English please...

[Badtz-Maru]

I was just having some thoughts and questions running throuh my head. I figured that this was the best place to post them.

Many of you are not Japanese. My parents are Japanese and I have never lived in Japan unless you consider summers as a kid at grandma and grandpa living there. If you have met me, you can tell that I am very American in the way that I act, dress and speak. If you have not, you can probably tell from the way I write. I am with a very American woman and my children will be completely raised in American culture.

Many of you who are not from Japan do Kendo and have an interest in Japanese culture and arts. I find that to be wonderful. I too began Kendo with these interests. Many of you also take the plunge and go to Japan for varying time periods. Some even take college classes and learn to speak it very well. I also think that is wonderful.

Here is my confusion. Often times, an American will travel to Japan for an extended period and come back. All of a sudden, they start to speak to me in Japanese. WTF? Yes, I can speak Japanese. Pretty well too since I work at a Japanese company and am pretty much the official AUSKF translator in the Northeast US. So I can play the role of good Japanese salaryman.

Not to be overly mean, but there are plenty of "real" Japanese to practice your conversational Japanese with. My Japanese is good, but not great. I need a lot more study. I don't have the tolerance to endure listening to Japanese that is far worse than mine. Am I being mean when I answer these people in English when they start babbling some incoherent Japanese to me?

I think that my Kendo accomplishments have proven that I am not an impatient and mean person. I run two dojos full of wonderful American Kenshi and I was the team coach of the MIDWEST Federation. I never teach in Japanese. All my practices and federation practices were conducted in 100% English. Sure, we use traditional Kendo terms, but we converse in English.

I can understand sometimes when a Japanese person starts speaking to me in excruciatingly bad English, but at least I can justify that by thinking that maybe they want to learn from me or think that my Japanese is hard to bear on them.

I am proud of my Japanese heritage. I am naming my unborn son a Japanese name so he remembers where his ancestors are from. I am also proud of my North American origin. I like speaking English. This is not a mystery if you have known me for a while. If you are from Japan, speak to me in Japanese or practice your Eikaiwa if you wish. I don't care. Dozo. I'm Nisei. I deserve it. However if you are a native English speaker... let's speak English. Listening to your Japanese is not something I deserve as a hard working Nisei.

I used to speak Greek at about a level that most wannabes can speak Japanese. I don't walk up to Greeks and start babbling in Greek unless invited to do so. And these are real Greeks. I really don't do it to a "Nisei" Greek.

In conclusion, here is my final and most likely to be most controversial thought. Over the years, I have noticed that those who do "push" their Japanese knowledge on me and to others aren't "known" names in the Kendo world. Simply put, they don't amount to much in Kendo. I think that this is because this reflects on their character. Lack of humility and lack of cultural knowledge (not just Japanese, but in general) translate to bad Kendo. If they think that their Japanese is good enough to unleash on victims like me, then how can they look at themselves critically enough in Kendo to improve? A lot oof the same people come back and think their Kendo is now better than everyone or think their rank is worth more if they got it in Japan. They sure learned a lot about Kendo.

Don't get me wrong now. I am not saying that if you have been to Japan and speak Japanese at a high level that you are a loser. No no no. I admire many of you for those tyes of efforts. I am focusing on those who push this fact on someone like myself who is a Nisei.

Sorry about this. This has bugged me for years and thought I'd share with some of you who just might understand or be equally confused. Since this is the Flames section and I haven't threatened anyone, I'm cool right? :) I'll stop my bitching and go back to being good ole Badtz-Maru.

[bobdonny]

Badtz, with the greatest of respect (and i do just know a little about you but I do have respect for you) I think you miss one key point.

I firmly believe that if someone has good intentions at heart you may discount any grievence you have with that person. If that is the case, I think your standpoint is a bit harsh and mean.

If on the other hand someone is just trying to be arrogant them in no uncertain terms tell them where to go.

I don't think you can paint everyone the same way, especially when it is well-intentioned, the other person may not know better.

[Curtis]

My personal favorite is the english speaker that speaks broken english in the dojo.

[ZealUK]

I generally default to the language that both participants in the conversation can use best. If it's equal then anything goes. For example my wife is Japanese and we always speak in English at home because her English is better than my Japanese. We tried speaking in Japanese for a bit, but we've become so used to using English that neither of us can do it.

If someone speaks to me in Japanese I'll respond in Japanese. If they use English I'll respond in English. That's common courtesy. The level of their language ability is kind of irrelevant, despite how annoying they might be. If they don't realise that there is a language gap and revert back to the strongest language, just humour them. I'm sure they will get it one day. Then again this could be an American thing. I notice you lot don't do humble very well generally.

Foreign people in Japan (non-Asian) get pestered all the time by people spat out of the JHS and SHS English education system. Speak to them in Japanese and they insist on bombarding you with broken English. I put up with it because I know they generally mean well, and just want to have a go at using English. I think that's humility. Putting your feelings aside for the benefit of someone else. Hopefully they can learn something from the encounter. You don't have to be rude to get the message across.

I don't know about people who think they are a bit special because they have trained in or lived in Japan. It does take a certain kind of person to get on here. There is a definate feeling of having 'done time' in Japan in the ex-pat community. I think that is warranted in a way.

You nisei lot have a hard deal. Japanese people get confused by you, and you get bugged by Japanophiles in your own country.

It does make me laugh though when you go a to a restaurant with an Asian westerner who can't speak Japanese and the staff totally blank all the white faces assuming they can't speak Japanese. When you do speak to them they continue to look at the asian lot assuming they're just playing dumb or something. I just laugh inside now when that happens.

[Josh Reyer]

Not to be overly mean, but there are plenty of "real" Japanese to practice your conversational Japanese with.

