Katate waza

[Trent]

Whether a good thing or not, I have noticed that I have been doing a few katate men waza during jigeiko - keeping in mind that I am fighting from chudan.

In a shai situation, if this was that land and there was zanshin afterwards, would a shinpan score this? Or would they not score it because they are not expecting it to occur?

[ShinKenshi]

Whether a good thing or not, I have noticed that I have been doing a few katate men waza during jigeiko - keeping in mind that I am fighting from chudan.

In a shai situation, if this was that land and there was zanshin afterwards, would a shinpan score this? Or would they not score it because they are not expecting it to occur?I think this is something better left to your sensei because we can't see you and therefore can't really say one way or another whether or not it would be counted. My personal feeling is that from chudan, anything other than katate tsuki would be better used against someone taller than you so you can get that extra reach. Mind you this is just a guess since I don't have much experience with katate waza so as I said in the first place, better to talk to your sensei about it.

[Halcyon]

Whether a good thing or not, I have noticed that I have been doing a few katate men waza during jigeiko - keeping in mind that I am fighting from chudan.
When you say "I have noticed that I have been doing," does this mean you've been doing it unintentionally?

[tango]

Giving a general answer to the general question, I'd say yes, it would/should count.

I've seen it happen.. from chudan, katate-yokomen.

Having said that, I don't know that it would score in certain tournament divisions... In 3.dan+ division, if it were a damn fine move with all the proper elements, I'd say yes (see the above). In 1.dan/2.dan division, I'm really not sure. In mudansha or youth division, I don't think it would score.... not because katate-men from chudan could not score, but because at those levels, you typically don't have someone who can hit katate-men with the proper technique, power, etc.

[Neil Gendzwill]

No rule against it.

[Bokushingu]

does anyone have a link to videos of Katate tsuki being used & gaining an ippon? I wonder if Ahmed has video of his

[NigelSponge]

i've scored with it several times. No one can really deny you the point if you get the loud pop on the men. That's my exp. anyway.

[D'Artagnan]

does anyone have a link to videos of Katate tsuki being used & gaining an ippon? I wonder if Ahmed has video of his

Search "Eiga 12th WKC" into youtube...

p.s. I have scored katate-men (from chudan) in a shiai...

[ShinKenshi]

does anyone have a link to videos of Katate tsuki being used & gaining an ippon? I wonder if Ahmed has video of hisSuch as this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx03B4C6KZ8) or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqm2m9Igii0)?

[Bokushingu]

Such as this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx03B4C6KZ8) or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqm2m9Igii0)?

whoaaaaaaa! nice! I forgot about Eiga winning that with a K tsuki (I'm getting old)

Thanks. I like that second clip better.

btw i was wondering why does the shinai hit the floor after the hit with some people?

[Kenzan]

Speaking of Tsuki,
(Not that I would try it)
But is there anything in Shiai rules that says Kyu grades cannot do Tsuki?

[Bokushingu]

Speaking of Tsuki,
(Not that I would try it)
But is there anything in Shiai rules that says Kyu grades cannot do Tsuki?

I don't think we can do it in the SCKF.

[Kenzan]

I don't think we can do it in the SCKF.

Of course, it's a given that we can't, but my point is I have yet to see any rule against it.

[tango]

Speaking of Tsuki,
(Not that I would try it)
But is there anything in Shiai rules that says Kyu grades cannot do Tsuki?


No.
The rulebook only talks about matches as a whole and doesn't break it down into individual tournament divisions --- especially since there are no guideliness as to how a tournament even could/would/should be broken down into divisions.

[tango]

btw i was wondering why does the shinai hit the floor after the hit with some people?

Use the search function on the board here for some help.

That topic has been discussed into the ground.

