Questions from the Jodo Numpty

[ScottUK]

I thought I'd have my own thread where I can ask dumb questions and embarrass myself - hope you don't mind...

Seiteigata gohonme: when uchidachi makes his initial thrust, he* is deflected/covered(?) by shijo and then his sword is struck down by the jo.

Q1) is it possible for shijo to move fast enough from the initial deflection/cover to the downward strike so uchidachi isn't left standing there like a complete muppet awaiting shijo's attack? Or have I got the riai completely wrong?

* his/her/its/whatever.

Cheers in advance...

[Fred27]

I have been taught several ways to counter. The first is the one you are describing (strike down the sword). The second is to strike at the wrists instead of the sword in the same manner.

The third is to strike to the uchidachis head when standing in the "covering-the-sword" position. You start the same way: Draw back and cover the sword then at lightning-speed in the same body position you whack the swordsman in the head with your jo using your right hand only. If done correct the uchidachi will barely have finished his thrusting movement as he gets his head bonked.

[ScottUK]

Draw back and cover the sword then at lightning-speed in the same body position you whack the swordsman in the head with your jo using your right hand only. If done correct the uchidachi will barely have finished his thrusting movement as he gets his head bonked.Aha ok. 'Lightning Spped' is what I am missing here. I usually leave uchidachi standing there like a plum while I fumble around trying to get my left hand back on the bloody jo.

Cheers Fred.

[Fred27]

Aha ok. 'Lightning Spped' is what I am missing here. I usually leave uchidachi standing there like a plum while I fumble around trying to get my left hand back on the bloody jo.

Cheers Fred.

Just to clarify: The above method is an application, not the way its supposed to be done. I also get the impression I didnt make myself clear. Its very difficult explaining stuff like this on paper (so to speak).

I'm gonna try and dig something up so I can be precise.

[Fred27]

Ok, I think I know how to do this know.

Load this clip and pause it at time index 05:28.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_FPa7H70G8

Imagine you are the jo. From that position as shown in the frozen state of the clip you can do as you have always done and turn your body towards the swordsman and smack down the sword. Or you could remain exactly as your are (body-wise) and let go of the jo with your left hand and use your right hand and smack the swordsman in the head with the jo. A slight leaning makes it easier to reach and all of this can be done VERY fast. But please note, this is just the application I'm describing, its not the way the kata goes.

*edit*
The speed of the "omote" series, of which "sakan" belongs to, are deliberate slow (realtively speaking) and steady with lots of kime. The smacking of the sword is done for training & safety purposes..(being hit on the wrist isn't fun, especially not with the amount of power involved). In chudan and ran ai series you will encounter higher speeds with minimum amount of time to react and do your thing with the jo.

There! Hope I made some sense..I havent had enough coffee today.

[Newbie]

I think (Fred, correct me if this li'l kohai is wrong) that it's not so much speed (and yeah, these should be done relatively slowly and increase with speed naturally as you become more familiar, yeah?) but as the reduction of length of the ma-aku? I'm just starting to reduce these as I start training for my shodan and only for the first five kata which I'm more familiar with, not with six that I've only learn relatively recently. I'm still taking that nice and slow.

[Fred27]

but as the reduction of length of the ma-aku? I'm just starting to reduce these as I start .

I think I'm the wrong peep to ask...I must regretfully admit I cannot remember what "ma-aku" means :redface::redface::redface:

[Newbie]

It only recently came to Australia (as far as I'm aware). It's like jo-ha-ku (sp?) but for pauses. So instead of slow/medium/fast movement, it's short, medium or long pause. But by reducing these with grade and experience, what I mean is one of my 1 count pauses, would be a 2 count pause for a higher grade, and my 2 count pause would be a 3 count pause for someone junior to me. Well, I think that's how it works, anyway. I'm sure I'll get told off if I'm wrong :p

[Fred27]

It only recently came to Australia (as far as I'm aware). It's like jo-ha-ku (sp?) but for pauses. So instead of slow/medium/fast movement, it's short, medium or long pause. But by reducing these with grade and experience, what I mean is one of my 1 count pauses, would be a 2 count pause for a higher grade, and my 2 count pause would be a 3 count pause for someone junior to me. Well, I think that's how it works, anyway. I'm sure I'll get told off if I'm wrong :p

Oh! Yeh that makes sense. :)

The closest thing I've come to the ma aku is when performing the kuri tuske, kuri hanashi and tai atari. The manouver you do when "catching" the sword are done in three different ways, each faster than the previous.
In the first stage you do the "beginner" way for the duration of omote. Once in second stage, normally right after you hit Chudan series for the first time, you learn the second and more swifter version of catching the sword. Third stage is when you hit ran ai in which case you perform it the third way which is very fast.

Another related example is found in our sword-work. Its a bit complicated since we have a few mixed doctrines in our group about this, but generally the beginner sword always cuts from jodan unless the kata specifically requires otherwise (like tsuba wari). Eventually, as the swordsman gains more experience and confidence, he/she starts to cut directly from hasso, even in tsuki zue. As a cut from hasso requires less time to execute, the time available for the shidachi to react is also less so it requires both partners to have more than average experience.

Those are the examples I can think of that we use in our group. Sorry for the long post :)

[Kim Taylor]

Seiteigata gohonme: when uchidachi makes his initial thrust, he* is deflected/covered(?) by shijo and then his sword is struck down by the jo.

