Smoked Shinai: What's the deal

[Kenzan]

I'm thinking of buying some smoked Dobari Shinai.
I understand that the "smoked" quality is supposed to provide better stregnth.
Is this true?
What's you opinion of the Smoked bamboo, and is there any special care I need to give them?

[michaelm]

I'd like to know your experiences with this, too. Just went through 2 brand frickin' new shinai in as many days.
If smoked/bio shinai are stronger, it might be more cost-effective in the long run.

[Kenzan]

I have the same problem.
I always buy the El-cheapo Shinai, and I'm still trying to get the whole "How much to oil" it thing down.
I'm going through them at about one a month, and it's getting unacceptable to my budget.
I'm hoping by getting a Dobari I can possibly eliminate the issue if it technique related, but I'm not convinced that the more exprensive bamboo is any better than the cheap brands.

Carbon fiber is out of the question due to cost, and I heard that this may not be the best anyway.

[bobdonny]

Smoked bio wont help with either of yer usage. When ye make them last 6-12 months each then smoked bio will help. And Yes they are like a cheap dudes carbon shinai ;)

[NigelSponge]

if you are going through so many shinais, i'd try and change something in your kendo before changing your shinai. I always get the cheap shinai, they usually last me several months, and the few times i've gotten the more pricey shinai (from a legit bogu shop in japan at that) those didn't last any longer, sometimes shorter. I don't oil my shinai either, i keep it splinter free and the himo tight, and that is about it.
Of course you know your kendo and your body, if you think your shinai breakage rate would be taken care of with a different shinai then i can't say anything against it :)

[DCPan]

BTW, smoked shinai does not equal bio-shinai.

Bio-shinai is actually resin-impregnated, if I read the ad correctly from my kendo nippon ad back in the late 80s early 90s.

From my experience, the smoked shinai are more brittle and feels more balanced, but not as durable if you like to hit doh a lot. Conversely, it doesn't dry out as much.

So, depends on what you want I guess.

[Kenzan]

From my experience, the smoked shinai are more brittle and feels more balanced, but not as durable if you like to hit doh a lot. Conversely, it doesn't dry out as much.


Interesting.
So am I to understand that moisture retention, not strength is the key benefit of the smoked brands?

[Neil Gendzwill]

The bio-shinai break, too. If you're breaking one a month, maybe time to check out your technique.

[Kenzan]

The bio-shinai break, too. If you're breaking one a month, maybe time to check out your technique.

I'm positive my technique has the lion's share of the issue.
I also suspect I'm not taking care of my Shinai properly.

So would you say that the Smoked Shinai has no larger benefit over the basic models?

[JSchmidt]

I'm positive my technique has the lion's share of the issue.
I also suspect I'm not taking care of my Shinai properly.


Even with minimal care, I still get at least 2 months out of a cheap shinai, practicing 2-3 times a week.

[Kenzan]

Even with minimal care, I still get at least 2 months out of a cheap shinai, practicing 2-3 times a week.

I'm wondering if the dryness here may play some part.

[Neil Gendzwill]

So would you say that the Smoked Shinai has no larger benefit over the basic models?Never used one, can't say.

I'm wondering if the dryness here may play some part.May be, but I highly doubt it's any dryer where you are than here in the winter time. -30 C has a habit of sucking all the moisture out of the air.

[JSchmidt]

It wont help, for sure, but even a basic coat of oil should extend it beyond 1 month....unless you are using really nasty cheap ones.
I bought a couple of Aoi's $26US shinais (http://www.budo-aoi.com/kendo/shinai/01_tadayoshi.asp) when I moved over here and while it's been pretty dry here (and my belongings, along with the shinai maintenance stuff has arrived yet from the UK), I've yet to wear through the first one and that's with no maintenance at all, apart from tightening it up regularly and checking for cracks/splinters (none sofar).
Maybe get your teacher to check that you aren't whacking the mengane, etc?

[Neil Gendzwill]

You think Vancouver's dry? Wow. It's so much more moist than here - you can especially feel the difference if you wear contacts.

[1stdan]

I have a smoked Shinai that i use about every other class. I dont notice any real difference in feel other than the smoked one i lighter. But that is just because its a bit smaller in diameter. The smoked shinai looks a little cooler because it has some different color wood. I think the big difference is that the smoking process makes it a little tougher. It also has a nice aroma when doing suburi. It smells like a campfire........and maybe a little like bacon.

