Bummed out

[JByrd]

I went to see the doctor today for my damaged left shoulder, which was injured in a Kendo seminar nearly a year ago. In between X-rays and hydrocortisone injections, he told me to find a new hobby. After nearly 20 years of effort, I'm having a tough time getting my mind around the idea that Kendo is really over for me.

[NoNameKleenex]

Dang, JByrd . . . that's a pretty tough pill to swallow.

Do you have any alternatives to follow, ie. surgery or other treatments? In other words, do you think it's premature to consider giving up kendo?

I hope all goes well.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sorry to hear that. I'd get a second opinion, especially if the guy you're seeing is not a sports medicine specialist.

[bobdonny]

bollox, I was thought by a hachidan that cannot fight due to leg and joint problems.
I was also thought by another who cannot do fumikomi anymore.
Also I've been thought by sandans who cant practice anymore! At all ages and all levels you can find people helping other people in kendo. You are either being helped or helping.

I see it as a way to "change your kendo" and pass on your 20 years knowledge to the next generation. You dont have to stop learning and developing, i hope!

A change certainly, but not stopping, there is always a bright side if you look hard enough? No more uchikomi?

[JSchmidt]

That sucks...but do get a second/third opinion.

Bob, I've seen a couple of people struggle with bad shoulder injuries and it's very hard to do kendo without using your shoulders!.
There's ways around it (one-handed jodan, for example), but those compromises are tough and I think those things becomes harder to adjust to, if you already got a defined opinion about where you want to go with your kendo.

[Kenzan]

My father played Tennis most of his life, and had the issues you described.
He never had surgery, and even after much treatment he still had severe pain in his shoulder.
He was told by many specialists to simply give up Tennis and there was no hope for his pain if he did not.
He's 73 now, and he competes almost weekly.
Here's what he says worked for him:

Shoulder exercises designated to strengthen the muscles that support his shoulder, and he swears that his twice daily doses of Chondroitin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chondroitin_sulfate)taken in supplement form have worked for him.
Something to think about anyway.

[H.Sandsleth]

Sad to hear that. But I agree with those who say you should get a second and third opinion. Also, I'd look into the use of hydrocortison injections. Some will rather not give it to active people because it is said to sometimes cause more problems than they fix.

[tango]

oh man... not good news!
<insert reiteration of others' advice for second/third opinions>

in a worst case scenario, would you be able to stay involved in some kind of teaching role?

[Maku-san]

A doctor's word is not gospel.

Even a second opinion can be flawed.

Kendo, however, is for life.

Take your Chondritin supplement daily and pick up yer shinai, fellow Kendoka!!!

Ganbatte!!!

Mark :D

[kuzu70]

That is tough.
Did the doctor tell you exactly what is wrong with your shoulder? Rotator cuff?

[JByrd]

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement and sympathy. I am still cautiously hopeful, but I have to face the reality that my shoulder may never heal to the point where my previous level of activity is possible.

Part of the reason I'm in the sorry shape I'm in is because I was not being realistic about what I could and could not do. Ignoring the pain has not proven to be a good long term strategy. Sometimes I can't find the line between being tough-minded, and being stupid. Motivation was a big part of it, too. After years of being stuck, I finally started to make progress, and wanted to strike while the iron was hot. I should have been patient.

What is clear is that I have to avoid keiko altogether for several more months, at least. I've already been out for a month. I will begin physical therapy, and see how far I can get. When I think I'm as rehabilitated as I am going to get, I'll pick up my shinai again and hope for the best.

[NigelSponge]

my vote goes for the 1 handed jodan all the way!
That is truly bad ass, my friend.
Don't hurt yourself anymore, but on the other hand, if you love kendo, regardless of what activities you can continue in, keep it in your life! =D

[Kenzan]

I once saw a Nito guy with a Bionic leg.
If he can do it so can you!
Don't give up!

Then again, don't cripple yourself either.

[ben]

What about sei nito? The left arm holding the shoto would not be too onerous, and the majority of the work is done by the right arm. IIRC the founder of Musashikai had a similar impetus for starting nito.

+1 to what everyone else said about a second opinion. Even sports medicine specialists tend to know sweet FA about kendo. Perhaps a trip to Japan and Katsuura Clinic is in order? :P

b

[SmellsLikeBogu]

there's a guy doing kendo from a wheelchair. and this other guy doesn't even have legs!

