Riai? Swordfights? Who knows?

[DCPan]

OK, a philosophical question here.

More than a couple of people here have mentioned that kendo isn’t about swords and sword-fighting anymore.

So, to play Devil’s Advocate, I have a question.

What is the riai of ippon based on then?

What is the structure for the logic of the exchange, if it has nothing to do with sword fighting?

For example, how can we, on the one hand, say it isn’t about sword fighting, then use the “if I had a real blade, your fingers would have came off already if you did tsuba-zeriai like that….”

:D

[Kenzan]

Ce qui est Riai?

[hl1978]

its something like the knowledge to make a purposeful strike

to the best of my knowledge, basically knowedge of how to make a "good" strike instead of flailing about

[The great I AM]

OK, a philosophical question here.

More than a couple of people here have mentioned that kendo isn’t about swords and sword-fighting anymore.

So, to play Devil’s Advocate, I have a question.

What is the riai of ippon based on then?

What is the structure for the logic of the exchange, if it has nothing to do with sword fighting?

For example, how can we, on the one hand, say it isn’t about sword fighting, then use the “if I had a real blade, your fingers would have came off already if you did tsuba-zeriai like that….”

:DI think the riai of ippon is simply a logical reaction to a reaction to an action, a mental step in one direction because of something happening in front of you. Bare with me.... You "seme" in whatever way you do - "action", your oppoent does something as a result - "reaction 1", you then hit him according to his reaction - "reaction 2", and ippon (unless you are poo).

This is a very base and almost too easy way of looking at it, but I think it's also the clearest way to see riai. You have your opponent doing what you want him to as a result of your seme, and because he is doing this you have a reason to hit him. Without your seme, or without his reaction, then you have no reason to move. So I guess in that way riai is based on yours and your opponents mentality in a given opportunity.

That might also be a load of nonsense though.

[Neil Gendzwill]

What Gibbo said. It's got nothing to do with real swords. From a kendo perspective, did you have a reason to attempt the point, whether it be that there was an opening given or one you created. Think of the classic mudansha match with the two sides charging in and swinging without regard to the action of the opponent - no riai there whatsoever. Then think of the buildup to a point in a kodansha match - does Koike-sensei (for example, just to pick a guy from your neck of the woods) strike without a reason to strike?

[Zornocology]

i've always been taught that you should always have in your mind that these are real blades. you should always fight with a sense of urgency that if you give your aite the opportunity, he will kill you. this is especially relevant in tsubazeriai.

keeping that idea in mind also helps me to keep up my attacks. I don't mean continually attacking without reason, but not missing a single opportunity and not giving any opportunities away.

[Neil Gendzwill]

i've always been taught that you should always have in your mind that these are real blades.Yes, but the "riai" means "reason to hit" not "reason we do it this way due to our historical connection with swords".

From a kendo progression point of view, I think of it as:

shodan - focused more on correct form
nidan - starting to understand opportunities
sandan - exploits opportunities that are seen
yondan - creates opportunities and exploits them

So from a grading perspective, riai is something we are looking at starting around nidan although at sandan you really must show this quality by not attacking needlessly.

[Peter West]

Yes, but the "riai" means "reason to hit" not "reason we do it this way due to our historical connection with swords".


This is exactly right.
Riai is the reason why at that moment you chose to do what you did
Bunkai is the logic of form, like, for example the explanation of what the enemy does and what you do in response in an iaido kata, or exactly how an oji waza works.

[Zornocology]

Yes, but the "riai" means "reason to hit" not "reason we do it this way due to our historical connection with swords".

From a kendo progression point of view, I think of it as:

shodan - focused more on correct form
nidan - starting to understand opportunities
sandan - exploits opportunities that are seen
yondan - creates opportunities and exploits them

So from a grading perspective, riai is something we are looking at starting around nidan although at sandan you really must show this quality by not attacking needlessly.

i see... sorry , i guess i misunderstood

[Masahiro]

I like what Neil, Gibbo, and Peter West said with regards to "riai" but to add on to DC's original question, if you will bare with me for a second, would you really do "maki-age, otoshi," with a katana? then in that sense does that there are certainly techniques that are only applicable to "modern" kendo due to the tubular shape of the shinai that would not other wise have been possible with a katana? so doesn't the original question stands then, you may have "whatever" reasons to do what you do, but if your intention was to kill your opponent, there's only so many things you "would" do. Is that why hachi dan kendo is always so . .."lazy"?

[DCPan]

I like what Neil, Gibbo, and Peter West said with regards to "riai" but to add on to DC's original question?