Q1) is it possible for shijo to move fast enough from the initial deflection/cover to the downward strike so uchidachi isn't left standing there like a complete muppet awaiting shijo's attack? Or have I got the riai completely wrong?


I think you can ask this same question throughout the entire practice of jo. There are places where tachi simply sits around waiting for jo to hit him. In fact you can make that same observation in any paired weapons practice that is not "freestyle". It's the way we have to practice for 1. safety and 2. the ability to study more than a couple of different techniques that work really well at full speed.

The way to think about this is to imagine applying any koryu sword or stick-work in a kendo situation. How many of the cool techniques would work if the tachi was free to simply move the blade and smack us while we're doing some sort of switching of our hands or shuffling of our feet.

Which of course is a great way to check on the reality of our practice.

In this specific case Fred et al. have suggested doing a different technique/application or speeding up. May I suggest you simply don't pause, think of the shift back, checking of the blade and strike down on the blade as a continuous movement. If tachi continues to thrust or returns to a chudan position the technique can be done without modification. If he moves the blade anywhere else you can strike some other available target without much of a change in the technique.

If you're having trouble finding the jo with your left hand perhaps you should examine where the jo is moving. If it wanders off the attack line than it may be difficult to find, but if the tip of the jo stays on the attack line it's right out front where our left hand tends to be comfortable... shouldn't be hard to find.

To get back to this whole "pause and wait" thing again, I think you're looking at the reason shinai kendo was developed in the first place. It is a simple answer to "what works?" Check out this url I noticed on e-budo, http://www.wklok.com/mylife/2008_06_jap_taikai/Page2.html down at the bottom are videos of yet another group on the way to inventing Kendo.

Here's how it goes. Solo practice is just swinging at the air and where's the target.

Let's go to paired practice (with wooden weapons for safety) so we can find the targets and the distance.

But we can't swing or react at full speed for safety reasons so let's get some padding on our partner so we can react at full speed without worrying too much if we tap them accidentally in our excitement.

But we can't swing at full power through the target which means we're still not at full speed so let's modify the weapon a bit further to make it flexible and now we can swing through and see how things go at full reactive speed.

But we're still anticipating because it's kata practice so let's put both sides in the padding and the safety weapons and remove that foreknowledge of the kata, let's go freestyle but of course we still have to restrict the targets to the areas we have padded.

But now we are having problems because the techniques are severely restricted to things that are very fast and very simple and a lot of the students are only practicing stuff that "works" under our new practice conditions so let's do some solo practice to learn how to grip and cut and let's do some paired kata practice to expand the technical repertoire... and get out of the hot padding while doing the kata since we don't have to protect ourselves when we both know the pattern, timing and outcome.

Full circle.

Kim Taylor

[Aden]

The closest thing I've come to the ma aku is when performing the kuri tuske, kuri hanashi and tai atari. The manouver you do when "catching" the sword are done in three different ways, each faster than the previous.
In the first stage you do the "beginner" way for the duration of omote. Once in second stage, normally right after you hit Chudan series for the first time, you learn the second and more swifter version of catching the sword. Third stage is when you hit ran ai in which case you perform it the third way which is very fast.

Ma-oku is not related to speed - it is a pause or interval such as the moment when you are puting the jo away and you are waiting for the tachi to concede / shift his weight. The pause happens while you wait on events, like in iai where you pause over the fallen opponent before noto, or a really short one where you decide, 'yes I must cut him he is not giving up'.

But to get back to ScottUK's question, from the perspective of my limited experience, in sakan the uchidachi is supposed to stand there like a complete muppet.... It is an omote kata - there is no need for combat effectiveness, it is just teaching you a couple of new transitions.

As Kim Taylor said
I think you can ask this same question throughout the entire practice of jo. There are places where tachi simply sits around waiting for jo to hit him and this is especially common in the omote kata that make up 2/3 of the seitei curriculum but you also see it at the start of ranai.

Sometimes it is for teaching/learning purposes, sometimes it is necessary for safety, sometimes it is necessary because of the depowering, where since the jo did not disable or cripple the tachi you have to move to the next phase by agreement like at the beginning of tachiotoshi - since the awase at the start does not finish with the jo trying to smash the sword out of the air but rather with a meeting and settling, the sword then has to stand there and let the jo step around and strike at them before reacting.

Aden

[ScottUK]

But to get back to ScottUK's question, from the perspective of my limited experience, in sakan the uchidachi is supposed to stand there like a complete muppet.... It is an omote kata - there is no need for combat effectiveness, it is just teaching you a couple of new transitions.Ah that makes sense, thanks. Sometimes I think we look too hard for bunkai/riai only to find it ain't what we expected.


As Kim Taylor said and this is especially common in the omote kata that make up 2/3 of the seitei curriculum but you also see it at the start of ranai.As uchidachi against Ranai for the first time last weekend, I'll use my zero hours of jo experience and disagree. :) After the jo was withdrawn from up my nose, I found it extremely disabling to have the jo stuck in my wakibara. There wasn't a lot I could do except retreat to draw the sword. Definitely not standing like a muppet there... ;)


If you're having trouble finding the joNaah, I was paraphrasing for my lack of ability. Finding the jo ain't a problem (it's in my bag in the corner of the room, see? :D) but jo handling is a different kennel of dogs. I keep falling off the end due to primate-esque arms! I'll get over it in time...

[Fred27]

Scott..before this thread is finished..I just gotta ask: What the hell does "numpty" mean?

