Zazen...how to use it for Kendo [Archive]

Bokushingu

2nd August 2008, 12:59 AM

My wife was telling me yesterday that my Skill level improved dramactically but mentally I had regressed. This really confused me.

She said that my mind was too noisy & kendo was about Silence. anyway she went on to explain that a quiet mind can hear his opponent speaking. And that Kendo from a noisy mind tends to be quite ugly. this also confused me because i thought you needed to be threatening to create doubt.

when I asked her what she thought I should do all she said was Zazen. She said that most Americans she see doing kendo has very noisy minds & have left out a very big part of discipline training. I know that Zazen has something to do with Zen, but isn't that what Mukuso is for?

I will probably google some information on zazen, but does anyone here know how to use it in training? How do you be aggressive while having a silent mind? And how does doing Zazen help that?

Kenzan

2nd August 2008, 01:11 AM

Hey David,
I've been practicing Zazen for about 20 years now.
PM me and I'll share with you all the stuff I don't know.

Dervish

2nd August 2008, 01:20 AM

Bokushingu

2nd August 2008, 01:30 AM

I certainly don't claim to understand this concept very much, as I think way too much during kendo, but I think The Unfettered Mind (http://www.amazon.com/Unfettered-Mind-Writings-Master-Swordsman/dp/4770029470/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217607511&sr=8-1)by Takuan Soho might give you some thorough details.

ohh wow. I think i will get that book before going to work tonight. I did some googling and discovered that it isn't a quick fix type of thing: that it takes years of practice. which i guess is why my aid she'll check my kendo again in a few years :(

I also read that it's meditation. i watched a few videos on meditation from youtube.
zazen a guide to sitting (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3rh8Fc3ecd8)

how to meditate (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e0rSmxsVHPE)

I still have difficult understanding how you can fight without thinking about defeating your opponent.

enkorat

2nd August 2008, 01:46 AM

To be honest, I am not entirely certain if this is something you should do at the ikkyu-shodan border.

I'm not an expert in this either, but I do recognize the idea of "silence" in fighting, in that a lot of the kodansha that I fight are "unreadable", both because I'm not skilled enough to read them, and probably because they are better at either masking their emotions and intent, or they are indeed mentally "silent".

However, and I qualify this with a lot of "not sure", I'm not sure that it is a good idea for you to grapple with this sort of concept now, because the possibility of going down the wrong direction and misinterpreting an advanced concept as something "simple".

Above all I think we lack the experience, expertise, and perspective to do this right now. And changing your game plan or in fact breaking your game plan mentally right now might not be a good idea.

Bokushingu

2nd August 2008, 01:50 AM

enkorat

2nd August 2008, 02:02 AM

I think you may be right. the more i read the more it seems to deep for me at the moment. And I do have a busy Kendo schedule the next few months: 2 Taikai & Shodan exam.

I'll find out about it but worry about it after the testing.

thanks.

Yea...

I don't quite want to say this because it sort of sounds .... arrogant? But I think it would be better if when you take your shodan exam you look like a strong shodan, as opposed to trying to come across as your "interpretation" of a kodansha, because I don't think that would come across successfully to the judges.

kurisu

2nd August 2008, 02:12 AM

This book is an in depth look into this topic:

The Zen Way to the Martial Arts by Taisen Deshimaru

It answer's a lot of questions about zazen, and it is primarily focused on Kendo.

NigelSponge

2nd August 2008, 02:34 AM

zazen a guide to sitting (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3rh8Fc3ecd8)

yea......my legs don't do that lol.

Wookiesmurf

2nd August 2008, 03:26 AM

Not that it means anything either way, but a teacher of mine is a zen priest as well as a long-time TSKSR-practicioner. I don't think anyone has heard him advocate zazen as a way to improve. "More practice" is usually the standard answer. Make of it what you will:)

Kenzan

2nd August 2008, 03:33 AM

JByrd

2nd August 2008, 03:38 AM

I interpret a "noisy mind" to be the same as confusion, one of the four sicknesses we read about in Kendo lore.

Most of my strugggle to improve over the last half a dozen years has simply been an effort to become unconfused. Most of my progress has come through doing fundamentals like suburi, with the clearest possible sense of what I am doing while I am doing it. The key word here is consciousness, which I take to mean being aware of what I am doing. Of course, I can only be aware of a limited number of things during the brief time it takes to strike. That has forced me to reduce things down to the barest essence of the form; do everything that is important, and do nothing that is unimportant.

As I became more familiar with applying the most basic basics, I became more confident, and less confused. Gaining confidence and clarity in basic practice has made it easier to face an opponent without getting confused. The less confused I am, the less useless activity appears in my performance. More of my energy is focused on striking my opponent, which has improved my seme.

That's not to say that meditation won't help you, but for me, the best remedy for confusion has been the clarity and confidence I acquired from hard training. I just had to keep at it until I understood exactly what I was doing, and why.