[Kenzan]

I'll bet I'm cutting too deep.
I'll ask my Sensei about it.
Thank you kindly for all the input thus far!

[JSchmidt]

You think Vancouver's dry? Wow. It's so much more moist than here - you can especially feel the difference if you wear contacts.

This summer has been pretty dry..it's changing fast now, though :(

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'll bet I'm cutting too deep.Either you are hitting mengane a lot or you are hitting too hard, or both. Of course there could be lots of reasons why you are doing those things, but the end result is that.

Next time you get a new shinai, check it after the first practice. Look for dents along the bottom edges of the two side staves. If there's a couple dents, probably OK. But if there are lots of dents, then you are hitting the mengane too much.

[nebosuke]

Bio shinai give a feel somewhere between regular bamboo and carbon graphite. Basically they feel half crappy from vibration. The smoking just makes it smell like you've got bacon bits hidden somewhere.

[Kenzan]

Either you are hitting mengane a lot or you are hitting too hard, or both. Of course there could be lots of reasons why you are doing those things, but the end result is that.

Next time you get a new shinai, check it after the first practice. Look for dents along the bottom edges of the two side staves. If there's a couple dents, probably OK. But if there are lots of dents, then you are hitting the mengane too much.

Thanks for that.
I'm at the stage in my training where I am begging to focus and develop Kime and Tenouchi.
Most notably, I am really starting to appreciate the sound and feel of my cuts when they go in properly, especially during Waza.
I.e.; How the "POP" feels and sounds as it should, so to speak.

My strength appears more and more to be a liability in this regard.

[JoDuncan]

On the receiving end of a smoked bamboo shinai, i found that it made my eyes sting like buggery.

Had to try extra hard not to get hit on the head ;)

[Super Kodachi2]

I ordered two smoked shinai from Sankei and they should arrive anytime now.

I'll let you know what they are like when I use them.

As to durability I'm not sure. I ordered them because they look cool and I wanted some badboy Shinai!

[Paburo]

its funny cause i thought kenzan squirrel king was ridiculously tall? do you really hit too much mengane?

i'm average slightly on the tall side, and with small guys and most girls sometimes i have to make an effort not to hit them too much on the top further part of the men pad! (that area is dangerously close/near the unprotected back of the head too...). plus, there stings i heard... specially if too much tip/kensen is involved... not too harmful for your shinai though :D

i've only used/borrowed smoked shinai once, but i personally cant really feel respect for a sword that smells like bacon!! :D :D i'm sticking to kendoshop's el-cheapo which basically for me last the very same (3-4 months) as fancy expensive hachidan japanese shinai....

[bullet08]

been using e-bogu smoked shinai for awhile. i usually order two at a time. one of them always break within a week or two. other one usually last me about 6 months or more.

i don't oil my shinai very often. and when i do, it's light coating of heated veggie oil inside of the shinai. when i shave off the bamboo for whatever reason, i also coat it with heated veggie oil.

i like e-bogu smoked shinai. they feel light and well balanced, both dobari and koto shinai. i tried few of other vendors shinai, but they just didn't feel right in my hands.

pete

[bobdonny]

Breaking shinai these days, for me, comes mostly from beginners hitting to hard during kirikaeshi. Also look how hard people in your club hit generally

[enkorat]

I've pretty much been using E-bogu Bio shinai exclusively since around the time I was a ikkyu/shodan or so. I've owned and used their chokuto, koto, and dobari style bio-shinais, and I've pretty much settled on the chokuto model.

At first I bought it because the marketing said that they last longer. After using them for several years, I'm somewhat doubtful that they last longer because they're stronger. I can believe that they last longer because they resist flucutations in temperature and humidity changes.

I own and use them now because I like them and they are consistent in weight and balance across different shinais of the same model, and for "premium" shinai, they're not as expensive as some others.

Some observations from using them and watching other people use and break them.

This one guy in our club was nicknamed the "destroyer" because he would literally break a shinai within one practice. Once at a tournament, he bought a shinai, fought a match, and broke the shinai. Having bought a Bio shinai thinking that it was stronger, he promptly broke it within a day.

We (a bunch of us) traced his problem by looking at his technique and looking at the break pattern across 5-6 shinais to faulty distancing in his doh strike, and hitting with a remarkable amount of force at the same time.

So I don't think Bio shinai are really any "stronger" than normal shinai, particularly if you have an error in your waza. This is also bourne out of my own experience.