[ScottUK]

This thread will never finish. I have loads of Q's on jodo.

Numpty? Try here (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty). I feel that explanation #2 is the best one, although a bit harsh.

[nico storm]

This thread will never finish. I have loads of Q's on jodo.

Numpty? Try here (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty). I feel that explanation #2 is the best one, although a bit harsh.

Explaination 2 eh?
"A person who never has or never will have a f*ing clue what he is doing" That pretty much sums up what I feel like when I pick up my jo....or my bokuto...or iaito....

[torashin]

Hi Scott

I don't see why you should feel any different to the rest of us when it comes to the Jo.

You've had too many years only having to worry about one end of the weapon (the Tsuka).

You'll have to multi task mate, and practice with both ends of the weapon, At the same time :D

I did enjoy looking at some of the other words listed on the urban dictionary

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tosspot

Not aimed at you sir. But it made me laugh :emb:

Cheers

[Newbie]

Completely off topic but I wasn't gonna start a new thread over it - I've pulled my traps! Again! It was two years ago in August that I last did it and had two months of jodo and four months off iaido. I have my first non-Nationals taikai in two weeks :( Gonna completely rest and treat it this week and hope for a miracle. Owie-owie-owie it hurts :(

[Fred27]

Completely off topic but I wasn't gonna start a new thread over it - I've pulled my traps! Again! It was two years ago in August that I last did it and had two months of jodo and four months off iaido. I have my first non-Nationals taikai in two weeks :( Gonna completely rest and treat it this week and hope for a miracle. Owie-owie-owie it hurts :(

Pulled your traps? What part of the body is that? :D

There there. Uncle Freddie will make the pain go away. :)

[ScottUK]

I remember telling a girl to shut her trap a little while back. That was painful (for me)... ;)

[Newbie]

Trapezius muscle. Which is really three muscles. Starts at the neck and splits into three, one running down you shoulder and two down you shoulder blade. I actually physically cried out trying to do kesa giri. That was how I found out what I'd done.

On the upside - it's a week without Hikotoshi (the tandoku that is, not the cat.)

[Kim Taylor]

Completely off topic but I wasn't gonna start a new thread over it - I've pulled my traps! Again! It was two years ago in August that I last did it and had two months of jodo and four months off iaido. I have my first non-Nationals taikai in two weeks :( Gonna completely rest and treat it this week and hope for a miracle. Owie-owie-owie it hurts :(

OK being from Canada I thought you'd left town... to pull your traps is to take in the trapline for the season and get back on the river to the Hudson's Bay Company store to sell your furs.

These days it has the connotation of getting out of town quick... usually involves another kind of trap, like a dad with a shotgun sort of thing.

We far enough off topic yet?

Kim Taylor

[ScottUK]

We far enough off topic yet?For KWF this is nothing.

OK, my next numpty question...

Various strikes/thrusts have different degrees of power applied. Example: the tsuki in Hissage (a push/thrust in one) and the tsuki in Monomi (a final powerful thrust).

Q2 - do you vary your kiai intensity to match the severity of the strike/thrust?

[Fred27]

Just a disclaimer Scott: I might give you wrong or at least biased info on how to do things in the whole seitei vs groups vs koryu vs sensei hurricane, all of whom/which have different ways of doing things.
You have been warned...:D

I suspect the tsuki is done differently in our groups. I was taught in hissage to do a very short but a relatively powerful tsuki as to "encourage" the opponent to go away. (Since the distance to the uchidachi are so close it needs to be powerful.) Some groups forcefully use the jo to "push" the guy away. There is no pushing in the way we do it. Tomato, tomato.
Q2: I usually do a normal length kiai, but that is relative :).

In monomi we do a regular kaeshi tsuki, no more or less power than in kihon. We dont aim to push/thrust the uchidachi away when the KT hits like I've seen done in some Tokyo-jo videos.
Q2: I do a normal length kiai for this KT.

You can get an idea of this through this clip:
Time index 05.44 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_FPa7H70G8)

Hope that was useful..Or at the very least a fun trivia. :)

Uncle Kim will now correct my (mis)conceptions about Seitei, if any. :)

[Kim Taylor]

Nothing to correct Fred, that I can see.

As for kiai intensity, of course it varies depending on thrust strength, also on situation, partner, what I'm trying to get my partner to do, etc. etc.

But not because anyone has told me lately that this or that kiai should be this or that beyond Oo and Ei and "don't carry on so long at the end of the kata, it's not a foghorn contest".

In fact the most detailed/useful kiai information I've got was "put it in wherever you figure you need one".

So for instance if I'm going full bore through the thrust and strike in Hissage I might not even kiai on the thrust, (might not be much of a thrust at all if the partner is running backward, more of a quick check to make sure he keeps going in the desired direction). On the other hand if things are moving slower and the partner seems reluctant to move back the thrust may be stronger and the kiai present and piercing toward his head or lower with a gut-crunching feel. Again, depending on the intention and need.

Kim Taylor

[Harry Jones]

First numpty question.. you should have come to eindhoven. If you had seen the speed Ishido Sensei demonstrated it at... well actually it was hard to see it because it was so fast. Twas yummy

Kiai should be relative to the feeling in the strike/thrust. However the last strike most likely being the definitive one, it would seem to me that it should be quite a meaningful Kiai. Or to put it another way i was told for my last grading that if I did a great big Oooo followed by a little yappy ei. It would seem a bit of a let down to say the least.