Of course I didn't do it on my own; I had observe my teachers closely, listen to their advice, and question them half to death until I began to understand what they were saying. Thank goodness for the limitless patience and generosity of our senseis, eh?

Gessho

2nd August 2008, 04:26 AM

Our sensei says that being conscious at all times is key to good kendo. The simple practice of being in the present throughout your daily life will eventuall lead to better kendo. Well, that and hours upon hours of hard practice!

Bokushingu

2nd August 2008, 07:37 AM

thank-you everyone for the insight. I talked to my wife over the phone. And she said she will teach me zazen when i'm ready. I didn't know that she had taught it to our kids, but she said that is one of the reasons why they do well in school and sports.

i did reflect on my keiko & when I'm doing Suburi, Uchikomi, kirkaeshi, waza keiko, kakarigeiko--my mind is constantly analyzing what I'm doing.

ZealUK

2nd August 2008, 08:34 AM

This book is an in depth look into this topic:

The Zen Way to the Martial Arts by Taisen Deshimaru

It answer's a lot of questions about zazen, and it is primarily focused on Kendo.

I actually thought that book was alright the first time I read it, but nowadays I wouldn't recommend it.

I am also of the opinion that zazen will do very little to improve your kendo. The way to stop 'thinking' during kendo is to practice until the movements become habitual. Sitting on a cushion for extended periods of time will give you numb legs, maybe better breath control, a sense of relaxation, and if you're very lucky maybe some glimpse into what reality is all about, but it won't make your waza any better.

This is addressed in the Tengu Geijutsuron...

"What about the swordsmen of old who encountered Zen monks and were enlightened to the deepest meaning of their art?"

"It is not that the Zen monks were passing on the deepest meaning of swordsmanship. It is simply that when your mind is at peace, you can respond to things easily. You actually harass life when you are attached to it......

.....The swordsmen you speak of had been resolved towards the martial arts for many years. They had not spent easy nights of deep sleep, they had disciplined their ch'i, had done their very best with techniques, and had participated in many matches. Nevertheless, their minds had not been opened. They encountered their Zen priests after passing many years in deep chagrin, and had grasped the principle of life and death on their own. Upon hearing that all phenomena are but a reflection of the mind, their minds were suddenly opened and their spirits settled; they let go of what they had depended on and gained total freedom of action."

Practice technique first!

Zazen is great though. I do it occasionally at a temple near my house. My dad's been at it for years, and I'm pretty sure he can't do kendo.

Kagerou

2nd August 2008, 09:50 AM

To be honest, I am not entirely certain if this is something you should do at the ikkyu-shodan border.

If not now then when? Bokushingu said his wife is teaching his kids. Obviously she thinks earlier is better than later in terms of school education so why should the same not apply to kendo?

Bokushingu, I'd ask my wife to teach me if I were you. It can't hurt and it's another activity you can share as a family. You all just sit quietly and don't do anything...kinda like watching TV :laugh:

Gessho

2nd August 2008, 04:34 PM

thank-you everyone for the insight. I talked to my wife over the phone. And she said she will teach me zazen when i'm ready. I didn't know that she had taught it to our kids, but she said that is one of the reasons why they do well in school and sports.

That's weird that your kids are ready for it but not you....

Charles Lockhar

2nd August 2008, 05:39 PM

So there I was, at the zen Buddhist ryokan, awakened way before the crack of dawn from a really great dream about, well, none of your business.
The three of us, my girlfriend Eri, her friend Kazumi, and myself got up, rubbing our eyes, and trudge down the hall into the meditation room.

Sculpture of Buddhist deities all over the walls, incense burning, little mats for us to kneel on, it was classic. Along with our awesome selves were some Japanese folks, which seemed odd, as you'd think that, being Japanese, they'd know better, but there they were.

So we all sit, in seiza, on a mat, facing away from the center of the room. The Buddhist priest is going on and on about the meaning of zen, and buddhism, and zazen, and then begins hitting the gong thing. I assumed that I was the bad act he was calling an end to, but continued anyway. We all cozied in for a good sit down.

At some point I reached enlightenment, or I fell asleep, I can't really remember which. I suddenly heard this whacking noise, and out of the corner of my eye saw the priest hitting Eri in the back with a big stick. It looked like a pretty good whack, but she didn't complain, so I figured I could stick it out too, as I kind of recollected something about some whackings to keep you awake and energized or something.

So then the priest comes up behind me, and gives me two whacks across the back, on either side of the spine. Then, apparently feeling that those just didn't quite do it, he repeats, but this time hits me a lot harder, and I mean a lot. Then, apparently deciding that I really need a good beating, he whacks me two more times, really, really hard, right on the traps. Ouch. Luckily I'm used to abuse, what's a little S&M between folks, right?

So then the priest, I suppose he must have either decided he'd hit me enough or that his stick wasn't going to handle much more, moves on to our friend Kazumi. And that's when she just breaks down and starts crying and sobbing big time, because she just saw the lickings I was taking, and she's losing it.

