Jodan and/or Nito-Ryu

[akihiro]

Are there any jodan and/or nito-ryu players on this forum?

If so, I am curious to learn how you got started and how you study. Also, at what level did you change your style?

In my experience, sensei who play jodan and/or nito-ryu are not so common. The only nito-ryu person I can think of is Toda sensei, who used to be a jodan player before he began practicing nito-ryu. There are a couple clips of him in the "Goodies" section of Kendo World.

[alexpollijr]

It's interesting that you'd ask such a question, I often wondered bout that myself. In this last Brazilian Champ there was only one guy doing nitoryu. This same guy was wearing a f* real Same Do.

Mind you, I found out later when he removed his men that he was a eighteen year old westerner one-year-and-a-half-of-kendo shodan.

Some guys from Paraguay who stood next to use made some pretty funny coments :D

Anyway, he was bad. He polished the right side of his opponent Dodai with about 20 blows with the shoto, and no one of them was valid. He lost in the first round to a ittoryu guy who unleashed such a wonderfull barrage of four strikes into about 1,5 second that almost tore his two swords from his hands, and finally ended into a nice yukodatotsu to the upper kote (the one holding the daito).

Recently I asked sensei if he could help me with Jodan fighting. he told me very puzzling things. Not like 'fear leads to hate, hate leads to suffering', but he asked me if I was lefthanded (which I'm not) and then he told me that I could change stances during the match at will. And that was it :confused:

So for the last three months I've been arriving an hour before renshu to practice Jodan waza , but I've still got to try it in shiai.

[Kendoka]

In shiai you can not score by using the shoto, only by correct datotsu with the longer shinai.

Richard

[inner_cent]

Actually, i don't exactly agree with Richard. recently, Toda sensei came down to Melbourne and taugh us about Nito. He did mention that it is possible to gain a point using shoto. However, the situation has to be very unique (Daito must ensure that the opponent's daito was suppressed ...I think that is what he ment), before Shoto point is counted valid. Even this point, is also a debatable as well. Anyway, the conclusion is, it is possible to score the point with shoto, but not anyhow forget the daito and just fight with shoto ..........

[alexpollijr]

So, what exactly is a valid point with nito?

[alexpollijr]

Plus, does anyone know in shaku the size of the shoto shinai?

[olaf]

Alexpollijr:

Bottom of page: http://www.boudicca.de/jap-10.htm

Just do a google search. I recall seeing similar information on one of the online budo retailers' web site. Maybe it was kendoshop.com

[lewis]

My understanding of Jodan is similar to Richard's: no points with the Shoto - it is only for defense. The valid points in nito are any valid points but with the daito.

Like Akihiro, I am also interested in the other styles within kendo. My experience in asking for instruction is the same as alexpollijr's. And all the people I have known that use jodan or do nito style just started doing it, essentially on their own. They don't get a lot of instruction other than the sensei saying a point was good or not in shiai.

[akihiro]

alexpollijr:

The length of the shoto has to be >62 cm for both men and women. One shaku is approximately 30.303 cm, therefore a shoto is roughly 2 shaku in length.

Also, the daito has to be less than >114 cm long, i.e. a 37 shinai. Again for both sexes.

For men, the shoto has to weigh between 280 - 300 g and the daito has to be <425 g.

For ladies, the shoto has to weigh between 250 - 280 g and the daito has to be <400 g.

How is your jodan training going? I've played jodan before, it's tough.

[alexpollijr]

Hard. I'm still trying to get that stingin' type motion that I see most experienced jodan fighters perform, it's a muscular factor I think. Also the sync of left feet stamp with katate waza from jodam is difficult to attain, if possible.

Anyway, it's just a hobby for now. I'm sticking to chudan during renshu. i'm very interested in nitoryu also, that's why the questions. It seems that only the guys at e-bogu sell appropriate shoto shinai.

[stakenaka]

Jodan is hard!
I am not sure what you mean about the "stingin" motion. If you mean a big, fast (and sore) hit, one way is to throw the shinai down with your right hand. Of course, you should only throw as much as you can control with your left hand.
Sync'ing the motion is hard. Doing fumikomi with the left foot is hard period!

[akihiro]

If you feel like, you can make your own shoto shinai from a broken 37 shinai (as long as the break is at the monouchi).

Jodan footwork makes you realize what beginners feel like when they practice ashi-sabaki.

The swing in jodan requires you to use both arms even though the stike may be one handed. The right arm launches the shinai with the left arm in the beginning of the motion and then the strike is controlled with the left hand. If you are trying to strike with only your left arm, it will not be as sharp. Hopefully this makes sense, my explanation may not be clear.

[stinkyKote]

hmmm, here's an interesting one, have you guys ever seen a woman do nitoryu? I've seen a few do Jodan around here, but never Nitoryu-

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by inner_cent
Actually, i don't exactly agree with Richard. recently, Toda sensei came down to Melbourne and taugh us about Nito. He did mention that it is possible to gain a point using shoto. ..........

Hi Innercent, we were at the same seminar !

Toda Sensei explained that it was possible to cut with the shoto (of course) as one would, if fighting with two swords. A tsuki with the shoto when in close is a joy to receive (!)

But, the original question was about scoring in shiai. He did emphasise that cuts made with the shoto would not be awarded a point in shiai.

Possibly to even the odds a bit for the opponent with only one shinai.

Richard

[lewis]

This is a great thread! Would some of the guys in Japan talk about Jodan and Nito. Stuff like how and how much they are taught? How many people do them? And, generally, what the other kendo players and sensei think of people doing them?

I have been trying jodan for a while, I agree, very hard.

The comment about the right hand was a helpful insight. Thanks.

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by Kendoka


Hi Innercent, we were at the same seminar !

Richard


I know !!! Richard, I know who you are, but not sure you know who I am :P haaha


Originally posted by Kendoka


Toda Sensei explained that it was possible to cut with the shoto (of course) as one would, if fighting with two swords. A tsuki with the shoto when in close is a joy to receive (!)

But, the original question was about scoring in shiai. He did emphasise that cuts made with the shoto would not be awarded a point in shiai.

Richard

Toda sensei did highlight those point you have mentioned. Most of time, shoto are purely for defences, and for "freaking" the opponent out (eg. tsuki with a shoto, not a valid point but damn shocking for the oppponent's moral). But he did mentioned, if nito player uses his daito, somehow, pushed and surpprese the opponent's daito to the side (literately to the side), and hold it there, Shoto can score a point with it. But this is still under debate.

But look at the reality, how often do you think you can push and hold down opponent's shinai to the side with only one hand ? and then try to score a point with the other ?

[qpuppy]

Heya Richard...

heheh.. yeah.. just to bust inner_cent's cover... he trains at Fudoshin as well.....
HE'S MY BROTHER... HHAHAHA...:P

[JSchmidt]

A very good exercise for improving Jodan is doing kirikaeshi from jodan. (Not just doing it one handed, but using the right hand to help with every cut and using opposite footwork).
I've 'messed' around a bit with jodan, mainly because I wanted to see what the fuss was about and I did actually learn a few lessons that have been very useful for my chudan.

Jakob

[akihiro]

stinkyKote:

True, I have never seen a woman nito player, but I have ran into a couple that play jodan. Most were quite scary.

Nice name!

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by qpuppy
Heya Richard...

heheh.. yeah.. just to bust inner_cent's cover... he trains at Fudoshin as well.....
HE'S MY BROTHER... HHAHAHA...:P

Hi Qpuppy, I know. he made the mistake of using "inner_cent" in his e-mail address.

R

[dr_evil]

I tried jodan just a few times but really is interested in doing more. I found that doing fumikomi with the left foot to be extremely hard. Anybody knows the training method for jodan??????

Cheers,
The Evil One

[samurai999]

The way to properly do Jodan is to master chudan first. That's the way I was told. if you have bad chudan basics, then it translates straight over to when you try Jodan.

Tim

[stakenaka]

Thats right. Jodan is very hard. If you don't have a good sense of timing and maai, you will be killed in Jodan.

[Will]

Hey Tim, is that you kono?!

oh, and shoto can't score a point, period

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by Will


oh, and shoto can't score a point, period



References please.
I understand this not to be the case.
-Ares2907

[Steve]

I've been attempting to learn Jodan no Kamae for a few months, and like most people say...its tough! The hardest part in my opinion is distance. You need to re-learn what your range is in Jodan vs your range in Chudan. Secondly, although the swing is fundamrntally "the same", learning to swing from Jodan has some subtle differences. Then, of course, is the most difficult thing in all of kendo to learn well: footwork.

I've had to learn all i know so far regarding Jodan (which really isn't much) by reading various books, watching videos, and experimentation. "learn to do by doing" applies i guess.

I recommend anyone interested in Jodan to purchase the "All Japan Police Competition" from kumdovj.com. Its a huge team competition, with at least one Jodan player on each team.
Second, if you can read Korean or Japanese go to Amazon.co.jp and search for Kendo. You'll encounter a lot of "textbooks", and most of the ones written for "non-beginners" will have some Jodan sections.

A friend of mine (who reads both Korean and Japanese) ordered a few books, and we frequently split on ordering videos. One of the texts he got shows various diagrams and explanations on how to attack (via Jodan), as well as how to incorporate it into your regular practice.

In the end, i think this quote from Musashi is appropriate:

"What is important in this path is to realize that the consumate guard (kamae) is the middle position. The middle position is what the guard is all about. Consider it in terms of large scale military science: the centre is the seat of the general, while following the general are the other guards. This should be examined carefully."

-Miyamoto Musashi, Gorin No Sho.

[kendokamax]

I tried to do jodan sometimes for fun ,, but it's too hard for the arms. You need to be really strong!

But I don't really like jodan because you can't (well I can't) really do tobi komi men from jodan no kamae . But I still think I will learn it at one moment, when my right shoulder or right feet is too painfull to do normal chudan. So jodan is only for me when I'm injured!

[stakenaka]

Hmm... I don't think Jodan will help if you are injured. Since you are pushing off with your right foot, you will put a lot of strain on it. Jodan is a highly agressive kamae, having to contend with a injured right shoulder or foot may not be a good idea.

[alexpollijr]

Hi there


In yesterday's practice I 've used jodan for a while in shiai geiko.
Although I had no sucess, my partner also did not. I noticed that employing the jodan waza is relatively simpler than i thought.

The resulting thoughtds about the experience is that
a) kote from jodan is effective in debana only. Otherwise is too risky since a miss results in your having to defend yourself with the left hand onyl.
b) migi men from jodan seems to get most people off guard, since they expect shomen and often would go for aiuchi. But if just bend the head a little (yes i know I should not :p ), he misses his shomen and the yokomen knocks him out

[kendokamax]

Well I tried jodan once when I was injured at my right shoulder and also injured at the bottom of my right feet (because my fumi komi was incorect and I had a cut in my foot lol), Well actually it was really less painfull than when I was doing chudan injured.

