TKD problems in the olympics

[Kapplow]

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/taekwondo/news?slug=cr-lopez082208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[samurai80]

Sounds like he was being a baby, and the WTF (I love the Acronym , fits perfect) were being on the shady side.

[Fudo-Shin]

WTF is the problem with the WTF?

[NigelSponge]

i didn't read the whole thing, but it sounds like there are way too many rules. I guess that's what happens when you turn a martial art into a business.
They should just fight to KO imo lol.

[Kapplow]

Makes me glad we don't have to deal with all that nonsense.

[Richard Kim]

There's controversy in every sport. Remember the scoring error controversy in the Men's Gymastics in 2004 with one of the Hamm brothers? And if you like controversy, you should have watched the Olympic boxing matches this year. Oy.

[ben]

Still, as riddled with controversy as boxing is, I think it's the last of the really watchable martial arts at the Olympics. The others (TKD, judo and fencing... can't comment on the wrestling) have all developed rules or styles that have essentially emasculated the art. Fencing: the victory celebrations last longer than the actual engagements; judo: as some wag on budoseek.net said, is just a race to see who can flop on their tummy fastest, and TKD = one word. Riverdance.

Read this article (http://www.theage.com.au/news/taekwondo/dead-legs-and-another-kick-in-the-teeth/2008/08/22/1219262523923.html)about TKD in my local paper this morning. Apart from being a prime example of excruciatingly bad sports journalism, I couldn't help some shadenfreude at the fact that even having dumbed down their art to appeal to the lowest 10% (and the writer of this article fits that demographic to a tee), the WTF (WTF indeed! :D) still can't get that 10% to take TKD seriously.

Here's an example:

...Fortunately, taekwondo can be explained by an INXS lyric: "Sometimes you kick, sometimes you get kicked." Do it in the chest or head and you get a point. It's not brain surgery - even if that's what you might need if you don't put your helmet on properly. And so straight into the women's under-67 kilogram class action where the natural misgivings you suffer about an unfamiliar sport must first be overcome. Things like how, as the combatants bob up and down on the balls of their feet waiting for the right moment to strike, you wonder if you've mistakenly wandered into the trampolining...

b

[Kenzan]

In my view, this sort of thing is precisely why Kendo should never be an Olympic sport.

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Just watched the British Girl in the quaterfinals, formal protest at a non scored point (her chinese opponents head)
referees decison China
protest by GB
protest upheld, chinese girl out (5000 strong crowd didnt like that much !)

British girl went on against mexican & must have had the whole world against her

she lost unsurprisignly

Id hate to see Kendo go through that

cheers

[NoNameKleenex]

Cuban banned from WTF for life:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/23/olympics.cubanattacksref?gusrc=rss&feed=sport

[H.Sandsleth]

One of the TKD males kicked the judge in anger...:confused2
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/54/544/544536/cubanerXcopyX4_1219496504_1219496525.jpg

(maybe the norwegian in the final would have done a little better if she had gotten a little agitated...bleh..)

edit: same story as above, different pic though...

[NoNameKleenex]

Edit timed out: sorry!

I meant to add that I think these athletes are forgetting that they're representing their countries and should accordingly.

I also can't remember any other Olympic years where was this much egotistical and downright asinine behaviour. I'm sure the Olympic Games are going to be renamed as the Olympic Escapades sometime soon.

[Mr. T.]

Like many said before me, we are lucky kendo isn't in the Olympics. If this BS is the Olympic spirit, we'll be in for a treat when the day comes: steroids, disrespecting your opponent, not knowing how to bow properly (they should send the entire judo department to etiquette school :mad:), bitching and screaming against a judge like a little baby when you are losing, do I really need to go on? :down:

Fair play and the Olympic spirit my @$$

Olympics are good for getting your sport exposed, but look at the price you have to pay. Is it worth it, in my opinion: NO. TKD might get kicked out of the Olympics, for which they totally raped… uhhh, transformed a proper MA into a game of tag for adults, which means all that “hard work” might have been for nothing and TKD can never be transformed back into the art it was way back. It will always be that silly thing it is today.


done ranting, good night!