Someone from our club had something rip on the top part of his biceps, so it was only connected on one end anymore. After a few months of physical therapy, his muscle still looks funky(a lot more towards the elbow), but he is back in the game, although at his own pace. Just don't give up. There is always a way if you want it bad enough.

[bullet08]

yeah.. get second opinon.. or third before doing anything about it. i have lady who works with me who went with her first doc's opinion and cut out all her cartridge in her knee.. found out that it was not needed, or at least some of it could have been left there for better mobility.

trust, but verify.. or better yet.. remember that doctors are the very last people you will see before you die.

pete

[rottunpunk]

hey jbyrd
sorry to hear the news
my shoulder got in the way of me doing kendo too
but atleast i had iai to fall back on

hey maybe we could form the one armed kendo club :D

seriously though
i hope you dont let it get to you too much
and that you can find something else to do
:p

[dwez]

he swears that his twice daily doses of Chondroitin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chondroitin_sulfate)taken in supplement form have worked for him.
Something to think about anyway.

You're not that guy who keeps sending me emails from the pharmacy about 'meds' are you? Please stop, I have enough already!

[Ookami7]

Just caught this thread today, sorry to hear the tough news! Keep up the hard work, as others have noted get other opinions!
I am sure you will find a way to keep Kendo in your life! All the best wishes and thoughts from over here in Japan and I am sure every one from Idaho Kendo kai sends the same! Sometimes all it is thought process of failing down 7 times and getting back up 8 times! Hang in there!

[Kenzan]

You're not that guy who keeps sending me emails from the pharmacy about 'meds' are you? Please stop, I have enough already!

Stop buying the Viagra and we'll talk.

[Paburo]

there's one crazy guy at my dojo who was told by dorctors to stop kendo about a shoulder problem but he doesn't. every xx minutes his arm dislocates out of his shoulder like the dude in lethal weapon, and he has to use his shinai to put the thing back on track again. ouch.

well. sucks rats arse about your shoulder... hope you get better soon and get back to keiko in form or the other.

cheers.

[JByrd]

Update: The cortisone injection in my a/c joint burned like heck for a day or so, but is now having a positive effect. Since that element of the pain has subsided, I can distinctly feel the tear in the long head of my biceps, and in the supraspinatus. I'll probably need injections there, too.

One thing I have to figure out before I can keiko again is how to protect the acromion of my left shoulder (that's the bony point right on top). At least half of my problem is a/c joint damage from direct blows to the top of the shoulder.

Optimally, the solution I seek will be cheap, easy to obtain or fabricate, will stay in place, will not restrict motion, and will not be visible. I have a few ideas, and I'm hoping that you, my large-brained Kendo friends, might generously give me some more. :)

[Kenzan]

Are you doing any sort of stretching and strengthening regimen?

Yoga *may* help.

[Anonymous]

This is the perfect excuse to do one handed jodan and look like a badass.

[H.Sandsleth]

Optimally, the solution I seek will be cheap, easy to obtain or fabricate, will stay in place, will not restrict motion, and will not be visible. I have a few ideas, and I'm hoping that you, my large-brained Kendo friends, might generously give me some more. :) Modified shoulderpad, attached with velcro in the gi so you can adjust it. If it is too visible, get one for the other side as well...

[JByrd]

Are you doing any sort of stretching and strengthening regimen?

Yoga *may* help.

In my initial visit for the problem, I was given the option to choose how aggressively I addressed it. I began with a booklet of stretches and exercises with a heavy rubber band for resistance. I did the stretches and exercses for three weeks, along with icing, and it seemed to help. After one relatively mild keiko, I was back to square one, unable to lift my left elbow away from my body. That led to the second visit, and the cortisone injection.

I have a physical therapy session scheduled next week, we'll see how that goes.



This is the perfect excuse to do one handed jodan and look like a badass.

It would have to be a reverse jodan, as it's my left shoulder that's not working. At this point, I'm not seriously contemplating an alternate kamae, but placing all my hopes on rehab. :)

[JByrd]

Modified shoulderpad, attached with velcro in the gi so you can adjust it. If it is too visible, get one for the other side as well...