The right shoulder in jodan doesn't do as much movement (just helps push the shinai foward a little) as when I am in chudan where it has to do a bigger motion and I need to extend my right arm to get reach.


I don't know I may also be all wrong.


Jodan is hard to get a point against so it's a good stategy to have a jodan fighter in a team match! hikiwake for sure!

[JSchmidt]

"Although I had no sucess, my partner also did not. I noticed that employing the jodan waza is relatively simpler than i thought."


That was also my initial impression, until I encountered people who knew how to fight against jodan :D.

Jakob

[alexpollijr]

That makes sound sense to me :D

[kendo_chick]

One of the people that I have come to know from the Canadian Kendo team named Matthew uses nito-ryu. Also, because my boyfriend is very interested in using nito, we asked him a lot of questions about it. He started using nito when he was a nidan, but under the supervision of a sensei from Japan when he was there to visit.

As for Jodan, basically the same thing. Nidan and above are usually the only ones that 'technically' should start using Jodan. However, I know a few people that use it at shodan, though I'm not sure it's looked well upon.

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by dr_evil
I tried jodan just a few times but really is interested in doing more. I found that doing fumikomi with the left foot to be extremely hard. Anybody knows the training method for jodan??????

Cheers,
The Evil One

VERY curious here "dr_evil" ........... Did Chan sensei actually alow you doing that in NUSKK ???? :P I'm surprise he didn't teach a lesson or two for using them at your level :P

PS - Keep guessing who I am .......

[alexpollijr]

kendo chick

Yes, Matthew Raymond is well known to have made his way to the 11 WKC fighting nitoryu. He's very good. I've read an interview with him in the Iaido Newsletter from the Guelph School that he started nito practice while he was shodan, with three years of practice.

This kind of stuff as 'it's not well looked upon' to me is a whole load of nonsense, but it happens sometimes. I've hardly seen though a high level kendoka (yondan and so) look down to any jodan or nito students. The lower level are the ones who try to diminish these two 'styles'.

The personal opinion I've got from two sixth dan down here is that Jodan is OK from shodan if you want to practice. I believe the same goes for nito .

[Tato]

Matthew Raymond? That's courious, I've been practicing Kendo for a few months and I've already heared about this canadian kendo team member who played Nito at the last WKC.

Do somebody knows if he will be at Glasgow?

For an absolute beginer as myself, Nito (and Jodan) is very exotic and have lots of appeal, but I'm still waiting to someone in Spain practicing those styles.

Ciao!

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by JSchmidt


That was also my initial impression, until I encountered people who knew how to fight against jodan :D.

Jakob

So what is the best way to counter a person using jodan? please enlighten us all...

[samurai999]

Countering jodan? Hmm.. It sometimes depends on how their kamae is.. Also, how do they play? Are they jittery? Are they just standing there? Go to the Westside Kendo Dojo site and they still might have the Jodan vs. Jodan video that somebody recorded during the SCKF championships. You will see how the more experienced players look like.

The only thing else (for people playing against Jodan using chudan) is to have the shinai pointed towards the left kote of the opposing player. Left kote is a valid target if the opposing player is using Jodan. you also have to play with the maai. I was told that you generally move back and to your right to keep your distance. But of course, you don't want to spiral out of the ring. :D

My $0.02,

Tim

[kendokamax]

yup Matthew Raymond will be at Glasgow.
He was selected in team canada at the round robin that was held in Vancouver last july.

I think that guy is super usefull to the team, he can get hikiwake against anyone...I even heard he can even get hikiwake against the devil.

Last world championship he got hikiwake against Naoki Eiga...Canada almost won against japan that time..I think everyone knows the story of what happened in that fight.

[kendokamax]

Against jodan?

Tsuki tsuki tsuki!

I think mune tsuki was removed as a valid point because it was too effective against jodan people. is that the case?

[Vagabond]

Hello, this is my first post. My name is Marcelo and Im from Brazil.
I praticed kendo for 1 year 7 years ago but had to stop when I began college. Hopefully, I`ll come back to practice next year (Im looking for a dojo in Brazil north-east).
In Brazil there are (or were, I dont know if they still competing) very strong nito kendoka, the Kishikawas brothers (I dont remember their first names).
Does someone know if they still active?

[alexpollijr]

Greetings from the other extreme of the same country.

Neither Jorge nor Roberto Kishikawa compete anymore. Only Jorge used to fight nito sometimes, but most of the time in shiai he would use itto.

Nowadays Jorge and Roberto act as shimpam for the Brazilian Championship (Roberto was the chief referee at one of my matches) and help in the shinsa process. Roberto is coach of the Saga kendo team/SP and Jorge wastes his time teaching that rip-off version of Niten Ichi Ryu, which he claims was handed out to him by the soke of the ryuha.

[Vagabond]

I remember watching a tape from a Brazilian championship some years ago, when one of the Kishikawas (Jorge, I assume) used nito and won the 1st place. The tape was old, I think it was recorded in the late 80s.
I made a web search and found some clubs here in Bahia, but I probally I wont be able to join then untill next year :(

Marcelo

[stakenaka]

Countering Jodan...
As samurai999 mentioned you must use a modified chudan. This will help you to hit his left kote.
Some other tactics:
- Suriage men. Works well, since the Jodan player will be committed to hitting men. Essential that you have very good timing, otherwise you will hit the jodan player too close.
- Hidari kote. This works only if the Jodan player is very slow, and not very agressive. If he is faster and more agressive, he will hit men.
- Gyaku do. One of the few opertunities that Gyaku do is recommended over regular do (You will tend to hit the oppenents right arm if you go for regular do. This is a result from throwing down the shinai with the right arm)
- Tsuki, esp, Katazuki.

[JSchmidt]

Well, I did my first full of hour of ji-geiko in jodan last saturday and have commited to changing to jodan...although despite getting encouragement from teachers & seniors, I still have to run it by the main teacher :p
I don't think my body has been this sore since I started kendo. Left arm, of course, but also both back and stomach muscles, as you hold your body slightly different. (Or rather,,I did, anyway). I think I got less than a handful of points and must have attempted to cut men a million times :).
It's a little bit like starting all over again, with the main difference being that I can still see the opportunities, but find it difficult to execute to the cuts.
It (and the recent discussion) also prompted me to start a journal again. It's going to be interesting to look back at this :D
One thing that really helped, was this quote I found about jodan.

"Both positions (hidari and migi-jodan) are taken with a feeling of looking down on the opponent with a spirit resembling a raging fire. "

Jakob (still only a single matchstick)

[lewis]

Great! Keep it up. Please, check back in from time to time with any updates or thoughts about playing jodan.

[Steve]

Well, i have recently learned something Jodan training. Its a subtle point regarding the striking. Even though i read it before in books, its one of those things you just kinds of have to discover through practice.

When you are going to strike, be sure that you keep both hands on the shiai UNTIL the tsuka is in front of your face or lower. DON'T remove your right hand before that!!! This helps produce the fast and more importantly controlled strike you need for katate waza. If you let go too early, you end up with a large arcing motion for your shinai.

I also have been told by Sensei R. Murao (Team Canada head coach) that Kote (morote AND Katate) should be the strong point of Jodan not men...or at least the mere threat of it. An opponent who knows you can hit kote is much more easily controlled by your seme. Thus opening all of the targets to you. Without this, your Jodan will be useless.

Once i began attempting kote and men more equally, my Jodan began to improve almost magically.

As for training, you should encourage you fellow kendoka to go for tsuki as much as possible. Once your fear of Tsuki attempts are gone, your Jodan becomes more powerful. It also gives you a great opportunity to learn Jodan's Anti-Tsuki waza, which gives you a great opportunity to hit men.

[JSchmidt]

Hmm, I never did update on this :)
I haven't done jodan for the last 6 weeks, as I was going for (and got) my nidan 2 weeks ago, but I'm very much looking forward to getting back into it again, when practice starts up again.
As for letting go of the shinai, well, it comes automaticly with the way I cut. I only really use the fingertips on the right hand and use the thumb to flick the shinai forward...so by the time the tsuka is in front of me, the right hand automaticly comes off.
My teachers/sempais all emphazise men-cuts, for the same reason as with chudan. If I can't cut men (technique wise), I can't cut kote...that doesn't mean I don't cut kote, but the main focus is on the men cut. (And for now, I pretty much stay away from do-cuts..too much work to do on other stuff).
As for tsuki, I had a couple of 'sessions' from my sempais early on, with a barrage of tsukis, to show me what I was getting into and I have encouraged my fellow kendoka's to go for it. (It's a very good opportunity for them to practice it as well).
I've also been taught to cut with the left hand in the center, by bringing the left elbow in as I start the cut. Done correctly, this will not only stop the tsuki, but also means that my left kote will disappear if the opponent goes for that, providing a good (debana/ai-uchi?) opportunity.
What's also important (for shiai purposes), is hiki-waza. Jodan isn't all that hard to defend for more experienced people, so the best scoring opportunity often comes from tsuba-zeriai.
All the tehcniques in the world wont help if you don't have the right spirit/confidence. You do need to have the feeling of 'raging fire' and show complete confidence...even if you get hit.
I was told it would probably take 2 years before I could reliably score clear and big ippon.
The biggest lessons I've learned from doing jodan, has been a new level of appreciation of distance, pressure and footwork, so in that way, I think all teachers should teach some jodan, as it really amplifies those issues. It has most certainly also improved my chudan, because of that.

Jakob

[2muchryt]

i heard Mathew Raymond scored a kote with his shoto in a big shiai.
can any of you Canadian kenshi out there ask him if it's true?

there is a guy out here (cali) who won our nissei week taikai using nito.
i hear he is now an alternate for the US team.
too bad the US will face Korea (and probably lose) before we face Canada.
if the US faced Canada, we might be able to see a nito vs. nito
match in the WKC.

[alexpollijr]

Raymond uses gyaku nito I believe
Therefore it'd be tough for him to score kote on a chudan fighter, since his shoto is in the right hand, trying to hit the right kote of the opponent which would then be on the opposite side.

[kendokamax]

isnt gyaku nito- the other way around with the left hand having the shoto?

[Steve]

Gyaku nito has the long in the left, short in the right. I've never heard of Matthew getting a point via the short sword. He strikes with it quite often to kkep the offense up, but never have i seen a point scored.

But, I'll e-mail him and ask.

[Phorest]

Is it possible to learn Nito right from the start? Or would that just be extremely hard?

I think it'd be fun to only know how to do Nito, therefore by the time you got to shodan you'd be pretty good at it vs. someone who started nito around sho/nidan.

Just a thought. I'm pretty sure it'd also be difficult to find a dojo that would be willing to teach you this way.

[kendokamax]

The thing with nito is that you only use one hand....so it,s quite tiring...I think if I would have started nito at the begining I would have given up kendo pretty fast!!

But it makes sense, why couldnt a school teach nito right at the beginning?