And then I start giggling, because, well, I guess my sense of humor isn't all that well developed, I mean, with all this back hair it's pretty obvious I'm a caveman. So as I'm giggling I start to lose my posture, and get a whack to the back of the head to bring me back in line, and the priest skips Kazumi, probably supposing she was all awake now.

I love that zen stuff, good times. But I think it mostly teaches you to sit down and focus in a fairly controlled environment, which I don't see relating to kendo very well. Just my $2.22, adjusted for inflation.

-Charles

Charles Lockhar

2nd August 2008, 05:42 PM

Forget those other books dude, you need these:

http://www.amazon.com/Klingon-Way-Warriors-Guide-Virtues/dp/0671537555/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217665240&sr=1-5

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Official-Strategy-Generation/dp/1566868319/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217666429&sr=1-6

http://www.amazon.com/Klingon-Covert-Operations-Manual/dp/B000H9SI3A/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217666483&sr=1-15

That's all the book learnin' you need to know.

Ock mook delock!

-Charles

Bokushingu

2nd August 2008, 11:43 PM

Good Morning everyone. I just came home from work & read all the post. I talked with her some more last night and this morning. So she clarified that Zazen wont help my skill level in kendo--she say my skill level is already in good shape & good hands. She said it will make my Kendo look cleaner & it will help me doing my matches to read my opponent better because I won't be focused on worries or myself & my reactions will be cleaner & more fulfilling.

At the moment she says when I'm in a kendo match it looked no difference than when i was in a boxing ring.(not sure I agree). I did inform her of some of the concerns here & she said we can start after the Shodan exam even though she doesn't believe it will effect my kendo.

Now aparently every now & then before major school events or things my wife has been doing that with my son & daughter--now I don't know if they understand it or not. but I think she started teaching them as young as 5 they are 11 & 9

I'll give it a try after the exam, but I do need to be ready to play at the Stevenston in Feb. 09 I did tell her that I don't know how deep into this I can go...I think a little on the surface like mukuso should be fine--No lotus positions or back whacking.

as for the my kids learning before me...well i just wasn't into eastern culture much--kendo is the second besides my wife. I never thrust Christianity on her & She never forced Japanese Customs on me.

enkorat

3rd August 2008, 03:27 AM

If not now then when? Bokushingu said his wife is teaching his kids. Obviously she thinks earlier is better than later in terms of school education so why should the same not apply to kendo?

Bokushingu, I'd ask my wife to teach me if I were you. It can't hurt and it's another activity you can share as a family. You all just sit quietly and don't do anything...kinda like watching TV :laugh:

Mainly because I not entirely certain that it "can't hurt".

I'm basing my opinion on the idea that there is a curriculum in Kendo, and that at certain time points we're expected to learn certain things in a fairly regular intervals, based both on the experience we've accumulated mentally, as well as our physical readiness.

I'm thinking about the situation where I've tried to attempt to master "advanced concepts" (not really advanced "techniques"), based on chance comments, or something I read in a book somewhere. However, looking back on the experience realizing that I was both wrong, didn't understand what I was doing, and that it took much longer to deconstruct and reconstruct the right way after a sensei had really re-built everything from the ground up.

My concern is not theoretical. The danger, in my opinion, is that by adopting a hastily thrown together amateur's understanding of zazen philosophy, and applying it to Kendo at the ikkyu-shodan border (where in all honesty we are still pretty much also amateurs at that point), things could get broken at a critical time.

My feeling are based directly on Bokushingu's original question, how do you fight with aggression and intent to kill and win with an empty mind. This is not an easy question. It is not a question that can be answered in a paragraph, or even in a book. This answer represents an individualized experience over years, not something that can be done in a week or two.

At the ikkyu-shodan border, its already hard enough to fight with clarity of intent and adequate aggression and will (seme). It is the first time that you're required to demonstrate the existence of will and intent in a match. The thing that would concern me is that if you add "empty mind" to the equation without really practicing "empty mind" kendo, you'll end up not being aggressive or demonstrating adequate will, and at worst you end up looking unaggressive, sluggish, unresponsive, and slow.

And I know from experience if you do that it will guarantee failing the exam.

This is my opinion though.

deepvisual

3rd August 2008, 06:05 AM

it won't make your waza any better.

That's right.
but there is a lot more to kendo than waza.

and you certainly wont be learning all there is to know about zazen in 6 months.
The best time to meditate is now.
whether you are 6th kyu or 6th dan is irrelevant.

Kagerou

3rd August 2008, 09:55 AM

Mainly because I not entirely certain that it "can't hurt".

I'm basing my opinion on the idea that there is a curriculum in Kendo, and that at certain time points we're expected to learn certain things in a fairly regular intervals, based both on the experience we've accumulated mentally, as well as our physical readiness.

