The HDGD world-championships.

[ilporko]

For your amusement and interest, not for teaching, conversion, or demonstration, I'm posting some photos of the HDGD world championships. They are still-photos only, and not videos, because I forgot to pack batteries for my video camera, but even so I think they might be of interest. I'm posting in the 'flames' section because this thread has nothing to do with kendo or iiado etc.


Players' parade
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/Gyeokgumandyidanplayersparade.jpg

Country and dojang banners are brought into the stadium
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/Nationalbanners.jpg

Close-up of the banners.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/NetherlandsNigeria.jpg

Gum-mu (sword dancing) during the opening ceremony.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/Maletwoswordgummu.jpg

Single-person sword forms, 4th dan or higher.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/Seniorsolobaldocloseup.jpg

Another player in the single-person sword forms.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/Indkumbupwithstaff.jpg

Single-person sword forms, second dan.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/Solouppervcutindaedosae.jpg

Multiple straw-pole cutting.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/multiplestrawcutting.jpg

First-dan bamboo cutting.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/Ildancutsbamboowithshimpaninbackgro.jpg

Second-dan multiple-bamboo cutting.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/Multiplebamboocutting.jpg

Final, bamboo cutting at 4th dan.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/Seniordancutsbamboo.jpg

[Yoh]

so how exactly does the haidong gumdo tournament work? do people take turns performing various feats, and are then judged on an individual basis?

[Kagerou]

Great......... (http://blog.b92.net/arhiva/files/images/can%20of%20worms.jpg)

[ilporko]

so how exactly does the haidong gumdo tournament work? do people take turns performing various feats, and are then judged on an individual basis?

Not to open a tin of worms (Kagerou!), but the way it works is that people perform in groups of, say, four, and are judged by the shimpan, with the top two progressing to the next round, where they will perform a higher level form or cut or whatever. For safety, cutting of bamboo or straw is done indivudally.

[Kagerou]

Don't get me wrong....you can explain till the cows come home and it's fine by me, I just know this is going to be worthy of the flames section VERY soon.

[ilporko]

It's already in the flames section for the reason I gave in my first post. :)

I've given up trying to respond to those people who either attack me personally, or are out just to ridicule an art (be in gumdo or synchronised pig swimming or whatever).

[sid]

slashing-with-sneakers-on dont look so authentic , dont u think?

[ilporko]

^It's up to the individual whether he or she wears sneakers/footwear. Some people use very slim, lightweight footwear that's just for gumdo and Korean-style kendo, while others (including me) prefer to be barefoot. I tried cutting while wearing footwear, and never did it again.

[Mr. T.]

All of it is way to colorfull for me. But each his or her own I guess. Don't get me wrong about HDGD and all of that stuff. It's just that they sell it as traditional swordsmaship, and even though nobody wil buy that nonsence, while it's just made up. To me there is nothing wrong with playing samurong, or something else you call made up warriors, but the organisation should be honest about it. Nobody buys the BS anyway.

So they want to cut things up, fine by me. Just not my thing and it just looks silly to me.



Close-up of the banners.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/ilporko/NetherlandsNigeria.jpg


There is a Dutch section, damn. :confused2 Rather supricing, HDGD are a lot more marketing orientated than us kendo/iaido/jodo/ etc.-ka, but I've never seen them pop up in Dutch media.

[Master Shake]

It's just not cricket.

[Master Shake]

^It's up to the individual whether he or she wears sneakers/footwear. Some people use very slim, lightweight footwear that's just for gumdo and Korean-style kendo, while others (including me) prefer to be barefoot. I tried cutting while wearing footwear, and never did it again.

Did you get a bit of claret on your Nikes?

[foundinsea]

I'd say Koreans are just trying to find their own "sword" culture. Decades of "culture homocide" will do that to a people...although I wonder if this will go the way of taekwondo? One thing that I don't get though...if it's so Korean, what's with the hakama?

[Fred27]

I'd say Koreans are just trying to find their own "sword" culture. Decades of "culture homocide" will do that to a people...although I wonder if this will go the way of taekwondo? One thing that I don't get though...if it's so Korean, what's with the hakama?

Pfft! Everybody knows the hakama is actually a korean invention from 5000 BC.