Really? I would think this would be your problem. I'd guess that the person coming back to Michigan from Japan would not have a great deal of opportunity to practice their Japanese, and thus would jump at the first "chance".

But I understand the complaint. One of the most annoying things when I was studying aikido here would be the people who would go through great lengths to try giving me advice in their stilted, broken English (e.g., "sho-daa, sho-daa"). While I certainly appreciate the effort, in as much as I'm fluent in Japanese, practice would go a lot easier and smoother for all involved if they just used it instead. Happily, where I currently practice everyone is very happy that I speak Japanese.

[Badtz-Maru]

My personal favorite is the english speaker that speaks broken english in the dojo.

That's awesome hahaha. I forgot about that. I heard that being called "Pigeon English." Is that a commonly used term or is that a Michigan thing?

[tad]

I kind of see where you're coming from Batz. I also end up feeling a bit embarassed for the person when people come at me with broken Japanese, but I usually try to say something like "that's pretty good!", give a fake smile and move on. (unless it's a really attractive girl in which case I might encourage them :p ) All in all, it's not as bad as people who come up and go "say something in Japanese!" which is a pet peeve of mine.

On the other hand, I do try to be a little tolorant, especially in kendo. There are a lot of people who joined kendo because they're into all things Japanese. There's really no getting around that.

What's interesting in Michigan (I just moved here) is that the dojo I just joined (Detroit) is predominantly Japanese...as in Japanese nationals who are here for work. I have no idea how anybody would get by in my new dojo without having some working knowledge of Japanese. It's not because people are trying to be exclusionary or mean, it's because a lot of the people are Japanese who work at the Japanese automotive companies around here and don't have a high comfort level with English. It's great for me because I don't have that many Japanese friends in MI outside of kendo, but it'd be tough for an English-only beginner IMO.

I really do see what you're talking about Batz because I have experienced it too. But I think we all need to give a little when it comes to kendo and language. My real pet peeve is kendo and anime-maniacs, but I've sort of given up on that.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's awesome hahaha. I forgot about that. I heard that being called "Pigeon English." Is that a commonly used term or is that a Michigan thing?It's actually called "pidgin English". Not sure the origin of the term. At any rate, I'm guilty of that when speaking to Japanese people with limited English. You have to slow it down and simplify to be understood, and before you notice it you're falling into the same speech rhythms as they have.

As far as the original question, I divide those people into two groups, one group that is just enthusiastic about Japanese and eager to practice with whoever, and the other that are just showing off. I understand getting ticked with the latter group, but I would hope you'd indulge the former.

[Curtis]

That's awesome hahaha. I forgot about that. I heard that being called "Pigeon English." Is that a commonly used term or is that a Michigan thing?

Pidgeon English is a different thing to me. What I am talking about is here, you are in a dojo and virtually everyone are english speakers and you have a person that normally speaks english just fine. All of a sudden they have an identity crisis.

I speak Japanese when I need to. I have one in my dojo that I have to use it with sometimes. Or when there is something funny that makes it appropriate. Anyway my Japanese has fallen on hard times. Use it or lose it.

[Curtis]

It's actually called "pidgin English". Not sure the origin of the term. At any rate, I'm guilty of that when speaking to Japanese people with limited English. You have to slow it down and simplify to be understood, and before you notice it you're falling into the same speech rhythms as they have.

...




I use it when absolutely necessary. My wife used it a lot on the farm with the trainees from Japan.

[verissimus]

That's awesome hahaha. I forgot about that. I heard that being called "Pigeon English." Is that a commonly used term or is that a Michigan thing?

You may be referring to Pidgin English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin).

There's this guy in my apartment building who I run into every now and then in the parking lot. He sees me (there are a lot of Indians in this area) and immediately starts conversing in broken Hindi, using the 10 words he knows. And even though I can't understand a word of what he's saying (because he's using the same 10 words, in no particular order, in an American accent), and even though I'd prefer to continue to converse in English (which I speak far better than my native tongue), I have to smile through politely. I guess he's just trying to be friendly.

[MikeW]

Badtz sensei, I think that it may revolve around these persons thinking you will be a good practice for them to speak Japanese with. I agree with you that it is out of place but I don't think they are purposely (in most cases at least) trying to be rude or an idiot. Think of it more as them trying to improve their language skills by using you as a language motodachi. If they don't know you then they may assume you prefer to speak japanese. If they do know you then perhaps they are just unaware of the impact of their actions. I doubt that most of them are trying to impress you with their knowledge or anything, most are probably glad to have a chance to practice their language skills here at home. If I were in your place I would probably just tell them 'I prefer to use English'. If that doesn't stop them them just chalk them up as an inconsiderate fool...lol.

[JoDuncan]

.... at least you don't have to out up with the Yanks (or the English) trying to speak 'Scottish'!
;)
I do smile back when I remember my friend from Colorado shouting to me, "Slater min!" with his American accent, hehe. Bril.

Don't be so mean on the people that want to learn.... I can relate to the newb to Japanese here.
(but then again, I wouldn't presume to do as the example from the OP)

[Kenzan]

I've read somewhere that when we write about our feelings in earnest, try as we may, even if we are obfuscating the truth to even ourselves, the heart of the matter appears to be quite plain if we know who to look.


I'll leave it to you to follow the pattern.



Many of you are not Japanese..




Many of you who are not from Japan do Kendo and have an interest in Japanese culture and arts.




I work at a Japanese company and am pretty much the official AUSKF translator in the Northeast US. So I can play the role of good Japanese salaryman.




Not to be overly mean, but there are plenty of "real" Japanese..




My Japanese is good, but not great...



I don't have the tolerance to endure listening to Japanese that is far worse than mine...




I think that my Kendo accomplishments have proven that I am not an impatient and mean person...



I never teach in Japanese...




at least I can justify that by thinking that maybe they want to learn from me or think that my Japanese is hard to bear on them...