We sit in seiza after every class and "clear our minds"

I'm thinking about the situation where I've tried to attempt to master "advanced concepts" (not really advanced "techniques"), based on chance comments, or something I read in a book somewhere. However, looking back on the experience realizing that I was both wrong, didn't understand what I was doing, and that it took much longer to deconstruct and reconstruct the right way after a sensei had really re-built everything from the ground up.

If you can learn to control your urge to learn advanced techniques I'm sure you can learn to control your urge to push yourself in zazen.

My concern is not theoretical. The danger, in my opinion, is that by adopting a hastily thrown together amateur's understanding of zazen philosophy, and applying it to Kendo at the ikkyu-shodan border (where in all honesty we are still pretty much also amateurs at that point), things could get broken at a critical time.

That's why you need a teacher, just like in everything else.

My feeling are based directly on Bokushingu's original question, how do you fight with aggression and intent to kill and win with an empty mind. This is not an easy question. It is not a question that can be answered in a paragraph, or even in a book. This answer represents an individualized experience over years, not something that can be done in a week or two.

True but that isn't a reason not to do it.

At the ikkyu-shodan border, its already hard enough to fight with clarity of intent and adequate aggression and will (seme). It is the first time that you're required to demonstrate the existence of will and intent in a match. The thing that would concern me is that if you add "empty mind" to the equation without really practicing "empty mind" kendo, you'll end up not being aggressive or demonstrating adequate will, and at worst you end up looking unaggressive, sluggish, unresponsive, and slow.

I find that my "will" comes out more when I'm relaxed and stop thinking so much. Doing kata before jigeiko helps (non-stationary meditation)

enkorat

3rd August 2008, 10:49 AM

Mmm...

I'm not sure I'm getting what I am thinking across clearly enough.

To sort of flesh out this idea, I'm referencing Bokushingu thought about reading up on the topic. I agree that his wife might be a better resource for this sort of training, but I was not sure that simply reading a book would be helpful. I was concerned that it would serve more as a distraction and a source of confusion, rather than being useful.

I've read Bokushingu's posts, and I agree I have not watched him train, nor have I practiced with him personally. Nor do I understand particularly how his wife factors into his kendo training, and whether or not she is a part of kendo training, or if she is his senior, or an observer on the side.

Thus I agree I do not have all of the pieces, and thus I am not in a good position to offer the most complete advice, but I have read what he has written and I feel that I do have some idea of where he is.

Based on what he has said in previous threads and what he has said in this thread and others, and what kind of schedule he has with his kendo, I'm still not entirely convinced that this is the time or the place in his training to really spend a lot of time going down this road.

I don't disagree that elements of zazen and the idea of clarity of mind is important, it is invaluable the further you go along. However, where Bokushingu happens to be in his training cycle, he most likely has more fundamental and basic issues to polish, and my gut feeling is that his wifes comments are .... um....

I don't quite know how exactly best to say this.

Sometimes, my sensei deliberately tells me "I shouldn't say too much, because I will confuse you." One thing that deeply impresses me about him is that he knows, as well as other senseis that I know, when is the best time to broach certain topics, so that they are comprehensible within the context of my understanding rather than overwhelming me with someting too abstract or difficult.

I've had other sensei and sempai (most of them not in kendo), who have really unloaded "stuff" and topics all at once and at the wrong time, so that I've ended up either struggling and misunderstanding the concept, or getting discouraged, trying to learn things out of the appropriate order. or flatly denying that something like that exists.

I've experienced this a lot on the receiving end, and that is the feeling that I'm picking up from Bokushingu in reading his comments. I can tell you that i can guess some of the motivation of why certain people said these things to me during my training, but I don't really know.

But I've become much more aware of when and where to say things and when and where not to say things. It really impresses me about my sensei, really.

What concerns me, and perhaps I am in the minority, is that in my opinion from taking the shodan test twice, listening to the feedback from the first time, and also reading other judges expectations online and on this board, and discussing these things with my senseis, that this is something they're not looking much for in the shodan exam.

However, doubt and uncertainty is something that they are looking for in the exam. And while it may be completely true that Bokushingu has a "noisy mind" according to his wife, I think that having a noisy mind is far better than being beset by doubt and uncertainty, and calling into question your readiness in the exam.

My belief is that developing a clear and quiet mind is a good long term goal that can be reached by a number of different paths, but is not a high enough priority problem at the shodan exam level to be so concerned about it to start doubting the quality and quantity of one's training, or one's ability to pass the exam.

Hyarion

3rd August 2008, 12:58 PM

Hey David,
I've been practicing Zazen for about 20 years now.
PM me and I'll share with you all the stuff I don't know.

I love you.

deepvisual

3rd August 2008, 05:54 PM

meditation and kendo - its a bit like driving.

you don't need a map to learn to drive.
but once you can drive you need to know where to go and how to get there.

it makes sense to learn how to read maps while you are learning to drive - not wait until you get into the car to go on holiday.

in the same way, no point waiting until your technique is perfect before you start to work on your character

Hyarion

3rd August 2008, 08:21 PM

To be honest, I am not entirely certain if this is something you should do at the ikkyu-shodan border.