[Peter West]

All of it is way to colorfull for me. But each his or her own I guess. Don't get me wrong about HDGD and all of that stuff. It's just that they sell it as traditional swordsmaship, and even though nobody wil buy that nonsence, while it's just made up.

No-one will buy it? I don't think you noticed how many people are there doing it. It's a strange thing, but it seems the more people have to pay for something the more they respect it. Very few, if any, korean arts classes are cheap, a lot of money is made and the classes are full. Often teachers are promoted as 7th or 8th degree and have been training about as many years. Put a kendo or iaido 7th dan (who will have been training a minimum of 20 years) in front of a class and charge a break-even on hall costs fee to the students and you will only get a few.

[SamuelRiv]

I think some of you need to mind your manners regarding Korea and its martial arts history, especially since there are plenty of Koreans on this forum. An old Japanese instructor said to me once that taekwondo was just taken from karate and then its history was made up. Well, I guess when the real history is lost, nobody can really argue that it wasn't made up. But does it mean taekwondo is less legitimate as a MA?

Very few cultures are able to preserve MAs as well as Japan has - note that all Western swordplay schools and hand-to-hand (which was very extensive with plenty of emphasis on disabling, locking, and removing armor) have been lost pretty much until foil fencing was introduced.

Haidong Gumdo is what it is - I'm unfamiliar with it, but I don't think any practitioner would deny that it's more "flashy" and breaks from tradition in many aspects.

[Fred27]

An old Japanese instructor said to me once that taekwondo was just taken from karate and then its history was made up. Well, I guess when the real history is lost, nobody can really argue that it wasn't made up. But does it mean taekwondo is less legitimate as a MA?


I find it very difficult to respect people who proclaim they teach 2000 year old martial arts (or whatever) and when questioned about the age they start to whine "at least it is an effective art".

[Anonymous]

I find it very difficult to respect people who proclaim they teach 2000 year old martial arts (or whatever) and when questioned about the age they start to whine "at least it is an effective art".


Unfortunately TKD is barely that as well.

[Masahiro]

i think it looks neat, and i hope all who attended had fruitful gains.

As for the bashing the Korean and their sword culture. It's time to put a cork in it yeah? Remember we are doing kendo to better ourselves and not to feel superior in anyway?

[Roberto]

Weren't we superior already? xD

[JByrd]

It's a strange thing, but it seems the more people have to pay for something the more they respect it.

I have noticed that, too. The term "Veblen Good" is sometimes used to describe that phenomenon.

I also think it has something to do with people's tendency to substitute a surrogate measure when they can't measure the thing they'd like to quantify. Since most people have no basis for judging the quality of martial arts instruction, they accept something they can measure (like cost) as a surrogate measure of quality.

[Big One]

i think it looks neat, and i hope all who attended had fruitful gains.

As for the bashing the Korean and their sword culture. It's time to put a cork in it yeah? Remember we are doing kendo to better ourselves and not to feel superior in anyway?


I agree. It's getting annoyed every time when someone say "Korean" and we started to open our mouth.

I should point out that Korea had a very long developed culture that was developed way before Japanese culture started to bloom. For very long time, everything coming to Japan were from Korea.

We should realize that japan is not a center of Asian culture and I am sick to hear anyone to say that TWD came from Karate but they intentionally forgot to say that Karate came from Kungfu, and that included any respected Sensei.

Since Japan modernization and become strong, it conquered Korea pennisula and many records and books were intentionally destroyed. Then I say Korea had the right to resurrect their culture, period.

Yeah, 50 years from now, people will think that Japan invented TV and a Samsung TV is just the copy of Japanese TV.

It's alreay happen. Look at the Bonsai case. How many people think that Bonsai originated from Japan?

[Kagerou]

It's alreay happen. Look at the Bonsai case. How many people think that Bonsai originated from Japan?

everyone knows da kitties did it first (http://www.kilala.nl/Images/Blog/BanzaiCat.jpg)
didn't even have anything to do with trees....stoopid umans!

[rainmaker]

I have seen some of them excercising very hard to get best out of HDGD. I personally do not like it but it is my own opinion. However, if others enjoy doing it, working very hard, I am sure they can get something positive out of this. Good for them ! I will only focus on my perfection in Kendo. You know what they say "Do your Kendo."