I am proud of my Japanese heritage...




I'm Nisei. I deserve it...




Listening to your Japanese is not something I deserve as a hard working Nisei...



.. wannabes can speak Japanese.



Simply put, they don't amount to much in Kendo. I think that this is because this reflects on their character...



If they think that their Japanese is good enough to unleash on victims like me.



Don't get me wrong now. I am not saying that if you have been to Japan and speak Japanese at a high level that you are a loser. No no no. I admire many of you for those tyes of efforts.



Sorry about this. This has bugged me for years and thought I'd share with some of you who just might understand or be equally confused.




I find that to be wonderful. I too began Kendo with these interests. Many of you also take the plunge and go to Japan for varying time periods. Some even take college classes and learn to speak it very well. I also think that is wonderful.


Apparently, not so wonderful for you.

I wanted to treat this with respect as it appears that it is a very important issue for you.
So I leave out further details.
Shoot me a PM if I can help further.

[H.Sandsleth]

My personal favorite is the english speaker that speaks broken english in the dojo. A favorite of mine is the japanese instructor, who could speak and write norwegian very well, that filled my rank card with comments in japanese. Maybe it was intentional, and it says "idiot" or something...

[turboyoshi]

I firmly believe that if someone has good intentions at heart you may discount any grievence you have with that person.


I think this bears repeating. When I was younger, I was a very critical, judgmental person. When I started to give thought to the intentions that drove the actions, I became much more forgiving, of myself as well as others.
If you can't tell what the person's intentions are, like art, what we see is often just a reflection of ourselves.

sean

[kuzu70]

My personal favorite is the english speaker that speaks broken english in the dojo.

A good friend of mine is Korean and his English is not so great, so I speak to him in broken English, as if this will help me communicate with him.

[sirius1906]

A good friend of mine is Korean and his English is not so great, so I speak to him in broken English, as if this will help me communicate with him.

Same here. My ex was Korean and I found myself speaking broken Enlgish with what little Korean phrases I knew. Hey, if the goal is to communicate, draw stick figures (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7v50jh25j0)if you have to.

[Curtis]

A good friend of mine is Korean and his English is not so great, so I speak to him in broken English, as if this will help me communicate with him.

This is understandable. Why would you use broken english with a room full of english speakers?

My other favorite is beginning students that want to speak Japanese to me. Huh?????

[Zornocology]

this beef is a stark contrast to the language arguments here in eastern Canada haha.

[tango]

This whole thing kinda reminds me of my very whitebread, traditional Roman Catholic sister-in-law. She and her husband are in the process of adopting a second child from China. Her mother (my mother-in-law) is in the hospital for cancer treatment and one of her doctors is Chinese. So my sister-in-law, upon meeting this doctor just started blabbing, "Oh, we have a Chinese son. We love China and Chinese food. Y'know, I look at our son and sometimes I feel like I'm part-Chinese myself!"...

When I read Badtz-Maru's original post in this thread, that's what I gathered he was kinda getting at.

It's as if some American round-eye kenshi see a Japanese kenshi, and since they both do kendo and kendo is a "Japanese thing" then SOME American kenshi --- especially the Kill Bill, anime, and Last Samurai-types --- "sometimes feel like [they] are part-Japanese [themselves]!"

...and to prove this point, some of them have actually learned some of the language to maybe make themselves feel more Japanese.
Not talking about ALL American round-eyes, but just SOME. That's my impression anyway.

In a sense, I find that to be kinda insulting to the Japanese folks.
You can love Japan and love the Japanese people and love the Japanese culture. You can learn the Japanese language and you can do kendo. This doesn't make you Japanese, but SOME people maybe have a tendency to project that desire... to be more Japanese.

There's a very right way and, I think, a wrong way to project one's love for all things Japanese.
I'm guessing that Badtz-Maru has just had the misfortune of being exposed to too many of those going about it the wrong way.

[Fonsz]

Apparently, not so wonderful for you.

I wanted to treat this with respect as it appears that it is a very important issue for you.
So I leave out further details.
Shoot me a PM if I can help further.
I think our friend is onto something here. At the end of the day when push comes to shove you will always be a foreigner. Either in the US or in Japan. I have the same experience since I'm a second generation from Indonesia. My wife is as Dutch as it can be but my daughter is still regarded foreign because her Dad isn't 100% white. Especially where I live, which is a "Inaka" suburb, you can always feel it. Would be less in a big city I guess.

[Kenzan]

As they say, It's a Brave new world.

[jjcruiser]

Since I'm a white guy American and I don't speak (or attempt to speak) Japanese, I freely admit I don't grasp the issue from a personal standpoint. But are the unhappy people in this thread criticizing people who are enthusiastic about Kendo for wanting to learn and speak the Japanese language? Or are you saying that because you are by heritage Japanese you feel like there is a subtle racist component to other people trying to speak Japanese to you? I can totally understand the latter and regret it, although I doubt there's much condescension involved. As to the former, respectfully, I don't understand. If someone is studying an art as closely associated with a particular culture/country as Kendo is to Japan, I don't understand why instructors wouldn't want to encourage studying and practicing the language at the same time. I'm not in those instructor-shoes so I don't mean that critically and personally I don't have the time or inclination to study another language, but, humbly, I don't understand why you wouldn't be happy someone wanted to do that....

[whosesoever]

Many people often mistake humility and kindness for traits of weakness, when it is humility and kindness that allows one to taste the greatest happiness. When a person is not attached to any concept of self, he is able to dwell in happiness, for he is unmoved by the transient concepts of self. Therefore, it is important to be happy in the present moment, be gracious and kind in the present moment. A good action is good regardless of how it is received or initiated. It is the nourishment for the spiritual life. Nourish ourselves well.

