Zanshin and seme. How different are they really?

[tango]

I think I may have had somewhat of a minor epiphany last night..
Long post, so bear with me... I'm just looking for thoughts from you guys on this..

(while I'm thinking about it, thanks to Thunder for dropping by our class and working out!)

So, a few weeks ago, Kato-sensei (NY) came down for a seminar and among the many things he pointed out, one item was that it was good (i.e., helpful) during kihon (when you're doing normal run-through drills like basic men, kote, etc.) for motodachi to follow up as soon as his partner runs through so that as soon he turns around, you're maybe just a few inches outside of yokote-no-maai. I didn't exactly catch everything sensei was saying, but my understanding was at least 2 things happen:
1. it helps motodachi to maintain seriousness/thoughtfulness/attacking mindset/zanshin/etc., rather than being a mindless target, and
2. it helps the partner to develop/maintain his zanshin throughout the excercize.

I have always seen higher ranked guys (4.dan+) do this at godogeiko with lower ranks, but I think I may not have really paid much attention to it. I guess I thought I was just being put through the ringer. ...Which is kinda what happened to me last week when we had Nagata-sensei (ECUSKF Team Coach) show up in class.

Fast forward to last night's practice and I think whatever zanshin I've been doing after a strike has been pretty much "empty posing" more than anything else. I recognized this as I was getting tired deep into class.

Sometimes, my mind was completely blank after running through. Other times, I made a conscientious effort to understand zanshin as if it were seme (I've never thought of zanshin like that before).

It really helped me to see/understand this when aite would not immediately follow me after my strike. In the former case (mentioned above), I realized that I am losing my attacking mindset at the moment I physically launch my attack and this "mindlessness" continues through the strike, through the turn around, all the way up to the point of getting back to to-ma, or approximately 12 inches beyond yokote-no-maai. At that point, I re-start my seme engine. When this happened, I almost always found my partners (both recently made 4.dan) already pressuring me, so I felt my pressure was already kind of reactionary in nature. Approaching yokote-no-maai, there was already a sense that I could not do some straight shikake-waza, but rather I was already looking to do some oji-waza (typically an attempt at suriage), and 90% of the time, my oji-waza was ineffective because I was both physically and mentally trying to catch up to the aite.

When I made an effort to maintain an attacking mindset throughout my strike and throughout the turn-around, and all the way back to to-ma/yokote-no-maai/issoku-itto, I felt much more relaxed and in control of what I was trying to do. I had more success striking in the follow-up engagements with aite when I maintained an attacking mindset throughout one exchange and through the next exchange(s).

So I got home and started thinking more about zanshin and I'm wondering if the concepts of the two -- not the definitions of the two -- are really the same thing?

I've heard some people say that zanshin begins and ends with rei. I think I may have heard some say that seme begins and ends with rei.
More than anything, I've heard folks speak of maintaining an attacking mindset throughout a match, but I think I've always been interpreting this not so literally, thinking only about having an attacking mindset at the point of trying to engage aite at to-ma, yokote-no-maai, etc., i.e., at the point of a new exchange. Even though it's been explained to me before, I don't think I've understood the point of engaging aite outside of the immediate point of "one of us is about to attack."

It seems that maybe you can't even begin to try and overwhelm aite with your spirit if you're constantly turning your spirit/resolve/intention/etc. on and off throughout a match.

I'm conceiving this as two friends seeing each other from about 20 feet away. Do you just look at each other, walk towards each other, and then when you're 2 feet apart initiate the conversation with "Hey, how's it going?" .... No, when you're 20 feet away and see each other, you immediately wave and say, "Hey!" .. you walk towards each other, shake hands, whatever.
The conversation starts at "Hey", some 20 feet away, not at the point of shaking hands. Maybe to get more philosophical, it's more true to say that the conversation started when you saw each other, just before actually saying, "hey!"...
And as you continue your conversation with your friend, you watch each other and you listen. But if I let my attention drift and think about other things, then I'm not taking part in the conversation. To take part in the conversation, I have to listen and talk the whole time we're engaged. If I turn my attention on/off, then I'm not really taking part in the conversation at all.


Sorry to ramble, but is this making any sense and does it appear that I may finally be understanding some simple kendo concept? Any thoughts? Anything else to add to this?