[Steve]

Well, you need to learn to crawl before you can run. The basics of Nito / Jodan / Age-to or whatever rely implicitly on knowing the basics of Chudan based Kendo.

Most say it is recomended to begin a new Kamae around Nidan, but shodan seems to be quite acceptable by many sensei I've met.

[kendokamax]

Well, you need to learn to crawl before you can run. The basics of Nito / Jodan / Age-to or whatever rely implicitly on knowing the basics of Chudan based Kendo.


But think about it, if there was a dojo with only jodan people, why would beginners have to learn chudan first? They would just learn strong basics for jodan in the first place. But dojo like that would be quite rare (does it exist?)!!

[Steve]

I guess its technically "possible", but i think it would make the absorbtion of techniques much easier if you understand chudan. I know for me, learning Jodan has actually helped my chudan.

Imagine trying kendo for the first time and being expected to do katate waza. How do you teach the concept of controlling centre when you have no kensen.

Again, sure it would be possible, but the learning time for those kendoka would more than double.

[Steve]

Here is the response i got from Matthew Raymond concerning points via the Short Sword in Nito.

--------------
Theoretically it is possible to score a point with the shoto if it is
delivered from the standard long shinai distance and sufficient control is
shown. However, generally points are not awarded for strikes with the
shoto. There are exceptions. I have in fact scored a point on one
occasion with a backwards men. The men counted because my opponent was
blatantly just trying to do nothing but hold my long shinai down (he was
actually hunched over and almost hanging off of my arm) while leaving the
rest of my entire body free. So after looking around at the judges for
awhile I slowly lifted my small shinai and then delivered a rather "strong"
men and used a lot of zanshin.

Regards,
Matthew.
-----------------

There you have it, right from the horses mouth as they say. Also, just to add to what he says above, the IKF rules state that:

a point can be awarded via the shoto if the daito is being used to suppress or control the opponents shinai.

Needless to say, they are rare.

[Inouye02]

2muchryt

The guy you are refering to is Fumihide Itokazu from Covina Dojo, He is in fact a very good nito ryu, I have had the opportunity of practicing with him, and all i can say is whew !!

and yes he is a member of the U.S Team going to Glascow, Also on the team is another member from Covina Dojo, Katsumi Chinnen, who is a very good at Jodan, so if you would like to see these 2 top notch guys head to Covina Dojo .

Jamie

[moocow65]

well, i've been doing nito for about 2 years now.... 2 years come this february. i started nito cause i was getting really bored with itto. with nito, there are alot of fun combinations you can do and stuff. don't get me wrong tho, i'm very serious about doing nito. i trained my arms for like 3 or 4 months doing various excercises that i made up i.e. suburi with a bench pressing bar. so if you wanna do nito, i strongly suggest you prepare your arms first, cause there's no point in doing nito if you can't even hold the shinai for more than a minute. yeah and don't do what i did and just start doing nito without telling my sensei about it. but, it's pretty hard doing nito anywhere other than japan cause you gotta teach yourself everything. there is one sensei i know who's really good at nito, and so i learned some of the basics from him as well as some knock-out waza, like the yoko-men that would KO anyone. other than that, you're on your own, so you better know a whole lot about kendo i.e. seme, timing, kime, blah blah blah. oh yeah, and make sure you're pretty decent before you go in a tournament. EVERYONE'S gonna watch you. so you better not embarass yourself and your dojo by stinking up the whole place with messy, ugly, and weak nito kendo. i've seen that too many times and it really gets to me. oh yeah, i met a girl in tokyo during the japan college national championships... she does nito. i also did nito against the great, legendary, all-mighty TODA sensei. talk about intimidation. but he was really cool about me doing nito (I'm from the U.S. so that's why i was really hoping he didn't think of me as some jackass trying to look cool) and he taught me alot of stuff. luckily he didn't do nito against me, or else i wouldn't be here posting this. i also took a picture with him! one last thing. i believe there are two philosohpies to nito. you seme your opponent non-stop. don't confuse this with attacking, you should NEVER attack as much as you would with seigan, but just keep on pressuring your opponent with your daito and shoto and you'll either make your opponent look like a cowering beginner, or he/she will open up, and then you go for the point. the other philosophy is to "turtle" up. just go in defense mode and frustrate your opponent till he/she does something stupid and then strike. lastly, try to make your nito as beautiful as possible, no hack and slash beginner stuff. sorry for writing so much.

[JSchmidt]

"and make sure you're pretty decent before you go in a tournament. "

I was told not to use jodan in competetions until it's better than my chudan.

Jakob

[Phorest]

Moocow, great info! Thank you for sharing. One question for you though, what is your rank? When did you begin doing Nito and how long had you practiced itto beforehand?

[moocow65]

I am a san-dan now, and have been doing nito exactly two years ago and it's really fun, but frustrating at times. I've been doing kendo for about 14 or 15 years I think. I don't even remember anymore, I'll have to look that info up. In reply to the previous post, I don't think it's really possible to compare different kamae because they all have their strengths and weaknesses. So it's really hard to tell if your seigan is better than your jodan/nito/hasso. And if it's based on what people you can beat, it doesn't really reflect which kamae is better either because some people are really strong against seigan and stink against jodan and visa versa. If your seigan isn't that great, and you start jodan, then it'll only take a short time before your jodan is "better", but it still might not be nearly good enough to last in a tournament. If you've been doing kendo for a long time, then you yourself will be able to determine if you're well-prepared for a tournament.

[Phorest]

Haha....so I still have a "few" ;) years to go before I'm at that level.

Ah well.

[NukF]

I´m practising Jodan Kamae for 2 month and I have to say it`s really improving my whole kendo, because training in a different kamae leads you to another way of realizing. Everytime I changing from chudan to jodan it`s like " unleash hell!"
. It`s like you can feel the fire burning. Looking from above at your opponent, doing seme whit your feet screw the pressure up till the point of attacking.
It`s not that I´m not trying to do the same in chudan, but the feeling in jodan is much more aggressive.
But i have some questions hoping someof you might solve them.
After hitting katate Men where do i put my left arm? Is it like a men uchi? Or do i pull it back over my head to jodan kamae?
What is the best way of showing zanshin for tournament fighting in jodan after scoring katate men or katate kote?
Is it possible to score (katate/morote) do from jodan?
What about tskui from jodan?
So that has to be enough for the moment.
I hope some of you can help me! :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Same zanshin as morote techniques I think. As you hit katate-X from jodan, draw your right hand to your waist. I find it more difficult to move through or back when in jodan, so be sure to *move* with the point, don't just stand there. Standing in one spot having made your shot is even more dangerous than doing it from chudan.

As far as katate-doh or tsuki from jodan - I'm sure it's legal, it's just tough as hell to control either of those.

[JSchmidt]

Katate-men zanshin is similar to morote: Go through, using the shina to lead (Still at men height).
Tsuki: Forget about it...it's probably possible, although I can't really see how it could work :)
Morote-do is doable: I tend to do gyaku-do, as it's a lot more natural from jodan. I find it difficult to maintain posture during normal side-do.
In general, I cut gyaku-do when people will start to block/lift their arms the moment I move/ do seme. Step across with the left foot as I start the cut towards the men and then change direction to the gyaku-do. (I still need to work on the footwork after the cut, though).
Katate-do : I've been told to practice, more as a control exercise than anything, but again, it's largely impractical, as you will leave yourself very open for a counter-attack. With morote-do, it's much easier to close down the distance. (It comes as a natural progression of the cut).
As Neil said, you need to close the distance (or go through) after every cut.
Also, with jodan, you need to work a lot on hiki-waza, as against more experienced players, it can be the only chance you get to score points

Jakob

[Steve]

NUKF:

Just be sure to close in on your opponent after EVERY strike, even if you screw it up, when doing Jodan. In fact, don't just "close in", RUN if you have to. Especially on a flubbed katate strike. Run right at your opponent.

Hold the shinai at Men after hitting a katate men, and keep your right hand at your hip until you run into your opponent.

For kote, keep it at kote or "flick" your wrist upwards. your left arm is still at kote level, but the shinai bounces up to a vertical position. Keep your right at your hip till you run into your opponent.

Morote Jodan waza are equally important as the katate strikes. Men, Kote, Do, and Gyaku Do...you'll need them all.

They KEY to Jodan is the ability to make the opponent break their kamae. "faking" one attack and then changing to another. Depending on how your opponent reacts to your "fakes" a different target opens. So, you need morote shomen, sayu-men, kote, Do, and Gyaku-Do.

Also learn hiki-waza. As explained above, they are incredibly important.

Tsuki. Well you "could" do it, but it would have to be a secondary strike coming out of either a harai waza, or a morote nidan waza. Not very practical.... I've tried it. ;)

JSchmidt: Gyaku Do. I've been doing a lot of research on the footwork for this, and i thikn i got it. In fact just the other day during some shiai-geiko i got a point on my opponent using Gyaku-Do. Maybe this may help you a bit.

Type one: forward Zanshin

1) Step forward on your RIGHT ala Chudan and hit Gyaku-Do.
2) Turn you body slightly via your hips to the left.
3) Step to the left via your left foot, pulling your shinai across the opponents Do. When you finish your leftward step, your shinai should have "cut through" the entire do and have been pulled to the front of you (ala chudan)
4) Turn your body (via your hips) the same amount you turned it left, but his time back to the right. Step past your opponent by stepping forward with your right foot. Zanshin.

If you picture the footwork in your head it ought to look like this:

The (rightfoot) / (leftfoot) indicates which is your leading foot for the step.

^ (right foot)
/
/
<---- (left foot)
^
/ (rightfoot)
/

Type 2: backward Zanshin (this is the one i got a point with from Tsubazeriai)

1) step forward on your right (ala Chudan) hit Gyaku-Do
2) Turn you body to the left as described above in order to "cut" your opponent.
3) once your cut is complete, tur nyou body back to face the opponent, and perform Zanshin while moving back and away from the opponent at a 45 degree angle relative to them.

eg

(2) (left foot)
<--- ^
(3) / /
/ / (1) (right foot)
v
(face opponent, moving backwards)

Hope that helps you guys a bit. If you want i can get my roomie to scan a few pics from a Japanese Kendo book showing the above topics.

[JSchmidt]

Yeah, I'm sorta working on type 2.
I'm suffering a little from practicing too much in crowded conditions and tend to avoid going to side.

Jakob

[Steve]

mmmm, didn't view my post after it was posted. The arrow drawings are all messed up... sorry. Hopefully the word descriptions were enough.

[NukF]

Thanks very much to both of you.
Steve some pics would be awesome!
At first i`ll concentrate on Katate Men and Kote. The most important thing for me is the footwork. Without improving it most of my technics will be uneffective.
So i`ll let you know how it develops :D

[Steve]

What kind of pics would you like to see?

[NukF]

Gyaku-Do for example.
But i`d like to see all the other technics too. Like katate kote or the morote technics.