[sirius1906]

...
It's as if some American round-eye kenshi see a Japanese kenshi, and since they both do kendo and kendo is a "Japanese thing" then SOME American kenshi --- especially the Kill Bill, anime, and Last Samurai-types --- "sometimes feel like [they] are part-Japanese [themselves]!"

...and to prove this point, some of them have actually learned some of the language to maybe make themselves feel more Japanese.
Not talking about ALL American round-eyes, but just SOME. That's my impression anyway.
...


Oh, I am so offended. I am one of those "Last Samurai-shiny katana-awesome bogu" inspired kenshi. and I know how to count 1 to 10 in Japanese! :D

[Dervish]

This whole thing kinda reminds me of my very whitebread, traditional Roman Catholic sister-in-law. She and her husband are in the process of adopting a second child from China. Her mother (my mother-in-law) is in the hospital for cancer treatment and one of her doctors is Chinese. So my sister-in-law, upon meeting this doctor just started blabbing, "Oh, we have a Chinese son. We love China and Chinese food. Y'know, I look at our son and sometimes I feel like I'm part-Chinese myself!"...

The issues expressed in this thread remind me of this sketch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYTbpCTphdc).

[Kenzan]

The issues expressed in this thread remind me of this sketch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYTbpCTphdc).

Mad T.V. is the whole 'nuther level. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkJhsQZk3U8)

[Badtz-Maru]

When I wrote the original post, I had no racism in mind.

I have nothing against enthusiasm to learn.

Look at it this way. Someone said that I can be a "Motodachi" for someone to learn Japanese from. I have never had a single day of formal Japanese education in my life. I've had a lot of Kendo training.

I teach Kendo by choice. I like to teach people Kendo. While I enjoy seeing people learning and enjoying the Japanese language, I don't really care to be their conversation partner. Most Kendo instructors don't make any money. I sure don't. Do I have to teach Japanese for free now too? Can I not hang out with my students or Kendo friends and enjoy their company (when we are sitting around speaking English) without someone coming and speaking to me in Japanese (Wah-Tah-Sheee Wahhhh Nihonnn neee ittttte kimmmasheeetahhh)?

Like I said, I have two Dojos, am VP of Education, was the team coach... what more do you want from me?

Also, my beef was with people who have known me for a while or who know about me who subject me to this. If you've never met me or heard of me, that's fine. I'm stunned when it's people who know me or have heard me speaking.

[MAZ77]

When I wrote the original post, I had no racism in mind.

I have nothing against enthusiasm to learn.

Look at it this way. Someone said that I can be a "Motodachi" for someone to learn Japanese from. I have never had a single day of formal Japanese education in my life. I've had a lot of Kendo training.

I teach Kendo by choice. I like to teach people Kendo. While I enjoy seeing people learning and enjoying the Japanese language, I don't really care to be their conversation partner. Most Kendo instructors don't make any money. I sure don't. Do I have to teach Japanese for free now too? Can I not hang out with my students or Kendo friends and enjoy their company (when we are sitting around speaking English) without someone coming and speaking to me in Japanese (Wah-Tah-Sheee Wahhhh Nihonnn neee ittttte kimmmasheeetahhh)?

Like I said, I have two Dojos, am VP of Education, was the team coach... what more do you want from me?

Also, my beef was with people who have known me for a while or who know about me who subject me to this. If you've never met me or heard of me, that's fine. I'm stunned when it's people who know me or have heard me speaking.

I am struggling with your crux of the isue here. Is it

1) people speaking to you of non japanese decent with horrible japanese and perfect english

2) people of non japanese decent speaking horrible japanese to anyone in any venue

3) is this only pervasive to kendo activities

I only ask because, as far as kendo, you are in a japanese traditional art. I dont need to spell this out to you since you know. Since you are japanese, I am sure you would expect this to some degree, and griping about it is somewhat childish; but granted i understand your frustration. This happens to any first or second generation person. This works the other way around, when meetings, seminars, or just even dojo practices are taught in just japanese, I suck it up and try to learn regardless and i dont speak a lick of japanese. But it comes with the territory as most of the higher ranking sensei in socal japanese nationals, and either 1) have horrible english or 2) chose not to speak in english.

When in rome, expect the romans.

[Hyarion]

At any rate, I'm guilty of that when speaking to Japanese people with limited English. You have to slow it down and simplify to be understood, and before you notice it you're falling into the same speech rhythms as they have.

That's the whole point, isn't it? If you adjust your grammar and word use to the style they are used to (derived from Japanese grammar and word use) they will find it easier to understand you. I think some people do this naturally because they have an intuitive feel for it; they know how to best communicate an idea.

[Tsunemori]

I visited a different dojo earlier this Monday. Had a jigeiko with a Japanese sensei I've never met before, and later on he went up to me.

"Excuse me, what is your name?"
"My name is Bernard."
"Ba...?"
"Bernard."
"Bena?"
"Bernard!"
"Benud?"
"Baanaado!"
"Ah! Baanaado."

It's funny because years ago I was talking to a Japanese exchange student and he couldn't understand what "volleyball" meant until I pronounced it as "barre-booru". I speak very little Japanese, so I wouldn't dare to attempt to speak to someone with it (other than maybe to talk about the weather), so I always use English.

And I don't know if this is relevant to the thread at all, I just think it's a bit amusing.

[Knicky]

I think it really depends on the person and their intentions. I`m living in Japan now and a lot of the Japanese I learned, I learned through the Japanese where I was practicing at home. However; maybe the main difference is that they weren`t nisei.

I think if you are nisei and you can speak both languages fluently...You really have a lot you can teach people. Also, I think there are two main types of people you are talking about.

1. Want to speak Japanese because its cool (for whatever reason)
2. Want to speak Japanese because they are trying to accomplish something.