[MikeW]

I should be letting more experienced people answer this but here's my take anyways ;)

The 2 (seme and zanshin) are inter-related to a degree but not the same. Being continuously aware and ready to attack (zanshin) is different than pressuring (whether with physical or mental aspects.. or both) to attack (seme). Zanshin does carry with it some aspects of seme, but seme (IMHO) is more focused and directed. Zanshin is almost like a combination of tame and seme with an added degree of diffuse awareness. Tame and seme are more concentrated and directed, zanshin more open and diffuse. This is my take at this time from what I have gotten from various sensei I have practiced with, although I am of course always learning and re-assessing as I continue.

[Gideon]

Interesting thoughts. I look forward to the responses.

[Kenshi]

Wow, long post.

The easiest way to put it - or rather, how its often put to me is - 気を抜くな (ki o nuku na) - dont relax your mindset during keiko. That literally means, keep the connection between yourself and your opponent alive and dont rest (physically nor mentally).

You use the terms SEME and ZANSHIN, but these terms are hard to understand even for Japanese people, especially the latter.... so how confident are you in your understanding of them?

[ btw I am not trying to belittle your understanding of these terms: I am also engaged in the same study as yourself ]


I've heard some people say that zanshin begins and ends with rei. I think I may have heard some say that seme begins and ends with rei.

Ive never heard this before. Whats normally said is KENDO beings and ends with rei.... not zanshin or seme... because - linguistically - that doesnt make sense. I think youve miss-heard maybe?

[tango]

I should be letting more experienced people answer this but here's my take anyways ;)

The 2 (seme and zanshin) are inter-related to a degree but not the same. Being continuously aware and ready to attack (zanshin) is different than pressuring (whether with physical or mental aspects.. or both) to attack (seme). Zanshin does carry with it some aspects of seme, but seme (IMHO) is more focused and directed. Zanshin is almost like a combination of tame and seme with an added degree of diffuse awareness. Tame and seme are more concentrated and directed, zanshin more open and diffuse. This is my take at this time from what I have gotten from various sensei I have practiced with, although I am of course always learning and re-assessing as I continue.

Well, yeah, what you're describing as the difference is my understanding as well... that's what I meant in terms of "different definitions"...

I suppose I was trying to draw just a connection of the mental alertness that is present for both seme and zanshin being, in my mind, somewhat similar if not altogether the same thing (i.e., the idea of the "mental awareness" present in both concepts being the same thing... a mental preparedness to attack at any moment)..

[Shazzanzzz]

mmm just for discussion sake, IMO, I see seme and zanshin separately. Seme happens before the strike and zanshin is part of the strike, although i would say zanshin start at the beginning of the strike. I say that because I think you can still lose in seme, lose the point, but still show great zanshin.

[tango]

Ive never heard this before. Whats normally said is KENDO beings and ends with rei.... not zanshin or seme... because - linguistically - that doesnt make sense. I think youve miss-heard maybe?

No, I've heard that as well...

I've just heard "kendo begins and ends with rei" broken down moreso into seme and zanshin, since, after all, these two concepts are part of kendo.

Or.. .would you disagree with the idea that seme (and or zanshin) should start and end at rei?

[tango]

mmm just for discussion sake, IMO, I see seme and zanshin separately. Seme happens before the strike and zanshin is part of the strike,

Yeah, that's interesting. Zanshin being part of the strike is something I hadn't conceptualized before..



although i would say zanshin start at the beginning of the strike. I say that because I think you can still lose in seme, lose the point, but still show great zanshin.

That's kinda profound, but that was another thing I had considered last night (zanshin at the beginning of the strike), but it seemed somewhat contradictory in nature since we (I, anyway) normally only hear of zanshin afterwards.

This is also part of why I was trying to make a connection between zanshin and seme since seme is certainly part of the pre-strike activity... for lack of a better term.

Thanks, sean..

[Kenshi]

Or.. .would you disagree with the idea that seme (and or zanshin) should start and end at rei?

Everything depends on your definition of "kendo," "seme," and "zanshin."

[Shazzanzzz]

That's kinda profound, but that was another thing I had considered last night (zanshin at the beginning of the strike), but it seemed somewhat contradictory in nature since we (I, anyway) normally only hear of zanshin afterwards.

This is also part of why I was trying to make a connection between zanshin and seme since seme is certainly part of the pre-strike activity... for lack of a better term.



let me elaborate a little...

Like, from my understandings of kendo and how i do kendo. TO show great zanshin physically i have to have great momentum going forward or backwards. So for me, it starts at the beginning of the strike. And conceptually, i have to be fully commited to my strike to show great zanshin, which starts in the beginning of the strike also...