[samurai80]

Wow. Kicking a ref, and shoving another one. On top of that, kicking someone in the head...lame. When you get mad enough to hit someone, what do you do? Do you...

a) Ball up your fist and punch them in the face

b) Shove one guy, then turn around and side-kick a guy in the head

c) roll on the ground and shout "fire!!!".

Hint: The answer is a. Never in my life, besides a comedy, have I seen a grown man even attempt to kick another man in the head as their first strike. Actually, MMA aside, I've never seen a grown man kick another man in the head (standing up).

[NigelSponge]

One of the TKD males kicked the judge in anger...:confused2
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/54/544/544536/cubanerXcopyX4_1219496504_1219496525.jpg

(maybe the norwegian in the final would have done a little better if she had gotten a little agitated...bleh..)

edit: same story as above, different pic though...

that's hilarious

[James]

Edit timed out: sorry!
... athletes are forgetting that they're representing their countries and should accordingly.
.. can't remember any other Olympic years where was this much egotistical and downright asinine behaviour...

Er.. there has constantly been emotional unseemly behaviour including crowd brawls, protests, walking outs, officials snubbing athletes (that Hitler guy) boycotts. The whole US boxing team were going to withdrawing after a bad decision in 1928, until they were talked out of it by by MacArthur.

Practically every Olympics has been a a bribefest with the cheated athletes pressurized to bend over and take it (for the good of their sport/country/career). What looks like petulance if often the result of an athlete after years of training having secured a victory being told that they have to give it up for some erroneous decision, knowing the beneficiary is a couple of judges who get the gold (literally) in a hotel room.

The IOC is notorious for covering up, with extreme prejudice, any hint of scandal. Remember Roy Jones in Seoul 1988?
The underage gymnast thing is being swept under the carpet, is it just a coincidence that as recently as 2007 several of the girls had officially registered different ages. However the IOC does not investigate it just says that the passports give appear to be in order.

Kicking the ref is probably overstating a point, but - for example if the British team hadn't kicked up a fuss with video evidence the host nation would have one more medal. I was surprised they reversed it, extremely rare, but then as Phil said it turned Sarah Stevenson into a hate figure for the home crowd - probably scuppering her further progress.

If athletes are representing their countries, they should dispute injustices.

BTW. I DO enjoy the Olympics - but it is senseless to not accept it for what it has become. I am not the only one wondering what back room machinations secured the Olympics for London when Paris clearly had the better bid. Or how it took 400,000 pounds + one year to come up with a logo which makes the Chinese one look inspired (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=a2sIMk1-QD8).

There are occasional bad sportsmen, but usually when things go pear-shaped the athletes are just the most visible ones, under pressure often from their own coaches/countries to dope/lie about their age/take a bad decision up the anus..

Meanwhile let's remind ourselves about Roy

Jones represented the United States at the 1988 Seoul Olympic Games where he won the silver medal. Jones dominated his opponents, never losing a single round on route to the final. His participation in the final proved to be hugely controversial when he lost a highly disputed 3-2 decision. Jones lost to South Korean fighter Park Si-Hun, despite pummeling Park for three rounds, landing 86 punches to Park's 32. Allegedly, Park himself apologized to Jones afterwards. One judge shortly thereafter admitted the decision was a mistake, and all three judges voting against Jones were eventually suspended. An official IOC investigation concluding in 1997 found that three of the judges were wined and dined by Korean officials, but the IOC still officially stands by the decision. Jones was awarded the Val Barker trophy as the best stylistic boxer of the 1988 games. The incident, along with another highly disputed decision against American Michael Carbajal in the same games, led Olympic organizers to establish a new scoring system for Olympic boxing.

After the 2002 Winter Olympics scandal where the Olympic committee decided to award gold medals to both Russia's and Canada's figure skating teams after finding that the French judge had been bribed, Jones had hoped that the committee would re-open his case and award him a gold medal, but no such action was taken.

