Kendo in Japan vs the rest of the planet

[Gessho]

After class tonight we went out for drinks and of course discussed kendo. Tonight's subject was the difference between "sport kendo" and "traditional kendo."

My sensei (he's a 7-dan) said that there has to be a sport or competitive aspect to kendo in order to test yourself and build waza.

However, the difference between the two was that, at a certain point in one's kendo development, competitions teach you all that you can learn and as you age, you need to develop your mental skills as well as maintain your physical ones. Hence the transition to what one could classify as "traditional kendo."

On that note, my sensei went on to say that he felt that more and more clubs in the West (North America, Europe, and Korea) focus on the competition and focus less on kendo as part of character development, especially ones that operate on a for-profit basis.

He went on to say that he felt there was a growing gulf between kendo in Japan and kendo in the rest of the world.

I had just finished reading Alex Bennett's excellent piece on kendo from 2001 (The Black Ships) so this conversation was quite interesting for me.

Taking this all in, what do you all think?

[Martin (Wakey)]

We had this conversation in the pub last night too. How weird. Most of it went over my head so I'll shut up now.

[Kenshi]

Taking this all in, what do you all think?

This is an incredibly interesting topic to me..... but I wont chime in until later.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I respect your sensei's opinion immensely but I don't understand what he said. In Japan there's a huge focus on competition especially at the younger ages. Here there are many clubs whose access to competition is limited and whose membership tends to be older and less competitive both in ability and attitude. I'm also wondering where all these for-profit dojo are lurking about.

[DCPan]

Taking this all in, what do you all think?

In terms of my experience in Taiwan vs. America, I certainly find it more amusing that "character development" is talked about WAY MORE here in the US.

It's one thing talking about character development in the 2nd dojo (as you and your sensei did), it's quite another to just talk about it.

I'm almost of the stance that talking about "character development" is detrimental to "character development", as the effect of the "head feint" ala Randy Pausch (see his last lecture) would filter the experience of what you are really learning with what you think you should get out of this.

YMMV.

[turboyoshi]

I think that as long as young people are involved, there has to be a sporting element to help motivate them to work hard and I don't think this is different in any part of the world. As these people get older and realize the deeper aspects of kendo, their focus shifts. I think this also happens everywhere, not just Japan. It's a human nature thing, not a culture thing, imo.

And, if anything, there's less emphasis on kendo as a sport in the US. At least, in the year I've been doing this, I haven't seen much opportunity to compete.

I also don't know about these for profit kendo dojos in the US. Your sensei's impressions may be skewed a bit.

Despite the constant ninjer hunting some folks on here do, there aren't many for profit kendo dojos in the US. Do a google search for kendo in your state. Most if not all the links on the first page will probably be legitimate, as least that's what I got for both GA and WA and the fees for the dojos listed don't look high enough to generate much, if any, profit.
So, at least for web presence, legit kendo has the wannabes beat.

sean

[Gessho]

I respect your sensei's opinion immensely but I don't understand what he said. In Japan there's a huge focus on competition especially at the younger ages. Here there are many clubs whose access to competition is limited and whose membership tends to be older and less competitive both in ability and attitude. I'm also wondering where all these for-profit dojo are lurking about.

In my neck of the woods I am told (meaning I haven't seen it myself) that there are two (one a kendo club the other a kumdo club) so not sure if that constitutes a "horde" of for-profit clubs.

[James]

Japanese kendoka in London: "When I ask people why they do kendo they always say things like it's good for my character - it's a release from work - I want to balance my life -　etc.
Me: "Well, er why do you do kendo?"
Jk: " I want to win!"



He went on to say that he felt there was a growing gulf between kendo in Japan and kendo in the rest of the world...
Taking this all in, what do you all think?

I would say the divide between kendo in Japan vs the rest of the world should be getting smaller. Practically there is more and better translated information, an increase in the amounts of foreign kendoka having actual experience and knowledge of training in Japan.

As foreign kendo renmei get older there is the chance of differences in focus becoming more pronounced over the years. Such as kyu grading ranks are more rigourously observed amongst adult practitioners in Germany. I know dojos in Europe whose practice of kata is more regular/solid than comparably sized Japanese dojos.

As for character building, I believe there are some cultural contexts: If parents in a school in the West were told that their kids would have to clean the school toilets and corridors at break and lunchtimes - would it be considered child labour, punishment? In Japan it is part of a group activity considered 'Moral Education'.
Character building in Kendo at an early age (5-6yrs) is part of belonging to that group and doing your best within it, more than any budo spirituality. The same if you are in the baseball team. From elementary school onwards the main focus of kendo is gaining technique and shiai. There are talks about respecting the shinai as a katana, but 'traditional' benefits are not overstated as they are part of the culture and generally understood. People often single out reigi as one of the special important aspects missing from other sports - however here reigi is evident in everyday formal situations outside of budo.
Until University I would say that competition/sport kendo combined with social bonding is the dominant focus.
After University people often quit due to work commitments, being burnt out, or if they are hardcore by then , get a kendo - related job, Police, PE Teacher etc.
People continuing kendo but retiring from Shiai often talk about it being time for them to change to more 'correct' kendo, as part of a natural progression. This is the time in the kendo journey that people are starting to look more to understanding 'tradition'.
One thing that did surprise me was meeting quite a few adult beginners here (started with their children, switched when specific karate/judo injuries retired them from continuing in those sports, returned after many years absence). These people are, like in the West, more focused on tradition or the big picture.

I would say the sport focus is a certain natural stage of the kendo journey in Japan, and to contradict your sensei, I would say this is less so in the West where many adult beginners tend to have a minimum involvement in competition, through lack of opportunity or various philosophies.
All this just my opinion.
I have no knowledge of for-profit dojos.

There are differences to kendo in Japan, but best understood first hand.

[Kenzan]

On that note, my sensei went on to say that he felt that more and more clubs in the West (North America, Europe, and Korea) focus on the competition and focus less on kendo as part of character development, especially ones that operate on a for-profit basis.


And this was based on the predilection of what, do you suppose, exactly?

[bobdonny]

After class tonight we went out for drinks and of course discussed kendo. Tonight's subject was the difference between "sport kendo" and "traditional kendo."