I started really trying to learn Japanese when I made the decision a couple years ago that I will be moving to Japan and really need to start learning. At times it was painful for some people; but most of them knew my goals and my reasons and were fairly accomodating. My senpai eventually stopped speaking English to me and would just yell at me in Japanese; inside of the dojo and out.

Maybe you get offended because you look at yourself as American first; which you are, and don`t like people thinking you are Japanese. I`ve seen this problem time and again with people in kendo enviroments..Even if they are born and raised here, on the same fast food and little league games as everyone else; they automatically look at a Japanese-American as Japanese, instead of American. Which is utter bullshit. If you are born here or are a citizen...your an American. Why I love this country :)

A lot of foreigners in Japan have to beat away the Japanese with a stick that want to speak English...To really learn Japanese you have to find friends who want to help you speak Japanese...Not just be selfish and learn English.

I think if you find someone who has a real genuine desire to learn Japanese; with good intentions, then its just one more thing you can pass down to someone.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I actually totally agree with Badtz-Maru because I get the opposite here in Tokyo. We are lucky at my dojo in that most of our foreigners speak pretty decent Japanese and more importantly most other members are more interested in establishing a relationship based around kendo and communicating in the easiest way, which is far more frequently in Japanese (although not always). However you do get the odd guest who is determined to practice their rubbish english on me no matter the cost to basic human communication. I come to the dojo to do kendo, not help people with their english. I am not an english teacher, will probably never be one, and if I was would probably be even less keen to bring work to the dojo. That's not to say that I will never help people - I have assisted dojomates in writing work emails in english before, but that's because we get on and I'm happy to help, not because they're forcing it on me. I totally know where you're coming from Badtz Maru, even though our positions are not quite the same.

[Kingofmyrrh]

If you are born here or are a citizen...your an American. Why I love this country :)

I totally agree with this... so why do all the Chinese Americans in my office support China over the US in the Olympics...? They are not Chinese, they are American, and none of them have anything more than family links to China. Errr anyway that's got nothing to do with anything, but is it common for second generation people to support their ancestral country over their real country in the US? I am genuinely curious.

[Knicky]

I totally agree with this... so why do all the Chinese Americans in my office support China over the US in the Olympics...? They are not Chinese, they are American, and none of them have anything more than family links to China. Errr anyway that's got nothing to do with anything, but is it common for second generation people to support their ancestral country over their real country in the US? I am genuinely curious.

They are alienating themselves at that point..Not us :)

[verissimus]

I totally agree with this... so why do all the Chinese Americans in my office support China over the US in the Olympics...? They are not Chinese, they are American, and none of them have anything more than family links to China. Errr anyway that's got nothing to do with anything, but is it common for second generation people to support their ancestral country over their real country in the US? I am genuinely curious.

In this context, we need a kendo test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket_test).:ponder:

[turboyoshi]

Also, my beef was with people who have known me for a while or who know about me who subject me to this.
Ahh, sorry for misunderstanding you. It sounds like they're just selfish people. Have you just bluntly told them to speak english? I'd be surprised if that doesn't shut them up but you may know people with more determination to be jackasses than i do. :)

sean

[Badtz-Maru]

I think if you find someone who has a real genuine desire to learn Japanese; with good intentions, then its just one more thing you can pass down to someone.

I do help my own students who ask me first. Not some people who just barge in on my conversations. I do pass on a lot of language and cultural knowledge to them.


I come to the dojo to do kendo, not help people with their english. I am not an english teacher, will probably never be one, and if I was would probably be even less keen to bring work to the dojo. That's not to say that I will never help people - I have assisted dojomates in writing work emails in english before, but that's because we get on and I'm happy to help

Well said.


Ahh, sorry for misunderstanding you. It sounds like they're just selfish people. Have you just bluntly told them to speak english? I'd be surprised if that doesn't shut them up but you may know people with more determination to be jackasses than i do.

I do not accept the apology since none was necessary :) I would think that responding to them in English was sufficient, but I may have to take the route you suggest.


so why do all the Chinese Americans in my office support China over the US in the Olympics...? They are not Chinese, they are American, and none of them have anything more than family links to China. Errr anyway that's got nothing to do with anything, but is it common for second generation people to support their ancestral country over their real country in the US? I am genuinely curious.

That is an odd one... this is how I am since my life is complicated:

Born in Canada
Parents are Japanese
American Citizen with American Family

So...

Ever since trying out for Team USA in Kendo for the first time after I submitted my citizenship papers, I have supported the US in international competition since if I were at that level, that is who I would now represent.

I do have one exception and forgive me all for this... in Hockey... I must cheer Canada... you have to understand this one... Anything else, I am with the US.

When Japan is involved, I will root for them if US and Canada are a non-factor or have already been eliminated. So when they played Cuba in the finals of the World Baseball Classic (US and Canada already gone...) I cheered for Japan and even bought the official cap and shirt.

So in order, I cheer for:

1) US
2) Canada
3) Japan

[Anime12478]

I understand where Badtz-Maru sensei is coming from on this one, but for a different reason. I am pretty sure all of us have been subjected to similar treatment at some point or another based upon how you look, what you do or who you associate with. I actually have been subject to ridicule, even by people of the same race, for not acting "black" enough, meaning I don't sound or act like the famous black people on TV, wear normal sized clothes with my pants around my waist, don't know every single rap song known to man and think BET is one of the worst channels known to man.

It might seem shallow to get annoyed at people who have certain expectations for you, but it does get pretty bothersome when people have these expectations that you can't fulfill because it's not part of your character and there really isn't anything you can do about it.

[Badtz-Maru]

Chris,

I feel for you. My best friend here at work is an African American. If you spoke to him on the phone, you'd swear he was white or something else. He likes to sit at home, drink beer, drives a pickup truck, wears Wrangler jeans (that fit him) and is the biggest NASCAR fan I know. Oh yeah, his favorite band is Godsmack. His own people ridicule him relentlessly here at work.