[samurai80]

I'm still trying to figure out where the politics came into play with the Cuban fighter. Seems like he went over his one minute to get taped up, or whatever, and they called him on it. It isn't like the fighters aren't aware of the rules. "Olympic rules? I had no idea!". On top of that, I'm sure they are all aware of the politics involved at that kind of level in the first place. So instead of kicking judges, or throwing your medal away, or protesting, how about showing some ettiquite for your martial art. If you don't want to deal with the BS that comes along with these sort of competitions, don't compete in them. Ever had a questionable ippon awarded against you? I didn't tsuki a shimpan, or blame it on something else. I bowed to my opponent, bowed to the shimpan, and thanked the other kendoka for the match. I was aangry with myself, because I had allowed something like that to happen in the first place.

[ghostdancer]

here ya go see in action
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics/taekwondo/7578743.stm

[samurai80]

Better watch it fast...it's getting banned off of the internet quicker than child pornography.

[ghostdancer]

Better watch it fast...it's getting banned off of the internet quicker than child pornography.

WHY??

bad for the image i take it, thats life, would probably get forgotten quicker if "they" ignored it

[samurai80]

Have no idea. People keep putting it on youtube, I'll go back to watch it a couple of minutes later, and it will say the video has been removed because of third party copyright issues, or it says the video is no longer available.

[shidokurisu]

The guy just lost his own control. Emotions run very high at these games and as those above me have stated, some times you are going against pre-determined odds. Letting it get to the point of him kicking the ref in the face though just shows his lack of ability to control himself. No doubt it is upsetting as hell to be in some of the situations they are put in, but you have to swallow your pride and keep the spirit going. Let them be the ones at fault, not yourself.

[NoNameKleenex]

. . . lots of stuff . . .


James,

I guess I was thinking more-so in my recent memory (which is usually suspect anyways) with my original post - you've obviously done your homework!

I usually watch the Olympic events that have a concrete measure (ie. any of the events such as sprints, pole vault, etc.), and am unsure of the rules for judged competitions. I'll be the first to admit I'm quite naive about Olympic scoring controversies.

I suppose it's the idealist in me, however, that keeps hoping that such bribery/behaviour/doping/etc. is kept at a minimum in something that's supposed to be the epitome of amateur athletic achievement.

[xvikingx]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1c4_1219536441

Still I'd rather see this than syncronized swimming or fkn speed walking!

[samurai80]

They actually showed speed walking?

[NoNameKleenex]

They actually showed speed walking?

Yup, and what an amazing photo-finish it was. *sarcasm should be noted*

Apparently there were a couple people who were disqualified for trying to jog during the stroll *ahem* race.

[James]

I suppose it's the idealist in me..

Nothing wrong with that - my view of the Olympics has already been stated in the Kendo + Olympics thread.

My point is that these unfair practices have been pretty much constant throughout the modern Olympics. And that the Authorities not the Sportsmen and women are traditionally the culprits.
Furthermore when they are (often obviously) wrong - the first thought is cover-up and lean on the athletes.

Abrahamian dropped his bronze medal on the mat after he was told that he automatically couldn't have a video appeal of his situation. I don't consider that just petulance, I consider it a frustrated protest after refusing to be fairly heard - and in a way he could have access to enough media that it wasn't swept under the carpet.

And surprise, surprise this just in:
Court: Wrestler who dropped medal was right

By (AP) 4 hours, 13 minutes ago


BEIJING (AP)—It turns out that the Greco-Roman wrestler who was stripped of his bronze medal for dropping it in disgust on the mat had reason for being angry, according to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Ara Abrahamian of Sweden complained to CAS that a penalty in the second round of his 84-kilogram bout on Aug. 14 against Italian Andrea Minguzzi wasn’t assessed until after the round ended. Once factored in, Abrahamian automatically lost the match. Minguzzi went on to win the gold medal.

Abrahamian’s coach was then denied a request for a video review, then the wrestling federation—the International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles, or FILA—refused to consider a protest.

The 28-year-old Abrahamian had to be restrained from going after matside officials following his loss to Minguzzi. He stormed away from the area where interviews are conducted and slammed a door to the dressing rooms.