Of course volume and meaning don't always equate, but for your Ikkyu its a safe bet.

Harry

[ScottUK]

I have had all sorts of comments about my kiai, and I sometimes wonder if it is too much. Hence the thinly-veiled real question - should I allow my kiai to be reduced to a lesser banshee-eque noise during certain moments in the kata? ;)

I really struggle to control my kiai. Especially in HNIR as it is an internal thing and I can't let the tasmanian devil out... :D

[Harry Jones]

hmmm.... tis loud but not the loudest i have heard. Not something to worry about yet in Jo.
but its a very interesting subject, one I'm just begining to get to grips with. I'll have to ask me Sensei for some more info, but what he said to me last year when I was practicing the sexy little Kage number I did in my grading was. (and I paraphrase)
"Oh course your Kiai for this is 5th dan level and ultimately it will not be appropriate for the Kage" He then demonstrated a far more internalised Kiai which was very tasty, but beyond my ability to replicate.

Talking of internalised Kiai, I seem to have developed a nasty little habit of grunting my way through Ranai. It truly is the most unattractive thing.

[Fred27]

I have had all sorts of comments about my kiai, and I sometimes wonder if it is too much. Hence the thinly-veiled real question - should I allow my kiai to be reduced to a lesser banshee-eque noise during certain moments in the kata? ;)

I really struggle to control my kiai. Especially in HNIR as it is an internal thing and I can't let the tasmanian devil out... :D

Check out that SMR-vid I sent your way and listen to their kiai for comparison.

[Andy_Watson]

I love that moment in Team America when someone shouts out "Kiai" where there should have been one.:)

I defo feel that one's kiai changes with experience and it's not always appropriate for a one size fits all definition. Elementary students should focus on the kiai being loud (although not a foghorn as Kim suggests), in time with the strike thrust and as far as ZNKR jodo is concerned be either "ii-ei" (pronounced "ee-ay") or "ho" (pronounced "whore" - laugh it up) for strikes/cuts and thrusts respectedly.

A new bit of info from the last seminar was that at the central ZNKR Jodo Seminar, the head of the research committee said that while Tai Atari could use either "ii-ei" or "ho" as it was a strike then it might be more appropriate to be an "ii-ei" (noting that the last copy of the Seitei manual prescribes Tai Atari only with a kiai and notes it is "ho"). When the aforementioned head then did a demo he used "ho" - this was a source of some amusement....

Anyway, from what I understand good clarity and timing is the most important thing. As said before, intensity and volume can be adjusted depending on level, the placement of the technique within the kata, the kata being performed etc.

[ScottUK]

I am not shouting whore while trying to hit someone upside the head. Its just not budo... ;)

[Andy_Watson]

No no no, you shout "whore" when you are...ahem...thrusting them in the squidgy bits. It's quite funny in the long kata when you shout "whore" and they respond by hitting you and shouting "twat!"

That IS budo!

Interestingly I have just finished ironing my jodo hakama and discovered two extra pleats which have snuck in there unannounced and I was wondering which virtues they represent. Possibly gullability and podge...

[ScottUK]

I keep my squidgy bit thusting to a minimum these days. My weapon is unmanageable and sticky enough as it is.

That reminds me - need to give it a rub down.

[Andy_Watson]

This early on in the day. Surely not.

[ScottUK]

This early on in the day. Surely not.You have set times where you pamper your weapon by polishing its shaft? That'll be why you are bucho then... ;)

[Andy_Watson]

I wouldn't go far as to say pamper it. I give it a good sanding in the back garden in full view of the neighbours. I must say that it reflects my poor grade in jodo when I sometimes slip off the end.

[ScottUK]

Meh. I have it worse. Mine looks too small in my hands. It could do with being six inches longer too.

Do Stoy or Harry have small hands? My regular-sized weapon would look bigger if it was held by them.

I have given up using smilies for the duration of this thread.

[Fred27]

I go away for a 5 day trip and this thread has turned all gay?!

[ScottUK]

Gay? Explain? We were talking budo...

[Fred27]

Gay? Explain? We were talking budo...

Sigmund Freud must be spinning in his grave. :confused2

[ScottUK]

Slip-ups in jodo, yes. Freudian slips, no...

Righto, another question:

Why was seiteo jo taken exclusively from SMR? I understand that Shimizu-sensei created seitei jo and the ZNKR accepted it under their auspices, but seitei iai was taken from quite a few schools so as to not offend/alienate everyone. Why was ZNKR jo not done the same?

I had a jolly good read of this (http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_taylor_0900.htm) but there's no mention of why only Shimizu-sensei's school was represented in ZNKR jo.

Anyone?

[Newbie]

I asked this once. I got told. But then I forgot. Sorry.

[Fred27]

Slip-ups in jodo, yes. Freudian slips, no...

Righto, another question:

Why was seiteo jo taken exclusively from SMR? I understand that Shimizu-sensei created seitei jo and the ZNKR accepted it under their auspices, but seitei iai was taken from quite a few schools so as to not offend/alienate everyone. Why was ZNKR jo not done the same?

I had a jolly good read of this (http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_taylor_0900.htm) but there's no mention of why only Shimizu-sensei's school was represented in ZNKR jo.

Anyone?

If I had to guess I'd say there weren't enough traditional jo ryuha interested in such a project. The fact that there aren't that many jo ryuha to begin with is also a vital clue. Kim Taylor prolly knows some more. If not I could pop Pascal Sensei a question and hear if he picked something up from Shimizu Sensei about this.