Do you mean a foam pad, like the ones they put in garments for shape? The joint is so fragile that I'm thinking I may need some sort of hard plastic shell on the outside, and rather dense foam or sorbothane type padding underneath. I'm not looking forward to testing the prototypes. :eek:

[JSchmidt]

After one relatively mild keiko, I was back to square one, unable to lift my left elbow away from my body. That led to the second visit, and the cortisone injection.

The problem with injuries like that, is that you need to get roughly 75% healed before starting stressing it again. If you re-injure it prior to that, you go back to 0 and all the rehab is wasted. Once you get over that threshold, a minor re-injury will not set you back all the way. (Been there, done that).
Rehab just plain sucks and requires just as much dedication as the practice itself. The hardest bit is when the pain is gone, where you start to struggle with motivation for doing the rehab-exercises and willpower for staying away from practice. Physios never warn you enough about this (Or I didn't listen carefully enough).
At this stage, get wife/girlfriend/whatever to support you, ie help you with the exercises and try to prevent re-damaging it by returning to keiko too early.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Jon, why are you getting hit on the shoulder so much? I almost never get hit on the shoulder. Are you ducking a lot?

[H.Sandsleth]

Do you mean a foam pad, like the ones they put in garments for shape? The joint is so fragile that I'm thinking I may need some sort of hard plastic shell on the outside, and rather dense foam or sorbothane type padding underneath. I'm not looking forward to testing the prototypes. :eek:
Yes. And then use the shoulderpad and fill it with a more suitable material where you need it, sew/glue it in. I think it will be easier than fabricating something from scratch, since the pad will already have a shape that covers the shoulder.

[sainueng]

One thing I have to figure out before I can keiko again is how to protect the acromion of my left shoulder (that's the bony point right on top). At least half of my problem is a/c joint damage from direct blows to the top of the shoulder.


Being hit on the left shoulder worries me quite a bit as well. (I had a chronically dislocating shoulder that I finally got surgery for.) I started looking into debana kote leading w/ the left foot or going to the left, instead of going under the blade. I'm still trying to drill it in and modify my instincts though... :p


What about sei nito? The left arm holding the shoto would not be too onerous, and the majority of the work is done by the right arm. IIRC the founder of Musashikai had a similar impetus for starting nito.


Are you thinking of Nakamura sensei, the current shihan of Musashikai? He had a spinal injury and nito was less stressful on his hip and knee. Don't know about the founder.

[JByrd]

Jon, why are you getting hit on the shoulder so much? I almost never get hit on the shoulder. Are you ducking a lot?

I never got in the habit of ducking, even in shiai, and I wasn't ducking when I got hit as far as I know. Also, my movement is pretty much always straight in. I'm not quick or agile enough to do otherwise. I'm trying to do the simplest, most basic Kendo I possibly can.

Most of the time I get hit because I have knocked my opponent's shinai off center doing debana men. By the time his shinai comes down, I have already struck his men, and my momentum has carried me into chika-ma where I am hit on the shoulder by the fat part of his shinai.

Last time I practiced I got hit pretty hard doing men-suriage-men. His shinai went *splat* on my shoulder, about the same time mine went *splat* on his men. I understand why his shinai was off center, but I can't account for why it still had so much power nearly a foot below the top of my men.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I can't account for why it still had so much power nearly a foot below the top of my men.That would be bad technique on his part, I think...

Anyways, what I would do is to get some closed cell foam, enclose it in cotton and attach some velcro to it and to the inside of the shoulder of your keikogi. Then you'll have a removable, washable pad that shouldn't be too obvious.

[samurai999]

there's a guy doing kendo from a wheelchair. and this other guy doesn't even have legs!



Although this is great encouragement on your part, JBryd really has to listen to his body. I have a dentist who used to practice kendo and one day, this huge guy just stomped on his foot crushing his toenail. He then got to thinking "what would happen to his career if his finger(s) were broken". He does a lot of delicate work so his fingers are his career. I mean would you trust a dentist with crushed fingers with say.. a filling or a root canal?

Note that I'm not telling him to quit either. If you can find a niche where you can still practice and not get injured, by all means keep going. You'll just have to change things around and adjust.

As for me, I came back from a full achilles rupture and was still able to compete in the US champs after the proper surgery and PT. If I felt anything from my achilles, I was sitting and stretching. The worst thing that can happen as somebody stated before is to repeat the injury.