[MikeW]

Kenzan, there is no FIK rule that I am aware of that forbids the use of tsuki at any level. However, local Federations and local Taikai often times will announce the rules for their particular taikai and many have rules that forbid tsuki for lower Kyu grades and mudansha in general. Also there was a KW discussion on this topic a hwile back at:

Tsuki thread (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4636&page=3)

[Kenzan]

Kenzan, there is no FIK rule that I am aware of that forbids the use of tsuki at any level. However, local Federations and local Taikai often times will announce the rules for their particular taikai and many have rules that forbid tsuki for lower Kyu grades and mudansha in general. Also there was a KW discussion on this topic a hwile back at:

Tsuki thread (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4636&page=3)

Grr..
Just wait until I'm Shodan...

I'm gonna Tsuki the world!

HAH! That joke works on so many levels.

[Bokushingu]

the funny thing is I remember reading it somewhere, "Mudansha--tsuki not allowed" but I can't find it anywhere.

Btw, Kenzan 9/28 you going to do the SCKF team championships?

[Kenzan]

Btw, Kenzan 9/28 you going to do the SCKF team championships?

Generally speaking, If it's a Shiai, I'm there.

[ahmed61086]

does anyone have a link to videos of Katate tsuki being used & gaining an ippon? I wonder if Ahmed has video of his

I still havn't found a video of it. It wasn't katate though.

I wonder if the guys at Shidogakuin have it taped?

[Bokushingu]

You know S.Domen from the 2006 Team USA/2008 Team SCKF did a smooth katate Tsuki-Men at the 2008 US Nationals. it was an awesome Ippon.

[nebosuke]

Of course, it's a given that we can't, but my point is I have yet to see any rule against it.

After the last AUSKF champs, it came to light that the only rules forbidding tsuki, gyaku-do, and jodan were for the jr. kyu division. For senior kyu - I hate that name, sounds like 70 year old kyu - and everybody up from there (this includes you, in adult kyu), it's open season. All of the SCKF dojo reps know about it, it's been discussed in two meetings and through e-mail.

There is still much gnashing of teeth over concerns of injury potential, etc., but those are the current rules - unless otherwise specifically stated at an event.

You might want to ask those you practice with to start exposing you to these, so that you aren't caught completely off-guard if something comes your way in shiai.

[Kenzan]

After the last AUSKF champs, it came to light that the only rules forbidding tsuki, gyaku-do, and jodan were for the jr. kyu division. For senior kyu - I hate that name, sounds like 70 year old kyu - and everybody up from there (this includes you, in adult kyu), it's open season. All of the SCKF dojo reps know about it, it's been discussed in two meetings and through e-mail.

There is still much gnashing of teeth over concerns of injury potential, etc., but those are the current rules - unless otherwise specifically stated at an event.

You might want to ask those you practice with to start exposing you to these, so that you aren't caught completely off-guard if something comes your way in shiai.


Oh no..no..no..don't tell me that.
ahah.

Ahahaha...

MUAHAHAHAHAH!!

MWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA....!!!!

[Bokushingu]

well I have to admit I started practicing Tsuki about 6 months ago...just waiting for if I pass my shodan exam.

[Zornocology]

last calss i was asked to start practicing tsuki (not in geiko) and told that i could start trying it in geiko after my ikkyu exam in dec. i think that this is something that could be different from one kendoka to the next and grade doesn't really tell you if you're ready or not.

[NigelSponge]

you should always practice tsuki, whether or not you should use it in class/shiai is decided by your sensei/federation, but if you weren't practicing it through the kyus, you might be a bit dangerous once you hit shodan and decide to start using it all the sudden without any previous practice. Same for all those other "high level" techniques imo.
And the no gyaku do for kyu's that Nebosuke mentioned is kinda excessive, but i guess i'm just saying that because it's one of my favorite waza >_<

[MAZ77]

Oh no..no..no..don't tell me that.
ahah.

Ahahaha...

MUAHAHAHAHAH!!

MWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA....!!!!

If you are trying to fish as to whether or not you can do it in shiai, the answer is no because I said so. Also Yamasaki sensei is working on getting more concrete verbiage for SCKF.