And I guess that's where seme and zanshiin connects? The momentum and commitment. Part of seme is having your body in the right position and posture to strike and score at any given time and show of readiness to threaten the opponent and having the mindset to commit to a strike? I guess I would say it's definitely connected, but I would still say they're separte because seme is pre-strike activity.

And I think before I used to purposely 'do' zanshin because my strike momentum wasn't good. But these days, I just strike and zanshin is there already because I have good strike momentum... If that makes sense. When I'm unable to have strike momentum usually it's when i lose seme so even if i hit (for example debana kote) I wouldn't look for it to be scored... Although some judges still score it...

[Paburo]

imho think theyre def different.

ippon without seme is possible, and is often seen in the young, fast kenshi. bang in a blink whatever is open af the moment without 'creating' the opening or pressuring the opponent into checkmate beforehand.

on the other hand, ippon without zanshin is no way ramon.

as you describe it, i don't think theyre necessarily linked either in my opinion. you can even stop or 'switch off' the pressure/seme after the cut (if you wish to) just as long as you went through the attack enough distance to be out of reach, or with enough 'readiness' to be able to block or counter in a blink...

[DCPan]

Sometimes, my mind was completely blank after running through. Other times, I made a conscientious effort to understand zanshin as if it were seme (I've never thought of zanshin like that before).

Hey Tango,

You might have just hit it on the nail for me.

A couple of practice ago, a sensei told me I was like a sine wave…alternating between being on and off, after watching one of my jigeiko.

So, when I got my chance to ji-geiko another sensei, I tried to off set that by being very opportunistic and forward pressing. Naturally, the next advice I got was I was impatient and working on the wrong thing.

Like you said, I think I’m like a sine wave because I don’t understand what sutemi means. Once I’ve committed to an attack, my mind pretty much goes blank like you say and my zanshin is “empty posing” and not aware. So, I have this lapse from beginning of strike until I get into chudan again. I’m sure I have other lapses too, but this is a big one :D

Personally, I think the common element that seme and zanshin shares is what Shazzanzzz said about “having your body in the right position and posture to strike and score at any given time” .

Lastly, regarding zanshin, I recall this scene from a “comic book” (yeah, heaven forbid) where the main protagonist was with his kendo club off in a mountain for “special summer training”.

Being the center of the story, he was obviously given the dirty and painful tasks like cleaning the temple they are borrowing for practice, cooking, washing the toilet, and dishes, etc.

The kid was getting annoyed that besides the rough training, the old granny would poke him with her broom whenever he wasn’t watching.

Near the end of the summer camp, he was washing the dishes when the granny sneaking up behind him to poke him. Without thought, he backhanded her with the frying pan he was washing without even turn around. The granny smiled and naturally his “extra awareness” was what got him and his team through the tournament.

Not the official definition of zanshin I guess, but I think it gets the point across in a Mr. Miyagi sort of way.

YMMV.

[JByrd]

I think it is the intersection of several important issues, both technical and philosophical.

As I understand it, seme is what happens before you strike, and zanshin is what happens after you strike. Zanshin is connected to seme because the finish of each strike becomes the beginning of the next -- exactly what George said about never losing the connection with the opponent. The connection is easily lost between the zanshin of one strike and the seme of the next, especially if you briefly lose sight of each other on follow through.

As for reigi, one shows respect to a keiko opponent by making a connection, and keeping it unbroken from start to finish. It means you are never ignoring or forgetting about the other person.

[DCPan]

Zanshin is connected to seme because the finish of each strike becomes the beginning of the next

Deep thoughts, simple words!

So, besides my lapse during the strike, I’ve been obtuse. :D

I’ve been thinking of practicing seme as something that happens between yoko-te no ma to uchi-ma.

Can’t wait until the next practice….

[DCPan]

OMG, it's embarassing that it never ring a bell what I could have been practicing as a motodachi....compartmentalizing is a bad thing....

[Masahiro]

good thought process tango,

i think the definition of "words"(language) can only serve as much purpose as one's ability to understand and interpret it. For instance, what is "courage" and "what does it mean to do the right thing". Even more arbitrary, concepts (in kendo) like "Do we really need fumikomi to achieve ki-ken tai ichi?" or "What is zanshin, and what is seme". I am not one for pinning one perspective on something and tirelessly hold on to that notion until the end of time, so long as people change, things will change and one's interpretation of it will change.