[SamuelRiv]

I find it very difficult to respect people who proclaim they teach 2000 year old martial arts (or whatever) and when questioned about the age they start to whine "at least it is an effective art".

Ah, so all TKD practitioners do this, the same way all practitioners of seitei iaido react when you tell them their traditional swordsmanship was created in 1969? And does anyone who's been doing either for more than two years ever say "at least it's an effective art"?

[Kagerou]

These conversations remind me of this (http://www.cs.wustl.edu/%7Eschmidt/gifs/stupid.jpeg)

[Anonymous]

Remember we are doing kendo to better ourselves and not to feel superior in anyway?

Some of us. I do it because I think its fun I also think its fun to harass people who do TKD.

[ilporko]

I'd say Koreans are just trying to find their own "sword" culture. Decades of "culture homocide" will do that to a people...although I wonder if this will go the way of taekwondo? One thing that I don't get though...if it's so Korean, what's with the hakama?

This thread surely changed a lot since I last checked! Thanks for the replies, everyone.

dk... The paji, or bottom part of the uniform, isn't a hakama. It doesn't have himo, or an obi or a backboard. Instead there are two cords that are drawn and tied, and a belt that goes just under those cords.

After all, even the samurai either took their hakama off, or put them up around their waists, before fighting. Modern kendo tends to use indigo-blue hakama with backboard and himo mostly because you people usually like the look of it.

I think that the tournament went well. The dojang I was in while in Korea had a good tournament, and lots of people I met from other countries were enjoying the occassion, if not the reality of defeat. I mis-timed one step and had to take a double step to balance, so my last cut in one sequence went left-right rather than right-left. All the shimpan scribbed in their notebooks and that was that. Eight months' work of five days a week went into four minutes' effort, and that finished in one serious mistake.

One of the shimpan remarked that if the championships were won purely by a combination of technique and kihap (kiai to you all), I would be a champion, so I should work to increase my speed and reduce my nervousness, while making sure not to lose my technique and ear-splitting kihap. Before the championships, when we were all wishing one another luck and shaking hands, the guy who ended up as world champion at my level had to grab my hands to steady them as I was shaking so much.

He finished second in a group (third and fourth got eliminated), while I got third, and the thing that I remember most is how we all were genuinely wishing one another luck. After the finals, I met some of the people I'd competed against, and we could all pose for photos and shake hands and hug, and if we could do our best in a contest with no malice towards our opponents, then it's unreasonable to ask much more of us.

Here's a little anecdote to finish up on. As I shook hands with a shimpan and bowed, and walked off, the rest of the dojang came over to meet me, but thery waited behind the other players, so that those players wouldn't be bothered by the high-fives and thumbs up and excited babbling that were sure to ensue.

Now, if I changed this post to talk about a kendo contest, how many people would agree with my remarks about sped and technique, hard work over time, fairness, respect, and not being malicious?

Well, some of you have already pointed out that you have nothing against HDGD, but that it's not your cup of tea. I suppose that you have no trouble with someone talking about this art, or doing it.

But even while trying to avoid being rude, I think it's fair to say that rubbishing gumdo is a bit off the mark. Yes, it had a dodgy history, with con-artists claiming -master- status and what not. But today the federation is savage in its attempts to stop this. There are standardised health and safety requirements; dojang equipment; uniforms; curriculum; training methods; and teacher certification. I can go to the gumdo federation website www.hdgd.org and ignore the samurang blurb, and see the 'correct' curriculum, so if my teacher is a con-artist that will be known very quickly.

HDGD used to be a joke in the 1980s, but it is much better know, yet kendo still labours under the weight of all these conmen and their crappy little dojos and lies and even sometimes dangerous instruction-methods.

If i posted links to Gottlen or Ashida Kim or that Mountainous chap, and called them 'Kendo', you people would blow a gasket in your haste to contradict me. You would say to me to hie my butt to a dojo, because only the experienced can teach the student. Funny that, how some (note 'some' not 'all') of you don't apply the same apporach to HDGD.

End of rant.

[ilporko]

Ah, so all TKD practitioners do this, the same way all practitioners of seitei iaido react when you tell them their traditional swordsmanship was created in 1969? And does anyone who's been doing either for more than two years ever say "at least it's an effective art"?