By the way: One could also ask why the seitei iai people did not include Tatsumi-ryu and Katori Shinto ryu (iai) into their new system, both of which include iai far older than the original MJER lineage.

[Andy_Watson]

Scott

I believe the difference is that SMR is the only bujutsu ryu that has the jo as its primary weapon of choice. The only other styles I know of that use jo (and I'm sure there are more, I just don't know of them) are Suio Ryu and TSKSR. These both have the sword as their primary weapon.

Therefore I believe that Shimizu Sensei was the only person who was actively trying to spread the practice of the art of jo to a wider audience at the time. SMR became the ryu from which Seitei jo was based as Shimizu Sensei only knew SMR from a jodo perspective.

However, two of the Seitei Jodo kata do not originate from core SMR Jojutsu, these being Suigetsu and Shamen. While the kata named Suigetsu sits in SMR Okuden, the Seitei version is based loosely on Uchida Ryu Tanjojutsu. This art itself was incorporated into SMR by Uchida Ryogoro but is at best an auxilliary art to SMR Jojutsu. Furthermore, stylistic differences aside, Seigan (seitei no. 10) is technically different from its koryu origin (people with skull fractures and forearm tendonitis will know this one well).

Therefore it could be argued that Seitei Jodo comes from approximately 1.1875 styles of koryu.

[Fred27]

Does TSKSR really use the jo? I know they use bo since I've trained it myself, but I've never heard of them using the jo.

[Fred27]

Here are two other koryu using the jo..I dont think its their primary weapon though:

Muhi Muteki Ryu Jojutsu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_vp9_N_tZw)

Owari Tenshin Koryu Jojutsu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJKPkB2yub8)

And as Andy mentioned:
Suio-ryu (second half of clip) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSodKrQp6m4)

[ScottUK]

Cheers for the replies so far.
By the way: One could also ask why the seitei iai people did not include Tatsumi-ryu and Katori Shinto ryu (iai) into their new system, both of which include iai far older than the original MJER lineage.Not sure about this, fella. I understand that there are a number of historians who think the iaijutsu in TSKSR is nowhere near as old as their other weapon practices.
I believe the difference is that SMR is the only bujutsu ryu that has the jo as its primary weapon of choice.There's also Muhi Muteki-ryu jojutsu (listed here (http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkoujigyou/kankeidantai_03.html)). Interesting vid of them on YouTube, btw.

EDIT - Fred was quicker

[Fred27]

Cheers for the replies so far.Not sure about this, fella. I understand that there are a number of historians who think the iaijutsu in TSKSR is nowhere near as old as their other weapon practices.

I'd rather stay out of that debate :D.

[Andy_Watson]

Chaps

According to Skoss and Draeger references TSKSR includes the jo in it's syllabus.

I believe TSKSR would not have volunteered themselves into a ZNKR-based syllabus as that would mean changing their training regime which has AFAIK remained unchanged for hundreds of years, something that the Hombu practitioners pride themselves on.

I'm not sure that the age of the system is a relevant point. The point is that certain style leaders volunteered that they would contribute to an enactment.

The point still stands that SMR jojutsu was the most prominent style, by far, that had the jo as it's principal weapon system. Even the Muhi Muteki system is quoted on basing its techniques on the spear.

Comparing this to ZNKR seitei iaido creation, there were more iai teachers around with as many styles as you can think of that you could have chucked a shinken down the corridors of the ZNKR and wiped out at least a dozen unique lineages...

That last paragraph should of course not be taken too seriously...

[ScottUK]

Having practiced quite a lot of TSKSR I am certain there is no jo in their curriculum. Their polearm weapons are bo, nag and yari.
The point still stands that SMR jojutsu was the most prominent style, by far, that had the jo as it's principal weapon system. Even the Muhi Muteki system is quoted on basing its techniques on the spear.Yeah this makes the most sense - cheers.

[Fred27]

Chaps

According to Skoss and Draeger references TSKSR includes the jo in it's syllabus.

Its back to school for me..I missed such a reference in the latest TSKSR (Skoss) book.

[ScottUK]

I think 杖術 and 棒術 tend to be interchangeable sometimes. Kinda like senior Japanese teachers sometimes using the phrase kendo as a global study of the sword, including iai and kenjutsu.

Oh, and the staff art in TSKSR is definitely rokushaku-bo. Not sanshaku-bo (hanbo) or yonshaku-bo (jo)*... ;)

*I have also heard jojutsu called yonshaku-bojutsu...!

[Fred27]

According to Matsui Kenji's research on Shinto Muso ryu there exists a scroll which referrs to the art as "Shinto muso ryu bojutsu".

[ScottUK]

I think 杖術 and 棒術 tend to be interchangeable sometimes.
According to Matsui Kenji's research on Shinto Muso ryu there exists a scroll which referrs to the art as "Shinto muso ryu bojutsu".If you've never see a 6 foot lump of wood twirled around in the name of SMR then that proves my point... :D

[Fred27]

Yeh! "Bo" and "Jo" are used interchangebly by some ryuha & people.

The above video of Muhi Muteki-ryu jojutsu uses a "jo" though it is obvioulsy not 128 cm...Its not even as thick as a regular jo either by the looks of it.

[ScottUK]

Interesting stuff, this Nihongo malarkey.