My sensei (he's a 7-dan) said that there has to be a sport or competitive aspect to kendo in order to test yourself and build waza.

However, the difference between the two was that, at a certain point in one's kendo development, competitions teach you all that you can learn and as you age, you need to develop your mental skills as well as maintain your physical ones. Hence the transition to what one could classify as "traditional kendo."

On that note, my sensei went on to say that he felt that more and more clubs in the West (North America, Europe, and Korea) focus on the competition and focus less on kendo as part of character development, especially ones that operate on a for-profit basis.

He went on to say that he felt there was a growing gulf between kendo in Japan and kendo in the rest of the world.

I had just finished reading Alex Bennett's excellent piece on kendo from 2001 (The Black Ships) so this conversation was quite interesting for me.

Taking this all in, what do you all think?

I think your sensei is correct there is a big difference between europe and Japan. But I understand for the most part, western kendoka's do kendo more for the budo aspect, whereas Japanese (for the most part i.e. junior under yon dan grades) do it for sport.

[whosesoever]

Perhaps the said Sensei is referring to the gap in access of Kendo theoretical knowledge. I imagine that the volume of Kendo knowledge of great masters and the commentaries of them would be written in Japanese or Korean. These works have yet to be translated into English, and even if they are translated, their spirit would have been lost in translation.

Undoubtedly, the spirituality of Kendo in Japan/Korea would have been shaped by these great works and commentaries. On the other hand, the spirituality that we have quasi-access to, by way of Japanese/Korean Senseis, translated works, etc... is limited. Like the study of any art, the richness of our experience is related to the richness of our surroundings.

I have no doubt that in the future, the volume of theoretical literature on Kendo would improve as the population and experience of the international Kendo increases. And then, a different international Kendo culture with different expressions and tastes will come about.

These inferences are based upon my experience with the practice and literature of Zen Buddhism. The literature of Zen Buddhism and its commentaries is immense. And it is these commentaries that have a big spiritual impact upon my experience with Zen Buddhism. Having access to them in three different languages, one of them being English, I experience each differently; each having its own distinct expressions, depending on the context of each.

Nevertheless, regardless of the immense literature of Zen Buddhism, every koans, commentaries, point to the simple fact of doing, of practice. Therefore, I imagine that all of Japanese/Korean theoretical literature on Kendo also points to one thing, that is practice.

With this, we have went full circle, from the importance of the literature we have limited access to, to the importance of practice. But I cannot help but sigh and concede that blessed is the few that speaks Japanese/Koreans and have direct access to the flavor of Japanese/Korean swordsmanship.

[NigelSponge]

well from my observations of living in Japan and belonging to a high school kendobu, it would seem that all the character building and stuff is accomplished through everyday life in Japan, as a student at least. So it doesn't need to be emphasized as much in kendo. Whereas in the western society, at least in America, it's like everyone thinks they are the greatest person in the world and deserve top notch everything always, so when we come to kendo, it's this exotic feeling that we have entered another society/time period. So i think there is similar budo amounts in both japanese and western dojo, but one just notices it more.

[Josh Reyer]

This is an incredibly interesting topic to me..... but I wont chime in until later.

Tease. :wink:

[bobdonny]

well from my observations of living in Japan and belonging to a high school kendobu, it would seem that all the character building and stuff is accomplished through everyday life in Japan, as a student at least. So it doesn't need to be emphasized as much in kendo. Whereas in the western society, at least in America, it's like everyone thinks they are the greatest person in the world and deserve top notch everything always, so when we come to kendo, it's this exotic feeling that we have entered another society/time period. So i think there is similar budo amounts in both japanese and western dojo, but one just notices it more.

Very good point and perspective, ta :)

[ben]

well from my observations of living in Japan and belonging to a high school kendobu, it would seem that all the character building and stuff is accomplished through everyday life in Japan, as a student at least. So it doesn't need to be emphasized as much in kendo. Whereas in the western society, at least in America, it's like everyone thinks they are the greatest person in the world and deserve top notch everything always, so when we come to kendo, it's this exotic feeling that we have entered another society/time period. So i think there is similar budo amounts in both japanese and western dojo, but one just notices it more.

+rep added

b

[Kenshi]

Tease. :wink:

You love it :jaguar:


well from my observations of living in Japan and belonging to a high school kendobu, it would seem that all the character building and stuff is accomplished through everyday life in Japan, as a student at least.....

Are you sure your 14?

[The great I AM]

whereas Japanese (for the most part i.e. junior under yon dan grades) do it for sport.Where do you get that from? I know many people here are saying that the Japanese treat it more as a sport because they do it from childhood and the other aspects (the much vaunted "character building" - can I do that in Lego?) are part of the greater group dynamic of being in Japanese society, BUT there are HUGE amounts of people (compatrively speaking) doing kendo in Japan, and they all do it for a wide variety of reasons. At Koubukan, the dojo I go to, there are as many people that don't have a huge interest in shiai as do. Some enter if they can, for fun, but barely take it seriously if at all, others are out there to win as much as they can. It's that same at Shinjuku, where I go when I can. Plenty of people hugely serious about shiai, and just as many that aren't.

It's easy to assume that the Japanese are more "sporty" about their kendo when they are forced to do shiai as kids, and when there is much much more opportunity to enter shiai. If you want to do it, or enjoy it, and had the opportunity, why would you not? That doesn't mean they, wit their passing intereest in enjoying shiai, treat it any differently to the other people who have no interest in shiai. That of course is not to say the opposite isn't true, but look at your statement:

whereas Japanese (for the most part i.e. junior under yon dan grades) do it for sport

In japan, most "under yondan" are also children (ie under 20). How many teenagers have you ever met who do anything, ANYTHING with a competitive aspect in it at all, that DON'T want to compete? I think the answer to that is very few. And if you want to compete you want to win, right? There is nothing extra sporty about that attitude just because you apply it to kendo. I'm sure the hachidan sensei who go in to the hachidan senbatsu also want to win, as much as they want to do good kendo. After all, losing means what you do was not as good as the guy in front of you. Perhaps they built their character to lose gracefully.