[Steve]

ok, I'll get my roomie to scan 'em. And post 'em up in a few days or so.

[NukF]

That sounds great!

[Chusan]

Originally posted by NukF
Gyaku-Do for example.
But i`d like to see all the other technics too. Like katate kote or the morote technics.
Hi NukF,
you might consider asking your sensei, won`t you?:beard:

[moocow65]

tsuki impossible? no way. it's very possible. well i do nito, so it's pretty much like jodan except with one hand. to do the way i do tsuki, you just swing down like you're gonna hit men, but you hit the tsuki kinda at a downward angle, and right when you make contact, you thrust your arm out. or you can just swing your shinai down to the level of the tsuki and just thrust from there. it can be done, but it takes alot of practice. i practiced it a hundred times a day for a few weeks, and i actually hit some nice tsuki on high ranking people. but if their kamae is in neutral chudan position, don't try it. it has to be relatively open, for the jodan tsuki to work.

[Inouye02]

hey moocow65, you are right tsuki is possible, Nakauchi Sensei was teaching me a waza for it , little hard , but with practice it can be done ...

[mochi_pig]

This is an interesting thread.
Just curious, can someone use two daito in nito-ryu?

[Neil Gendzwill]

This is an interesting thread.
Just curious, can someone use two daito in nito-ryu?
Nope, not legal. You have to use the regulation pair where the daito is max 114 cm (37) and the shoto is max 62 cm (~20).

[Nishi]

tsuki impossible? no way. it's very possible. well i do nito, so it's pretty much like jodan except with one hand. to do the way i do tsuki, you just swing down like you're gonna hit men, but you hit the tsuki kinda at a downward angle, and right when you make contact, you thrust your arm out. or you can just swing your shinai down to the level of the tsuki and just thrust from there. it can be done, but it takes alot of practice. i practiced it a hundred times a day for a few weeks, and i actually hit some nice tsuki on high ranking people. but if their kamae is in neutral chudan position, don't try it. it has to be relatively open, for the jodan tsuki to work.

We have a very good nito player here in the Northwest of England, who fights daito in his right hand. He sometimes throws dummy men cuts to bring your shinai up to defend, and as your occupied he attacks with shoto-tsuki....is this point scoring moocow? Or is this just discourgment?

It is easily suriage'd, but if your sleeping you'll get hit, and it will wake you up...i never no if its valid or not though?!?!?

[eKenshi]

stinkyKote:

True, I have never seen a woman nito player, but I have ran into a couple that play jodan. Most were quite scary.

Nice name!
how scary? :paranoid:

[rockum]

We have a very good nito player here in the Northwest of England, who fights daito in his right hand. He sometimes throws dummy men cuts to bring your shinai up to defend, and as your occupied he attacks with shoto-tsuki....is this point scoring moocow? Or is this just discourgment?

It is easily suriage'd, but if your sleeping you'll get hit, and it will wake you up...i never no if its valid or not though?!?!?

Shoto-tzuki is prohibited in shiai.
If someone do that then he will get a penalty.

[Nishi]

Shoto-tzuki is prohibited in shiai.
If someone do that then he will get a penalty.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8181&postcount=58

Just found this post after searching around a little more on the topic.

[moocow65]

shoto tsuki prohibited in shiai? yes and no. it all depends how you do the shoto tsuki. i remember when i was trying out for the men's US team, the shinpan warned me that if i did shoto tsuki very close, for example, during tsubazariai, then it would be a hansoku. however, if they come for men, and you tsuki them with the shoto to stop them, it should be okay with the shinpan. i'm not sure if shoto tsuki to get an ippon is possible, or if the rule book says it's valid. i just used shoto tsuki to stop opponents dead in their tracks. you can't move if you got a shinai in your throat. hahah. again, it's all about how, and when you do shoto tsuki.

[k3nsh1n]

There seem to be alot of discussion on jodan/chudam no kamae
I understand that Jodan is an 'advanced' kamae considering its difficulty
to use well in matches but the question is, if it IS mastered, is it that much more effective against chudan? Coz if not, why use it? or is it for the sake of accomplishment and variety in playing style.

[moocow65]

Interesting question. Well I believe that some people are just better suited for Jodan rather than Seigan. I believed that I was better suited for Nito than Seigan, and I couldn't have been more correct. In 3 years, my nito skills have surpassed my 12 years of doing seigan. If you're 195 cm tall, then doing Jodan might be better than seigan simply because of height. Hitting men would be so easy. The kenshi must decide which kamae will be best for him.

[rockum]

I didn't know that point you described..
I have heard it from an Nito player.
Now, I can use shoto tzuki. ^^;

[cazoo]

those without much experience should stick with chudan. (i wont consider 1-2 years enough of a experiance) chudan is the basics, so stick with it until you have atleast had like 4-5 years experiense.

[Steve]

Just to let all the people who participate in this forum a bit of info.

I attended the Ontario Senior Open in Toronto on the 9th. Its been about 8 months since my last tournament at the UoT open...and what a difference! I made it to my court finals, which was a first for me.

Match one: Katate Men, Men misete Morote Kote
Match two: Men misete Morote Kote, Morote Men
Match three: Katate Sayu Men (Encho, 15 minutes)
Match four: Lost to a hiki sayu men in Encho (10 minutes).

I was very pleased with my performance, and had a great time. Maybe it was just more confidence in using Jodan, or maybe the planets were just akigned properly...who knows?

I also managed to get some very helpful comments from a few Sensei (Ohmi and Raymond Sensei for those of you who know them), as well as some more reading material on Jodan.

Anyway, I owe everyone on this site a big thanks for all your comments and the discussions we've had regarding Jodan. Thanks everyone!

Steve.

[Eldritch Knight]

how scary? :paranoid:


Scary... very scary. And I'm told that I'm scary. These women don't just attack fearlessly, but since they're in joudan, they attack ferociously. After doing 20 minute of jigeiko with one of them, I think I know how female lions act.

[hyouriittai]

In nito, is it typical that the player, regardless the hand, will hold the daito shinai at the very end of the tsuka? I'm just wondering, because I've seen such in most video of shiai that includes a nito player.

[Old Warrior]

In nito, is it typical that the player, regardless the hand, will hold the daito shinai at the very end of the tsuka? I'm just wondering, because I've seen such in most video of shinai that includes a nito player.

In my relatively inexperienced opinion, it is a matter of two elements - distance and technique.

One of the advantages to nito is that you can reach an opponent before he can cut you, providing you initiate the attack first. Clearly, at distance, you want to hold the shinai at the end.

Now, if you find yourself, fist to fist, I let gravity allow my hand to drift up to the tsuba. This way I have more contol over the shinai, can move it faster, and don't have to back away so far to hit a target. As I move away and get back to distance, I again grasp the shinai at the very end.

[Steve]

I'll relay to you what a Sensei from Japan told me.

The grip on the daito is a dynamic thing. When at proper maai, the grip should be low on the tsuka to maximize striking distance and speed of the shinai swing.

But, during tsubazeriai, the grip is usually adjusted (by letting the shinai drop down in your grip) to make the inclose manouvering more easy.

Once the kendoka are separated again, the nito kendoka lowers the daito to chudan and presses the tsuka against their do, bringing their grip back down to the bottom of the shinai. They the re-assume the standard nito kamae.

[hyouriittai]

In my relatively inexperienced opinion, it is a matter of two elements - distance and technique.

One of the advantages to nito is that you can reach an opponent before he can cut you, providing you initiate the attack first. Clearly, at distance, you want to hold the shinai at the end.

Now, if you find yourself, fist to fist, I let gravity allow my hand to drift up to the tsuba. This way I have more contol over the shinai, can move it faster, and don't have to back away so far to hit a target. As I move away and get back to distance, I again grasp the shinai at the very end.

That's really interesting. I was only able to read posts when I first signed up for the KW forums, and I found it fascinating that you fenced nito exclusively. I've never really considered changing from itto (of course, I'm still a very inexperienced kendoka) but in our dojo, we train with weapons of varying maai (daito, shoto, naginata), so I've had some exposure to nito (most of my chances to try it out were spent taking a beating from my sensei.) Nito seems like something I'd like to consider adding to my jigeiko in the future.

[Shiro]

I may be wrong but I think jodan is not a style on it's own, it's just another way of holding the shinai. Very offensive, but imho very poor defense.

[mystic_kendoka]

anybody watch the anime 'one piece'? theres a guy doing santo there...

[moocow65]

roronoa zoro...... he does santo-ryu. i think the only waza he uses that would possibly be effective in kendo would be his tora-gari.
personally, right now i'm trying to perfect my nito midare-giri. this is where i strike my opponent 5-8 times consecutively with my daito at issoku itto no mai. it's actually pretty fun hitting the right men, kote, left men, right men, kote, and finally a shomen men on an opponent who doesn't know what the hell to do. i frankly got frustrated when people would just try to hit me all over the place when they're doing seigan, so now i can do it right back at them. this is more of a set-up waza than a point scoring waza. it's really tiring tho.

[mystic_kendoka]

do you know why all the swords in "one piece" are black bladed?

[Inouye02]

Moocow, Our favorite hachidan senseis waza's in Nito ? looked pretty impressive last night. Honda was like "wow" afterwards...

[m_french]

this is where i strike my opponent 5-8 times consecutively with my daito at issoku itto no mai. it's actually pretty fun hitting the right men, kote, left men, right men, kote, and finally a shomen men on an opponent who doesn't know what the hell to do.
Having been on the wrong side of this display (last night to be exact) all I can say is damn......that was fast. And the sad part is I think you took pitty on me and only were going half speed. :beard:

[misterkurukuru]

was there keiko at chuo yesterday??? man i need to go to my dojo more! gahaha well i feel asleep after i came home from school (Darn winter quater starting so soon). Ahh well i have seen moocows move and its pretty darn fast. If he did it to me i think i would roll around on the floor till he stoped or simply run away for a while. I maybe kurukuru, but i am not crazy.

[dorkusxmaximus]

I want to see it too, moocow ^_^.

[KhawMengLee]

:eek:
roronoa zoro...... he does santo-ryu. i think the only waza he uses that would possibly be effective in kendo would be his tora-gari.
personally, right now i'm trying to perfect my nito midare-giri. this is where i strike my opponent 5-8 times consecutively with my daito at issoku itto no mai. it's actually pretty fun hitting the right men, kote, left men, right men, kote, and finally a shomen men on an opponent who doesn't know what the hell to do. i frankly got frustrated when people would just try to hit me all over the place when they're doing seigan, so now i can do it right back at them. this is more of a set-up waza than a point scoring waza. it's really tiring tho.


:eek: And here I have enuff trouble trying to do kote-men with just the daito...the kote men using daito first and then shoto for men is fun tho...pity it cant score.

[Inouye02]

Hey Dorkus, glad to see your still among the living , where you been ?

Yup kurukuru, there was keiko, not a whole lot came tho ..