That's what I'm driving at.

What is the concept that gives shape to the riai. Logic is based some kind of an axiom or postulate, no?

So, if that isn't based on "the principles of the katana", what is it that we do which separates us from backyard bamboo stick tag?

[The great I AM]

That's what I'm driving at.

What is the concept that gives shape to the riai. Logic is based some kind of an axiom or postulate, no?

So, if that isn't based on "the principles of the katana", what is it that we do which separates us from backyard bamboo stick tag?Kata. Each kata has plenty of riai based around the use of sword, especially number 3, for you to fill your boots on.

[DCPan]

Kata. Each kata has plenty of riai based around the use of sword, especially number 3, for you to fill your boots on.

And what is kata :D What the panel decided was important from various koryu...which is swordsmanship, no? :D

[DCPan]

Really, we're just playing word games at this point.

I only did this because I thought it is amusing that people use "if we had a sword" to explain something when it is convenient, then dodge behind the "kendo is not about sword fighting" when it is inconvenient....

I guess we are all over the spectrum in terms of how much we think kendo is budo vs. martial art and that is what makes it interesting, isn't it?

[The great I AM]

Really, we're just playing word games at this point.

I only did this because I thought it is amusing that people use "if we had a sword" to explain something when it is convenient, then dodge behind the "kendo is not about sword fighting" when it is inconvenient....

I guess we are all over the spectrum in terms of how much we think kendo is budo vs. martial art and that is what makes it interesting, isn't it?I might point out that I am usually the last person to say "you can't do that with a real sword....."

If you want riai based around the use of a sword, look at kata, if you don't look at jigeiko.

There is your nutshell!

[Peter West]

Let's be clear about the purpose of Zen ken Ren kendo kata. It is like Seitei in iaido and Jodo, it takes bits from various koryu to give you a flavour of what working in the old koryu were like, but it is not a system in itself. ZNKR kata is an attempt to try and prevent kendo becoming shinai only, as was seitei iaido intended to get people who do shinai kendo to use a sword. Over the years they have grown beyond their original intention when created, but they both point to the ZNKR's original concerns that a shinai only kendo lacks something important.

While makikaeshi men in kata 3 is an interesting technique, as are the other kata, it is important to note that all the waza in ZNKR kendo kata were selected to relate fairly closely to shinai kendo methods. The sword is capable of doing much more, and so, to better understand how a sword can work beyond the limitations of shinai kendo it is necessary to go even beyond ZNKR kata and to look into koryu, such as Itto Ryu, Hyoho Niten ichi Ryu, Shinkage ryu etc. In these schools, very few of the techniques and strikes would be permitted in modern shinai kendo. Here you will find techniques that cannot be done with a straight shinai and to properly and effetively execute, need a curved blade.

Also in koryu you would learn the differences between blocking on the cutting edge and deflecting off the shinogi and many aspects of sword that do not, cannot find there way into shinai kendo.

This is not in any way to criticise shinai kendo, it is what it is, but it is only what it is, and the same applies to iaido, it too is only a piece of the puzzle. The pieces become more intelligible when the often-neglected middleground koryu are studied.

[Kent Enfield]

Let's be clear about the purpose of Zen ken Ren kendo kata. It is like Seitei in iaido and Jodo, it takes bits from various koryu to give you a flavour of what working in the old koryu were like, but it is not a system in itself. ZNKR kata is an attempt to try and prevent kendo becoming shinai only, as was seitei iaido intended to get people who do shinai kendo to use a sword.
No, the then-named Dai Nippon Teikoku Kendo Kata were created to teach people kendo. Apparently prior attempts at a standard (i.e. not specific to one koryu) set of kata weren't having good results in shiai.

The most succinct section on why what became the Nihon Kendo Kata were created in Takano Sasaburo's "Kendo" is what follows.

從來の武徳會劍道形及文部省選定劍道形は之を廢し、代ふるに「大日本帝國劍道形」を以てすることゝなれり。 從來の形はとしてのみ用ひられ仕合に應用し得ざるもの多かりき。此の形は僅に十本に過ぎざれども之を活用す れば何本にも應用するを得可し。實際の仕合に應用し得るを主眼としてこれを制定せり。


As for the former Butokukai kendo kata and Mombusho Sentei Kendo Kata [Ministry of Education Selected Kendo Forms], these were abolished and replaced with the "Dai Nippon Teikoku Kendo Kata". The prior kata, when used, contained many things that were not applicable to shiai. These kata, though there are merely ten of them, should be able to be used successfully, no matter how many or few there are, if they are put to actual use. They were established with the goal of being able to be used in actual matches.