After he was given his bronze during the medals ceremony, Abrahamian walked off the podium, went over to mat and dropped it in disgust and walked away. On Aug. 15, the International Olympic Committee disqualified Abrahamian and stripped his medal for violating the spirit of fair play during the medal ceremony.

The Armenian-born Abrahamian—who also lost a 2004 Olympic semifinal match on a disputed call—initially wanted judges in the bout tossed out and his medal restored. But in the end, he only wanted CAS to verify that the lack of an immediate appeals process is a loophole that needs to be fixed. It also was referred to as a violation of “the Olympic Charter and FILA’s own rules about fair play.”

Judges said Abrahamian was right.

“We limit ourselves to ruling that FILA must, consistently with the (Olympic) Charter and general principles of fairness, establish for the future a jury of appeal to determine the validity or otherwise of complaints of the kind ventilated by (Abrahamian),” the judges wrote.

Elsewhere in the 20-page ruling, judges noted several times that FILA did not appear at a hearing.56

[Nokori 3byo]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1c4_1219536441

Still I'd rather see this than syncronized swimming or fkn speed walking!

Hahaha. My French is rusty, but doesn't the commentator, while trying to stifle his laughter, say something like "He's continuing to use his tae kwon do, this time on the referee"? Funny stuff, and a far cry from another commentator's anguished "Mais pourquoi? Mais pourquoi?" when Zidane headbutted that guy at the World Cup.

To James: your post was a brilliant read and your point well taken. The follow up post also shows your opinions have been given a measure of vindication by events in Beijing. Clearly, the IOC needs to do some house-cleaning, or it will continue to betray the olympic spirit.

Even so, those atheletes are adults who also happen to be delegates representing their countries. I don' think that the modicum of self-control required to restrain oneself from kicking a referee in the face is too much to ask. Furthermore, as you have pointed out, there are cases in which wronged atheletes are vindicated after the fact. Given that possiblity, I think it would be to their advantage not to throw tantrums in the competition area. Look at how much better things worked out for the English tae kwon do competitor that for her less even-tempered peers.

Is Abrahamian's disconduct at the ceremony going to hurt his chances of having a medal resoted to him, I wonder...

[James]

Thanks Nokori 3byo,
of course you are right it's better if the athletes maintain dignity for themselves and their sports, the Cuban has damaged himself amongst his fellow sportsmen probably having put the last nail in the coffin of Taekwondo continuing as an Olympic Sport.
I think with the British Taekwondo, firstly they didn't have their appeal immediately summarily dismissed, secondly the Chinese didn't fight against the appeal decision, if those things had happened things may have gone differently. For example US mens Taekwondo settled for Bronze after Lopez was eliminated from gold-medal contention on another controversial decision. We'll never know if that was the right decision.

In decision sports like boxing, taekwondo etc. there will always be errors, but I think that the appeals process is a lottery depending on which officials are dealing with it and whose interests are at stake. Also different sports own international bodies which regulate the sports such as FIFA or WTF are often mired in their own controversies.

Despite my tirades, I am all for the Olympics, (Women's Beach Volleyball). I just think that the processes for handling corruption / protests etc. need to be constantly revised - with doping that has pretty much happened, at one time whole national teams (Soviets admitted this) were under doping regimes by their coaches - but difficult to get away with now.

I very much like that in Kendo we (are supposed to) show no emotion win or lose. Although anyone near the Korean camp's mats at the Glasgow WKC will know emotions are barely kept under the surface sometimes. (Japanese emotional response happily tends to be tears at competitions win or lose - on any televised competitive events lingering close ups of winners or losers brushing away tears is mandatory).


Funny stuff, and a far cry from another commentator's anguished "Mais pourquoi? Mais pourquoi?" when Zidane headbutted that guy at the World Cup.

Good memory, my favorite Gallic incident will always be Cantona's "Kung Fu incident" when he drop kicked a spectator - mainly for the press conference in which he famously reasoned: "When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown in to the sea."