Perhaps not in regard to making your kendo better (the only thing that helps there is more practice). But in regard to every day life, by all means Bokushingu, start sitting zazen.

Also, the videos you posted. The first seems to be basics of zazen, the second looks like new age spiritual blahblah (but I didn't watch much of it, so I don't know).

Read some books by Shunryu Suzuki. He said: "When you sit, just sit. Do not try to gain anything. Just sit."

Bokushingu

3rd August 2008, 11:06 PM

My apology to all if I made a conflict out of the issue. I actually see the points of everyone. As for my wife experience with kendo, she stopped decades ago after highschool. But she does still meditate but not everyday I think. She did watch kendo & Sumo for quite a while for enjoyment.

Anyway I pretty much have strict goals & plans with Kendo. I will keep my mind open. I can't say how much I appreciate all of the concern.

Kagerou

4th August 2008, 09:28 AM

My apology to all if I made a conflict out of the issue.

I don't see any conflict, I was just having a discussion with enkorat. No need to apologise on your part, you asked a very valid question.

Whatever you decide I hope it works out for the best.

enkorat

4th August 2008, 10:11 PM

I don't see any conflict, I was just having a discussion with enkorat. No need to apologise on your part, you asked a very valid question.

Whatever you decide I hope it works out for the best.

Yes, I think this is an interesting topic regardless of whether or not I think its a high priority issue for your shodan exam. I just think its something interesting but not something to completely stress over.

That being said, for those who do practice zazen, what benefits or commonalities have you found with your kendo practice?

Perhaps this is an overly pragmatic question, but how have you found it useful?

Kenzan

5th August 2008, 12:06 AM

I love you.

Naturally.
I'm nothing if not lovable.
Besides, Risu are renown for out cuddliness.

GZA

5th August 2008, 03:08 AM

i quit reading the thread here, so sorry if this has been commented one allready:

thank-you everyone for the insight. I talked to my wife over the phone. And she said she will teach me zazen when i'm ready. I didn't know that she had taught it to our kids, but she said that is one of the reasons why they do well in school and sports.

i did reflect on my keiko & when I'm doing Suburi, Uchikomi, kirkaeshi, waza keiko, kakarigeiko--my mind is constantly analyzing what I'm doing.

Personally, i would say you never not ready to sit zazen. (I study Korean zen, so im sorry if i don't know many japanese terms, allthough i have read Suzuki Roshi so i know a few)

Personally, if there is not a zen center you can go to, then find the nearest one and send a letter to the zen leader there and just have a dialog that way. As far as practice. Just Sit. Don't think about you mind, or if your doing it right or wrong. In Zen, there is no right and wrong. Only not so good.

Seung Sung was once sitting zen at his zen center when a small girl looked at him an said "hey!!! I can do that!!" so she sat next to him in lotus and put her hands in the Mudra. Then after a few moments of sitting in the posture, she looked over at him and said "what do i do now?" Seung Sung looked at her and said "I don't know"

This is the way to good Zen. Just sit. Because that is what zen students do.
Just sit, write letters to a near by zen teacher if you can't see them in person. If you want something to read get "zen flesh, zen bones" and some other books of storys. Zen storys are the best way to see into the mind of a zen master.

For some reason when you said "I talked to my wife over the phone. And she said she will teach me zazen when i'm ready." For some reason i was a little offended by that. I do not think it is her place to tell you when you are ready. in Zen, you can only become dissillusioned, but with practice, you can fix this.

"my mind is constantly analyzing what I'm doing"
Yes it is. That is what our minds do. Do not TRY and fix this. It is like trying to force yourself not to blink. It will only make your eyes hurt.

Kenzan

5th August 2008, 03:15 AM

Zen storys are the best way to see into the mind of a zen master.

"Zen master."

I have always felt this expression to be a highly amusing one.

GZA

5th August 2008, 03:17 AM

"Zen master."

I have always felt this expression to be a highly amusing one.

LOL yes. I know. Much like Kendo, you can allways move forward, allways become better than the day before. Are you ever really done??

Kenzan

5th August 2008, 03:22 AM

LOL yes. I know. Much like Kendo, you can allways move forward, allways become better than the day before. Are you ever really done??

Too true.
But unlike Kendo, with Zen, do we ever really truly move forward?

As they say, We are born with nothing needed, nothing lacking.

GZA

5th August 2008, 03:31 AM

Too true.
But unlike Kendo, with Zen, do we ever really truly move forward?

As they say, We are born with nothing needed, nothing lacking.

someone asked Buddha once, "what makes your zen so good?" and he said "we eat when we are hungry, we sleep when we are tired"

Kenzan

5th August 2008, 03:40 AM

someone asked Buddha once, "what makes your zen so good?" and he said "we eat when we are hungry, we sleep when we are tired"

Nice!