It should be noted that Takano sensei lists every technique in the tachi kata as well as ukengashi, under ojikaeshi men (応じ返し面), in his sections on basic techniques in Kendo and Kendo Kyohon.

He never writes about kata being to keep kendo sword-related. That's an explicit premise of all of kendo at that time, at least in Takano sensei's view, and in all the other Taisho and early Showa era books I've read so far. The kendo kata are for teaching basic kendo, at least as kendo was at that time. In his curriculum for secondary students, he has them learning kata, which he puts in the kihon renshu (basic practice) section, before engaging in jigeiko.

I've written this before, but complaining that the Nihon Kendo Kata aren't a complete system is like complaining that Nage no Kata in judo isn't a complete jujutsu system, as both are meant to be part of a larger system.

[Peter West]

I've written this before, but complaining that the Nihon Kendo Kata aren't a complete system is like complaining that Nage no Kata in judo isn't a complete jujutsu system, as both are meant to be part of a larger system.

I wasn't so much complaining as explaining. That is what i said.
As far as the origins, that seems to get clouded in myth, mystery, interpretation, self interest (as far as claims to who was responsible for originating) etc. It seems to have evolved into the form it takes now, rather than having been formed as it is. (I subscribe to the evolution rather than creationist theory anyway). However, the origins aside, currently, I stand by my remarks concerning the specific aspect of the relationship between Kendo Iaido and koryu as I described it.

[DCPan]

I might point out that I am usually the last person to say "you can't do that with a real sword....."


Sorry, I wasn't directing that statement at you persay. It was more a general comment.


Let's be clear about the purpose of Zen ken Ren kendo kata.

This summs up my view.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=326669&postcount=34

[jmarsten]

OK, a philosophical question here.

More than a couple of people here have mentioned that kendo isn’t about swords and sword-fighting anymore.

So, to play Devil’s Advocate, I have a question.

What is the riai of ippon based on then?

What is the structure for the logic of the exchange, if it has nothing to do with sword fighting?

For example, how can we, on the one hand, say it isn’t about sword fighting, then use the “if I had a real blade, your fingers would have came off already if you did tsuba-zeriai like that….”

:D

The riai of kendo ippon and that of a shinken are not mutually exclusive. In both cases I create an opening in my opponents defense and cut them. If you go to the kendo dictionary for the definition of an ippon it pretty much describes what would happen with a real sword. However just as the mudansha can hack and slash each other with the shinai so can anyone with a sword.
Hence we have kata that defines the art of kendo..key word ART. Attaining the ability to do the above is called hachidan or greater.
More to the point is that because of all of these "concepts" even old men and women find kendo continues to be interesting and keep coming to learn.

[Kenzan]

pe·dan·tic /pəˈdæntɪk/ [puh-dan-tik]
–adjective
1. Ostentatious in one's learning.
2. Overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.
3. Kendo-World

[DCPan]

pe·dan·tic /pəˈdæntɪk/ [puh-dan-tik]
–adjective
1. Ostentatious in one's learning.
2. Overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.
3. Kendo-World

LOL, we'll see if you still feel that way when you start waving flags and have to justify your points at a shimpan seminar :D

[Kent Enfield]

As far as the origins, that seems to get clouded in myth, mystery, interpretation, self interest (as far as claims to who was responsible for originating) etc. It seems to have evolved into the form it takes now, rather than having been formed as it is. (I subscribe to the evolution rather than creationist theory anyway).
There's nothing "clouded" about the origins of the kendo kata. In 1912, a committee was formed to develop a new set of kata. Its members were:
- Takano Sasaburo
- Naitou Takaharu
- Monna Tadashi
- Negishi Shingoro
- Tsuji Shimpei
They developed the Dai Nippon Teikoku Kendo Kata ("Great Japan Imperial Kendo Forms") which were renamed the Nihon Kendo Kata after the war.

These kata are not a sample platter formed by taking representative kata from various ryuha as in the iai seitei gata or the Keishicho kenjutsu kata. Though you can clearly see influences, especially in the kodachi kata, none of them are X kata from Y ryu.

As for evolution, even in my little library I have a written description from 1914, a written description with photographs from 1930, and film of an embu from 1929. With the exception of the change from fumikomiashi to suriashi, they're consistent with how they're done today. Yes, there are some differences, but none larger than the differences that exist between teachers today.