Perhaps what I'm trying to say at the end of this longer than intended post is that it's not so easy to seperate people into clearly defined groups based around attitude towards kendo. Japanese or otherwise.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Are you sure your 14?

Are you sure you should be allowed to teach kids English?

[NigelSponge]

Are you sure your 14?

no. I am sure i'm 16 though
hehe:smoker:

[Kenshi]

Are you sure you should be allowed to teach kids English?

The only think im sure about is that im unsure about everything.

[bobdonny]

Perhaps what I'm trying to say at the end of this longer than intended post is that it's not so easy to seperate people into clearly defined groups based around attitude towards kendo. Japanese or otherwise.

IMO Yondan is typically the highest grade a university student can get based on age etc (without going post grad). I perhaps should have said high school up to university student.

High school kendo is fairly competitive, and in university there are usually taikai club or circle club, (both very competitive but taikai obviously more).

A lot of these students I've met (especially 3rd/4th dan) haven't/don't go to a dojo. A lot have never been, and have never had a very high grade sensei.

On Japanese girl staying with me currently is san dan, has been training for 14 years, is on 12 month college break and going back to her final year, is president of her kendo club and is super competitive. That said she has very little understanding or budo and the first time she met very senior grades 8th dan in a big group was in Europe this summer. Apparently this is normal. Her kendo is very nice and very fast but her posture is bent and some of her fundamentals are wrong and more orientated for sport.

She has very little power/strength with the left hand, all power is mostly from her right, in fact she wore out her right kote here, she uses her right hand to pull back and uses it solely for power, her right shoulder is even about 2 inches forward from her left shoulder as she strikes. When she lifts up the shinai it aint straight. Her hips are also not straight but slightly angled to the left. This makes her debanna kote and kaeshi do like a bullet!

She has what my club would consider fundamental faults (and I expect if she went to a dojo and not solely her uni club they would be picked up on there). She thought it odd how dan grades still practiced kihon and basics. She said in her club that is only for beginners and dan grades should know it, in her training they only practice gikeiko and some advanced waza, but its mostly all competitive based.

Now the above aren't really faults, her kendo is really very nice but it does go to show that in her environment she is being built for competition. Once she leaves university she would like to stop competing and find a nice dojo to join.

This is exactly the same "type" of kendo I found when I visited the universities and high schools in Fukuoka. The dojo's tho were different with proper budo / kihon kendo.

Your right tho' I am generalising, but its hard not too I dont really know enough about the subject or given it any serious thought or research so on that point I concede.

Incidentally, in a recent seminar Hirakawa (8th dan kyoshi) gave in Ireland. He likened Europe to how Japan was 40 years ago. Kendo is just begining to take off and there are not enough kendoka to be competitive so we have really good basics. He said a lot of kendo in Japan is too bendy, even at the high grades up to sixth dan. I presume he is looking at the amount of competitions and the importance that is placed on them from high school up to AJKC.

But the other thing is the Japanese seem to be more sporty in all other pursuits, they are just a sporty nation... and to be fair the west (USA and Europe) seem to be lazy and obese, so maybe its more of a cultural thing than a budo/kendo thing.

[The great I AM]

stuffAbout the sandan girl, so what? It's a phase that I would say practically every single kenshi goes through, and should go through. You don't do kendo for x years and suddenly have beautiful straight kendo, it is aquired over time. This phase is wholly important, and weather or not they get past it and develop the bigger picture of their kendo or get stuck there is individual. Even at the highest level you can see the growth of people, and if I may use Miyazaki as an imperfect example, you can see his kendo "mature" over the 10 or so years that he is in the all japans, and also by watching his grading video.

You said yourself that once she leaves Uni she'll find a nice dojo and do X. That's simply the next step in her natural evolution. At that point I'm sure "sporty" will be less important and "proper" will take the fore. Until then, who cares? She is aquiring experience and other skills that will help later (eye for ippon is HUGELY important no matter what level you are at.)

And you must be going to different places to me. I've been to a few uni's here and they get corrected all the time at the places I've seen. You simply can't generalise like that because it's not as simple to pigeon hole as you make out.

Oh, being sporty and the west? USA? Europe? According to the last olympics there were more medals for the USA, hell even Great Britain, than there was for Japan. Maybe the general population is more sporty, but like you say, thats a cultural thing.

I want to write more but I've got to go!

[bobdonny]

You said yourself that once she leaves Uni she'll find a nice dojo and do X. That's simply the next step in her natural evolution. At that point I'm sure "sporty" will be less important and "proper" will take the fore. Until then, who cares? She is aquiring experience and other skills that will help later (eye for ippon is HUGELY important no matter what level you are at.)


I get your points, I can see where you are coming from. I do feel its more a quality versus quantity point here.

Would it be fair to say that there are more kendoka doing "sporty kendo" (in high school and university at or below yondan ) than there are doing good "kihon kendo" (practicing in dojo above or at yondan)?

What would the split be? 70% sport to 30% kihon?
(I just made these up - I imagine this is the approx the split, but I suspect it may be higher on the junior side)

It would seem there are more junior kendoka doing sporty kendo, but perhaps like gibbo says the ones who count are doing kihon kendo.

Also I don’t think the competitiveness stops after UNI, if you look to the police or company dojo's?
I guess it really depends on what dojo/club you go to. So every person will have their own opinion, I'm not even sure there is info on a much broader scale. Is there even apoint in finding out?
There is just too many variables to get any clear answer (certainly not from me - I can only give my perspective and opinion)… It would be nice if someone could verify or contradict them.

Regarding the olympics, I think that is another potential generalisation.
I don’t really know enough about athletics in other countries, what I do know is that success in olympics (or success of national athletes in general) depend a great deal on national sponsorship / resources and facilities.

Its why most Irish athletes go to train and live in UK or USA, cos facilities are so good. Ye have good infastructure there (far superior to ours), for the Irish government althletics dont seem to be priority. Even our riflemen train in Italy/Middle east. Our fencer is from USA University etc. Very few of our Irish Athletes can train to Olympic level in Ireland (tho we do have athletes just not at this level)

I'm not sure how the Japanese Government pushes sport in general so I cant really comment on them.