I also recommend this book:

The Zen of Farting. (http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Farting-Reepah-Gud-Wan/dp/1583940855)

GZA

5th August 2008, 04:03 AM

Kagerou

5th August 2008, 06:59 AM

As they say, We are born with nothing needed, nothing lacking.

Then why do we put on pants?

Kenzan

5th August 2008, 07:07 AM

Then why do we put on pants?

Simple;
'Cause we're all deep down inside, a bunch of perverted, sex-crazed manics.

Besides, Squirrels refuse to wear pants.

Kagerou

5th August 2008, 07:23 AM

Simple;
'Cause we're all deep down inside, a bunch of perverted, sex-crazed manics.

Besides, Squirrels refuse to wear pants.

Deep down? Oh Kenzan you're always there to brighten our days with your humour.

Kenzan

5th August 2008, 07:26 AM

Deep down? Oh Kenzan you're always there to brighten our days with your humour.

It's like I've always said:

.

.

Kagerou

5th August 2008, 07:29 AM

It's like I've always said:

.

.

indeed......indeed

Bokushingu

5th August 2008, 07:56 AM

For some reason when you said "I talked to my wife over the phone. And she said she will teach me zazen when i'm ready." For some reason i was a little offended by that. I do not think it is her place to tell you when you are ready. in Zen, you can only become dissillusioned, but with practice, you can fix this

Believe me She didn't mean it in a belittle way. she mean't when I decide I really want to try it, she will help me. I don't think she considers herself a zen master or anything near it. I think she just does what has been taught to her. Personaly I don't feel that I'm ready to learn it at this point as Enkorat pointed out it is a very advanced concept. But now I do try to just sit & relax for 15 minutes a day without thinking or dreaming just to feel comfortable instead of just going going going--and it really makes me feel relaxed. You really can feel your center.

hl1978

5th August 2008, 11:29 AM

You really can feel your center.

Are you talking about in a physical manner or a spiritual manner?

Its always confusing in English since there are as I recall at least three different words for "center" in Japanese used in a budo and spiritual context and have different meanings, yet all translate into English as "center".

GZA

5th August 2008, 12:15 PM

Bokushingu, that's good to hear that i misinterpreted you.

Bokushingu

5th August 2008, 03:02 PM

Np, GZA actually thanks for your help :) as for center, I believe I can feel the center of my body.

Bokushingu

6th August 2008, 06:09 PM

Well Today i believe i played very well. I kept center very nicely. for about 5 days now i have just been sitting for 10 to 15 mins, relaxing, taking slow deep breaths while trying to keep thoughts from occuring. Thoughts still pop up up but I try to let them pass.

But today I did about 15 rounds of Jigeiko and only gave up 3 points against a variety of oppponents. i was also able to score 1 to 2 ippon per person. What i noticed: keeping my left hand centered with my center made it hard for opponents to score. applying strong pressure(seme) without planning or thinking allowed me to just go--it felt really good! a few times i almost forgot about my center & started to plan strikes but then I just took a deep breath while out of range(far to maai) & resumed pressure while just feeling my opponent.

during kihon, i allowed my aite to analyze me and i just went through the Kirikaeshi & uchikomi drills without thinking/analyzing.

What i noticed with a relaxed quiet mind:
1) my footwork felt cleaner & smoother
2) my posture felt straight and more solid
3) my hits/cuts felt and looked better and went straight with good tenouchi
4) my seme was more effective
5) my zanshin felt better & smoother
6) my waza felt more natural.
7) I could see when my opponet lost his/her center & oppertunities better.
8) my maai control was much stronger & smoother
9) I didn't get tired as quick--I don't think i have ever played that many rounds before

I think this level of meditation is good for me -- thanks everyone for the advice.

GZA

6th August 2008, 07:44 PM

Im glad your kendo is getting stronger. Also, don't TRY and keep thought from happening. Also, dont TRY and let them pass, Just Sit. Once a student asked his teacher "what is Buddha" his teacher only said "10 lbs of Flax" This is "Just Like This Mind".

15 minutes is not good, not bad. Generally from what i understand most people do 30, or two 30 minutes back to back with a break to warm up there legs in between. But go at your own speed, that's most important.

thoughts will still pop up in your mind 30 years down the road, this is just what your mind does. Don't become attached to these thoughts, But do not become attached to Silence either.

I look forward to hearing about your progress. Zen is a very beautyfull thing.

Bokushingu

13th August 2008, 08:11 AM

ohh man i had the worst taikai ever! lost by 2 points in the first round (which is a first for me). And i lost to someone I defeated 3x before.

I think I played way too passive: no snap, no hunger, no anger, no power, no desire to dominate.
When i trained in class i could see tons of openeing. and was very strong. when i played at the taikai i couldn't see anything while having a quiet mind.