I defended him once asking the African American workers why they ridiculed someone who wanted to be successful (my friend is an area team leader on the manufacturing floor) and chose to live a life free of drama, drugs, hip hop and police altercations. They are actually proud of the fact that he makes two child support payments saying that's as black as it gets for him.

Is BET that bad? I watch it sometimes.

Thanks for understanding and putting it in a different perspective though.

[Bokushingu]

Chris,

I feel for you. My best friend here at work is an African American. If you spoke to him on the phone, you'd swear he was white or something else. He likes to sit at home, drink beer, drives a pickup truck, wears Wrangler jeans (that fit him) and is the biggest NASCAR fan I know. Oh yeah, his favorite band is Godsmack. His own people ridicule him relentlessly here at work.

I defended him once asking the African American workers why they ridiculed someone who wanted to be successful (my friend is an area team leader on the manufacturing floor) and chose to live a life free of drama, drugs, hip hop and police altercations. They are actually proud of the fact that he makes two child support payments saying that's as black as it gets for him.

Is BET that bad? I watch it sometimes.

Thanks for understanding and putting it in a different perspective though.

Well I'm American of African descent. I do listen to hip hop because i grew up on it & enjoy it. But like your friend, i have been told that i was not black enough or a sell out. I don't dress fancy, but i don't dress ghetto, but I do go out from time to time with sweat-pants and a t-shirt. Just 2 months ago a police helicopter was circkling over my neighborhood broadcasting, "Looking for a 6'1" black male with white T-shirt & blue Shorts!" I looked down, saw i was wearing a white T-shirt with blue shorts & scrambled back in the house to change. :) I don't speak slang. Many people think that speaking slang is talking black, but that's not the case; slang is slang: bad english & anyone can use it.

When i use to club (back in my 20's) I went to all black clubs & most of my friends were/are black. But as i posted before, we don't use the N-Word & find it offensive when coming from anyone. some hip-hop do use the N-word or an abreviation of it--I try to listen to the cleaner versions.

But when it comes down to it, i don't see myself any different than any other American. I feel Affirmative action actually hurts people and is not needed.

As for Kendo, i have to admit, i don't care too much for the people that do it to be Japanese or to meet Asian Girls. I'd rather here they got interested in it because of anime or samurai/ninja movies than to be something they aren't.

[bullet08]

I was just having some thoughts and questions running throuh my head. I figured that this was the best place to post them....

you are not mean, just annoyed. i just typed lot of things that annoy me.. but like everyone else, i'm getting older and getting annoyed comes with being old.. after few pints things like that just simply disappear.

pete

[Alison2805]

Here in this little town in Brazil there are few people who speak english, so when people meet me, if they know only two words in english they will go out of their way to use them. I dont mind, its a great social ice-breaker. I had one little streetkid selling chocolate walk up to me when I was eating in a restaurant - he was about 6 years old, and grab my hand saying "hello, my name is such-and-such", give me a kiss and walk away. It was perfect english, he made no attempt to sell me something, nothing, he just noticed that I spoke english and wanted to say something! It melted my heart!

What annoys the hell out of me is a couple of my workamtes who refuse to speak to me in portuguese. I need to learn very badly, but all they want to do is practise their english. Meanwhile Im going insane trying to cope here without enough understanding of the language. There is only one guy here who will practise portuguese with me, and I am so thankful!!!! I dont think the other guys realise how much more I need to learn portuguese than they need to learn english.

I agree with Badz situation though which is quite different. I have had one similar occurance here where a guy walked up to me in a pub and started speaking to me. I didnt know him, I was having a good time with my friends, and he decided this was a good opportunity to hijack my night and practise english with me, whether I wanted to or not. He was the obnoxious "I play guitar and have tasted fosters (youre supposed to be very impressed by this) I have visited the united states, Im awesome and because I speak english I am better than everyone else here and you owe me your time" crap. I had just worked 12 hours and just wanted to drink my damn beer and relax. It took half an hour to get rid of the guy.

Thankfully this has only happened once! Im sure it will happen many more times though.

[JoDuncan]

there's a lovely 2 word phrase you could have used to cut-short your agony there Ali... now, if only I can remember... [something] off... hmmm, can't think of it...

[Fonsz]

I had just worked 12 hours and just wanted to drink my damn beer and relax. It took half an hour to get rid of the guy.

Thankfully this has only happened once! Im sure it will happen many more times though.
What the 12 hours working or the stalker? Geez, working 12 hours long wouldn't that be called slave labor?

[LarsCW]

Personally I think the best sollution to counter these people is just to speak back in complex hard to understand language.

Then when they don't get it you speak to them in the language they do understand and wish them goodluck with their study.

I understand that when you haven't offered someone to help them with their language skills in Japanese it can come over being forced.

Put yourself into their shoes.

They are learning kendo, you're their sensei and most likely they would like to practise their language skills with someone they respect, not keeping your feelings in retrospect.

You should know how many times someone online has been practising Dutch on me, them having Dutch ancestors and wanting to learn the language. I just bare with it and i'm proud that someone would want to learn my language.

I hope you feel better having writen down your feelings about this.

Do keep in mind that there might be students of you who might have read this and now feel uncomfortable or maybe are even hurt.

This still is a public media, open to anybody able to google something.

[Badtz-Maru]

I hope you feel better having writen down your feelings about this.

Do keep in mind that there might be students of you who might have read this and now feel uncomfortable or maybe are even hurt.

This still is a public media, open to anybody able to google something.

Very thoughtful reply. Thank you. I will definitely think about what you said.

I do feel better having let it out in writing.