[samurai80]

New question. If kendo was used as a training device for the Japanese, prior to the abolition of the samurai class, how is it no longer a valid sword art? I mean, that IS basically what is being said here. That kendo has no relation to sword fighting. It seems like if we all just wanted to better ourselves, there would be an easier way, that didn't require haya suburi, or bogu, or a pretend sword. If its about your mental state, and actions, and reactions, then wouldn't chess be just as good at this? Sometimes it seems to me, that we just want to avoid the silliness that is associated with "learning to fight with a sword".

[The great I AM]

It seems like if we all just wanted to better ourselves, there would be an easier way, that didn't require haya suburi, or bogu, or a pretend sword. If its about your mental state, and actions, and reactions, then wouldn't chess be just as good at this? Sometimes it seems to me, that we just want to avoid the silliness that is associated with "learning to fight with a sword".Bettering yourself doesn't mean making yourself hurt and putting yourself through the wringer for the sheer hell of it, and it also has to be something you intrinsically ENJOY in order to feel any benefit from it to, otherwsie you would not put in the effort that kendo clearly demands.

People do kendo firstly (as a general rule - I know there are exceptions!) because they want to, and they find something about it, anything, fun and enjoyable, and therefore push thesmelves at it. There is the first step to "bettering yourself", pushing yourself harder to do something tough and keeping at it.

If I wanted to "better myself" but hated kendo, I am sure that within 5 minutes of looking I could find somethng else, but I chose kendo.

[Peter West]

There's nothing "clouded" about the origins of the kendo kata. In 1912, a committee was formed to develop a new set of kata. Its members were:
- Takano Sasaburo
- Naitou Takaharu
- Monna Tadashi
- Negishi Shingoro
- Tsuji Shimpei
They developed the Dai Nippon Teikoku Kendo Kata ("Great Japan Imperial Kendo Forms") which were renamed the Nihon Kendo Kata after the war.

These kata are not a sample platter formed by taking representative kata from various ryuha as in the iai seitei gata or the Keishicho kenjutsu kata. Though you can clearly see influences, especially in the kodachi kata, none of them are X kata from Y ryu.

As for evolution, even in my little library I have a written description from 1914, a written description with photographs from 1930, and film of an embu from 1929. With the exception of the change from fumikomiashi to suriashi, they're consistent with how they're done today. Yes, there are some differences, but none larger than the differences that exist between teachers today.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't have direct access to the sources you have. What I had picked up from various places gave a very different picture. This has been very informative.

[Kent Enfield]

Thanks for the clarification. I don't have direct access to the sources you have. What I had picked up from various places gave a very different picture. This has been very informative.
No problem.

[Charlie]

Bettering yourself doesn't mean making yourself hurt and putting yourself through the wringer for the sheer hell of it, and it also has to be something you intrinsically ENJOY in order to feel any benefit from it to, otherwsie you would not put in the effort that kendo clearly demands.

People do kendo firstly (as a general rule - I know there are exceptions!) because they want to, and they find something about it, anything, fun and enjoyable, and therefore push thesmelves at it. There is the first step to "bettering yourself", pushing yourself harder to do something tough and keeping at it.

If I wanted to "better myself" but hated kendo, I am sure that within 5 minutes of looking I could find somethng else, but I chose kendo.

You could take a bath for starters! Hyuk hyuk hyuk. *ribs Gibbs*

It's a good question, Samurai80. One way of looking at it is though it predates the abolition of the samurai class, it has undergone thorough changes since then, both in the 19th and 20th centuries. It's something that's debated a lot and on which people have many perspectives.

[hyuna]

Bettering yourself doesn't mean making yourself hurt and putting yourself through the wringer for the sheer hell of it, and it also has to be something you intrinsically ENJOY in order to feel any benefit from it to, otherwsie you would not put in the effort that kendo clearly demands.
I don't agree. Enjoying the outcome is not the same thing as enjoying the process. It's possible to endure short-term unhappiness or pain in order to reap long-term rewards. In this instance, enjoying kendo is not the same thing as feeling a benefit or reward from being the sort of person who plays kendo.

In response to the original question, there is a benefit to practicing kendo as it is, even if it were not a "valid sword art" (whatever that means). You could surely improve yourself in some fashion from playing chess or doing tea ceremony, or whatever else, but they are not the same activity as kendo, and so the specific way that you "improve yourself" would not be the same.

[The great I AM]

I don't agree. Enjoying the outcome is not the same thing as enjoying the process. It's possible to endure short-term unhappiness or pain in order to reap long-term rewards. In this instance, enjoying kendo is not the same thing as feeling a benefit or reward from being the sort of person who plays kendo.