Right now I practice 3 times a week for about 5-6 hours total. A slat on a Bio shinai will fail at the 2-3 month mark for me, and I normally replace it now.

Although the marketing says that the shinai is "impregnated", after looking at a bunch of broken slats, my observation that its more correct to say that the slats are "coated". The resin doesn't penetrate very far into the interior, and the interior is bone dry. So your left with a more rigid coating and a dry flexible interior.

The break pattern on Bio shinais are different. In my hands they are more likely to suffer a complete catastrophic failure (they can shatter), often on the backside of the slat, because the resin in the front keeps the slat together. Also, cracks tend to appear under the leather tip, and thats normally hidden.

So what I normally do now is watch for normal signs of wear (splinters on the sides), and then I regularly take it apart and look on the backside of the slats and on the tip of the slats. On the advice of a sensei, I then sand the splinter, and then take a white candle, rub the wax into the left over "divot" in the slat and melt it with flame.

I don't soak the slats in oil anymore since that doesn't work on the unblemished resin surface, and doing so once its been sanded and part of the resin coating has been comprimised on one area of the slat makes me think that the oil would seep in only partially into the slat, leaving some areas in the interior dry.

My experience is that they break because I'm using them, not because its been particularly cold and dry that day. Are they any less time consuming for maitenance? Maybe a little, but I don't think so.

[Toecutter]

On the advice of a sensei, I then sand the splinter, and then take a white candle, rub the wax into the left over "divot" in the slat and melt it with flame.


That's an excellent write up, out of curriosity what is the purpose of putting wax on the divot where the splinter once was?

[Kenzan]

its funny cause i thought kenzan squirrel king was ridiculously tall? do you really hit too much mengane?


Though I am tall, I suffer from a problem of which I have only recently started to make progress on; taking too small of steps.
I suppose this habit is a holdover from training on other arts.
If we are speaking in terms of small Waza, I am naturally blessed with remarkably blinding speed and reach in this regard.
However, I don't believe at this point in my training that a focus on small Waza will lead to nothing except poor habits later on.
My task currently is to work on my Big men, and for this I must learn to take proper steps. On this, I am too slow, and I still do not perform it properly. Maai is also an issue.




We (a bunch of us) traced his problem by looking at his technique and looking at the break pattern across 5-6 shinais to faulty distancing in his doh strike, and hitting with a remarkable amount of force at the same time.


I suspect this may also be an underlying cause of the early demise of my equipment.

[Fonsz]

I have one E-bogu smoked shinai. It breaks just as fast as other expensive shinai. The cheapest shinai from China last me the longest. I had one for nearly a year before I took it apart to sand it and stuff. The only plus side of the smoked ones is that they smell nice. But you could buy beef jerky or something if smell's all you're after........:confused2:hurt:

[ChaShu]

"Smoked Shinai: What's the deal?"

Adds to the flavour... :D

I've been using them for about two years now and have only had to give up on one of them. I like to use the dobari ones for shiai, but I also find that my basic, everyday practice ones (dobari and koto) last just as long, but I maintain them regularly and rotate their use during keiko.

[NigelSponge]

Breaking shinai these days, for me, comes mostly from beginners hitting to hard during kirikaeshi. Also look how hard people in your club hit generally

to add to that, constant shinai breakage may also be a result of blocking too much.

[JSchmidt]

Breaking shinai these days, for me, comes mostly from beginners hitting to hard during kirikaeshi. Also look how hard people in your club hit generally

Deflect it, don't block. If they are really mashing through, the use the top third of your shinai to (softly) catch their shinai at the base and you can control the impact much better.

[Hanmi]

My understanding is that the smoked shinai do not last longer. I user the cheapy $20 practice shinai from e-bogu. I have one that hs lasted for 2 years! I just keep tightening them, sanding them, and oiling them (not necessarily in that order). When a slat breaks, I replace it from "the pile" of broken and discarded old soldiers.

The more maintenaince, he longer they will last.

[Fonsz]

My understanding is that the smoked shinai do not last longer. I user the cheapy $20 practice shinai from e-bogu. I have one that hs lasted for 2 years! I just keep tightening them, sanding them, and oiling them (not necessarily in that order). When a slat breaks, I replace it from "the pile" of broken and discarded old soldiers.