Your post reminds me of the reflection the moon casts onto the surface of the water. There can not be one without the other, and in that regard "seme" to you is more of a "presence" than anything else, and "zanshin" is one in the same. so, very thoughtful post. At this point, i think hope some godan and up KW forumite will chime in as I have nothing to offer but to say i think you've made a good discovery.

[Toshiro Mifune]

Zanshin is the continued state of mental alertness and physical readiness to instantly attack or respond to an attack or counter attack by ones opponent. It means different things in different martial arts and some refers to after an attack it must be maintained maybe by posture (more of a mental for kyudo after firing the arrow). But since your opponent can attack at anytime before or after in kendo. I think zanshin should be more of a continuous cycle all though sometimes if your zanshin is weaker at certain points you might be struck by your opponent. High level dan players usually have their zanshin constant and are always ready for their opponent.

Seme I see as the mental and physical pressure before you attack to when you strike. During shinsa the judges are looking how well your technique flows from your seme for the higher level dan.

[NigelSponge]

Wellllll, i think that their are two different kinds of zanshin, that have different relations with seme. I'm not that educated on the whole thing, but here goes!

It was interesting in your comment about your "seme engine" I think that is a good way to think about it. When your attack wasn't successful, you come to a rolling stop (zanshin #1) which still gives you enough momentum to accelerate (seme) again without disengaging the gear. But when you were successful, you come to a full stop (zanshin #2,) disengage the gear, and start (seme) again from stillness.

So they are definitely connected, whether they are the same thing or not, i don't know! haha

[JByrd]

Deep thoughts, simple words!

So, besides my lapse during the strike, I’ve been obtuse. :D

I’ve been thinking of practicing seme as something that happens between yoko-te no ma to uchi-ma.

Can’t wait until the next practice….

After I failed my first attempt at yondan, you mentioned to me that my follow through was so long that I lost my connection to my opponent. Indeed, I remembered a moment when I turned around not knowing exactly where my opponent would be. That was a very helpful observation! The circle is complete. :laugh:

I was practicing at Northwest once, and Doug Imanishi Sensei watched me receiving men strikes from a beginner. The beginner had major distance and timing problems, and was struggling to hit the target and make a good follow through. Instead of focusing on the beginner, Imanishi Sensei was on me, questioning every little thing I did, making me explain why the distance was wrong (with the implication that it was my fault). It was very intimidating, and it woke me up to how lax I had been in the role of motodachi, and how selfish it is to not give my best at all times.

[Neil Gendzwill]

To me, zanshin is being ready to go, seme is forcing your opponent to go. They're tied together but different things.

[MikeW]

Well, yeah, what you're describing as the difference is my understanding as well... that's what I meant in terms of "different definitions"...
I suppose I was trying to draw just a connection of the mental alertness that is present for both seme and zanshin being, in my mind, somewhat similar if not altogether the same thing (i.e., the idea of the "mental awareness" present in both concepts being the same thing... a mental preparedness to attack at any moment)..

I think, in my own mind, that the mental awareness present in both are connected but not exactly the same. In my mind one zanshin vs seme (and I guess my previous post maybe was a little hard to determine this from..lol) is somewhat like the difference between talking to a crowd of people and talking to just one person (maybe not a great analogy but the only thing I could come up with on spur of the moment). I think there are aspects of both that are connected, but that they are not the same in in all ways.

[kuzu70]

Tango, interesting thread. I dont' really have anything to contribute to the thread, but I just wanted to give Tango his props.
I look forward to the further kodansha input to this thread.

[Halcyon]

Like many things in kendo, I think one's understanding of seme and zanshin evolve over time, generally from the more overt and physical to the more subtle and mental.

Take zanshin, for example. As beginners, we are generally taught to express zanshin by going through, turning around quickly and holding chudan-no-kamae. But my sensei mentioned something recently that made me rethink zanshin. He said that as you get more experienced, the most important part of zanshin is that instant after you strike. That's why high-ranking sensei don't necessarily have to run through after they strike to express good zanshin. They've already shown good zanshin in the moment after they strike.

Similarly with seme, at first you think of it as just pressing forward physically. Then as you get more experienced, the less distance you have to travel forward to pressure your opponent.

As for how one does that, well, that's the experience, ain't it?

[tad]

I'm just impressed that you guys got Kato sensei to go to TN.

[tad]

That's why high-ranking sensei don't necessarily have to run through after they strike to express good zanshin. They've already shown good zanshin in the moment after they strike.




And here I was thinking it was just because they were old. Live and learn.

[Halcyon]

And here I was thinking it was just because they were old. Live and learn.
YOU are not old. I am old.