[ben]

Nothing wrong with that - my view of the Olympics has already been stated in the Kendo + Olympics thread. {devasting analysis edited for space}
[/SIZE][/FONT]

+ rep for you!

b

[ben]

Even so, those atheletes are adults...

I don't think they are (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=349771&postcount=22) in many cases.

b

(Apologies for quoting myself).

[NoNameKleenex]

Thanks James, for the discussion. You bring up some very interesting points I'll have to chew on while watching the closing ceremonies.

[James]

Thank you NoNameKleenex -
sitting with my head in my hands after watching the handover - as the whole of Britain collectively clenches it's buttocks - the logo debacle and now the 'bus and Umbrellas' we're really going to raise the quality of the next Olympics; but you know, God Bless Jimmy Page

[rainmaker]

Forget about Olympic. I was told there are already lot of BS politic games going on in current Kendo federation too..

[Fonsz]

Forget about Olympic. I was told there are already lot of BS politic games going on in current Kendo federations too..
Just thought I had to clarify your contribution here.:rolleyes:

[bullet08]

ok.. so he was wrong in kicking the ref in the head.. but on purely technical stand point, i thought that was a beautiful kick.

pete

[whosesoever]

Any recorded case of a Kenshi doing a men-uchi against a Shimpan yet?

[sid]

Matos spat on the shiai-jo as i read it
thats unforgivable

[JoDuncan]

...... God Bless Jimmy Page

The Dark Lord of The Metal is most displeased with Lord Page. He shall take back the gifts He hath given....
Tell you what though, that leona lewis is worth a squirt.



As for olympic TKD, it's pish. End of.

[James]

..that leona lewis is worth a squirt.

(Raising eyebrow like Teal'c) "Indeed!"

[Kenzan]

...
Tell you what though, that leona lewis is worth a squirt.


Except for her heffer-esque Cow legs.

I'll bet she wears a size 12 horseshoe.

[ScottUK]

I will be leaving -negrep for you for that, you turd. ;)

[JoDuncan]

Except for her heffer-esque Cow legs.

I'll bet she wears a size 12 horseshoe.

Since when did cows wear horse shoes?

[Super Kodachi2]

Olympics are good for getting your sport exposed, but look at the price you have to pay. Is it worth it, in my opinion: NO. TKD might get kicked out of the Olympics, for which they totally raped… uhhh, transformed a proper MA into a game of tag for adults, which means all that “hard work” might have been for nothing and TKD can never be transformed back into the art it was way back. It will always be that silly thing it is today

To be fair (having been a former TKD practioner myself) there are two very distinct schools of Tae Kwon Do.

WTF = World Tae Kwon Do Federation

ITF = International Tae Kown Do Federation.

The WTF are the ones who join the Oylmpics and the ITF are those who are agaisnt the Olympics. ITF was founded by one of the first teachers of TKD just after WW2, and maintains a very different style and approach to TKD that in my opinion is much better (I studied under a ITF School myself).

So to say that all Tae Kwon Do is silly is a bit harsh. WTF Tae Kwon Do certianly has lost its way, but ITF Tae Kwon Do continues very well and is a much more refined and budo orientated art.

[Mr. T.]

Point taken, fair enough.

[JoDuncan]

......
So to say that all Tae Kwon Do is silly is a bit harsh. WTF Tae Kwon Do certianly has lost its way, but ITF Tae Kwon Do continues very well and is a much more refined and budo orientated art.

I have thought it strage that it is still called TKD in the olympics even if it is just TD.... ;)

[sid]

i heard ITF is primarily north korean and WTF is mostly south korean. also the story goes that the founder of TKD wanted to move back to north korea cause he was NK'ean so the WTF cut him out, so he founded ITF and since then there has been bitter rivalry between the two. WTF is more popular though....
i may be wrong, thts the story version i heard somewhere...

[Kenzan]

Since when did cows wear horse shoes?

In Soviet Russia...

Nevermind..

[JoDuncan]

In Soviet Russia...

Nevermind..


I don't know much about 'Soviet Russia', so I can't comment.

But I'm fairly sure Nevermind had a picture of a baby on it, with a fiver or something floating by... no cows with horse shoes in sight.