[Knicky]

Is it just me or does the term `sporty` kendo also have that connotation as...not very good/nice/pretty/clean kendo?

I`ve seen great competitors with beautiful kendo.

Maybe thats not what we are talking about here though.

[Kent Enfield]

List of things that are "wrong"
So why are those things wrong?

My experience in Japan has been that there's a strong element of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" to the instruction. If someone isn't doing exactly textbook kihon, but either makes it work for themselves or has bigger problems to work on, they're probably not going to get corrected on it, nor would it necessarily be particularly beneficial to focus on.

Go somewhere where you get to watch kodansha go at it, like the Zen Nihon Embu Taikai in Kyoto, and count how many of the renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi are doing things you've been told not to do.

And to echo Gibbo, though I don't have any experience with university kendo, the junior and senior high clubs I've been to all have involved the sensei correcting the kids basics.


She said in her club that is only for beginners and dan grades should know it, in her training they only practice gikeiko and some advanced waza
What do you think a typical adult ("dojo") practice in Japan is like?

[bobdonny]

So why are those things wrong?


Are you serious?
A fundamental tenant of kendo is to have a nice straight posture?
Are you seriously telling me that its ok in Japan not to have good posture, and to hit incorrectly?

"if it isn't broken, don't fix it"
That’s a direct contradiction of your following point about sensei teaching basics? What is it, do sensei teach basics, or do they let you proceed with your errors if your scoring ippon?

If its the latter then its what I see as a culture of sporty kendo, if its the former I see that as kihon kendo. I see both going on in Japan, but I dont see as much sporty kendo outside of Japan and Korea.



What do you think a typical adult ("dojo") practice in Japan is like?

Thats the thing, I'm not talking about an "adult dojo". I'm explaining what I found with regards to University and high school clubs (clubs as opposed to dojo). But other than that I agree with you.

[bobdonny]

Is it just me or does the term `sporty` kendo also have that connotation as...not very good/nice/pretty/clean kendo?

I`ve seen great competitors with beautiful kendo.

Maybe thats not what we are talking about here though.

I think so,

IMO sporty kendo has the goal to win, kihon kendo has the goal to better yourself.

I think a really good kihon kendoka will win in shiai to a level, it depends on how good they are.

I think one of the main flaws of sporty kendo is the reliance on speed over seme, and tactic over mind contact / empathy.

Another flaw is knowing how to referee; knowing what is easy to score and what is difficult, also knowing what elements a referee wants to see.
Technically a sporty kendoka can learn and practice this in the dojo.

On the other hand a really good Kihon player should do these naturally.

[Kenshi]

Cmon now girls! :chinese:

[D'Artagnan]

Apparently this is normal.

hmm, I'm not sure about this.

I don't know lots about University kendo, however, I only know a bit about Fukuoka University of Education. And the students there, practice with high level sensei, and I believe that more than 30% of their practice is based around good Kihon...

It is also my understanding that, although High School kendo club members play in a lot of shiai, their everyday practice is certainly not focused away from doing correct kihon. Also, in my experience, High School kendo clubs tend to be led by School Teachers. So it certainly is a little strange that a Japanese who is living in Japan and is a keen player has never met high level sensei.

Though I suppose it depends where in Japan they are from...


This is exactly the same "type" of kendo I found when I visited the universities and high schools in Fukuoka.

This is weird, as Fukuoka is the only place I have seen kendo at these levels, and I haven't seen this attitude to practice at all...

For instance the students at Ohori Boys School have brilliant basic kendo, they are all 2nd/3rd dan, and have better 'Kihon-kendo' than any European I have seen...

Actually it pisses me off how lots of people slate high school kendo as being 'bendy' and what have you. Yes, they don't always have the best upper body posture, but they have amazing footwork, unlike 99% of westerners - it comes from hours and hours of repetitive basic practice.

[bobdonny]

Yes, they don't always have the best upper body posture, but they have amazing footwork, unlike 99% of westerners - it comes from hours and hours of repetitive basic practice.

Well this is true! I can practice till I die and I'll never be able to glide like them!

[Hanmi]

On that note, my sensei went on to say that he felt that more and more clubs in the West (North America, Europe, and Korea) focus on the competition and focus less on kendo as part of character development, especially ones that operate on a for-profit basis.

I cannot comment on Europe, Korea, or Japan for that matter, but from everything I have seen in the Midwestern U.S., and our dojo in Cleveland, I have never seen or heard of a "for profit" Kendo Dojo. I am not saying that they don't exist, but I have never heard of one. I know that other cities probably charge more dues, but that is usually because it is more expensive to do anything in those cities. We only collect enough money to cover the rent of our practice space, maintain our website and insurance, and buy some shinai in bulk to save money for the students. That's it!

In our dojo, we spend all but 15-20 minutes our of a 2 hour practice doing Kihon, and, if we have time, are have done our kihon well, we will do free practice, in 2 minutes "bursts". The emphasis being on "big" cuts (shinsa style), and doing "beautiful kendo" (a goal that I hope to someday achieve).

Attending tournaments is an afterthought, and we will do about 4 per year. We make more of an effort to attend joint practices with other dojo's.

Those of us "older" men are in it for the character development. The satisfaction of seeing myself improve over time as a result of hard work, and feedback from our Sempai & Sensei, is more satisfying than any $5.00 trophy could ever provide.

So, again, I am not sure what is going on in Europe or Korea, or even the rest of the U.S., but here in the Midwest, you can be sure that things are a bit more orthodox than may be percieved...


.

[ben]

Interesting discussion with good points on both sides.

...I don't know lots about University kendo, however, I only know a bit about Fukuoka University of Education. And the students there, practice with high level sensei, and I believe that more than 30% of their practice is based around good Kihon...

You could say the reason for this was because this is a university that trains kendo instructors, not just a university that has a kendo club which competes.

b

[D'Artagnan]

You could say the reason for this was because this is a university that trains kendo instructors, not just a university that has a kendo club which competes.

b

I'm sure that is possibly the reason,

as I said, I know a bit more about kendo in Japanese high schools (specifically schools in Fukuoka as my wife and her family went to them...) and I have only seen kendo in one Japanese University...