My students are all very well aware of how I feel and as I mentioned before, they ask me to help them converse and do not push it on me and since I know them and they know me, intentions are clear. So if they see this, they will just say "there goes Sensei again..." and laugh.

[cidergeorge]

From now on anyone that looks even slightly non English speaking, instead of grabbing for the phrasebook or trying to drag the odd word I have learnt from the darkest depths of my mind, I shall just shout loudly and slowly at them in my mother tongue. Oh hang on I'm English and already do that, he he. TWO BEERS PLEASE! TWOOOOOO BEEEEEEEERRRRRRSS PPPPLLLLLEEEAAASSSEE.

[LarsCW]

When I read your post i took the time to read the whole thread and think about it because this was clearly not some rant and I could sense that it does something to you.

I'm glad you're feeling better from writing this out.

Good luck on dealing with this furthermore.

I'm sure you'll figure it out.

[MAZ77]

I totally agree with this... so why do all the Chinese Americans in my office support China over the US in the Olympics...? They are not Chinese, they are American, and none of them have anything more than family links to China. Errr anyway that's got nothing to do with anything, but is it common for second generation people to support their ancestral country over their real country in the US? I am genuinely curious.

That happens at my work too. But then again, I think Chinese Americans are very tied to their culture and identify with it more. I am not sure why, but that is the way i percieve it. I also think the turmoil of their country in the past makes cheering for any advancement a nice change of pace for them, especially in the olympics.

I always root for the US. But I also always root for spain if the US is not involved. US= #1, Spain =#2.

[Josh Reyer]

I root for Japan over America in most cases (though not all). It has nothing to do with patriotism -- I love America, and all other things considered I'm happy when America wins. But I've come to realize that rooting for America is like rooting for the Yankees, or for Manchester United. I'm a Cubs fan, so I tend to root for the underdog.

[ArcticBlizzard]

After reading the thread I think it's important to divide the people in to 3 groups.
1. People with the best intentions and trying to please you (of course when people do this and it takes too long I tend to switch to english, but I really like the effort)
2. people who are learning the language
3. people who think they speak the language or try to show of

Group 2. I myself am from Holland and currently I'm learning Japanese. Began with a course, some self study and within a couple of weeks my course starts again. I practice on my fellow students and my sensei. I think it's weird to just walk up to someone and start talking in a language you just began learning. But when people do it to me (not that often since Dutch isn't really popular) I always try to listen and help. But also then a lot of times I switch, because english is that much easier.

Group 3. I really hate. We had one guy that was showing off that he knew 4 words japanese and he used them often. One day I was fed up and asked him in Japanese if he really did understand japanese and if so if he would like to talk to me since I could use the practice. I think you can guess the outcome.

Actually I'm a lot more irritated by people you just met asking you where you are from. When I reply and tell them my hometown they just ask again. I myself think it's very rude when someone is asking where you are from and want to know which country you are from because you don't look like the natives. I lived in Holland nearly my whole life (lived in norway for 2 years). Yes I don't luck dutch, but my name is as dutch as it can get I don't have an accent. I know I look Indonesian/Turkish but I'm dutch so please don't tell me it's not possible since I think I know best. I don't mind being called "Indo" at all (because Indonesian people think I'm Indonesian too, so do Turkish people) but I do mind the fact that it's an issue if I am or not. Sorry to go completely offtopic but this has been bugging me for a long time.

[xvikingx]

I always root for the US. But I also always root for spain if the US is not involved. US= #1, Spain =#2.

Me. I'm a die-hard Malta fan. Or as I like to call it, the little island that could. GOOOO MALTA!

[xvikingx]

Geez, working 12 hours long wouldn't that be called slave labor?

Yeah but the pay is better and there is a whole lot less whipping involved.

[The great I AM]

Me. I'm a die-hard Malta fan. Or as I like to call it, the little island that could. GOOOO MALTA!Little known Gibbo-fact:

I'm half maltese, really.

[Kenzan]

Mmm...Malts (http://www.hardrock.com.hk/images/ThickShakesandMalts.jpg)...

[JoDuncan]

My mum used to work in Malta for a Commodore.
(not the electronic kind)

Anyone else with obscure ties to Malta? I think this could re-ignite some passion for that easily forgotten island of significant strategic importance...

[Charles Lockhar]

I was just having some thoughts and questions running throuh my head. I figured that this was the best place to post them.

<snip>

Sorry about this. This has bugged me for years and thought I'd share with some of you who just might understand or be equally confused. Since this is the Flames section and I haven't threatened anyone, I'm cool right? :) I'll stop my bitching and go back to being good ole Badtz-Maru.

Well dude, there was a time when I would have probably annoyed you with my bad Japanese skills (bad as in the original "not good"). For a long time I would have taken any opportunity to use what little Japanese I knew, just the opportunity to flex the skill and try to retain something I'd learned would have meant a lot to me. Particularly of value would have been being able to talk to somebody who could correct me in a way I understood.

OTOH, I'm not the type of guy who wants to burden someone, so if I figured out that you didn't like it (if you said "please don't practice your Japanese on me" for instance), I wouldn't do it again, and I wouldn't be offended.

I tend to think of myself as pretty mainstream, so this would probably be the case for a lot of dudes who you find annoying.

-Charles

[JCM]

Very thoughtful reply. Thank you. I will definitely think about what you said.

I do feel better having let it out in writing.

My students are all very well aware of how I feel and as I mentioned before, they ask me to help them converse and do not push it on me and since I know them and they know me, intentions are clear. So if they see this, they will just say "there goes Sensei again..." and laugh.

I instantly identified were you were coming from when I read your first post, althought for me is with the Spanish language, being a prime holiday/retirement destination for people in Europe a lot of Europeans take an interest in learning a bit of the language (thank you) so I find myself in this situation very often. Perhaps others living abroad (maybe English speakers in Japan) can also see where Badtz-Maru is coming from.