OK, another question for the senior bods:

When studying seitei-jo, should there (in your opinion) be any time gap between starting jodo and studying koryu jo? I don't teach any koryu iai to my guys (unless I'm making a point) until they have a jolly good grounding in seitei iai. The nuances/variations between the two can really knacker up a person's current practice.

However, at the Nationals a month ago I did my first koryu jo technique (one of the Gohon no Midare - Tachiotoshi no Midare maybe??) and to be honest it felt just like studying a new seitei-jo form. Sure, being numpty I don't know the difference in timing/kihaku etc that is no doubt evident to the senior guys - but is it beneficial/detrimental to study koryu jo at a certain time in your practice? (not that I am in a rush - just sticking my nose in...)

[Fred27]

You did a gohon-no-midare kata? You lucky bastard!
(I cant answer yer first question by the way)

This is Tachi otoshi no midare (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_wv6JdY2lI).

[Harry Jones]

and to be honest it felt just like studying a new seitei-jo form.

No No NO! It was meant to be a mystical awe inspiring experience!:wink:

I would first consider the forms people need for their Ikkyu grading, but after that I see no reason why begginers should not start learning Omote. It would not muck up your Seitei "Style" in the same way that people worry about in Iai. Except of course all the rei-ho is different now.

Get stuck in and absorb all that your enthusiasm can cope with. Thats my philosophy.

[Harry Jones]

Yes it was Tachi otoshi no midare

[ScottUK]

No No NO! It was meant to be a mystical awe inspiring experience!Hehe you want a mystical experience? Drink this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe). ;):wink:


Get stuck in and absorb all that your enthusiasm can cope with. Thats my philosophy.I will try. I made a list of the various curricula I am involved in - and it was scary. Time to cut back a little - or quit work.

[Andy_Watson]

Harumph, I could have sworn I saw something about TSKSR using the jo as well - it stuck in my mind as I have never seen them performing it so I thought it might have been part of their middle or upper level teaching...oh well if I find it I'll mention it.

Re: learning koryu while learning Seitei, this is the bases of the Seiteigata:

1. Tsukizue = Omote
2. Suigetsu = Tanjojutsu
3. Hissage = Omote
4. Shamen = Tanjojutsu
5. Sakan = Omote
6. Monomi = Omote
7. Kasumi = Omote
8. Tachiotoshi = Omote (the first form actually!)
9. Rai Uchi = Chudan
10. Seigan = Chudan with smears of Samidare
11. Midaredome = Chudan
12. Ranai = Arguably Chudan or a section in itself after Chudan

So allocating numbers of kata to teaching sets:

Omote = 6
Chudan = 2
Ran Ai = 1
Kage = 0
Samidare = 1/2
Tanjojutsu = 2 (kinda)

So it isn't at all "aaht of order" to be learning at least forms from the first two sets before getting all of Seitei under ones belt. Most of the Omote forms are simpler than about a third of the Seitei anyway and there's no reason why the more elementary practitioner shouldn't practice koryu in exactly the same style as their seitei and then add flavour later on.

Ranai is bloody difficult and to achieve even a mediocre sense of flow and rhythm would take years and years of training - why not study some koryu to help ones Seitei. Lots and lots of the components of forms up to and including Samidare have been put into Ranai anyway.

As Harry has suggested, provided you cater for students' grading requirements there's no problem to learn koryu fairly early on.

[Fred27]

...or why not simply train SMR from the start with the proper speed already in place? :D

[Andy_Watson]

...or why not simply train SMR from the start with the proper speed already in place? :D

Don't feckin' start!

Proper speed in place, indeed....

[Kim Taylor]

I think it's been pretty well covered above, but consider that the ZNKR likely didn't send out a "rfk - request for koryu" notice. Those arts which were used for the basis for the seitei were likely those "close to hand".

In the case of jodo I believe the impetus to join the ZNKR came a bit more from jo than from the kendo folks suddenly wanting to practice jodo.

So, Shimizu sensei is in Tokyo, involved with the Keishicho, hanging out with the senior kendo and iaido folks... and says "hey let's have a jodo section for the ZNKR as well as an iaido section".

Folks agree, what schools of jodo do we use? What's around? OK SMR it is.

Doesn't need to be any more complex than that really, and if there were another jo school if sufficient influence in the ZNKR a kata or two could be added if desired.

Kim Taylor

[Fred27]

Speaking of ZNKR kata, have you ever seen the Uchiotoshi kata?
(stop me if I've asked this before)
I asked my sensei about the kata but he hasn't seen it.

[Kim Taylor]

I don't know any reason not to learn absolutely everything all at once.

Well, actually I can think of one reason... you won't learn a damned thing. You'll be so busy learning dance steps and scratching in the notebook that you won't learn the juicy bits, like how to move four inches to the right at just the right time.

OK now that I've said that I also realize that everyone goes through a collector phase and that at one time I knew over 200 iaido kata from various schools, but that doesn't mean it's all that good for you.

As far as jodo is concerned, I only agreed to practice ZenKen when I started because I had two other koryu to deal with at the time. I found plenty to work on for the next decade or so. Even now I'm not all that keen to blast through the koryu, what would I do with it all? I'm not in line to be Menkyo Kaiden so there's no rush.

I've seen enough over the years to know that there really aren't any secrets up there in the "beyond stuff" so it's essentially "more of the same". For those who figure timing changes, or attitude changes or seme can only be taught using brand new kata... well OK blast on through the curriculum and learn it that way but make sure you can demonstrate it in the basic stuff or you haven't really learned the lesson.