[Bokushingu]

I thnk even i we get concrete permission to use it in a shia, i wouldn't use it in the Mudansha division--many kyus just aren't ready for it or have ther posture to take the hit properly.

I know in my club many of the Yudansha use Tsuki against me on a regular basis, but mainly because i know how to take the hit. And some of them say it's the only way to keep me off em' :)

[MAZ77]

I thnk even i we get concrete permission to use it in a shia, i wouldn't use it in the Mudansha division--many kyus just aren't ready for it or have ther posture to take the hit properly.

I know in my club many of the Yudansha use Tsuki against me on a regular basis, but mainly because i know how to take the hit. And some of them say it's the only way to keep me off em' :)

Yup. I think it has no place in shiai for mudansha either. At the dojo, if your sempai/sensei think you can take it, then you just have to suck it up, and its a good learning experience. But if they do it to you, you can reciprocate too.

[xvikingx]

Tsuki them all and let God sort it out.

[G-CHAN]

Unless you're at least a 3dan, I would forget about trying tsuki. Just too dangerous IMHO. There is nothing worse than getting stabbed in the throat by a guy who doesn't have the experience or the skill to try it.

Please work on becoming efficient at striking kote, men and doh first. Then your counter attacks. Master the basics first.

However, if you are going to practice tsuki and you're not very good at it(I'm assuming you guys have been taught how to properly execute a tsuki?)I would at least tell the guy I'm going to practice using tsuki especially if he's a visitor from another dojo during keiko. Just my opinion.

[NigelSponge]

Unless you're at least a 3dan, I would forget about trying tsuki. Just too dangerous IMHO. There is nothing worse than getting stabbed in the throat by a guy who doesn't have the experience or the skill to try it.

Please work on becoming efficient at striking kote, men and doh first. Then your counter attacks. Master the basics first.

However, if you are going to practice tsuki and you're not very good at it(I'm assuming you guys have been taught how to properly execute a tsuki?)I would at least tell the guy I'm going to practice using tsuki especially if he's a visitor from another dojo during keiko. Just my opinion.

Looking at the way the armor is, and where it covers, if someone is getting stabbed in the throat, it's most likely their fault imo (throwing their head back or wtvr.) And if someone isn't experienced enough to use tsuki, then there shouldn't be much difficulty in parrying (etc.) it.
I respect your opinion, but i think no tsuki until 3rd dan is a little extensive.

[G-CHAN]

Hey Nigel, you're right, experienced kendoist can parry the tsuki. What I'm talking about is a kyu guy trying a tsuki against another kyu guy. Bad things can happen. IMHO I just feel at that level there is so many other things to work on.

Oyasuminasai......

[ahmed61086]

[quote=G-CHAN;349432]Unless you're at least a 3dan, I would forget about trying tsuki. quote]

Waiting till your 3rd dan to do tsuki I think would realy impede the growth of ones kendo.

And it realy isn't that dangerous. Just dangerous compared to other attacked done in kendo.

[NigelSponge]

Hey Nigel, you're right, experienced kendoist can parry the tsuki. What I'm talking about is a kyu guy trying a tsuki against another kyu guy. Bad things can happen. IMHO I just feel at that level there is so many other things to work on.

Oyasuminasai......

in that case i agree, kyu on kyu tsuki is not the safest thing in the world, not only because of skill level, but kyus have a tendency to get overly competitive with one another, which can result in poor waza. But i say by 1st dan, even 1kkyu, one probably has the amount of control necessary to do tsuki without making a neck-kabob every time lol.
oyasumi =)

[Kenzan]

If you are trying to fish as to whether or not you can do it in shiai, the answer is no because I said so. Also Yamasaki sensei is working on getting more concrete verbiage for SCKF.

Darn. (http://codeinsurrection.com/pics/noooo.jpg)

Ah well.

[Bokushingu]

Darn. (http://codeinsurrection.com/pics/noooo.jpg)

Ah well.


LMAO!!!!!! kudos for trying. hahahaha--that poor bird.