I think some people need peace to perform in 1vs1 type of activities. and some people like me need to be angry and desire to dominate inorder to do well.

i will have to abandon the meditation & quiet mind & go back to the hungry-wanting to crush mind.

turboyoshi

13th August 2008, 08:20 AM

Kenzan

13th August 2008, 08:27 AM

Hmm, doesn't it seem a little early to make a judgment? I mean you only just started down this path. Typically, when introducing something new, it will break your kendo and once you incorporate it fully, your kendo will end up stronger than before. At least, that's how it's worked for me in other endeavors though I don't have enough experience to say this with kendo. I expect it to work similarly. :)

sean

I liked that.
If anything, I'd only add that judgment, good or bad, and goals in general for that matter, really are not is what is important ...Which I suppose is a paradox in itself.

Hyarion

13th August 2008, 08:27 AM

my little brother read some of these posts and said he thinks Zen is a giant game of "I know you are, but what am i?" LOL
I'll check that out. I don't read much about zen these days, i find that books can be a bad zen sickness. you can become attached to the words and your zen can suffer from it. Once i understood zen enough to know how to practice, i quit reading, lol

But i HIGHLY recomend this book:http://www.amazon.com/Dropping-Ashes-Buddha-Teachings-Master/dp/0802130526/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217876436&sr=1-1

Its called Dropping Ashs On The Buddha. Its named after a Koan that has plagued me for years lol. I gave up on it.

“Somebody comes into the Zen center with a lighted cigarette, walks up to the Buddha statue, blows smoke in its face, and drops ashes on its lap. You are standing there. What can you do?”

What was your problem? (Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to discuss it, just curious).

Hyarion

13th August 2008, 08:37 AM

The more I read what others are saying when they try to explain Zen, the more I realise that it is pointless. I think there is merit in analytic discussions of meditation, non-attachment and so on, because these concepts are just the way they are. But when people start dropping koans and quotes (I am guilty of the second, but I abhor the first), especially on an internet discussion forum, I start feeling a little... well, sick.

If other people make me feel like this, and I do the same things they do, then I realise I should probably stop.

In regard to the original question: I don't know.

whosesoever

13th August 2008, 08:38 AM

It would be best to just smile and let peace dwell in your heart.
On this note, a couple of years ago, the Taliban destroyed several monolithic Buddha statues in Afghanistan; all the monks I talked to told me that it is more important for us to have peace and happiness in our heart than to have anger arising with us.
For all of the Buddhist path is all about practice; if we are not able to practice, we have nothing except a clean Buddha statue. It in itself is worthless.

Kenzan

13th August 2008, 09:17 AM

(I am guilty of the second, but I abhor the first), especially on an internet discussion forum, I start feeling a little... well, sick.

Since only your body can experience your feeling of sickness, I'd say the problem is entirely yours to deal with.

Hyarion

13th August 2008, 09:24 AM

Since only your body can experience your feeling of sickness, I'd say the problem is entirely yours to deal with.

Was there ever a doubt?

turboyoshi

13th August 2008, 10:20 AM

Its named after a Koan that has plagued me for years lol. I gave up on it.

Isn't that kind of the point? Isn't it true that at least some koans aren't meant to have a solution but to force you to give up on logical analysis and just be, or do, or something that doesn't involve so much thinking?

sean

Kenzan

14th August 2008, 12:27 AM

Was there ever a doubt?

:rolleyes:

GZA

14th August 2008, 06:43 AM

ok. a lot of points, so i'll just generalize insted of quoteing. And im not turning off my Tom Waits, so my mind might not be 100% in the game, forgive me if i left you out.

Ok, to the person who was having probs and said he would go back to his more agressive strats....I don't think it matters, the point of useing Zen for kendo (as far as I see it at least,) is to get to where your mind is not so busy, so you can play kendo and not be inside your head saying "ok, he is going to do this, so i will do this, then that" But if you can do this your own way, then there is no diffrence. As far as I see it.

To the person who asked what my prob with the "dropping ashs" koan is. I simply cannot find the proper answer. I have worked hard on it, and my answers are never proper. But whatever, its my jurney, i'll get it one day ^_^

To the person who said that droping koans and such makes you fell "sick"....I guess i can see. Its not my place (or anyone else other than someones teacher) to drop koans and such on people. And talking about Zen is also sorta pointless. Forgive me for this but i have ONE more quote (i find zen is best expressed in these ways, for me at least) "Once you say the world "Buddha" you dump dung on your head" Ok, Im done with the quotes and koans. It might be slightly inapropiate.

to TurboYoshi, i just read over the topic to see if i missed anything, and i did miss your comment. i never thought of that. for some reason i thought this had an answer i could somehow communicate. all in all, it dosn't matter really.

Hyarion

14th August 2008, 01:12 PM

someone asked Buddha once, "what makes your zen so good?" and he said "we eat when we are hungry, we sleep when we are tired"

Like this.