It can ALL be learned in the most basic kata of any school. It may be easier to teach certain things in one kata or another but it can all be learned in the simplest movement of any school.

Bottom line, fewer kata means you get to the meat of the learning faster, lots of kata means you spend some of that potential training time learning dance steps... all presuming you don't have infinite time to practice.

Kim Taylor

[Kim Taylor]

Speaking of ZNKR kata, have you ever seen the Uchiotoshi kata?
(stop me if I've asked this before)
I asked my sensei about the kata but he hasn't seen it.

There's an uchiotoshi kata in ZKR jo?

I see by a search that Ray Sosnowski says it's the first of the police kata, suigetsu and shamen are the next two. So the Kaminoda s. groups do it.

I've never seen that.

Or elsewhere in the search it seems to be hiki otoshi uchi practice, just a basic practice. Sure we do that one and any other "kihon" that will help get a point across during a practice.

OK here's a thread from 2005 http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-6878.html that's relevant.

Kim Taylor

[Andy_Watson]

I've never seen it performed but it is in Shimizu Sensei's jodo kyohan. I can translate the instructions and provide narration to the photos if anyone is interested...

[Kim Taylor]

Oop, yep there it is in Kaminoda sensei's book.

Gyakute Uchi otoshi to tachi in chuden, honte uchi to face.
OK I can do that one now but no, we don't do it.

Kim Taylor

[Fred27]

I've never seen it performed but it is in Shimizu Sensei's jodo kyohan. I can translate the instructions and provide narration to the photos if anyone is interested...

I wouldn't mind...as in I would kiss your ass for the rest of the year. :D

[Fred27]

Oop, yep there it is in Kaminoda sensei's book.

Gyakute Uchi otoshi to tachi in chuden, honte uchi to face.
OK I can do that one now but no, we don't do it.

Kim Taylor

Do you know why the kata is (now) so rare? Obviously Kaminoda Sensei knows it but I don't know if he teaches it to his students. I wouldn't mind learning it and pass it to my own students in the future, even if it doesn't add anything significant to the training other than a fun trivia:). I also don't think it would be fair to ignore the kata just because it is a "ZNKR reject".

[Andy_Watson]

Fred

Please go to the link below to download the translation...

http://www.fileshack.us/get_file.php?id=614734&file=Uchiotoshi.pdf

Please leave my ass alone though, it is a rare and precious thing. Even kissing it would be a form of desecration.

I made some notes about its non appearance in the document (i.e. I don't know) but the manual doesn't say why. Actually it's opening move resembles Aun from the Okuden with an aggressive forward attack from the jo.

[Fred27]

Fred

Please go to the link below to download the translation...

http://www.fileshack.us/get_file.php?id=614734&file=Uchiotoshi.pdf

Please leave my ass alone though, it is a rare and precious thing. Even kissing it would be a form of desecration.

I made some notes about its non appearance in the document (i.e. I don't know) but the manual doesn't say why. Actually it's opening move resembles Aun from the Okuden with an aggressive forward attack from the jo.

Consider your ass untouched.

If the uchiotoshi was a non-finished prototype (so to speak) then I can understand why it was not passed on.

Let me summon up what I think is described. (My inner picture of the kata is a bit blurry)

For shidachi you perform the same starting manouver as in Tachi otoshi, except you step forward and smack the sword down and immedietly follows up by a honte uchi on the opposite side.

The uchidachi is actually standing quite near the shidachi with the sword in its sheath and draws it and simply points it at the shidachis face. When the smacking commences uchidachi withdraws his right foot (as in a kihon uchi drill) and gets hit by the honte uchi.

It reminds me of samidare with the walking hikiotoshi strike.

[AMikko]

How close to shijos face uchidachi is supposed to come with his chudan no kamae? 50 cm? 10 cm?

Visiting sensei once showed me this kata and since he showed both sides by himself, the distance was left a bit vague.

I recall him turning his body to the right before the initial strike like the bokuto was right front of his nose.

Andy, did you have some photographs of this kata in the Jodo kyohan? They just might clear this detail for me.

[Andy_Watson]

Mikko

I do have photos but the quality is quite poor and I generally find that they keep the maai short in the book to stuff in as much as they can.

The initial maai looks to be about hikiotoshi distance: remember that the shijo takes a large step forwards with a gyakute uchi otoshi so they can't be too close.

[AMikko]

Thank you, Andy. That already clarified a lot. So shijo steps and strikes simultaneously. That's quite snappy kata! :)

[Kim Taylor]

Do you know why the kata is (now) so rare? Obviously Kaminoda Sensei knows it but I don't know if he teaches it to his students. I wouldn't mind learning it and pass it to my own students in the future, even if it doesn't add anything significant to the training other than a fun trivia:). I also don't think it would be fair to ignore the kata just because it is a "ZNKR reject".

Shi – Grasp the end of the jo with the right hand in a reverse grip;

I think you mean left hand don't you Andy? (Don't have Shimizu's book but Kaminoda's book comes from tsune no kamae so it is left hand) And Fred that means it's the opposite side from the tachi otoshi (Omote) strike.

The kata is not lost, the Kaminoda group practices it, and if everyone else picks it up and passes it along it will become part of the ryu.

The ZNKR likely didn't pick it because the lessons to be learned are learned in the kihon and on the other side is a couple of the kata, it's gyakute uchi otoshi and honte uchi, not overly complex at all. Timing and distancing and all sorts of other juicy things could be learned of course, but they can be learned in any of the other kata so with only 12 kata to work with, why not leave it out in favour of other kata.