[Kenshi]

as I said, I know a bit more about kendo in Japanese high schools

:smoker: 　　　　　　　　　　

[Neil Gendzwill]

About the sandan girl, so what? It's a phase that I would say practically every single kenshi goes through, and should go through. You don't do kendo for x years and suddenly have beautiful straight kendo, it is aquired over time. This phase is wholly important, and weather or not they get past it and develop the bigger picture of their kendo or get stuck there is individual.Of course you don't have straight kendo instantly, but there's a difference in instruction in my understanding. According to my sensei and various other Japanese kendo people I know, there is a progression in Japan that many of us don't go through. This is the junior high/high school/college progression where the emphasis is largely on competition. The idea is, if they decide to continue kendo as an adult, at that time the sensei start to guide their kendo to a more adult style. But here many of us start as adults and the sensei immediately steer us towards adult kendo. So even though we will not be straight and correct right away, we are told right away that this is the goal and corrected when our basics are out of wack.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Just to confirm what others have said, any university club worth its salt puts a pretty heavy emphasis on kihon practice.

[Kingofmyrrh]

:smoker: 　　　　　　　　　　
Are you just trying to boost your post count with this?

[D'Artagnan]

High school kendo is fairly competitive, and in university there are usually taikai club or circle club, (both very competitive but taikai obviously more).


Sorry to chime back in,

Please, somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I belive there is a difference between a University Kendo 'Circle-Club' and an actual University Kendo-bu.

i.e. a Circle club is something privately organised between students, kind of a leisure or kendo-for-fun club, i.e. not serious* players. Where as the Kendo-bu is a more 'organised' institution, with a proper sensei, for really serious* players.


*in this sense, I mean serious as in really really serious, as in hoping to play in the All Japan Uni Taikai, and having high aspirations in kendo - becoming world champion etc.

[Kent Enfield]

Are you serious?
Absolutely. I didn't say anything was right or wrong. I asked why those things are wrong. The right way is the right way because it works better than the wrong way. If the wrong way works as well is it still wrong?


"if it isn't broken, don't fix it"
That’s a direct contradiction of your following point about sensei teaching basics? What is it, do sensei teach basics, or do they let you proceed with your errors if your scoring ippon?
The choice isn't between absolutely orthodox basics measured with a protractor and a plumbbob and basics that look like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1aNiy2i7X0). There's everything in between as well. The corrections given tend to be the ones that will give the greatest benefit if implemented. There seems to be a greater emphasis on interaction with the opponent at earlier stages, instead of focusing on purely mechanical issues.

But then I haven't seen a lot of grade school kendo here, which would cover the first six years of most people's kendo.

[The great I AM]

I get your points, I can see where you are coming from. I do feel its more a quality versus quantity point here.

Would it be fair to say that there are more kendoka doing "sporty kendo" (in high school and university at or below yondan ) than there are doing good "kihon kendo" (practicing in dojo above or at yondan)?

What would the split be? 70% sport to 30% kihon?
(I just made these up - I imagine this is the approx the split, but I suspect it may be higher on the junior side)

It would seem there are more junior kendoka doing sporty kendo, but perhaps like gibbo says the ones who count are doing kihon kendo. Honestly, how many kids clubs, high schools and unis have you practised in? I have NOT been to one that has placed an emphasis on "Sporty" kendo or winning above kihon. Every single one I've been to has done masses of kihon. Toukaidai for instance does an hour and a half of kihon in every practise I go to. A kids club in Nerima does TWO hours. Koubukan's kids club spends almost all of it's time doing kihon, I went to Nihon Taiku Dai 3 times, and guess what, another hour and a half of kihon. Way back when I went to George's place when he was stuck on the island, and to his wee kids dojo, more kihon. A sunday morning middle school practise near my wife's parents another 2 hours of kihon.


Also I don’t think the competitiveness stops after UNI, if you look to the police or company dojo's?A great deal of those places also do MASSES of kihon. The police don't just do shiai geiko all day. Some of the company dojo's don't, but others do. Depends on the company. But they also often have time after the main practise for you to do whatever kihon you like.


I guess it really depends on what dojo/club you go to. So every person will have their own opinion, I'm not even sure there is info on a much broader scale. Is there even apoint in finding out?
There is just too many variables to get any clear answer (certainly not from me - I can only give my perspective and opinion)… It would be nice if someone could verify or contradict them. Really? I've only been to one actual club (ie regularly attended place with it's own membership) that does next to no kihon, and even so, in their hour main practise they do 15 minutes, and even then there is a 40 minute free practise afterwards where you can do what you want, including practise whatever kihon you feel you need to, and people often do. The places where they seem not to do it are the keiko kai and the godo geiko. It would seem more like your sandan friends is the exception rather than the norm, but in my own limited experience, no regular normally run of the mill dojo that I have so far been to has an exclusive pattern of jigeiko only. Maybe they are there, but they're not any of the ones I've been to.


I think so,

IMO sporty kendo has the goal to win, kihon kendo has the goal to better yourself.

I think a really good kihon kendoka will win in shiai to a level, it depends on how good they are.

I think one of the main flaws of sporty kendo is the reliance on speed over seme, and tactic over mind contact / empathy.

Another flaw is knowing how to referee; knowing what is easy to score and what is difficult, also knowing what elements a referee wants to see.
Technically a sporty kendoka can learn and practice this in the dojo.

On the other hand a really good Kihon player should do these naturally.What on earth are you talking about, really. Some of the best shiai guys have awesome kihon. It's the guys with shit kihon who will get pasted by the guys that are practising their nuts of at EVERYTHING. That constant practise of kihon is what allows them to bring out anything and everything during a match, and to do it naturally. This makes them even stronger in shiai. Look at the most hardcore universities, Kokushikan, Osaka Taiku dai, Kanoya, even the ones a step below like Chuo or Hosei, you can see that they do LOADS of kihon from the way that they move.

Maybe you would then refer further back, to senior high school, where you can see some crazy shit in shiai. But then watch videos of their keiko, piles and piles of kirikaeshi, waza geiko, kakarigeiko. Sure they do shiai practise on top of that, but not as the focus.