[dorkusxmaximus]

I went into hibernation from kendo for a while =P. What's up, homie? Still no luck on the video, Inouye. I emailed someone yesterday, but didn't get a response. I'm going to check again in 2 weeks.

[moocow65]

alright, one more month left till the steveston tournament. wonder how many nito kenshi will be at this tournament? there was a handful of them at the PNKF taikai. it's always fun to watch other nito kenshi. not many kenshi inouye and i can compare ourselves too. puts our skills in perspective.
hahahah and yes, i am utilizing the infamous hachi-waza. i just can't guarantee the last strike to be an ippon like the hachi-waza.

[Inouye02]

Hey Moocow, tried out a couple of your waza's tonight at keiko, "the waterfall" and the "come at me waza", they worked out good, gotta try the Nakauchi Sensei waza next,

see you at Steveston..

[misterkurukuru]

you best use super slide, otherwise hachi waza wont work!

[dorkusxmaximus]

I just got a response this morning ^_^. that person will get back to me soon. give it 2 weeks.

[DanielH]

Last night during class I watched a guy doing some nito-ryu (during our breaks). It looked very interesting, but I'm a little confused.
The majority of the time I've seen it the person was holding the shoto (?) in their right hands and the daito (?) in their left but I have seen two or three videos where it was the other way around. Is this up to what the person prefers (right/left handed); did they learn it incorrectly, what?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Either way is fine, but daito in the left hand (gyaku-nito) is more common because it allows an easier attack to the opponent's kote. As far as I understand these things anyways.

Heard about all the nito guys in Seattle - lots of lumber flying around, only a couple of guys any good. Sounds like a disturbing trend - can't cut it in chudan? Just do nito! Everything in kendo should be so easy.

[Hai_hai]

I do not believe that this thread is still going.
Jodan and nito are a joke.

Hasso no kamae is the only way to go unless you have no balls and prefer to do chudan no kamae.

[DanielH]

I don't think you had to say it like that but... No need to be rude just because some people think differently. (I did this recently: Sorry)

I disagree... the reason that people do jodan/nito-ryu is because it probably has some advantages... If someone uses a shoto/daito they have the advantage of stoping your attacks AND being able to attack at the same time. From what I've seen its a little hard to do that with one shinai. GTG, class is over but I hope you got my point.

[ALI G]

Hasso no kamae is the only way to go unless you have no balls and prefer to do chudan no kamae. So youz muzt uze Chudan den?

Oh waitz.......

You quittedz....so youz can uze a new kamaez dat I madez 4 yaz........itz called da quittaz kamaez.......

Juzt makez a O wid youz armz abuv yo headz & holdz da shinai in yo teeth wid da kensakiz facingz to youz rightz....dat wayz...youz making the letterz Q which iz 4 da Kendoz Quittaz!!!!!

[moocow65]

Hey Moocow, tried out a couple of your waza's tonight at keiko, "the waterfall" and the "come at me waza", they worked out good, gotta try the Nakauchi Sensei waza next,

see you at Steveston..

hey inoue try doing my "iai-do" kamae. it's the one where i wrap my shoto around my do, and then from there i do my iai-waza such as the "rainbow-iai or harakiri-iai. personally, i like the rainbow-iai the best because i can get in close without my opponents realizing it, because they are awed by the "rainbow." this kamae, can only be used effectively using the "SUPER SLIDE." for opponents who like to back up alot, you must use the "INFINITE SLIDE" technique. hahah can't wait to use my full range of kamae at the steveston tournament in february.

[KhawMengLee]

hey inoue try doing my "iai-do" kamae. it's the one where i wrap my shoto around my do, and then from there i do my iai-waza such as the "rainbow-iai or harakiri-iai. personally, i like the rainbow-iai the best because i can get in close without my opponents realizing it, because they are awed by the "rainbow." this kamae, can only be used effectively using the "SUPER SLIDE." for opponents who like to back up alot, you must use the "INFINITE SLIDE" technique. hahah can't wait to use my full range of kamae at the steveston tournament in february.


What are this waza? Please explain....:) I need to expand my nito skills...

[Inouye02]

Moocow, I'll try it , but left handed draw seems awkward, but maybe they might get confused just as much as me , hahaha, but we'll see ...

Peace

[moocow65]

What are this waza? Please explain....:) I need to expand my nito skills...
hahahah, they're kinda hard to describe. hmm.. maybe i'll make a video of all my kamae. yeah... you would have to come over to my dojo, for me to show you these kamae. it takes alot of explaining and demonstrating to do. one thing for sure, is that they are pretty effective.
hey inoue, tried out my midare-uchi tonight at chuo dojo. so tiring..... but it's getting better. you know, i think i can perform the midare-uchi a la the hachi waza. i think i might be able to do the hachi waza and guarantee the last hit to be an ippon. i kinda experimented with it tonight. hahah we'll see....... maybe at steveston we'll see it work??????

[Hai_hai]

hey inoue try doing my "iai-do" kamae. it's the one where i wrap my shoto around my do, and then from there i do my iai-waza such as the "rainbow-iai or harakiri-iai. personally, i like the rainbow-iai the best because i can get in close without my opponents realizing it, because they are awed by the "rainbow." this kamae, can only be used effectively using the "SUPER SLIDE." for opponents who like to back up alot, you must use the "INFINITE SLIDE" technique. hahah can't wait to use my full range of kamae at the steveston tournament in february.

Is this bogus or are you just renaming existing moves?

[m_french]

Is this bogus or are you just renaming existing moves?
Definitely not bogus M_Cow was slicing up Honda's shinai like a ginsu last night :beard:

[moocow65]

Is this bogus or are you just renaming existing moves?
Hai_Hai, you're more than welcome to come to Southern California and practice with Tenken, Tenken's Bro, Kurukuru, and myself at Covina Kendo Dojo. We'll all show you our signature moves during keiko.

[Hai_hai]

Hai_Hai, you're more than welcome to come to Southern California and practice with Tenken, Tenken's Bro, Kurukuru, and myself at Covina Kendo Dojo. We'll all show you our signature moves during keiko.


Oh, thanks for the offer. I am not able to go to California.

[moocow65]

hey inoue... i'm gonna see if i can go to venice dojo next weds or sometime soon. i'm working on my "SUPER-SLIDE PLUS" seme technique. just think of it as the regular SUPER-SLIDE, but there are mini fumikomi in between each SUPER-SLIDE. i get some decent seme out of this. gonna try it out on saturday at tustin.

[Inouye02]

hey inoue... i'm gonna see if i can go to venice dojo next weds or sometime soon. i'm working on my "SUPER-SLIDE PLUS" seme technique. just think of it as the regular SUPER-SLIDE, but there are mini fumikomi in between each SUPER-SLIDE. i get some decent seme out of this. gonna try it out on saturday at tustin.

sounds good, your more then welcome , plus on the 28th is the mini shiai Yoshida Sensei wants to start up every month , youth & open class.

youth (17 and under, kyu only)
open ( adult kyu and yudansha 15 & up)

[Hai_hai]

I will work on my East Coast waza and name each form... and thus, I will bust your a$$ in three.

[heri0n]

moocow and tenken do you ever miss playing chudan?

[Kendo-Militia]

sounds good, your more then welcome , plus on the 28th is the mini shiai Yoshida Sensei wants to start up every month , youth & open class.

youth (17 and under, kyu only)
open ( adult kyu and yudansha 15 & up)
Ah Yea maybe I will come for this tournament.

[moocow65]

moocow and tenken do you ever miss playing chudan?
HEEELLLLLLLL NO!!!! Nito has probably been the best decision I ever made in kendo. With chudan, I came in 12th place for the US Men's Team back in 1999. Granted I was only 17 back then, but still I was very disappointed that I didn't make the team. In February of 2001 I started nito. I knew that I had to train hard if I was gonna make it on the US Men's Team this time around. The first round of eliminations was September of that same year. At the final eliminations I placed 9th and was picked as an alternate for the US Team. With some luck and a hell of alot of determination, I was able to persuade my coach, through my hard work, to place me on the team. In Scotland, I managed to tie my Korean adversary, and we took third. So nito has done more for me in three years, than chudan has for 12 years. Plus, nito is so fun cause there are so many options. With chudan you only have the chudan kamae BUT with nito, well in my case, I have the "matrix," "kani," "samidare," "house of pain," "en gaurde," "iai," and "crouching tiger, hidden dragon," kamae, and am working on other kamae as well. Also, one of my main problems in kendo was that my fumikomi did not have a long range, so I would always come up short. With nito, I have a longer reach, so I don't have to do a long range fumikomi. I can just stomp in the same spot just like how Chiba Sensei does with his Jodan. And since I am able to do katate renzoku waza, there is really nothing I can't do with nito that I can do with chudan. So nopes, I don't miss chudan one bit. I'm sure Tenken feels the same way.

[neo_dragon_kai]

moooocow, what's your real name? (just curious cuz i really want to see you fight my sensai (matthew raymond)) come to UofT in march!!! lol.

damn, that'd be sooo much fun to watch, nito vs nito!!

anyways, i am seriously considering doing jodan but i am but a lowly 1-que :|

3 reasons:
1, i used to watch a cartoon where the main guy does jodan, and that's the only thing i remember about that show. it's an old kendo anime. (any one know what's the name of that? i know it's sorta a long shot but just in case... )
2, i just love to be different
3, i tried jodan in one of my practice for a brief moment a couple weeks ago. it wasn't a normal jodan cuz i was using chudan footwork (basically the same as kata #1). but in that brief moment i scored the best men-point i've scored in my short 1.5 yrs of kendo. it just felt soooooo good. the other guy just stood there and didn't do anything. probably just my luck but my mind was set on this ever after that moment.

anyways, matthew told me that i should wait till next yr when i'm shodan, but i could just conciously try to mix up the footwork a bit to practice the left foot leading movements. i did today a little bit and damn it's hard. i think i had easier time learning kendo as a beginer :O

any jodan kendokas wanna give me some pointers as how to prepare for it?

[misterkurukuru]

take a look at USA vs Canada and you can see both moocow and your sensei fight, but its not with eachother. i have actually practiced with moocow and raymond sensei... They do diffent styles of nito, but moocow is a lot better then he was at worlds. He can hit about 4-5 times in a row with his daito and during worlds he could only hit once. come to so cal or go to the steveston tournament if you wanna take a gander at moocow.

[Old Warrior]

Yesterday was a big promotion examination at our school. Four people were going for shodan and there had to be 30 others going for one kyu rank or another. After the testing there was a practice where I was the only non black belt attending and the only nito person (I'm the only one in the school).

It is not my imagination. Everyone wanted a piece of me. For whatever reason, the curiosity of dealing with the two swords (even in my relatively unskilled hands) made me a popular guy. Of course, this morning my, old shoulders are quite sore, but they are soothed by the memories of a terrific practice. And while I am hardly worthy of carrying the bogu bags of those whom I fought, I got a few points, that I am still savoring.