The more maintenaince, the longer they will last.
Funny, the more I treat them "right" with tender loving care the easier they start to break. :confused:

[Toecutter]

I've asked a guy who had one about it. His comment was it wasn't worth the extra money. I seem to have luck with cheapos rather than anything good. Paid top dollar for handmade one thinking it would last longer, broke it within a month. Meantime I've had cheapos that have lasted as long as 5 to 6 months.

[michaelm]

This was the last of my cheap Eguchi shinai. (Too bad US distribution is no more.)
In terms of balance and weight, I've had better luck and consistency with eguchi shinai compared to the similarly priced e-bogu ones (Easier to make "Franken-shinais").
I can generally make them last at least 3 months with 1-2 practices/week. Just frustrating that this last week I went through a fluke breaking streak.

I think I'm going to try the practice Aoi shinais. I've been happy with their other products so far.

[mark]

I've asked a guy who had one about it. His comment was it wasn't worth the extra money. I seem to have luck with cheapos rather than anything good. Paid top dollar for handmade one thinking it would last longer, broke it within a month. Meantime I've had cheapos that have lasted as long as 5 to 6 months.

When you buy a more expensive shinai you are mainly paying for the better feel, balance, and consistency of a given brand.

Only, Mandake, bio, and smoked specialty shinais are said to last longer.

[LarsCW]

Kenzan, I'm rather tall myself. I've noticed that when I didnt stretch my arms when striking men I'd be hitting the men constantly.

Because I, especially duting the first 2 year, hit pretty soft I didn't break much.

Over time as I became more confident I noticed I started to hit harder.

I've gotten a dobari koban from tozando, I haven't practised with it just some suburi at home.

The feel is really nice and i could understand that someone would feel more confident to try tsuki as you can just single handed trust due to the oval hand.

The other nice part about this shinai is that it has only the bottom part which is oval and the top part which is round. This gives you more controll at the bottom and the normal feel with your right hand.

This is Tozando's smoked dobari
http://www.tozandoshop.com/Smoked_Bamboo_Dobari_Shinai_FURINKAZAN_p/008-ks13.htm

This is the koban dobari which I have
http://www.tozandoshop.com/Deluxe_Dobari_Oval_Grip_Shinai_Size_39_p/001-ks23.htm

[enkorat]

That's an excellent write up, out of curriosity what is the purpose of putting wax on the divot where the splinter once was?

His exact words were, "if you don't do something like that, it will start to resplinter immediately"

I said "really?" and looked at my shinai.

I went home and did so the next time, and did it, and it worked pretty well. It ends up "sealing" the splinter a bit because it isn't a lot of wax, it ends up being a fairly light coating. Seems to keep resplintering down a bit.

[Toecutter]

When you buy a more expensive shinai you are mainly paying for the better feel, balance, and consistency of a given brand.


The only difference is quality control and balance? I thought the more expensive ones were made from a higher grade bamboo and would hold up better. That would explain why it didn't last very long though.

[Kenzan]

This is Tozando's smoked dobari
http://www.tozandoshop.com/Smoked_Bamboo_Dobari_Shinai_FURINKAZAN_p/008-ks13.htm

This is the koban dobari which I have
http://www.tozandoshop.com/Deluxe_Dobari_Oval_Grip_Shinai_Size_39_p/001-ks23.htm

Mouth Watering.
The more I learn about the Dobari, the more I want one.
I've got a local seller who has a good price on just the naked slats, so I'll have fun putting it together as well.

[ShinKenshi]

I've got one very similar to the well smoked one's at Boguzen
http://www.boguzen.com/b_sword_kunchiku.html

I've used it only a handful of times but the balance is phenomenal. It definitely gives you the feel of moving much faster. As far as durability goes, I haven't got a single dent in any of the slats but again, haven't used it for that long so not really much I can say in terms of overall strength and durability.

[mark]

The only difference is quality control and balance? I thought the more expensive ones were made from a higher grade bamboo and would hold up better. That would explain why it didn't last very long though.

Some of the more expensive shinais are also made with mandake which is said to be younger better shinai bamboo. The mandake shinais are said to last longer. In addition, more expensive shinais are frequently prepared before they are sold (oiled & edges sanded down) and are less likely to have spent significant time drying out in a container somewhere. If you don't prepare & maintain your shinais properly the more expensive ones might last a little longer.
In my case, even the cheapos last a really long time, an average of 6 months per slat. Even the most expensive shinais come in at less than 5 cents per practice.