In response to the original question, there is a benefit to practicing kendo as it is, even if it were not a "valid sword art" (whatever that means). You could surely improve yourself in some fashion from playing chess or doing tea ceremony, or whatever else, but they are not the same activity as kendo, and so the specific way that you "improve yourself" would not be the same.So you don't enjoy keiko? I can't think why someone would regularly do something that they hated when the long term rewards are intangible (bettering yourself). I honestly can't think of anyone I have met who steadfastly disliked keiko in general, yet kept going for something that they haven't got.

Arguably, doing kendo for a lofty goal such as bettering oneself would not be a short term practise anyway, surely? I couldn't think of anything short term about kendo in that sense, so would you then say that long term suffering (where the hell do you practise?!) would be as applicable? And if we're talking about the very short term, such as your hayasuburi or kakarigeiko, it's still part of the whole (keiko) which I enjoy.

Perhaps I enjoy my kendo in general far more than other people do? I get what you are saying, but I don't agree with the longevity or magnitude implied.

[hyuna]

So you don't enjoy keiko? I can't think why someone would regularly do something that they hated when the long term rewards are intangible (bettering yourself).
Let me first say that I believe I understand what you mean about enjoying keiko. It describes how I feel when I boulder. After my hands give out, I still leave excited, energized, and disappointed that I don't have the strength to give that last problem one more try. And if I do finish the route, then I'm hungry for the next one. If I didn't enjoy each bouldering session, I simply wouldn't go. If I'm feeling off, and don't think I would enjoy it on that day, then I skip it. There wouldn't be any point to doing it without the enjoyment. So I think I understand the attitude you are talking about very well.

But it is emphatically not how I feel about keiko. I don't leave keiko feeling better. I leave feeling bitter at how badly I suck. I don't leave energized or looking forward to next practice. Going to practice, or to shinsa, or to shiai, feels like a duty or responsibility, even a burden. More then once I have asked myself why I keep practicing and if perhaps I am simply not cut out for kendo. I keep at it, though, because keeping at it is what kendo means to me.

I don't think that the long-term rewards are intangible in the least. I haven't been practicing super long -- since my last long break, it has been merely 15 years or so -- but it has been long enough that I can easily see how kendo has affected my personality and my life. I think it has all been for the better.

It's absolutely true that feeling as I do about keiko (and shinsa and shiai), I would have quit kendo long ago if I did not see so clearly how it affects my life. But kendo's lesson is to keep at it, to perservere, no matter how difficult. That lesson has been enormously positive to me throughout my life, and I think I have learned it well. In fact, I have learned it so well that I am unwilling to stop practicing, no matter how painful and unpleasant it is for me: kendo's lesson is to perservere and to overcome, and so I will continue to practice that lesson by practicing kendo.

[The great I AM]

Hmmm, the mother of all thread drift so I'll create another one.....

[The great I AM]

Let me first say that I believe I understand what you mean about enjoying keiko. It describes how I feel when I boulder. After my hands give out, I still leave excited, energized, and disappointed that I don't have the strength to give that last problem one more try. And if I do finish the route, then I'm hungry for the next one. If I didn't enjoy each bouldering session, I simply wouldn't go. If I'm feeling off, and don't think I would enjoy it on that day, then I skip it. There wouldn't be any point to doing it without the enjoyment. So I think I understand the attitude you are talking about very well.

But it is emphatically not how I feel about keiko. I don't leave keiko feeling better. I leave feeling bitter at how badly I suck. I don't leave energized or looking forward to next practice. Going to practice, or to shinsa, or to shiai, feels like a duty or responsibility, even a burden. More then once I have asked myself why I keep practicing and if perhaps I am simply not cut out for kendo. I keep at it, though, because keeping at it is what kendo means to me.

I don't think that the long-term rewards are intangible in the least. I haven't been practicing super long -- since my last long break, it has been merely 15 years or so -- but it has been long enough that I can easily see how kendo has affected my personality and my life. I think it has all been for the better.

It's absolutely true that feeling as I do about keiko (and shinsa and shiai), I would have quit kendo long ago if I did not see so clearly how it affects my life. But kendo's lesson is to keep at it, to perservere, no matter how difficult. That lesson has been enormously positive to me throughout my life, and I think I have learned it well. In fact, I have learned it so well that I am unwilling to stop practicing, no matter how painful and unpleasant it is for me: kendo's lesson is to perservere and to overcome, and so I will continue to practice that lesson by practicing kendo.
Double post goodness.

I think the root of our difference here is that I actually LOVE keiko, both before during and after. That single point on it's own, I think, is probably the difference to our outlooks.