Our Sensei has been teaching it as a one on one basis to the nikkyu & ikkyu that are allowed to test. He puts both his kote on either side of the target so if we miss we just hit his kote. he believes even though we can't use it, we need to learn it to prepare for the future. And a few of us Kyus, with good posture, are allowed to recieve Tsuki frew yudansha.

I say allowed to recieve becuase i feel it's an honor: they trust & believe in our form.

[xvikingx]

they trust & believe in our form.
Shouldn't that be the other way around???

[Fudo-Shin]

I think it is vital for instructors to stress the 'back-pull' in the early stages of someone using tsuki. I agree with Ahmed on this 1...I think there is just too much stigma built around beginners using tsuki. I have been bruised on the throat much worse by a 6-dan than anyone else - accidents will happen in Kendo, it doesn't mean we should stick to only cuting men all of the time IMO...besides, beginners will 'usually' try tsuki very tentatively so there 'usually' won't be too much impact anyway. Having said that though, your goal in those early stages should be concentrating on men and some kote and even less again, dou. Just my thoughts, I'm no expert.

[Geordie Bruiser]

[quote=G-CHAN;349432]Unless you're at least a 3dan, I would forget about trying tsuki. quote]

Waiting till your 3rd dan to do tsuki I think would realy impede the growth of ones kendo.

And it realy isn't that dangerous. Just dangerous compared to other attacked done in kendo.

Before you start attempting Tsuki you must have a certain amount of control over you're Shinai and most people don't have that until they get to Sandan.

And as for it not being dangerous, when attempted by someone who has no control it can be extremely dangerous!!!

[Fudo-Shin]

Personally, I get more pissed off when someone cuts an awkward men that leaves an ear ringing than I do from a wayward tsuki, as long as the tsuki wasn't too wreckless. I find a whack around the ear more dangerous as the damage could be permanent. How about dou, should beginners avoid cutting dou until they are 3Dan so they don't risk bruising a rib?, or even breaking a rib on a lighter framed person. For the most part a wayward tsuki may leave some bruising that should clear up in a short time, same as any other missed target.

Respectfully Geordie, I think to call tsuki "extremely dangerous" is extending the truth, unless you are talking about a strong person with a "I'm going to skewer you then beat you into the ground because we all know I'm better...I'm the best here and you all must realise my superiority, now watch this tsuki...RARRRR!!!" kind of attitude. If motodachi is not overly moving around trying to avoid being hit then there should not be alot of danger in a lower grade trying tsuki if this is done responsibly, it is not a waza that should be done 'heatedly' or faster/stronger than one can handle. If Kendo is not being done responsibly than anyone can be a danger regardless of rank.

As I said before, I think there is just too much stigma built up around lower grades using tsuki, you have to start somewhere...but then again, we may be seeing 2 completely different scenarios of this in our heads. Over here, we are allowed to use tsuki after shodan, which generally takes about 3 years to attain, I think this is fair. If every beginner were to wait unitl they reach 3dan it could be 6 or more years before they get there and would feel completely awkward in terms of incorporating it into their game as opposed to just doing it during rotation etc....again, just my thoughts on the subject. :)

[Trent]

When you say "I have noticed that I have been doing," does this mean you've been doing it unintentionally?


To be perfectly honest with you, what happens is more like a nuki-katate men. i.e. I would say that rather than my waza coming from a chudan kamae, it probably comes from a temporary jodan kamae as I bring my hands up to avoid the cut and step back - and then do the cut.

I could be wrong in the specifics of how it occurs, but this is what I have been doing.

[Halcyon]

To be perfectly honest with you, what happens is more like a nuki-katate men. i.e. I would say that rather than my waza coming from a chudan kamae, it probably comes from a temporary jodan kamae as I bring my hands up to avoid the cut and step back - and then do the cut.
For the near future, I would focus on:
1. Not stepping back.
2. Trying not to avoid the cut, but rather to counter the attack with ai-uchi.
For now, it's probably a more productive line of practice rather than trying to pull off a move like men-nuki-katate-men.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Katate-men classically is from a temporary jodan. Raise to jodan, watch for any opening that creates, launch your katate-men in the same manner as jodan kendoka do.