[NigelSponge]

And here I was thinking it was just because they were old. Live and learn.

i think its a little bit of both ;)

[tad]

Dude.....I'm planning on avoiding my birthday because I don't need the other law students knowing how old I am. I am thankfully camoflaged by my asian genes.

[tango]

I'm just impressed that you guys got Kato sensei to go to TN.

Heheh...
After much wailing and the gnashing of teeth by our folks, the good ol' AUSKF came through for an iaido mentor and we wound up talking kato-sensei into doing kendo on day 2.

[tad]

Heheh...
After much wailing and the gnashing of teeth by our folks, the good ol' AUSKF came through for an iaido mentor and we wound up talking kato-sensei into doing kendo on day 2.

This makes Kato sensei sound like Jesus.

[The great I AM]

What Neil said! I think they are 2 seperate things, but zanshin might well be the more mis-understood of the two...

I reckon that the hardest part is making the leap in understanding to realise that zanshin is not simply a criteria for a succesful attack, a movement that you are taught you must do in order for the strike to be valid, but something in and of itself that is a part of what you need to become stronger, and a real tool to use in an involved interaction with the dude in front of you. Afterall, you never see the "great" lose oikomi waza, right? Dripping with zanshin!

The way I've decided to think about it for myself, is that the zan of zanshin (残心) is also read as remain (残る), so after the attack I have to make sure that the greater part of my concentration remains in the process of things, ready to interact, in order to immediately begin my next attack, so that I never have to start from zero.

When I do a bit of ki wo nuku (気を抜く) I have already lost, and have to recharge myself and begin things all over again for the next round of interaction with my opponent. If they have kept their own connection alive and active, and are ready, then I'm already behind, and more likely to lose again.

[tango]

The way I've decided to think about it for myself, is that the zan of zanshin (残心) is also read as remain (残る), so after the attack I have to make sure that the greater part of my concentration remains in the process of things, ready to interact, in order to immediately begin my next attack, so that I never have to start from zero.

When I do a bit of ki wo nuku (気を抜く) I have already lost, and have to recharge myself and begin things all over again for the next round of interaction with my opponent. If they have kept their own connection alive and active, and are ready, then I'm already behind, and more likely to lose again.

Yes, Gibbo! That's exactly what I'm talking about! :)

Cheers

[Paburo]

This makes Kato sensei sound like Jesus.

that can't possibly be... for Jesus is my sensei :D :D (his real name actually haaaaaaa)

[Charlie]

A lot for me to think about. I personally have lots of little moments where I... it's not that I let my guard down so much as I relax a little, usually based on distance.

[dohrt]

So, whenever I do kendo-no-kata, I am always working on zanshin - from the moment I bow in to the moment I bow out.

What places is my zanshin most tested? Well, I'm no sensei, but it *feels* like the places my zanshin is most tested are:

1) Those three steps that lead me into ma-ai for cutting, which varies on the kata, but generally involves going from a safe distance to a dangerous one. Zanshin seems huge here.

2) After I cut. Whether I am uchidachi, or shidachi, there is always something happening after the cut that is important, though not the shiai-like death-wail and spastic elongation of "bellowing forth"-ness. Always some kind of seme, but it all seems to stand upon zanshin - not as a "finishing" of the previous action, but as a readiness for whatever happens, whenever it happens.

It happened recently that I was at a very small seminar, and while paired up at one point with a sensei, she stopped and almost laughed at me after 1 men-uchi, and told me, "I feel nothing from your kamae." She meant that I had no seme, but not because I wasn't trying - perhaps precisely because I was trying. Something like, "hey, I'm gonna attack - HEY, I'm really gonna attack, SERIOUSLY, I'm gonna *receives men* (ok, I wasn't ready, now I'm dead, yea, ok, got it)". Pressure without readiness? That's isn't pressure !

But what is readiness? After all, I hear on many occasions that it is very important to relax *immediately* after cutting, with respect to tenouchi. But yet, as beginners, we are told to "keep going through, show zanshin after cut, don't just relax, keep up your spirit!!". Methinks there is a difference between paralization through tenseness versus whatever zanshin really is. And of course, if zanshin's subtle ways are so significant physically, why should it not be even more subtle mentally?

Which led me back to zanshin / seme in the kendo-no-kata. We don't cut and go through in kendo-no-kata. So what is zanshin? What is seme?

Still chewing on that, as I have been for a long time, and probably will be for years and years ;)