginata is actually one weapon, if you don't want to attack, you can simply move back to the end of your weapon & I am back to trying to break through your perimeter.

{I mention this difference as I have seen demonstrated but don't know the mechanics of, some striking techniques where you use the sword handle. e.g. a person tries to grab your katana and you wrap/spiral the handle around the hand -> push down and break the wrist. Also, if your katana is still in the scabbard, and someone lunges at you, pull the handle into their throat as if doing tsuki. These types of things are completely removed from modern kendo. We use the shinai only as a cutting weapon.}

The advantages, as I see them, come specifically from the construction of the atarashii naginata. Much less heavy than a koryu naginata, you can control the weapon from the e-bu instead of the middle; so you gain distance. You can reposition a lighter weapon much faster; so you gain speed. Also, the atarashii naginata retains its curvature; the shinai does not. So many kendo waza are only approximations of the kendo kata, which use the curvature. {Kata being the place where you learn the fundamentals of swordplay - timing and distance - as opposed to technique. And these fundamentals are what you need, when you go up against unfamiliar weapons/styles.}

I am, however, lacking one of the critical points you did mention, a partner "at a same grade of knowledge". My partner, a kendo yon-dan, is faster than I at kendo; and much faster at kendo than I am in naginata. This difference does affect my experience of kendo vs. naginata quite a bit.

[kendophx]

<snip> I guess kendo ka should be allowed to fight with a long and a short sword against Naginata ka. I think the advantage of kendo ka is speed of mouvement and close fight.

Don't help much ....

especially if you're tall. {Again, not meant to be disrespectful. The sensei who fights nitto in our mentoring dojo is just over 5' and cheerfully pounds me to pulp whenever we visit.}

When fighting nitto, you drop from a 3.8/3.9 to no longer than a 3.6. A naginata is just longer than 2x a 3.6 shinai, so now you have to close an even longer distance on the attack.

If I'm tall, and you attack my kodachi side, sune especially, I can not get the nitto low enough to intercept your blade. I have to cross parry with the 3.6, and then, the nitto is too short for a single-step counterstrike while your blade is trapped.

A cross catch (catching the attacking blade with the two swords crossed in an X) is not as effective for yoku-waza as it is for sho-men. More naginata no hito use yoku-waza then do kendo-ka.

Also, given the catch is not a trap, you can easily lift the naginata out of the X and go for a second strike along the blade trace. A kendo-ka (attacking a nitto-no-kendo-ka) can not do it as quickly because the X usually catches the shinai already at full extension. Thus a nitto-no-kendo-ka is not prepared for speed of the naginata-no-hito's response.

{exception: if the kendo-ka does a kote-doo, and the nitto-no-kendo-ka has slanted the X forward to catch the kote, the doo strike can come in pretty fast.}

Most nitto-no-kendo-ka have a preference as to which hand holds which blade; and can not switch them back and forth as fast/as fluidly as a naginata no hito switches sides.

A very aggressive nitto-no-kendo-ka - "and I ain't namin' names :tongue: " - will keep you off balance if you fight from naginata no chudan because they will keep your blade moving off center. But even fighting kendo, go into hasso or jodan no kamae, and you have removed much of the attacking advantages (entanglement) of fighting nitto. And naginata-no-hito go into hasso much more readily than most kendo-ka will.

Anyway, only my opinion; not backed up with any empirical study whatsoever. I will probably see Sensei March-ish. I will ask him his thoughts on nitto vs. naginata. He might have a very different set of waza to compensate for the length of the naginata, than I have seen him use against my 3.8.

-

[kendophx]

héhé
I m really impatient to do an isshu jiai competition...



If you have any spare time (:rolleyes: what a concept, spare time) you might ask some local kendo-ka, with your sensei's permission a given.

Unfortunately, Isshu Jiai between people who don't know at least something about the other art involved, usually degenerates into 1)two people playing tag with sticks or 2) two people attempting to club each other to death.

Proceed Cautiously ....

Going up against a kendo-ka who really isn't ready to do one-handed waza, but thinks they're a great way to get past an e-bu, means you're risking a smashed ear at best, and a popped eardrum at worst. :ko:

[kendophx]

What about naginata vs jukendo or why not tankendo?

I think they settled the bayonet vs. the naginata during the Satsuma Rebellion, but if "they" don't get to use any gunpowder this time, I'm up for a re-match !!!

I have wanted to do a kendo vs. tankendo match, but the only tankendo lady I know lives 1200+ miles away.

The questions that would have to be settled would be what to do about the grappling. Only a vestige of grappling remains in modern kendo: kodachi kata #2 and #3. But in a brief talk with some tankendo folks, they mentioned it as a significant part of the art.

Can you expand on that at all, or were you listing some possibilities for Isshu Jiai?

[xvikingx]

>"By the way, Kendophx, Do you belong to the SCNF? I am guessing you train with that Aussie guy (sorry I don't remember his name.. Paul?) down in AZ right? I used to live in the L.A. area and train with Nakano sensei."

What's the matter? Is this a secret?

[Nagi David]

Thank you kendophx for all the time you took to answer to any of us

[kendophx]

>"By the way, Kendophx, Do you belong to the SCNF? I am guessing you train with that Aussie guy (sorry I don't remember his name.. Paul?) down in AZ right? I used to live in the L.A. area and train with Nakano sensei."

What's the matter? Is this a secret?

Gomen Kudasai.