Each person I fought had a different plan on how to do me in. I can see which ones are the most effective. I also have concluded that to do nito, you must be in much better shape than I. When the daito starts to feel really heavy and you are having trouble keeping it well positioned over the men - you're finished. Everyone I faced fought me until I was a puddle and couldn't hold my hands up. I would then sit down for a breather and one of the shodans would come over and say "Master ---- would like to spar with you". I couldn't say no, but I was never recovered enough to give the kind of accounting I would have preferred. But, it was a great day for my kendo journey!

[KhawMengLee]

Heheh...I wish they had the same enthusiasm here...The only people I get willing to spar with me when I do nito are the 5th dan above Sensei and they kill me goooood...the shodans shy away and I have to corner the bastards and drag them in to fight.

Still...if it don't kill ya dead it only makes you stronger.

Woohooo...shodan grading in 14 days!!! don't think I'll be doing nito there tho:P

[moocow65]

Hahahah... that's one of the things that come with doing nito, Old Warrior. Everyone wants to have a piece of you. I remember last year, there was this goodwill team tournament with Aoyama College from Japan. Out of the 15 or 16 of us Americans (well some of us were actually Japanese citizens), I was the only one who won, but a few others should have won as well. Well, after the tournament, the whole damn school wanted to practice with me. Over an hour of keiko with college kenshi.... with no breaks. Pretty tiring. I put most of them in their place tho. Hahahah. Gotta defend my country even if it's only in kendo right? It can get kinda annoying tho. I was at this all hachi-dan sensei keiko in Japan, and my "Super Shishou" Toda Tadao Sensei was there. I HAD to practice with him. Well, while I was looking for him through the 30 or so sensei, they kept on dragging me over to practice with them!!! I finally got around to Toda sensei tho.

[Inouye02]

[QUOTE=moocow65]Hahahah... that's one of the things that come with doing nito, Old Warrior. Everyone wants to have a piece of you.

i was at norwalk last friday, after doing keiko with Shoraku sensei from Costa Mesa Dojo, i was resting when Kato Sensei came waving his hand at me , Inouye San , lets keiko , well after about 15 minutes , i got a men stike in only to see my daito splinter right down the middle , so i have a rain check with him ..anyways you do notice other kenshi looking, wanting to keiko but hesitate, and you get asked a lot of questions, how do you defend against nito , dont your arms get tired , i just smile and say , if you meet Itokazu he can answer your questions , sorry Hide, if you get a lot of questions some day ...

[moocow65]

phew.... now that the steveston tournament is over, i can finally cut down on all the speed and strength training and start working on more signature moves. hey inouye, i'm thinking about this new move that i call the "kazaguruma men" i'm gonna do a trial test on its effectiveness tomorrow at practice, and if it passes then i'll perfect it and show it to you. how are all the other nito people doing on this forum?

[KhawMengLee]

Going good...need to build more stamina on the ole' left arm. Haven't quite got to the stage where signature moves get developed...all basics here baby!

Still...having fun with the shoto...especially doing gyakudou cuts with it to rattle the opponent, thus setting them up for a hiki waza.

Yeah, everyone wants to try out the nito guy...even if he's just a beginner...I can hold of most ppl at my level but jesus is it a struggle against my Senseis.

[hyouriittai]

phew.... now that the steveston tournament is over, i can finally cut down on all the speed and strength training and start working on more signature moves. hey inouye, i'm thinking about this new move that i call the "kazaguruma men" i'm gonna do a trial test on its effectiveness tomorrow at practice, and if it passes then i'll perfect it and show it to you. how are all the other nito people doing on this forum?

I didn't go up to Steveston, as I'm not even in bogu yet. However, did you happen to see, or even play with any Obukan Dojo kenshi from Oregon, USA?

[Andoru]

Is your height a relevant factor in considering whether nito and/or jodan is suitable or not? I'm 165cm only :(

[Inouye02]

phew.... now that the steveston tournament is over, i can finally cut down on all the speed and strength training and start working on more signature moves. hey inouye, i'm thinking about this new move that i call the "kazaguruma men" i'm gonna do a trial test on its effectiveness tomorrow at practice, and if it passes then i'll perfect it and show it to you. how are all the other nito people doing on this forum?

that would be good Hide, maybe if i ever meet King Kong again i could try it , we watched the video last night , man that guy was like 2ft over me , but everyone got a good laugh of seeing me hit the table ..hahaha see you soon

and yeah everyone wants a piece of the nito player..except they dont want no moocow ...

[moocow65]

No, I didn't go against any Obukan people. I was disappointed that I didn't get to see Wayne Abe. Do you know why he didn't come?
On a separate note..... Being tall does give you an advantage if you do nito or jodan, but with every other sport, it's gonna be your skill that will set you apart from the rest.

[Rivanog]

hurray!!!...i finally ask my sensei if i could do nito and....(drums) he said "yes"...well i guess i´ll just practice at home for now (maybe three months or more) until i have my arms strong enough....well could some of the experienced nito kenshis out there tell me some exercises i could do....well my sensei told me to do a lot of suburi(at least 250) with a suburito (especially katate) every day and to hold my daito over my head for a long time to get acostumed to the new kamae....oh and moocow i´ve seen some of yours videos and...damn you´re good...how many times do you practice a week (i hope i can go some day to covina to do some keiko with you sometime)

[Rivanog]

No, I didn't go against any Obukan people. I was disappointed that I didn't get to see Wayne Abe. Do you know why he didn't come?
On a separate note..... Being tall does give you an advantage if you do nito or jodan, but with every other sport, it's gonna be your skill that will set you apart from the rest.


mmm...i wonder if being left-handed will help too....i hope it does cuz i am....

[KhawMengLee]

mmm...i wonder if being left-handed will help too....i hope it does cuz i am....

Heheh...it does a bit(I'm a leftie too). My limited advice is to train doing lots of katate suburi at home with a 37, 38, 39 or a suburito to build arm strength. Then in jigeiko or kihon waza use a 36 or 37. I find that I got more control(ten uchi) this way...maybe after 6 more months I'll use the 37 fully.

But then again my Nito Sensei said it should every nito kendoka's goal to be able to use the daito and shoto in both hands.

[Rivanog]

thanks for the advise KhawMengLee...doing lots of katate suburi with a suburito is pretty hard...guess i´ll have to train a lot more...


But then again my Nito Sensei said it should every nito kendoka's goal to be able to use the daito and shoto in both hands.

wow....to be able to do that will be pretty dificult...

[Inouye02]

Park Sensei here in So Cal is equally good with either hand, but when he uses his left hand, he has a good hiki kote ..

[m_french]

...having fun with the shoto....
Are you sure this is something you want to admit publicly?????????? :beard:

[DCPan]

No, I didn't go against any Obukan people. I was disappointed that I didn't get to see Wayne Abe. Do you know why he didn't come?
On a separate note..... Being tall does give you an advantage if you do nito or jodan, but with every other sport, it's gonna be your skill that will set you apart from the rest.

Hey Moocow,

Wayne moved away from Oregon. I think he's at Colorado now.

Did you see the photos that I gave Tenken's brother @ Steveston? They were photos from PNKF 2003....I was only there for the last 5 minutes, passing through on my way back from Vancouver with my wife....

I heard you took out Kazushi?

:D

[DCPan]

[QUOTE=moocow65]i got a men stike in only to see my daito splinter right down the middle

I've always wondered why Hasegawa don't make a Nito-Ryu carbon shinai set?

I know you can get the 37...but the shoto?

Would you want to use a carbon though? :D

[DCPan]

[QUOTE=neo_dragon_kai]1, i used to watch a cartoon where the main guy does jodan, and that's the only thing i remember about that show. it's an old kendo anime. (any one know what's the name of that? i know it's sorta a long shot but just in case... )
QUOTE]

Musashi no Ken by Murakami Motoka

[DCPan]

Plus, nito is so fun cause there are so many options. With chudan you only have the chudan kamae BUT with nito, well in my case, I have the "matrix," "kani," "samidare," "house of pain," "en gaurde," "iai," and "crouching tiger, hidden dragon," kamae, and am working on other kamae as well.

Hey Moocow,

What do you think of this book?

http://www.e-bogu.com/nitoryu.html

The author's teacher was Arazaki Nitosai who wrote "Nito-Ryu no Narai Kata".

What are your inspirations for kamae? Borrow anything from Niten-Ichi Ryu?

:D

[dorkusxmaximus]

Omg, i forgot to ask Moocow to show me the "Crouching tiger, Hidden dragon" kamae!!! NOooOOOO =O. Even forgot "Matrix" T_T. Dabnabit, I have to wait another year to see it LOL.

[moocow65]

Hey Moocow,

Wayne moved away from Oregon. I think he's at Colorado now.

Did you see the photos that I gave Tenken's brother @ Steveston? They were photos from PNKF 2003....I was only there for the last 5 minutes, passing through on my way back from Vancouver with my wife....

I heard you took out Kazushi?

:D

Hey, yeah I heard you stopped by Steveston. Too bad I didn't get a chance to see you. Yeah, that final match with him was tough. I was lucky that my Sayonara Do went in. Yeah, I saw those photos too. Thanks. They look great. So Wayne's in Colorado huh? Hey, I think I had some photo copied pages of that book. I made up all of my kamae, and was pretty surprised that I saw a couple of them in the book. Hahahah.

Hey, Nancy, maybe I'll post up pictures of all my kamae on my homepage or something so you won't have to wait a year. I'm still thinking about just visiting next year and not competing. I'll definitely be at Steveston next year tho.

[DCPan]

Hey, yeah I heard you stopped by Steveston. Too bad I didn't get a chance to see you. Yeah, that final match with him was tough. I was lucky that my Sayonara Do went in. Yeah, I saw those photos too. Thanks. They look great. So Wayne's in Colorado huh? Hey, I think I had some photo copied pages of that book. I made up all of my kamae, and was pretty surprised that I saw a couple of them in the book. Hahahah.

Hey, Nancy, maybe I'll post up pictures of all my kamae on my homepage or something so you won't have to wait a year. I'm still thinking about just visiting next year and not competing. I'll definitely be at Steveston next year tho.

Hey Moocow,

I'll get to watch your match sometime...one of my friends taped it on dv....

You have a homepage?

I'll be at Steveston next year...why does it have to be on Valentine's weekend? (*sigh*)...no amount of waza will save me from my wife's wrath if she has to sit on the bench and watch my shiai on Valentine's Day :D

One of the most interesting points made in that book I posted above is that the author criticizes modern nito as "katate jodan" plus "kodachi" waza instead of "real nito". A typical sample is the "taiko" theory where when one sword is in upswing, the other is in downswing covering the opening....In "their" style, both swords move in the same direction, as if itto...interesting huh?