[LarsCW]

Mouth Watering.
The more I learn about the Dobari, the more I want one.
I've got a local seller who has a good price on just the naked slats, so I'll have fun putting it together as well.

Tozando puts it together when you selects a set and allows you to choose the color of tsuru too.

The shinai from chiba cost more but they are fully furbished which makes them cheaper.

So if if you need a fully furbished shinai you can also email chiba for some advise with what type of shinai you're looking for.

They have an excelent customer service.

[John Seavitt]

His comment was it wasn't worth the extra money.

My impression with the smoked bamboo was always that it was an aesthetic, not structural, treatment. There's a long history of smoked bamboo in artistic purposes, such as chashaku (chado tea scoops) and whatnot. Sure looks nice ...

John

[Signatus]

Hello all!

After reading this post and replys i can't stop remenbering one thing my Art Teacher said once:

"It's better to draw with a cheap pen than a expensive one... What metters is what your hand can do with it"

Perhaps you should check your waza first.

You may buy a Porche or a Ferrari.... don't make you a good driver if you can't handle the car!!...

I think that the Key point here is "how" you handle it (and everyone else too) sow that one shinai lasts longer and other don't.

Remember... Many duels that Musashi won were with wood stiks agaist real swords.... one time he even used a oar from a boat.
The result was the same... he won!

[kendogrl]

Hello all!

After reading this post and replys i can't stop remenbering one thing my Art Teacher said once:

"It's better to draw with a cheap pen than a expensive one... What metters is what your hand can do with it"

Perhaps you should check your waza first.

You may buy a Porche or a Ferrari.... don't make you a good driver if you can't handle the car!!...

I think that the Key point here is "how" you handle it (and everyone else too) sow that one shinai lasts longer and other don't.

Remember... Many duels that Musashi won were with wood stiks agaist real swords.... one time he even used a oar from a boat.
The result was the same... he won!

I love it, and strongly believe it as well.

[Scharnhorst]

Remember, "Musashi" is a novel!

And wood sticks sounds like something harmless. It was more to a club, very heavy and hard sticks that can crush bones!

[Bucho]

Kenzan, where are you getting your shinai?

[Kenzan]

Kenzan, where are you getting your shinai?

No surprise,
I get them from whomever I find has the best price offering.

Sometimes, It's Eiguchi, sometimes, E-bogu, and sometimes a local dealer.

Once, I even bought a few from Chinatown.

[ahmed61086]

I agree with the opinon, that if you are breaking shinia very often, getting a smoked shinai or carbon is realy not teh solution, because it means you aren't striking correctly in teh first place.

I was breaking a lot of shinia a couple years ago, So i bought a carbon and broke it in 6 months. Now I fixed my technique and shiniai have been lasting months now.

[Shinsengumi77]

I have been using ebogu's chokuto-style bio shinai, "kamakura" for the past 7 months or so, and it's been really good so far. I think I only remember a few tiny splinters on the sides throughout it's use; it seems very durable. But my only experience with shinai are ebogu's standard ones and the Kamakura one, so I'm definitely not the best person to talk to. Even with that being said, I'm very happy with this particular bio shinai.

[easye]

I orderd some from Aoi I like the look of them

E

[kanyil]

This issue was extensively discussed a few years back but I think that thread has since sunk out of sight. Here's a recap.

Of course bad technique is the number 1 shinai killer. But assuming sound technique, based on my own experience, observations and discussions with shinai sellers:

1. More expensive shinais do not necessarily last longer. In fact often times they can be more fragile. They are mostly meant for competition so are not meant for everyday bashing. Think scalpel as opposed to machete.

2. Matake bamboo generally offers better balance, but is not necessarily better in terms of sturdiness. In fact, Taiwanese/Chinese bamboo (which is now used for most (including some higher-end) shinais) is biologically sturdier.

[Super Kodachi2]

I agree with kanyil.

Recently I ordered some smoked shinai and it broke in the first practice. Given the high cost and the wait for it to be hand made/delivered, I was far from happy.

Bare in mind that I am a 4th Dan and it broke at a National Squad camp, so it wasn't an issue of bad tenouchi or heavy use receiving kirikaeshi or kaeshi from beginners.

It's the last time I buy a smoked shinai, I find that the cheap shinai I bought in Korea have lasted me really well.

Higher price and Japanese bamboo like kanyil said is often more fragile than cheaper Chinese/Taiwanese bamboo.