I am not comfortable mentioning people by name when I don't know if they are a member of this forum or not. It would not be fair to them, in my opinion, as they are not able to speak up for themselves or, their view of the situation, if I happen to misrepresent it.

In this way, I think, the always unhappy "Well yeah that's what I said! But you had to be there, 'cause that's not what I meant!" can be kept to a minimum.

Of course, if you're Akira Kurosawa, then you could make a movie about people speaking up with different points of view ... but I'm no Akira Kurosawa.

[xvikingx]

I am not comfortable mentioning people by name when I don't know if they are a member of this forum or not. It would not be fair to them, in my opinion, as they are not able to speak up for themselves or, their view of the situation, if I happen to misrepresent it.

Sure, whatever you say. :confused: I just thought maybe I met you once before at seminar or something.

[hyouriittai]

I have never seen nito vs naginata... but i m curious !
maybe in the next isshu jiai :cheerful:

:happy:


Phil

Our ryu-ha has some soyjutsu (spelling?) curriculum in it, so we also use naginata or yari in some keiko. I had jigeiko with my sensei in which he'd thrown in isshu jiai, one of the rounds being nito versus naginata. I always saw the naginata as being disadvantageous for myself because it seemed so large and unwieldy. I also noticed how easy it was for people to get into my maai. Of course, I'm not an exclusive naginata student, and I've seen many clips of isshu jiai in which the naginataka does extremely well. But anyways, nito seemed to be very helpful, as parrying was made much easier with shoto. I'd love to try naginata again -- hopefully our new facility will have higher ceilings.

[Jakob Ryngen]

Striking from kneeling is a valid, but unusual, wasa. In order to score the underside of the feet must be touching the floor however (as in the ZNNR nihonme kata).

[Nagi David]

Congratulation to Phil who is European Champion of Isshu Jihai. Unfortunately, none of the other kendo and naginata federation of the world were invited to this event, well except the one who organised it.
So I guess we can say that he is world champion :rolleyes:

[berghaan]

The Isshu Jihai in germany was in no means a european championship.
It was more like a friendship tournament, most of the invitations went out to kendo clubs in germany and to some clubs in other countries the organising club had trained with before.
There were a lot of people from all over germany, a guy from czech republic, about 9 dutch people and 4 belgium people.

It is unfortunate that you had not received an invitation, maybe you can write an email to the organisation in germany to show your interest for next time.

Best regards,

[Nagi David]

I just read that on Philibert's Web site and found it funny.
I think it's really cool that The Netherlands initiate Naginata in Germany. Anything that can promote Naginata is good. This is my point of vue.

[berghaan]

Ah now I see.
There was some talk about it maybe being the first "official" isshu shiai in europe.
That is what makes it a bit confusing.
Personally I have never heard about an earlier event like this so it might as well be the first "official" event like this.
Not the first european championship in that sense. :smiley:

I would recommend participating to such events in the future to everyone
they are great fun and there is lots to learn from the others you meet.

official it being more than just a club thing and it having prices for the top 3.

regards,

[Nagi David]

I would love to...and I'm sure I'm not the only one
Congratulation again to all of you

[kendophx]

But.... did we finally see some ippon quality sune waza from the kendo-ka?

Enquiring kendo minds want to know.... :p

[berghaan]

I did not see any ippon for tsune given to kendoka during the shiai
Only in the short demonstration on valid points.

[lewis]

Two points about sune and kendo that haven't been made.

1. Full kneeling is not necessary. A deep lunge (think of a double-leg take down in wrestling) is the best. It lowers you sufficiently and provides an extra foot or so of penetration towards your opponent. You also can regain your proper stance faster as you don't have to change your balance from a two point stance to a three point stance and back. However, you are totally committed and your men is wide open if the opponent recovers before you can stand. Almost suicide if the opponent has a short/fast weapon like a shinai but less so for a long weapon like a yari or naginata.

2. Long term training in kendo teaches a kendoka to ignore incoming strikes that would not be a point, unless you are counterattacking. It also teaches you to expect and anticapte only attacks to valid points. If sune is suddently introduced, it may be some time before you can recondition yourself to react appropriately, both offensively and defensively.

If you want a very interesting experience, you and an opponent put on sune protectors and do keiko with sune as a valid point. But wear knee pads.

[JamesB]

Next Thursday we will do an isshu jiai in our club. We have a naginata team that is visiting us (we are kendoka). I am eager to try it. I will post my experiences here afterwards....

I'm already glad I found some info on it here on the forum.

[ben]

Kendophx: I've racked my brains this way and that but I can't work it out. Is it a naginata thing? What the hell is "UBNA"?

Very interesting thread BTW (now there's an acronym I understand).

:)
b

[kendophx]

Gomen kudasai, Sensei.

UBNA stands for Usually, But Not Always.

I use it with the beginners because as soon as I say something like "... in kendo, you ALWAYS keep your right foot in front ..." Sensei will do a one-handed men from the left and all the beginners will see it and say "...but, but, but ... he just put his left foot in front!"

So with UBNA, I'm covered. :rolleyes:

[alepto]

There is a Japanese website with a lovely picture that illustrates why some kendoka are not "keen" on this (last picture on page)

http://www.city.iruma.saitama.jp/kokutai/rehearsal.htm

In case anyone asks I have absolutely no connection to the website (and hope I offend noone by posting link) and have no idea what happened after the shot -- though I can guess:)