As far as I've heard these three/four kata were taught at the Tokyo keishicho. They would be part of the lines from Shimizu sensei should those lines choose to carry them on, they may or may not be adopted by any lines that come from Fukuoka or from Nakayama Hakudo's group I suppose, but the operational key here is that they're new. Their survival will depend on the students, just as any practice, waza, kihon or kata survives or drops out depending on whether or not the students carry it on.

Suigetsu and Shamen will survive for a generation or so at least, since they're now fixed into the Zen Ken Ren jo and so thousands of folks practice them.

I have, in the depths of my body memory, a short stick (baton) kata and a double short stick kata that were developed at the University of Guelph in a mixed group of martial artists who had lots of time on our hands to do things like 600 situps just to see if we could do them. Those two kata were a lot of fun, had well-developed riai and will disappear when I die I'm sure.

So what? Anyone from that group could make up another kata in ten minutes which would be "the same" since we had our own way of moving and analysis of fighting by the end of our time together.

Anyone with sufficient training in the SMR can make up a kata from the description "gyakute uchi otoshi to tachi held in seigan, followed by honte uchi to ganmen".

Assuming the creator is working within SMR movement, it will be an SMR kata.

Kim Taylor

[Fred27]

Suigetsu and shamen survives in SMR groups too. Tsukizue, suigetsu and shamen were the first three kata I was taught and then going on to tachi otoshi, tsuba wari (and so on) They are excellent introduction kata.

[jmaia]

I am not shouting whore while trying to hit someone upside the head. Its just not budo... ;)

It may not be budo but it sure is a good way to keep the tachi's fighting attitude... If I am the tachi and someone tsukis me while calling me a whore, I sure would want to hit him afterwards... :)

jm

[Andy_Watson]

Oops, thanks Kim...

http://www.fileshack.us/get_file.php?id=852929&file=Uchiotoshi.doc

[torashin]

Pics to match the words perhaps

http://www.fileshack.us/get_file.php?id=384423&file=Uchi+Otoshi.pdf

Enjoy

Rgds

[AMikko]

Thanks, but it seems that there's just one page twice. Could You give us next page, please? :)

I just dream that someone would scan the whole Jodo kyohan by Kaminoda-sensei and publish it in the web with translations. The original book costs a fortune. :rolleyes:

[torashin]

Sorry about that !!!

Let's try again

http://www.fileshack.us/get_file.php?id=678093&file=Uchi_Otoshi.pdf

Worked for me :)

Cheers

[AMikko]

That's more like it! Thank you! :cheerful:

[nico storm]

So, after far too long a break from my jodo training, it seems its about time I started to seriously look at my practice again. I felt it was most beneficial to start looking right back to the basics, I often find that this has been beneficial in my iaido study. Whilst doing this I noticed something that appeared a little odd. Through my study of swordsmanship I have come to naturally assume a chudan no kamae where the kensen is pointing towards the opponents throat, thus always placing pressure on the opponent whilst in this posture.

But something rang in my ear that my chudan no kamae for jodo tachi should find the kensen on my own throat height. This would of course mean that the kensen is going to be aimed above shi-jo's head. I watched through the seitei jodo video, and this memory cerainly seemed to be supported. Although checking from a rather grainy video on youtube is hardly conclusive, so I thought I would ask here, for some advice. Should my chudan no kamae for seitei jodo place the kensen at my own throat height, and does this differ when practicing koryu?

[Andy_Watson]

This is a really good question and highlights that a lot of the basics of the arts are taken for granted that everyone knows them. Unfortunately that's not the case as I have found out for myself.

Firstly I should add that I think that this point about tip height is fairly academic as it has changed within the ZNKR a couple of times in the last few years, I think only to harmonize it with Kendo no Kata. When we practice SMR koryu jodo we go back to seigan no kamae for the Uchidachi. Current thinking in the ZNKR teaching of jodo is that the sword is throat height minus a little bit so that it is about shoulder height. That's the quick answer...

The longer answer follows. The concept of setting the kissaki height is based upon the notion of "kensen no seme" or the line of potential attack along the sword. This is sometimes called encho-sen or extension line. The trouble occurs when asking the question, does the line of seme travel along the line of the sword or from the tip of the sword in a horizontal line? When I asked Otake Toshiyuki Sensei he said both. When I thought about this further and tried working out some of the distances required for encho-sen to be effective I discovered that:
1. For the encho sen to be pointing at the eyes when the kissaki is at throat height you would have to be standing with half the swords' lengths overlapping (using sword v sword as an example).
2. To maintain eye direction encho sen at a 10cm awase position, one would need to hold sword around solar plexus level.

As said before when we practice koryu we normally steer towards seigan kamae (aiming at the eyes). Again, to be technically precise I have never seen anyone
actually have the encho sen towards their opponents eyes unless their kamae was badly wrong i.e. with their hands around chest height. I would suggest that seigan kamae refers to a feeling of extension towards the eyes rather than geometric accuracy.

In the end I always found it interesting that both types of kensen seme related an extension to the eyes. In seigan kamae (kensen at around eye height) if you extend your step or walk forwardsthen you find that the kissaki ends up in the opponents eyes. In chudan kamae if one extends the arms keeping the sword at more or less the same elevation then you spear the opponents eyes as well.

Probably best to learn this and experience this in the dojo as it is difficult to verbally explain (as I'm finding now).