They also get reffing practise. Some Senior high schools, and plenty of Uni's implement this into their shiai geiko. I know that budai (from talking to people who've been) do plenty. Toukaidai also does loads too.

Got anymore?


Of course you don't have straight kendo instantly, but there's a difference in instruction in my understanding. According to my sensei and various other Japanese kendo people I know, there is a progression in Japan that many of us don't go through. This is the junior high/high school/college progression where the emphasis is largely on competition. The idea is, if they decide to continue kendo as an adult, at that time the sensei start to guide their kendo to a more adult style. But here many of us start as adults and the sensei immediately steer us towards adult kendo. So even though we will not be straight and correct right away, we are told right away that this is the goal and corrected when our basics are out of wack.That I agree with, but where possible, I think that a natural progression through all the phases, gently nudged along by your teacher is best. This "sandan girl" is, to me, typical of that. It is of course much much harder for adults, but if possible I reckon it's beneficial. That all having been said, and your point also still standing, I stand by the fact that it is still something that is aquired through time, just with perhaps a different path and evolution. But ho hum, thats a (slightly?) different conversation.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Sorry to chime back in,

Please, somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I belive there is a difference between a University Kendo 'Circle-Club' and an actual University Kendo-bu.

i.e. a Circle club is something privately organised between students, kind of a leisure or kendo-for-fun club, i.e. not serious* players. Where as the Kendo-bu is a more 'organised' institution, with a proper sensei, for really serious* players.


*in this sense, I mean serious as in really really serious, as in hoping to play in the All Japan Uni Taikai, and having high aspirations in kendo - becoming world champion etc.

Yes that's basically correct, although of course there is variation. Worth noting that Bobdonny's designation of the "serious" club as a "taikai" club is incorrect - it should be "taiikukai" which means that they are the official representatives of that university's sports association (taiikukai). But as not all serious clubs use the word taiikukai in their name, even if they are the official club, it doesn't really mean they're slackers if it's not in their name. The bu/circle distinction you make is more reliable I think. Of course, there are cases, like at Tsukuba, where even their circle may have a good few members that are better than the official team players at some other unis.

[JSchmidt]

but I dont see as much sporty kendo outside of Japan and Korea.

That's because we start too old.

As for your sandan girl, can you hit her? Is your basic straight kendo capable of defeating her 'sports' kendo?

[Kenshi]

Taking this all in, what do you all think?

Although kendo outside Japan is physically getting better* I believe that the general understanding of "kendo" (and "budo") over there is at odds with what it is here. This "understanding" is based on the very different "process" by which "kendo" is aquired, and the part of the culture it exists in. It, as such, can never be (successfully?) transported outside its home environment without becoming something else.

There is a uniquely western concept of "kendo" that I believe has taken form and is still currently taking shape, and its probably right that it does so. However, it not the same "kendo" as is happening in Japan (I posit). Of-course, the meaning of "kendo" and "budo" have changed and are changing in Japan as well. Maybe there will be a time when we replace the Japanese meanings with our western concept?

This forum is evidence for the above (in fact, for examples you dont need to go further than this thread).

* Still a few generations away for most places. Dont mistake physical ability for deep understanding.

[bobdonny]

Good points George!

.
Got anymore?


Yeah, but I kinda don't want this to become a crusade on either part. You've got a very strong understanding of the way things are over there, I have a different understanding.

My understanding may be incorrect but it is my understanding from being in Japan and my dealings in Europe with Japanese.

One other point tho. At Kodokan I was in a group of about 8 having beers and chatting with Sumi Sensei and a few of the other sensei. A few questions came up about what a practice in Japan consisted of and what we should try to lead in Europe. Sumi Sensei answered as followed.


How long should practice be?
One hour to one and a half hours is fine 3 or four times per week. 2 hours in one session is pushing it slightly.

What should a practice consist of?
Practice should have a short warm-up with suburi. And then rotating keiko. Each rotation should consist of kirikaeshi, ippon shobu, Gigeiko, uchikomi, kakaraigeiko, and ippon shobu.

When asked should Kihon practise be included, Sumi sensei replied “Uchikomi keiko and kakaraigeiko is Kihon practice”.

Should kendo be different for different people or should there be one type of kendo?
Of course kendo should be different for different people. People are different ages and have different skill levels. You must be especially hard on young people but be mindful of older people’s fitness levels. Its crucial to be empathetic and understand people’s needs and limits and push them towards this but never past it, be it physical or mental etc.
You must understand your students.


Its my understanding (and the other individuals there - 2 British 7th dans, couple of 5 dans, 2 French, 1 Polish and 1 Czech), that our intrepretation of Kihon is very different to theirs. By kihon I mean specifically taking a class and working on an aspect (i.e. having the class go up and down the hall doing footwork, or hitting men 6 times in bogu and rotating etc) Sumi Sensei advocated uchikomi and kakaraigeiko as a means of continuing to teach kihon. I also expect other sensei to teach kihon in other ways.

Well at least that was our collective assumption, this was verified by the student herself. But I do take Gibbo, Kents, and Andy's (and everyone else's) on board. I'm not trying to ram home my understanding, just sharing it.


Yes that's basically correct, although of course there is variation. Worth noting that Bobdonny's designation of the "serious" club as a "taikai" club is incorrect - it should be "taiikukai" which means that they are the official representatives of that university's sports association (taiikukai). But as not all serious clubs use the word taiikukai in their name, even if they are the official club, it doesn't really mean they're slackers if it's not in their name. The bu/circle distinction you make is more reliable I think. Of course, there are cases, like at Tsukuba, where even their circle may have a good few members that are better than the official team players at some other unis.

Thats a very good point, thanks. Also tho, the Circle members train 3 times per week, the "taiikukai" train up to 8 times per week. The Circle club (of which she is president) is very very strong, and are region champions. Circle are also pushed to compete but not to the same level.



As for your sandan girl, can you hit her? Is your basic straight kendo capable of defeating her 'sports' kendo?

Yes, recently I met her in a final of a team tournament (at the kodokan seminar) and I won, the match was ref'd by 3 hachidans so I am happy with the quality of win.

[H.Sandsleth]

Interesting to hear what Sumi sensei says about practise, thanks for posting it.