Sorry about the double post. Seitei iaido is part of a direct treadition, as I understand it, which goes back to feudal Japan. The founders of each of the ryuha can be named, and credited with their creations.

On the other hand, HDGD is the most-common of the eight variants of Beuon-wheechota-hai-dong-gumdo, or the sword art of the east-sea people, which was researched in the 1950s and formulised in 1982 by Kim Jeong-Ho and Na Han-il. Na han-il split from the HHDGF and established Haedong Kumdo, which is more Japanese in style than HDGD is.

Kim was a sixth-dan in Gicheon-mun, while Na was 4th dan. Gicheon-mun, also known as Gicheon, is the art of divine power, and its pressure points are used in gumdo. In 1950, the leading gicheon teachers agreed to revive the lost sword arts of Korea, or (note this) to fill in the gaps with material taken directly from the records found at Jin-ju, where fewer than 1,000 Korean monks defeated an army thirty times their size using a combination of swords, bows and arrows, and an art now proven to be Gicheon.

Gicheon is a religious art, inspired and maintained by monks in Korea. It is fully internal, so there are no belts, no grades, no contests, and no opponents other that the student him/her self. This art is at least 1,400 years old, and may go all the way back to India and the birth of Buddha. It is also not haidong gumdo.

For those who have done HDGD you eill know that a so-do-sae is a sliding crouch with both legs bent at 90 degrees, and one knee almost touching the ground. This was used by Korean at Jinju, and allowed a swordman to fight while his colleagues could fire arrows over him and at his opponent.

If you've done gumdo, you know that one of the basic moves is the gwanja-pegi, in which one cuts to the head, right wrist, left wrist, horizontally through the waist from right to left, from left shoulder to right hip, then right shoulder to left hip, and finally to the head. This move comes from Gicheon, and in it the tip of the sword spells the Korean/Chinese character for 'light'. Remember that gicheon is a religious art in which the moves spell out quotes from the Lord Buddha.

If you've done gumdo, you might have bowed to your teacher, and held you sword towards him. This comes from Chinese arts, and is not Korean, but was included because Gicheon-mun does not have a greeting that involves a sword, and no-one knows what greeting was used at Jin-ju.

So, in Haidong Gumdo we take parts from a very, very old mostly open-handed martial art formed by Buddhist monks, add in Chinese techniques, and as much as we know about the style used by Koreans in a titanic victory in 1482 or whenever.

In seitei Iaido they can name the precise path their art follows, and their ryuha is a version of an earlier one than goes back to feudal Japan.

So, not to be smart here, but we can do better things that sneer the history of othjer arts-especially when the history of our own art is so murky.

[SamuelRiv]

Just to be clear, I'm not sneering at the history of any art. Seitei is lucky to have a recorded lineage, but I was using its recent formulation to counter the assertion that everybody claims oldness of an art as a certificate authenticity - and surely seitei, as a mishmash of styles, would look pretty funny to a time-travelling samurai in spite of its lineage. While nice to imagine, we shouldn't delude ourselves into believing we are practicing authentic samurai fighting, nor that we can hold our own in a feudal battlefield. Practicing and perfecting an art, or a sport even, is never about that.

What is important in an art? I haven't thought about that much, but I'd say safety, freedom from exploitation, and the continuous drive to practice and perfect oneself, without the ability to reach perfection. If HDGD, TKD, or perhaps even Bob's Ninjitsu Shack satisfies this, then a devoted practitioner deserves respect.

[nonamehandle]

Pfft! Everybody knows the hakama is actually a korean invention from 5000 BC.

i thought it was adapted from china?? :)

maybe i am mixing things up...

[nonamehandle]

I always thought that karate as we have it now days originated from okinawa.
and only recently in history are the okinawans considered japanese.

doing martial arts of any kind does not automatically make someone competent in history. just look at HDGD people and of course our own forum...

[Chow Farn]

Yeah I don't know why HDGD said it come from this & that.

The training is certainly more of an older style martial arts though & HDGD certainly has alot in common with Chinese Traditional Kungfu.

Some of the basic stances even have the same names.
They have body conditioning exercise (no weapon) just like Kungfu.

They have two lots of forms (like traditional Kungfu)
One is sparring patterns - which is more along the line of kata.