I don't think there was any concept of "Zen" 2500 years ago. And I have no idea where you got this story from, but it is originally from 'Zen Flesh, Zen Bones' and goes like this:

80 The Real Miracle

When Bankei was preaching at Ryumon temple, a Shinshu priest, who believed in salvation through repetition of the name of the Buddha of Love, was jealous of his large audience and wanted to debate with him. Bankei was in the midst of a talk when the priest appeared, but the fellow made such a disturbance that Bankei stopped his discourse and asked about the noise.

"The founder of our sect," boasted the priest, "had such miraculous powers that he held a brush in his hand on one bank of the river, his attendant held up a paper on the other bank, and the teacher wrote the holy name of Amida through the air. Can you do such a wonderful thing?"

Bankei replied lightly: "Perhaps your fox can perform that trick, but that is not the manner of Zen. My miracle is that when I feel hungry I eat, and when I feel thirsty I drink."

Alan Watts also wrote in his book 'The Spirit of Zen': "Master Pochang said that Zen meant simply, ‘Eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are tired.’ "

So obviously someone has been borrowing heavily from someone else. Or they are the same person.

This is one of the reasons I do not like Zen quotes; simply because you can repeat something does not mean you know what it means. Another being that by throwing quotes around you are just using someone else's words. Which is ok if you are trying to help someone (perhaps by pointing them to certain literature, or clarifying a point), but not great if you have no right to try to help them or if you just want to make yourself look smart and zeny.

Bokushingu

14th August 2008, 02:28 PM

thank-you GZA for your insight. Someone was telling me that I can still have a quiet mind and be agressive, but it takes years of practice & meditation. At this point he told me to not abandon meditation but don't abandon my aggressive, hungry analytical mind & in years they will become one.

Not sure I understood him. But I practiced with an agressive mind yesterday & it felt good. however i still have the bad tatse of that defeat in my mouth. I guess I feel really bad becuase I lost from mistakes I knew not to make: going men without seme, going men from the ura side, going for kote & in mid swing change to men, loosing the center and ai-men.

GZA

14th August 2008, 10:56 PM

Hyarion--No, i was not trying to make myself look smart or anything, I was just useing a quote i thought would help him to understand Zen in a way that would make sence to him by useing something that makes sence to me. Also, Zen Flesh, Zen Bones was the first Zen book i ever read, So I'm sure we are talking about the same story. Sorry if i offended you in anyway. I wasn't trying to show off or anything. You are right about no Zen 2500 years ago. Point made right there i guess. I should have took a second to remimber there are other schools besides Zen before telling a story.

Bokushingu--I'm not an expert in Zen or Kendo (i have only been in kendo for a few mounths and have only been sitting Zen for two years) But Zen is not about putting a stop to thinking or anything like that, it is more so you can realize thoughts and be able to say "these thoughts are incorrect" however, the "silence" people talk about is like this:

Have you ever played like a fighting video game your very good at againts someone who is better than you but your just barely winning? If you try and think about his moves you will lose that second. If you start thinking about where on the screen your eyes are looking, then you will lose right then. So your body just zones out, your sorta blankly stare at the general direction of the tv and your body takes over. The person your fighting makes a mistake, you catch it and defeat them.
Now this is only a game, but if you thought about it you would lose. If you were not agressive. you would lose.

So as far as i can tell (given im not an expert) If "the goal of the sword and zen are one" then useing Zen to help your kendo would mean practiceing Zazen untill you can spar someone in kendo and be 100% in it. Not being like " i'll use such-and-such techniqe then such-and-such" but you see a move comeing, WithOut thinking, your mind and body is silent enough to take it in and react. If you think you will make the wrong choice.

So the way i see it, what happened was you were thinking more when you left your comfort zone. you went for kote, probably saw an opening and said to yourself "I can get Men now" and changed your mind.

My best advice would be to keep sitting Zen. But keep doing what you are doing. In time the peices will fit together. I would talk to Sensei about your Kendo and find a good Zen Center.

Bokushingu

16th August 2008, 12:10 AM

So the way i see it, what happened was you were thinking more when you left your comfort zone. you went for kote, probably saw an opening and said to yourself "I can get Men now" and changed your mind.

yep that's exactly the thought process that happened. I realize that i have to let that moment go & stop kicking myself in the head for it.

i totally understand your second & third paragraph. In boxing, we call it being in the zone. a few other sports refer to it as that also. The Shia's & Keiko sessions that I can play in the zone, I do really well. But it seems that I can only get in the zone by having really aggressive thoughts that may be inherit in my personal nature(which i repress on a day to day basis).

there is a player in my division that really is amazing to me. He dosen't train & when he does he gives it about 50% but yet he does extremely well. he even told me he's thought about quitting kendo becaause it's boring to him. He has no stress because he doesn't care if he wins 1st place or loses 1st round. but when i watch him play or play him, i can tell/feel he's in the zone. i haven't played him in shia yet, but I really want to play him more than I want to win my division. the very few times he comes to a shia & he's in my bracket, i screwed up & didn't get to play him.

So i'm thinking that people have different ways to get them in the zone or use the quiet mind.