[The great I AM]

Yeah, but I kinda don't want this to become a crusade on either part. You've got a very strong understanding of the way things are over there, I have a different understanding. Hardly a crusade, but it seems that you are basing your understanding on what a few people have told you, and that has built up a false impression of what actually happens in Japan. You have have been to one or two places, but (and I'm not trying to claim to be an experienced old journeyman veteran here)I may have only been here for just over a year, but I have not once seen a dojo of the sort that you have described previously.

Additionally, most of the sensei I've practised with all use uchikomi and kakarigeiko as teaching tools. In almost all practises I've been to at regular dojos (ie not keiko kai etc) it takes a regular part of every practise. I've never been to a keiko with kihon geiko that has NOT included uchikomi geiko and / or kakarigeiko. You would probably be surprised with the general consistency in most regular dojo practises.

In addition, you should think that in your conversation with Sumi sensei, he more than likely understood that his word would have been taken as gospel by the listeners, so gave you an answer that will help you out the most. Especially with regards to "what we should try to lead in Europe". I guess so, anyway. He's a bright fella.

[bobdonny]

In addition, you should think that in your conversation with Sumi sensei, he more than likely understood that his word would have been taken as gospel by the listeners, so gave you an answer that will help you out the most. Especially with regards to "what we should try to lead in Europe". I guess so, anyway. He's a bright fella.

Its difficult to take it back to a club (in europe anyway), and think about the value of kihon keiko (as we do it) and should we change to kihon keiko (as Sumi advised).
We are reluctant to change and are currently trying to work in a balance of our way (historically) and the way we were advised (by sandan girl and sumi sensei).
It did help tho that a major part of the seminar was on how to perform (/ and teach with) uchikomi (3 types) and kakaraikeiko correctly.


but it seems that you are basing your understanding on what a few people have told you, Thats life, now I guess I can base my understanding on what a few more people told me :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

That I agree with, but where possible, I think that a natural progression through all the phases, gently nudged along by your teacher is best. This "sandan girl" is, to me, typical of that.Most of the people we've had through that learned as school kids in Japan rely to a certain extent on pure athleticism. This is not to say they don't have good basics, but more often than not they will beat you on speed rather than tactics. Or maybe at the pace they're used to, the points are hanging off us old slow guys like ripe cherries.

Anyways, the impression I get from my instructors is not that they are not taught kihon because it seems they most certainly are, but rather that to a certain extent they are allowed to use that youthful speed and energy and not judged too harshly for some stuff that we would regard as less than ideal kendo. Later on if they're still around, they get straightened out. We don't have that kind of time, our kendo careers are comparatively short.

[D'Artagnan]

they will beat you on speed rather than tactics...

Personally I also think that this speed comes, only partly from their age, but mainly from their better footwork... Hence they can't piss all over 60 yr old 8th dans (who have exceptional footwork).

I personally, have never seen a "high graded" (5th dan+) westerner with footwork* as good as a good 2nd or 3rd dan high school player.

*by 'footwork' I mean stong fumikomi, with good reach and fast hikitsuke-ashi etc.

[JSchmidt]

Personally I also think that this speed comes, only partly from their age, but mainly from their better footwork... Hence they can't piss all over 60 yr old 8th dans (who have exceptional footwork).


Yups. They might be bendy, hitting weirdly, but usually their footwork allows them to get away with it. (Hence my question to Bob whether he could hit her).

[Fonsz]

I have witnessed the battlefield that an Japanese Inter High School (senior) shiai is. I have to agree with Mr's. Schmidt and D'Artagnan.
It might not look like as the Kendo we are supposed to do. But if you imported a few of those "kids" into Europe and spread them around the dojo's..... The general level would go up and away. I even saw cocky 17 year old guys doing jodan as if they were doing it for 24 years. It would frighten anyone who would be his opponent.



Not saying that all jodan guys are cocky but you get my drift.:eek:

[The great I AM]

Its difficult to take it back to a club.No it's not, you simply change your focus. If you look at it, uchikomigeiko and kakarigeiko are still men-uchi, kote-uchi, dou-uchi and tsuki. It doesn't take a great deal of thought to stick them in somewhere. I honestly think that the importance and benefit of these exercises can't be stressed enough.

But hey, how you run your dojo is all up to you, not some random geezer on a website. If you want to do loads of men uchi kihon, that's totally up to you.

[The great I AM]

Or maybe at the pace they're used to, the points are hanging off us old slow guys like ripe cherries.Double posting goodness!

This, I feel, is more the answer than a simple reliance on speed, and Andy's comment on footwork. If they have the eye to spot a momentary suki, and the speed to make an effective ippon out of it, who are, being slower and less able, to criticise!

[neko kenshi]

On a semi-related side note: Would you say it's harder or easier to get shodan in japan?

[The great I AM]

On a semi-related side note: Would you say it's harder or easier to get shodan in japan?Because it's a kids grade.

[ben]

Getting off the pros and cons of high school kendo for a minute...

One thing I'm finding frustrating is gradings for children. It's a problem with a lot of 'foreign' kendo orgs where adults are the main practitioners.

In Australia kids undertake kyu gradings with adults. This means they get compared with the adults. I have young kids whose kendo is equal to their prospective grade, but when they have a handful of adults going for the same grade who are performing well above their current grade, the kids inevitably fail.

My club has a visiting Japanese high school nidan who told me the other day her first shinsa was for ikkyu. She commented on how strong all mid to high kyu grades were that she'd seen in Australia. They were all more like her experience of yudansha in Japan.

I'd like kyu grades to be for children only, like Japan. It would really help motivation and retention I feel. As it is, it's hard to convince a 9 year old to keep trying when the goalposts seem to move according to who they're grading with. We need to recognise that those (young kids) that do keep going with little reward or validation are exceptional, not the norm.

I like Kenshi's rule of thumb that it's much easier to get 1, 2, 3 dan in Japan, and easier to get 5, 6, 7 dan* outside Japan. It matches with what I've seen.

b

PS - By easier I mean pass rates of 30-50% as against 5-15%.