:D

[JamesB]

Hello guys,


I ordered the Nito set with video form e-bogu last week. Can't wait for it to arrive !
Here in Belgium I have seen but one nito kendoka, so I guess I'll be practicing on my own a lot.

greetz to all,

James

[Musha]

Hi JamesB,
Come to Manchester England, I started learning Nito from a book in January. Need some one to practice with!!! :D

[moocow65]

Hi JamesB,
Come to Manchester England, I started learning Nito from a book in January. Need some one to practice with!!! :D
Hahah you don't need anyone to practice with. All you need are two bokken and a tire, and your're set. Worked for me. But on a serious note, make sure you're strong enough to hold two shinai, and really get the basics down before you do ANYTHING else, or you'll look like sh*t like so many wannabe nito kenshi out there.

[Musha]

Hi moocow,

You seem to be the aurphorety on Nito around here so thanks for your reply :D. I thought of trying to find some old Bougu from E-bay and make some type of dumy but not have much money right now.

I have been doing Suburi with a home made Shoto and normal Daito that is a bit of a mistake :(. But it does not seem to hard using two it is just strange doing Suburi because in Ittou kendo you swing up move forwards cut Shoumen. In Nito you already have the Daito up so you are just moving forwards..
Also at first my hands and wrists were really hearting, I got a big blister on the pad under my index finger but now nothing at all :D. And I also feel like I could fight quite well with my left hand too.
If my Sensei will let me do another Nito Jigeiko I will try Daito in left hand this time...

And I wonder how I actually looked doing Nito. Gmason would know :d. Probably really stupid :).

[JamesB]

Hi JamesB,
Come to Manchester England, I started learning Nito from a book in January. Need some one to practice with!!! :D
Thanks for the offer Musha :smiley:

Maybe I'll see you sometime at Mumeishi 3's Tournament in London.

I hope I will be ready to do nitto then...

[Musha]

Moocow sounded like he practised alone but I think if I were to think about entering competitions I would have to work out some way of practising every week...

You said that you were just working from a Video? and with two Shinai?
I don't have a Daito yet but I have two Niten ichi ryu bokken a Shoto and a book.
From my experience learning Japanese I found that, the Internet videos and tapes weren’t all that good. When learning Japanese you can read things over and over and look at the book for things you forgot :D.
I would not like to be standing in front of a TV and trying to copy Nito techniques :D.

Any way don't ask me.. :wink:

[JamesB]

Got my order from e-bogu this weekend !

I watched the video immediately. Quite impressing, but isn't he (Matthew Raymond) one of the better (best) Nito kendoka in the world ?

I will start Nito this week alone, I will not use it (yet) at my regular club.
I want to pass Shodan first, which should be around november this year.

greetz,

J.

[dorkusxmaximus]

I guess you haven't seen Moocow in action yet, JamesB. I say Moocow is better.

[JamesB]

No I haven't seen Moocow in action yet.
Aren't there some videoclips on the net available ? I sure would like to see them...

[Inouye02]

No I haven't seen Moocow in action yet.
Aren't there some videoclips on the net available ? I sure would like to see them...

look at the korea vs usa

[Inouye02]

[QUOTE=JamesB]Got my order from e-bogu this weekend !

I watched the video immediately. Quite impressing, but isn't he (Matthew Raymond) one of the better (best) Nito kendoka in the world ?[QUOTE

here in so cal, we have nakauchi sensei, park sensei, and moocow ...

[Inouye02]

actually James B , send me your address and i will try to send all of moocows fights i have on video..including his "sayonara do" clip

[sminki]

actually James B , send me your address and i will try to send all of moocows fights i have on video..including his "sayonara do" clip

I don't know if team Korea vs. U.S. in the last WKC was such a good example of Moocow in action. I admit that it's the only clip that I've seen of Moocow so my opinion may be on limited grounds, but Kim Young Kyu seemed to have done as well as he could to "neutralize" nito. I'm quite sure there are more impressive footages of Moocow (which I'd also love to see)...

I did see clips of Raymond from 11th WKC, my opinion is that Moocow uses more "controlled" nito...

[Inouye02]

I don't know if team Korea vs. U.S. in the last WKC was such a good example of Moocow in action. I admit that it's the only clip that I've seen of Moocow so my opinion may be on limited grounds, but Kim Young Kyu seemed to have done as well as he could to "neutralize" nito. I'm quite sure there are more impressive footages of Moocow (which I'd also love to see)...

I did see clips of Raymond from 11th WKC, my opinion is that Moocow uses more "controlled" nito...

his match against Mr tanaka from Bellevue was a great match...the sayonara do at the end was priceless, all i can say is that who ever has a copy of that, well hang on to it...

gee i better ask him first if it's ok , to let others see his action footage ..

[moocow65]

his match against Mr tanaka from Bellevue was a great match...the sayonara do at the end was priceless, all i can say is that who ever has a copy of that, well hang on to it...

gee i better ask him first if it's ok , to let others see his action footage ..
Nooooo!!! That is my patented signature move. People who wish to use that waza must first have my written consent to use it. Hahahah. But seriously, if Mr. Tanaka wasn't a Japanese citizen, he could very well make it on any national team without much trouble with the exception of Japan and Korea. To be able to beat kenshi of this caliber it is imperative that your arsenal of waza include do and tsuki. If all you can do are men and kote, it is highly unlikely you'll beat anyone who's world class. As far as that match with Mr. Kim goes, nito usually does the neutralizing because itto has much more offense than nito, and nito has much more defense than itto. Hahaha, I would have been more aggressive if the shinpan hadn't given me the hansoku for knocking HIS shinai out of his hands. Go figure. But I'm not the least bit bitter..... yeah right. Couldn't risk getting another hansoku so I had to play it safe and settle for the tie. But enough excuses. Sminki, maybe we'll get to do keiko someday so you can have a better opinion of my kendo. I still got alot of work to do. Oh and in my opinion, the best nito practitioner outside of Japan has to be my shisho, Nakauchi Sensei. He went to the world championships 5 times using itto, but his nito is devastating. Be careful of his TKO yoko men, and his hip-breaking yoko do. Just ask Inouye. It's also fun to do keiko with him when he uses his personal shinai that is about a foot longer than a 39 shinai!

[KhawMengLee]

actually James B , send me your address and i will try to send all of moocows fights i have on video..including his "sayonara do" clip

Could I have a copy too?....please:D :D :D

[Musha]

Some one should post a link, there is very little on the Internet about Nitou kendo :D.

Also one question, I’ve been practising nito at home for a wile and it acutely seems quite natural but gyaku nito still seems a little slow. Almost as if I only had a Shotou and the daito was just there for backup lol. My book is also like a Taiko style and you move your Shotou up when hitting kote at the same time the Daito goes down.

I wondered why more people seems to prefer Gyaku (Left hand Daito) to Shounito (Right hand with Daito). Gyaku seems to have kote more open and all the normal targets as normal kendo. Shounito you must hit gyaku (Left do) instead of right.

Mayber there is some advantage to being left handed but do in Gyaku nito is sough hard :(.

[takashijarosu]

i think i wrote on this befor i practice nito but i realy rather not, i was tould by 2 of my 4 sensei not to even bring this up again and another sensei said when you are 7 or 8 dan then it will be time to learn then you have to wait 4 more years to get the basics. mind you this was training in japan,very very rigid but loose, i do practice nito and learned it from one sensei only by recomendation from another sensei who knew i did 2 sword style europian fighting. he noticed i was more comfortable with two and said try it.
to my surprise japanses 2 style is very very diffrent and very strange. but i gathered the time to learn nito is when you are around 7-8 dan or are very very damn good at jodan but even then its rare and strangely i heard from many sensei its harder to learn nito and any whome use it are at a disadvantage and can be hit easly....??? that alone boggled me due to my prior training 2 vs 1 sword 2 usually win. one to block and pin up the opponent and the other to strike but yet bolth strike.
none the less you find a sensei he says shure ...do it may fit you . good luck

[sminki]

As far as that match with Mr. Kim goes, nito usually does the neutralizing because itto has much more offense than nito, and nito has much more defense than itto. Hahaha, I would have been more aggressive if the shinpan hadn't given me the hansoku for knocking HIS shinai out of his hands. Go figure. But I'm not the least bit bitter..... yeah right. Couldn't risk getting another hansoku so I had to play it safe and settle for the tie. But enough excuses. Sminki, maybe we'll get to do keiko someday so you can have a better opinion of my kendo.

Moocow,

I actually thought it was pretty funny that KYK's shinai got knocked out of his hand. I think he's a great kenshi, but I was still like "c'mon, you just got your shinai knocked out of your hand by a guy who's holding onto his by one hand???" (I assumed at first it was your shinai that got knocked loose) :ko: I can't believe the shinpan gave you the hansoku. In general, the team competition between Korea and U.S. was very physical and exciting.

I hope I didn't come across as not giving you enough credit for your kendo as that wasn't my intent at all. What I meant was that KYK probably had been up against nito kenshi less than a handful of times, if that, and did the best he could, despite his inexperience against nito. In any case, I'd love to do keiko sometime, but don't know if I'm up for that beating just yet, haha.

Still really curious as to what this "sayonara do" looks like...

[mystic_kendoka]

It's also fun to do keiko with him when he uses his personal shinai that is about a foot longer than a 39 shinai!

holy... S%*&


Still really curious as to what this "sayonara do" looks like...

curious about this too, could you describe it for us please?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I wondered why more people seems to prefer Gyaku (Left hand Daito) to Shounito (Right hand with Daito).
If the aite is in chudan, it's hard to hit kote from regular nito. Also, if you come into nito from a jodan background, you're used to using your left hand as your power hand and to delivering strikes single-handed with the left, so gyaku-nito is just a natural progression.

My understanding is that the difference between Matthew's nito and conventional nito is that he brings a lot of aggression to it. Conventional nito is more defensive than itto (as Moocow has already said): wait, block with the shoto, attack with the daito. Matthew is not like that...

[Musha]

Thanks for your reply Neil,

I have never really thought about Jyoudan and apart from people going into it in Jigeiko I have not seen it used effectively in a match. I should not really be thinking about Nito because I am not even graded :D but I think it is really interesting think to understand and when you can swing two Shinai itto is a little easier :). If I was a 4 dan like I should be I would have probably seen Nito and Jyoudan used in Taikai. I missed the WKC in Scotland that was a pain :(. I better try find a Jyodan video some where :D.

[dorkusxmaximus]

go watch some of Tenken's matches if you want some good jodan.

[Musha]

Know any links to videos? This Brazilian site has a wide range Ittou, Nito, Naginata.. but no Jyoudan :(.

http://www.amk.esp.br/kendo/kendoArquivos.asp

[DCPan]

My understanding is that the difference between Matthew's nito and conventional nito is that he brings a lot of aggression to it. Conventional nito is more defensive than itto (as Moocow has already said): wait, block with the shoto, attack with the daito. Matthew is not like that...

Isn't it because Matt Raymond also practice Kali Escrima or something like that?

I always thought the movement of his shoto was quite mesmorizing/distracting....