[Bokushingu]

Katate-men classically is from a temporary jodan. Raise to jodan, watch for any opening that creates, launch your katate-men in the same manner as jodan kendoka do.


I have been meaning to ask, what is the difference of using katate Men from Chudan than just Men?

There are a few people I see do it as you stated from my club, but I can't understand why...it seems like they could have just gone regular men.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's a change in timing to shake things up, it gives you better reach, if you get it in it's a very clear point.

[NigelSponge]

It's a change in timing to shake things up, it gives you better reach, if you get it in it's a very clear point.

this.


sadfdsa

[Bokushingu]

ahhh thank you. so when you throw it does the left foot move forward or is it regular fumikomi?
sorry to be a pain in the butt.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Either, but typically left, which gives you even more distance because you're crossing over.

[dwez]

I've noticed when I practice katate-waza if I try to cut as quickly as possible then the kensen would end up below my imaginary opponents chin, which in practice would hurt. So I try to apply tenouchi during my practice, which stops at men height, however the speed of the cut is significantly reduced. When I have used it during jigeiko it has come very slowly although a couple have hit.

Checking out this thread I see that going up to jodan to get an opening may be something I can use to help but in going from chudan how would I reconcile the tenouchi versus speed problem I have. Or is that something I'm best asking during class, where someone can see me?

[Neil Gendzwill]

how would I reconcile the tenouchi versus speed problem I haveKeiko........

[emitbrownne]

Checking out this thread I see that going up to jodan to get an opening may be something I can use to help but in going from chudan how would I reconcile the tenouchi versus speed problem I have. Or is that something I'm best asking during class, where someone can see me?

Make sure your body is moving, the shinai doesnt cut down. It cuts forward and through your opponent, just as it does with a regular cut.

People often forget this when cutting with one hand.

[Tatu]

Katate-men classically is from a temporary jodan. Raise to jodan, watch for any opening that creates, launch your katate-men in the same manner as jodan kendoka do.

I love the feeling of this movement - it's very powerful.

[dwez]

I've managed to make a decent cut or two with katate-men recently, however I was wondering about follow through? Y'know which sort! As I step forwards with the left foot amd make contact with ki-ken-tai-ichi do I then carry on through as it seems quite difficult to continue the forward motion. Is the cut to stop with more conviction in your kiai of 'selling' the cut. Is that where the zanshin lies?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Follow through with your left foot forward. The motion is difficult because you haven't practiced it. Try adding some suriashi practice with left foot forward.

[dwez]

Follow through with your left foot forward. The motion is difficult because you haven't practiced it. Try adding some suriashi practice with left foot forward.

So would there be no ippon without the continued movement, left foot forward?

[Neil Gendzwill]

So would there be no ippon without the continued movement, left foot forward?In general, yes. Of course there are exceptions but basically you need to move and be able to defend yourself. Most people who are new to katate-waza throw the technique then end up vulnerable and stuck. Consider your position if you miss the waza - if you don't move, you are likely in trouble.

[ben]

I have been meaning to ask, what is the difference of using katate Men from Chudan than just Men?

There are a few people I see do it as you stated from my club, but I can't understand why...it seems like they could have just gone regular men.

There is also a less obvious but still effective katate men with right foot forward. It can be done with a slight pause at the top of the swing, or with no pause. The benefit again is greater distance (although less than with left foot forward), it's slightly easier than the more conventional katate men, and it often remains unclear to your opponent exactly what technique you've used.

b

[Bokushingu]

I lost my 4th match sunday due to not following through after my Katate men. I was one point up. Once my opponent realized that I could not move anymore he came in with 2 Do and won--He kept his composure & played well. Something i will have to work on.