[JSchmidt]

In Australia kids undertake kyu gradings with adults. This means they get compared with the adults. I have young kids whose kendo is equal to their prospective grade, but when they have a handful of adults going for the same grade who are performing well above their current grade, the kids inevitably fail.


But that's really the fault of the examiners. The criteria for passing shouldn't change. Either they do kendo adequate for the level or they don't.
Having said that, I have seen that happen several times and not just for kyu-grades.

[ben]

Yes that's true enough. But most examiners, whilst excellent kenshi, are usually not trained in assessment methodologies. Most will look at a group of kendoka and assess based on the standard they see before them rather than an abstract rubric. They make sure that all the requisite standards are met of course, but there is an unspoken pressure not to pass those whose kendo falls below the average seen on the day. This pressure doesn't come from a person or organisation, it comes from the desire to maintain, and be seen to maintain, high standards. And that's not good or bad, or perhaps it is both good and bad. It is how it works in practice.

Obviously there is room for improvement here. But being able to compare like with like is easier, which is why I think it would be good to reserve kyu grades for kids, and have ikkyu and up for adults.

b

[ben]

Sorry for double post...

I think the difficulty also derives from making adults progress step-by-step through the kyu grades at, what is for some, an artificially slow pace. More and more I'm seeing kyu grades reach yudansha level in their kendo by 2 kyu, sometimes even 3 kyu. This means that the discrepancy is getting greater between the top and bottom of the class, as it were. There is not enough discretion for the grading panels to advance people more than one step, and to do so confidently, knowing they are not skewing the overall development of kendo in their region.

A lot of us actually have an inbuilt rubric: we know when we see shodan kendo, nidan kendo. I think this is a simplified version of how hachidan examiners work. They have seen so many candidates that they just know. Perhaps it is a matter of getting grading panels to remember this?

b

[JSchmidt]

A lot of us actually have an inbuilt rubric: we know when we see shodan kendo, nidan kendo. I think this is a simplified version of how hachidan examiners work. They have seen so many candidates that they just know. Perhaps it is a matter of getting grading panels to remember this?

b

Well, I have been outspoken against the kyu-grading system (6th-2nd), especially with my experience in NZ and to a more limited degree, Australia.
I think it holds (adult) people back, more than it helps them progress, but that's a separate discussion.

With regards to the grading panels, the grades below 4th dan are more or less purely technical examinations. There are certain technical criteria that has to be fulfilled in order for the candidate to pass the grading and I think that there's a tendency to sometime ignore those. This especially show up when people with awkward styles go for grading and while they technically fulfill all the criteria, they fail because the examiners just look at their style and not what they do.
This is to some extent the same thing with kids. They should look at them for purely what they do and not what people 10-20 years older do.
Age should also be taken into consideration, in terms of what kids at their respective age should be capable of doing, but again, that also to some extent required the examiners to have experience with teaching kids.

This is however all very easy for me to say as I've yet to sit on a panel. (And I'm not looking forward to the day when I have to).

[hl1978]

Sorry for double post...

I think the difficulty also derives from making adults progress step-by-step through the kyu grades at, what is for some, an artificially slow pace. More and more I'm seeing kyu grades reach yudansha level in their kendo by 2 kyu, sometimes even 3 kyu. This means that the discrepancy is getting greater between the top and bottom of the class, as it were. There is not enough discretion for the grading panels to advance people more than one step, and to do so confidently, knowing they are not skewing the overall development of kendo in their region.


There used to be a lot more flexibility in this when I first started out about 10 years ago, though it seems like things have tightened down a bit in the US, probably because amongst other things the changes to require godan and above examiners on the panel. (I've seen people awarded ikkyu on their first exam. I myself skipped ikkyu and went from ni-kyu to shodan).

If someone is doing shodan kendo but required to recieve nikyu or ikkyu, it seems silly to hold them back. Same for someone who has been shodan, yet practicing consistantly for 20 years (who is performing at godan+level) and can only be promoted to nidan due to time in grade requirements.

[The great I AM]

If someone is doing shodan kendo but required to recieve nikyu or ikkyu, it seems silly to hold them back. Same for someone who has been shodan, yet practicing consistantly for 20 years (who is performing at godan+level) and can only be promoted to nidan due to time in grade requirements.In this case though, surely a seperate question would be why haven't they graded in 20 years?

[bobdonny]

But hey, how you run your dojo is all up to you, not some random geezer on a website. If you want to do loads of men uchi kihon, that's totally up to you.

Best thing you've said so far :)

[The great I AM]

Best thing you've said so far :)How nice. I hope enjoy being wrong.

[bobdonny]

How nice. I hope enjoy being wrong.

Well I don't quite understand that, but thanks anyway.

[The great I AM]

Well I don't quite understand that, but thanks anyway.I am tired and made what I thought was a simple typo, it should be:

I hope YOU enjoy being wrong.

[bobdonny]

I am tired and made what I thought was a simple typo, it should be:

Probably best not to post when you are tired then.

I hope you enjoy being right ;)

[The great I AM]

Probably best not to post when you are tired then.

I hope you enjoy being right ;)I do, very much.

[bobdonny]

I do, very much.
What? Enjoy being right or post when your tired?
:)

[The great I AM]

What? Enjoy being right or post when your tired?
:)Don't you need to go to the toilet?

[bobdonny]

Don't you need to go to the toilet?

No but thanks for the concern I guess?
Its a bit strange tho you worrying about that, I know you are tired tho' so I'll let it slide. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

As far as the grading thing goes (and I have sat on a panel several times):

Frankly, the level required for shodan is not that high. Dicing it up into 6 pieces is pretty tricky. We give kids kyu in our club, but it's just a club thing. Nevertheless, we've clearly defined what each mean, if you're curious you can see our standards here (http://www.kendo-sask.com/policy.html), scroll down to "youth grading requirements".

For adults, the CKF grades ikkyu and above. We hold an internal grading to determine if they can wear bogu, after that the next exam is ikkyu. I think that's about right.

As far as absolute standards for dan: it's really hard to get those written in stone, and even if you did then you'd still have to make allowances for individuals. However the generally accepted standard is that 1-3 dan are purely technical grades, we are not looking for advanced concepts here, just good movement, spirit and waza execution.