[Moose]

One thing I have to figure out before I can keiko again is how to protect the acromion of my left shoulder (that's the bony point right on top). At least half of my problem is a/c joint damage from direct blows to the top of the shoulder.

Optimally, the solution I seek will be cheap, easy to obtain or fabricate, will stay in place, will not restrict motion, and will not be visible. I have a few ideas, and I'm hoping that you, my large-brained Kendo friends, might generously give me some more. :)


I'm not sure why you insist that it must not be visible? Or do you mean discreet?

If it means the difference between continuing kendo or retirement why not consider wearing something like these?
http://www.rugbygear.com/catalog_i1016729.html?catId=19917

[ben]

...Are you thinking of Nakamura sensei, the current shihan of Musashikai? He had a spinal injury and nito was less stressful on his hip and knee. Don't know about the founder.
That's probably the person I was thikning of. OK, different injury.

b

[ne0r]

That's indeed a tough one, sorry to hear.
But I seriously think you'll find a way to practise =) There is always one-handed jodan...

[JByrd]

I'm not sure why you insist that it must not be visible? Or do you mean discreet?


Invisible is best, discreet is OK. :) If it can't be seen, it can't be misinterpreted as a request for special treatment. That rugby protector looks pretty bulletproof. I wonder, would it restrict motion?

There are a lot of things I can do (especially PT) before I have to think seriously about quitting for good. I just have to quit swinging up with my left arm, for now. I'm still going to class and doing what I can (i.e., no swinging up with my left arm, no bogu practice). I spent some time practicing my kamae and footwork in the mirror. I also observed, and learned a lot about people's quirks, and shortcomings. When I come back, it will be with a vengeance. :laugh:

[ahmed61086]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkMs2232P0w&feature=related


Dont jukendo guys where some sort of shoulder armour?


Btw, I have an injury right now that prevent me from doing full practices in Chudan so I am doing hidari Jodan. I know everyone has said it like 50 times allready but if things dont work out with rehab, kendo still doesn't have to be over. Just do a different kamae.

[Moose]

Invisible is best, discreet is OK. :) That rugby protector looks pretty bulletproof. I wonder, would it restrict motion?



That type of rugby protector shouldn't restrict movement at all but its not "hard shell". It could be a good place to start from and you may be able to ad some hard plastic if needed.

They'll be more discreet than these...
http://www.gridironshoulderpads.com/GridironAL.htm

[JByrd]

I saw a physical therapist yesterday. He took a detailed history, and evaluated my strength, range of motion, and pain level, in a variety of ways. He thinks the damage is not so bad, and I can expect full recovery. :)

He gave me a set of exercises to be performed with an elastic strap for resistance. I have to do 3 sets of 10 reps for each exercise, twice a day, followed by ice. He didn't give any indication of how long it might take to fully recover, and I'll have to ease myself back into keiko gradually. For now, I'm just doing footwork, a little one-handed suburi, and some light receiving. At least the calluses on my feet will still be there when I need them again.

[Gideon]

That's fantastic news! Good luck with the PT!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Excellent news, Jon! Don't rush your recovery. My only shoulder injury was tendonitis in the rotator cuff, and that took a full month of the elastic band exercises. So be patient, please.

[H.Sandsleth]

:-) . No longer bummed out! Those exercises will probably get boring, but keep it up.

[ben]

Great news! Don't rush the recovery.

b

[JByrd]

Thanks for all the support. I can see it's going to take something more than just patience and persevereance: I'm going to have to stop living unconsciously.

Last night I was sitting on the couch playing my guitar when my wife walked in. I naturally scooted over to make room, placing my left hand down on the cushion, and pushing myself up and back. I immediately experienced a stab of pain that took my breath away, and it's still aching over 12 hours later. I have to wait until it stops hurting before I can resume therapy.

I'm astounded to realize how much I do without being conscious of it, and taking a fraction of a second to foresee the consequence. My sensei keeps telling me, "consciousness!" (I know about 5 people who just grinned, because they've heard that same thing from the same person at least a hundred times). I think maybe if I can start living every moment while being aware of what the hell I am doing, I might actually stand a chance of making godan some day. If not, I guess I'll just continue to be a knucklehead with a sore shoulder.