The other 'Kumbup' (which is the most visible to the public) is just like what Kungfu call Wu-gong (Wu- Martial, Gong - Power). These forms to some degree look like fighting forms, but are more for conditioning with the low stances & focusing intent - it also allows you to train without having a partner.
Also according to 'Ki' training - when the body is low (low stances) the 'Ki' rises.
Wugong forms often give Kungfu the general public impression that is flowery ......

I've heard there are even HDGD empty hands sets - all building on the footwork & stances from basic HDGD.

I don't think its good to get too caught up with what comes from where.
I was really impressed by 'Shorinji Kempo' demo.
I thought it was Japanese only later found out - it was brought back to Japan from China after WW2.
'Shorinji' I'm told is the Japanese name for 'Shaolin' (please correct me if I'm wrong).
It doesn't matter - I am still impressed by those Japanese people that did the demo.

[ilporko]

Yeah
They have body conditioning exercise (no weapon) just like Kungfu.

They have two lots of forms (like traditional Kungfu)
One is sparring patterns - which is more along the line of kata.

The other 'Kumbup' (which is the most visible to the public) is just like what Kungfu call Wu-gong (Wu- Martial, Gong - Power).

Also according to 'Ki' training - when the body is low (low stances) the 'Ki' rises.
Wugong forms often give Kungfu the general public impression that is flowery ......

I've heard there are even HDGD empty hands sets - all building on the footwork & stances from basic HDGD.




1) Conditioning. Yes. All moves can be done with or without the sword.

2) Wu-gong (news to me) sounds to me like it's Gicheon, or divine power. One-person sword-forms. I disagree that it's the most visible to the public, as everyone I've spoken to who knew what HDGD is has heard of the sparring or gyeok-gum, and most people-even on this forum- don't know that there are two types of forms in HDGD, one of which does not involve an opponent.

3) Gi training. I disagree that HDGD interprets this as a low stance. Energy is focused on the danden and brought towards the mouth, where it is expelled in kihap, just like in kiai in kendo. So the energy rises as the gumdoin rises.

All in all a good comment on gumdo. Thanks.

[Chow Farn]

Wugong is a 'type' of training - found in some Kungfu systems.
Its the mixture of 'Wushu' (martial movements) & 'Ki-gong' (leading the Ki) - Hence Wugong is for developing martial power.

This clip is from the Kunlun school http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=97tX3zXVStQ which I have trained.
The form is designed for mixing the body power with the dantian power. When you are doing the form there are a lot of mental training - imaging leading 'ki' from one section to another.

A lot of Chinese training hold low stances to bring up the 'Ki'.
Try it yourself - hold a low horse stance as long as you can - thighs parallel to the ground & see if that makes your temperature rise.

The 'Ki' is trained to run from the Dantain up the spine & back down the front of your body to the Dantain. This is know as the 'small heavenly circle', once you have established this, its the start of real internal training.

The style 'Xingyiquan' an internal art have a posture call 'Santi' (it isn't super low) which the the foundation of the internal training.

Kihap & Kiai - is just one method of bringing up Ki.
Full internal styles do not or hardly 'Kiai' or 'Kihap' at all.
Meditation is another 'Ki' building exercise - no noise ............. you can also achieve the 'small heavenly circle' though this method also.

I need to explain myself about the forms.
Kumbup: is a solo forms which everybody regularly sees on youtube.
It is this style of training I compared to Wugong, as you are visualising an opponent & conditioning your body with the movements.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ai-IYKajw

Gyeok-gum: Is not just free fighting, it contains 15 (I think?) forms/patterns/Kata/bon & is always done in pairs.
It is practised the same way as Kendo kata.
The only clip I can find is mid way through this clip (about 45 sec).
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IC9N17w3jlM - I suggest you turn down the music.

Yes - Gumdo share heaps with Gicheon.
I've seen a Gicheon DVD & they have the same training with stances - with & without the sword.

[Fonsz]

The tameshi giri in the last one looks impressive. Pretty girl wielding a sword.
I can understand the attraction here. Nice.

[Chow Farn]

As far as 'Ki' training: you must have a good experienced teacher who can understand the phases your body goes through.

Its takes around 3 years to achieve 'The small heavenly circle'.
Once that has established - it then said it takes another 10 years to achieve 'The grand heavenly circle'.

Only then can say you truly have internal power !