:D

[Neil Gendzwill]

Isn't it because Matt Raymond also practice Kali Escrima or something like that?

I haven't heard anything about any FMA he does, originally he was a kickboxer which is where he aquired a bunch of flexibility and strength.

As for his shoto - you've got to watch your distance, there's a tendancy to get sucked in too close, then he ties up your shinai with the shoto and all you can do is watch the daito come sailing in.

[DCPan]

THE IAIDO NEWSLETTER
Volume 8 number 8 #72 AUG 1996



#AN INTERVIEW WITH MATTHEW RAYMOND#
-----------------------------------

Matthew Raymond fought for Canada at the 1994 World Kendo
Championships in Paris. He lives in Toronto, Ontario and has a
civil engineering degree. Matthew is one of the few kendoka in
North America to use the Nito or two sword style. In July Matthew
became the Canadian Champion and earned a place on the Canadian
team for the World Championships in Kyoto in 1997. This is part
one of two of an interview conducted last year.

TIN: When did you start kendo Matthew?

MATTHEW RAYMOND: First year of university, Sept. 1988

TIN: Why did you start?

MR: In university I wanted to make sure I did something other
than just school work. We were also encouraged to involve
ourselves in some form of extra-curricular activities. Kendo was
something different, I'd seen some pictures of it, it looked
interesting and since university clubs are very cheap I figured
there was nothing to lose by trying.

TIN: What do you get out of your training?

MR: What I get from kendo and what it means to me is something
that seems to be continually changing or evolving. At first it
was just a chance to exercise and get away from school work.
Later, practice offered me a chance to focus my thoughts and
energy. As I practiced more I formed ties with other clubs in
the Toronto area and felt that I was part of the larger "kendo
community". Doing kendo gave me the opportunity to meet people
who made my trip to Japan possible, and thus allowed me to learn
about another culture. But most important, I found that as I
became more serious about kendo I was developing valuable
qualities in myself. Qualities such as dedication, humility,
patience, and a better sense of self.

TIN: any favourite tournament wins/placements you
want to tell us about?

MR: One win that that I have fond rememberances of (aside from
the WKC) was in the Ontario Senior Championship in 1990. It was
the last tournament that I played in as a mudansha (non-degree)
player. Before that I had done well at tournaments, usually
placing second or third, but I had never placed first in that
division. It was my last opportunity to get a gold as a
mudansha, and the gold I did get. To top it off that tournament
took place only a few days before my birthday, so the win was
like an early present to myself. The whole scenario might sound
silly, because it is, but it still brings a smile to my face when
I think about it.

TIN: Do you practice any other martial arts?

MR: In junior high school I studied karate and even did a bit of
kickboxing but did not stick with them much more than a year.

I started studying aikido at the same time that I started kendo.
Unfortunately, after my first year of University my engineering
class schedule conflicted with the aikido class times and aikido
had to go by the wayside. Aikido is also a very spiritual art
and is based largely on the movement of the sword. I am still
interested in aikido and hope to begin studying it again sometime
in the future.

While in university I also studied kali for a year. Kali is a
Philipino martial art comprised of unarmed techniques as well as
stick and knife fighting. In kendo one learns to use the body
and footwork to control fighting distances and generate power,
and stress is also placed on remaining calm and relaxed and using
the wrists to snap the shinai when trying to hit quickly. These
methods taught in kendo can be applied almost directly to kali.
People often asked me if doing kali helped my kendo, and I
suppose it did to some degree in terms of physical coordination
and angles of attacks, but I think kendo helped my kali more.
Kali was a lot of fun but I found the mentality to be more of a
combative one as opposed to a spiritual one. I don't mean that
as a bad thing however. I still drop in on my kali teacher on
occasion and take a class.

I have just recently begun studying muay thai (more commonly
known as thai boxing). My reasons for doing so are more for
physical conditioning, self-defense, and simply to satisfy my
curiosity about the art.

TIN: In kendo, you fight nito, this is quite
rare, especially in North America. How did you get
started using this style?

MR: After having practised kendo for three years I went to live
in Japan for one year. After six months in Japan of practising
at regular chudan I was introduced to nito-ryu almost by chance.
In Japan I practised kendo mainly at the University of Osaka
Prefecture. The head sensei at that university, Masayuki
Hamaguchi, suggested to me that I might enjoy learning about
another facet of kendo by doing nito-ryu. In the beginning I did
nito only occasionaly and only as a means of learning something
different about Japanese culture. However, I eventually began to
really enjoy doing nito and the frequency with which I did it
began to increase. When I finally returned to Canada I basically
practised nito-ryu all the time.

TIN: Where did you learn your skills?

MR: While in Japan I spent most of my time in and around Osaka
Prefecture. Aside from the University of Osaka Prefecture, two
other dojos come to my mind as important in my learning nito.
Those dojos were that of a local high school in Osaka City and
that at Chukyo University in Toyota City.

At the high school there was a sensei in his 70's by the name of
Hisami Yamamoto. Yamamoto Sensei fights using nito-ryu and he
was actually my first exposure to nito. Though he was older and
not able to hit very quickly, I actually felt a lot of strength
coming from him. I played him using chudan and though I could
pretty well handle him, I did get wacked over the head by him a
couple of times. I remember thinking to myself, "This old man
has a couple of really good moves and if he were any younger he
would probably just annihilate me." So taking some cues from him
I started building my nito.

A short while later I had the opportunity to practise at Chukyo
University, and one of the head sensei there helped me a great
deal. His name was Kenji Horiyama. Horiyama Sensei is a very
strong kendoka, strong enough to usually compete in the annual
All Japan Kendo Chamapionship. He usually uses chudan, but on
occasion practises nito. When I visited him he helped me a great
deal with committing to an attack, use of the shoto, and timing.

I also attended regular monthly practises with some of the higher
ranking sensei in Osaka. Among them was Kawakami Sensei, the
head of kendo at Japan's famous PL high school. PL is a school
of sports excellence where students are drafted by talent scouts
who travel all over Japan. PL turns out, on the whole, some of
the best kendoka in Japan.

It was through practising with this caliber of kendoka that I
began to develop my nito-ryu. Basically, my studies of nito-ryu
in Japan were spread out over a six month period.

TIN: It seems you've practiced with many
different sensei, have you had one you'd call a main influence?
Have these many different viewpoints helped or hindered
your learning and would you recommend seeking out many teachers?

MR: I have practised with many different sensei and I am
fortunate that I have gained different little bits from each of
them that have helped me better understand the whole. I say that
I am fortunate in that respect but perhaps I should say lucky.
Lucky because the various people could have easily given me
conflicting bits of advice.

In trying to think of who would have been a main influence two
people come to mind. Hamaguchi Sensei at the university I
practised at in Japan, and Kimura Sensei the 1994 Team Canada
Manager. Hamaguchi Sensei was able to see what I could do well
as far as nito goes and helped me develop some techniques, and
Kimura Sensei was instrumental in helping me refine those
techniques later.

In general I would not recommend seeking out many teachers.
Different sensei can be good at doing different techniques and it
is good to try to pick them up, but you cannot do so before you
have a good, strong foundation. With a good foundation you can
better understand what works, what doesn't and why. When trying
to build that foundation, however, it can be a hinderance if too
many people are telling you different things.

- - - truncated for length - - -

[nalogg]

moooocow, what's your real name? (just curious cuz i really want to see you fight my sensai (matthew raymond)) come to UofT in march!!! lol.
raymond sensei came to etobicoke for a practice a little while back and utterly amazed all of us non-bogu.

he's strong!

I both dread and look forward to the day when i'll face off with him.

[Steve]

Ah, RAymond Sensei is so great. He was here in Halifax leading a Kendo seminar for the third year in a row just a few months ago. I also go to Toronto a number of times a year for the various tournaments and such, and getting in some practice time at UoT with Raymond Sensei is always a must.

(Although one of these times i have to make a point of visiting Etobicoke!:) )

As he says in his interview above, many different sensei can teach you many different things. I have to say that Raymond Sensei has been one of the major sources for my Kendo improving. He's just a great teacher.

[radran]

hay

i just started kendo and i want to start nito after iv learnt the basics,

im learnin the basics at the moment and building up my streangth with exersizes, but i don't know of any nito players in my area (australia, nsw, sydney) unless someone knows of any?

as a result i was wondering is it possible to just buy the swords and try and learn it myself (with videos etc) with some help from my teacher (hes new to), or do i need a nito specific teacher? and is it too hard to learn by myself?
(no matter what ill probaly try anyway, but im just asking)

[bobdonny]

as a result i was wondering is it possible to just buy the swords and try and learn it myself (with videos etc) with some help from my teacher (hes new to),

Go to a dojo, there are lots of them, do not even attempt yourself.

[Steve]

Nito is has such difficult waza, not tot mention learning the subtleties of using two swords at once *efferctively* its just not something you can do on your own with videos etc... Unless you did about 1000 uchi komi a day. Even then, you would need a Sensei familiar with nito to correct you.

Even before all of that, many Sensei wold say not to even touch nito until you have Itto chudan well understood. That point usually comes at a minimum of 2nd-3rd Dan.

[Shavanni]

im learnin the basics at the moment and building up my streangth with exersizes, but i don't know of any nito players in my area (australia, nsw, sydney)

The Sydney Kendo club has a member who uses nito.
Training times can be found at http://www.sydneykendoclub.org/

From my limited knowledge, most people who use nito successfully are at least at a nidan or sandan level.

Perhaps others may correct me here but I would expect that one needs to be good at jodan before taking up the nito as to me one is an extension of the other.

[mashu19]

Hard. I'm still trying to get that stingin' type motion that I see most experienced jodan fighters perform, it's a muscular factor I think. Also the sync of left feet stamp with katate waza from jodam is difficult to attain, if possible.

Anyway, it's just a hobby for now. I'm sticking to chudan during renshu. i'm very interested in nitoryu also, that's why the questions. It seems that only the guys at e-bogu sell appropriate shoto shinai.


he he its funny that you say its hard to sync the left foot witha katate men, i find it the same with getting my right foot in sync wen playing chudan..lol

[Takashisuper]

Hi guys! I'm a nito user, I've seen many questions about nito so i can clear all your question ( i can try ^^ )

Like said by Toda sensei, a point with shoto is possible, generally tha points with shoto are those to the head or the tsuki. But is really hard obtain this points because you have to be almost perfect when striking, so all the points are made by the daito ^^.

Another answer, it's true that there aren't many sensei that teaches nito, but on the net there are a lot of manualsm books on nito, that explains moves, stances, footwork, and all the necessary to train and fight, especially in italy (where i live ^^).

Finally, nito is a really good style, and in my opinion, very fun. It's deadly as the itto if learned well, in fact i manage to win a good part of the duels in jigheiko, and if this wasn't enough i've tested my skills in several shiai with very good results.

Talking like this it seems that nito is the ultimate kendo style XD but it have some weaknesses, especially in short distances and ikki-men