There was a post on this thread about defaulting to the language in which both parties were most fluent. This is something I do often, you may not realise how exhausting it is to the native (or fluent) speaker. It takes a lot of effort if the language skill level of the person you are conversing with is low. You also feel under obligation to humour them as often times you don't know each other well enough to just ask to switch back to English without seeming rude. Is hard to tell if the person is doing it out of politeness, and in that case it would be easy to hurt their feelings, also making you look like a prick.

Perhaps is impatience on our side too, as we know there is a language in which we both are very fluent.

Anyway, just thinking out loud.

[Paburo]

i have plenty nisei friends but i try not to annoy them too much with my broken japanese. specially not sensei, since they have this tendency of whacking me on the head for improper behaviour and silliness :silly:

i personally don't have a problem with helping out foreigners with spanish, kendo related ppl or not. in fact i have a specialty in slang and dirty words lol jk :D

but really, i have an interest in languages, so one day i'll help out ppl, the next day hopefully someone would help me out as well. all in good charity and manners.

as an offtopic, malta... malta is famous in spain for this (even though it happened EONS ago!!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8urfHRbvXU

a football match that ended 12-1. if you dont know much about football(soccer) you should know a 12-1 outcome is almost unrealistic at international level. its not a win, its a total massacre....

[Alison2805]

Geez, working 12 hours long wouldn't that be called slave labor?

Nope, its called a career in the exploration industry. 12 hours is a standard day. Its the 18 hour days that kill you. :smoker:

[JoDuncan]

Nope, its called a career in the exploration industry. 12 hours is a standard day. Its the 18 hour days that kill you. :smoker:

Dude, don't you gots Google Earth?

I can find where all the shit is on that.

[dohrt]

I don't know about speaking Japanese, but I definitely have noticed that there is a certain conundrum with regards to Japanese culture and Kendo.

On the one hand, Kendo uses Japanese terminology, Japanese concepts and philosophy, and seems to incorporate a great many unspoken Japanese cultural elements as part of it's social mechanic. It is basically a requirement for a westerner to gain some level of proficiency in these aspects of social interaction to get anywhere in the kendo world. After all, kendo begins and ends with reiho.

And yet, for westerners who try too hard, or who step too far (for lack of a better word) in trying to embrace those Japanese ways, the penalties are as severe as failing to observe them at all. But to make it even more interesting, where you stand on that scale (too-little, enough-but-not-too-much, or too-much) is always a mystery.

From my experience, no Japanese person will ever tell you when they think you are a complete idiot. Sometimes they will simply become ultra polite, as if they were talking to a child. Or sometimes they will just ignore you outright. Much of the time, though, as a westerner, you will never really be able to tell at all where you stand. Of course, I strongly suspect that many Japanese (if not all of them at one time or another) have been as irritated as anyone about the whole thing. It's just they don't seem to say it.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that for a westerner, it can be quite a struggle to find that middle balance between under-doing it and over-doing it. As such, my heart goes out to those who try to learn Japanese and use it around Japanese in kendo circles; Ganbatte kudasai!

[samurai80]

I understand where Badtz is coming from. In fact, I've stopped myself from uttering my ridiculous Japanese to Japanese before. First thought in my head..."Oh, Japanese, I'll relate to them by speaking some bad Japanese." Second thought in my head..."Wow, what a dork. Don't say that stuff. Certainly don't mention kendo, either." I think he feels the same way my friends feel when people feel the need to "talk black" to them. We usually just smile, and look at each other weird.

[rcheung135]

We usually just smile, and look at each other weird.

Haha... this was subtle! :laugh:

[samurai80]

I think it is just an automatic reaction to how confusing, AND amusing it is to see someone act like that. Depending on if they decide to drop the "n" word in there, the reaction may still involve us looking at each other weird, but there isn't any smiling.

[swyn]

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that for a westerner, it can be quite a struggle to find that middle balance between under-doing it and over-doing it. As such, my heart goes out to those who try to learn Japanese and use it around Japanese in kendo circles; Ganbatte kudasai!

Is this universal for anyone who try to adopt a culture he/she wasn't born into, not only in martial art world?
I'm asking this because I've experienced something very similar as an immigrant, outside of the martial art world but within Japanese culture.

I immigrated to the states from Japan by choice. Met quite a few Japanese people here, some with intention of living here for good, some with intention of going back whenever their professional/academic requirement is over, some wanting to go back to Japan so badly but can't due to their family (usually husbands') obligation to stay here. There are always other Japanese people who don't like the degree of your assimilation of American culture no matter what you do. There is no perfect happy medium. If two Japanese people who lived here long enough start talking to each other in English (often even without knowing which language she/he is speaking), another Japanese person will start laughing thinking it's ridiculous. A person may criticize someone for not adopting American culture and the next thing she/he says about someone else may be "You should do this if you're Japanese." Well, then, what are you?

I've lived here long enough, I don't give a shit anymore. I'm happy with my mixture of the two cultures the balance of which constantly changes, I'm aware that many Japanese people don't consider me as fully Japanese anymore (if I were one to begin with), some of my American colleague might think I have some weired cultural thing going on, but I don't care. My clients love me and I hope it's partially because of my cultural back ground and partially because of my personality and professionalism.

I don't care in which language people talk to me, I answer in whichever I'm spoken to with, or the one that is easier for me to express the given topic.

I can't say that I understand the hardship of being Nisei though. I only know the hardship of Issei, which I believe is completely different from that of Nisei for moving to the States was fully my own decision which I'm truly proud of.

Yuko

[JoDuncan]

Is this universal for anyone who try to adopt a culture he/she wasn't born into, not only in martial art world?
........

Yuko

If it was, would there be so many "little [Insert country / capital city of choice]" districts out there?