Attacking whilst down

[emitbrownne]

To turn my recent poll on its head, I pose the following:
Is it allowed to strike an opponent from a prone/fallen position?

I realise the best thing to do is to get back on your feet and get into the swing of things again... I was just wondering if its allowed.

Maybe a katate tsuki to an opponent who is looming over you?

Just wondering...:D

[Danny Boy]

To turn my recent poll on its head, I pose the following:
Is it allowed to strike an opponent from a prone/fallen position?

I realise the best thing to do is to get back on your feet and get into the swing of things again... I was just wondering if its allowed.

Maybe a katate tsuki to an opponent who is looming over you?

Just wondering...:D

Would you score a point if you were a judge seeing that situation ? I know i wouldnt.
Best thing you can do is either to get up ASAP and cover yourself with the shian while yo do so.

[John W]

I agree.

If I were a shimpan I may hansoku the fallen competitor- that could be quite a dangerous move. :dead:

[Hiryu]

I can find nothing in the rules saying that you can not attack while lounging..... However You will not be able to gain a point from this position, as I see no way to complete all of the requirements of a yuko datotsu.
A Hansoku I do not believe would be appropriate. I would much rather see someone try to maintain their composure by continuing the match rather than hit the floor and just give up and expect the match to stop for them.
Would not the Hansoku be more aptly awarded to the person who falls and does nothing, immediatly figures the shimpan will stop the match out of pity and unnecessarily ends the match?
What is the difference between falling down and stepping out of bounds? I doubt that anyone stepping out of bounds did so intentionally... Just as I doubt that anyone falling down did so intentionally, both are due to a lack of attention to something...your feet and position in both situations???

Has anyone here asked their sensei these questions? Whats the answer?
You should be asking your sensei these questions! Otherwise the questions posted here are just mental masturbation that makes some feel good with the discussion but accomplish nothing else. Go Ask Your Sensei, Read the Rules of a kendo Match, Buy the Kendo Dictionary (Suki, Tsuki) There is a difference!

Ganbatte!

[John W]

Has anyone here asked their sensei these questions? Whats the answer?
You should be asking your sensei these questions! Otherwise the questions posted here are just mental masturbation that makes some feel good with the discussion but accomplish nothing else. Go Ask Your Sensei, Read the Rules of a kendo Match, Buy the Kendo Dictionary (Suki, Tsuki) There is a difference!

Ganbatte![/QUOTE]


I find it amusing how the Oxford English Dictionary defines a FORUM as - "a public meeting place where items of business are DISCUSSED".

If we all asked our sensei questions AND THEN GOT THE ANSWERS then there would be no reason to have this forum at all.

And if you know all the answers then why do you bother logging into these forums?
:ponder:

[Hiryu]

Dear John,

I am suggesting that people ask their sensei "Also" and bring the input to the discussion. I also believe with input from sensei, you will get different answers, and we can discuss the differing insights.

I believe I posted everything as a "Point of view" and as "I believe".

I am glad you can use the dictionary, now can you explaine why you would give a person that falls and strikes a hansoku, and back the explaination up with the rules of a kendo match, or atleast a more in depth explaination? Maybe this is why Ni-Dan do not shimpan......

If I stated my opinion so well that you feel I know everything, ( I didn't say it, you did), why does it offend you so?

My apologies if I was so rude I offended you.

[ALI G]

I agree.

If I were a shimpan I may hansoku the fallen competitor- that could be quite a dangerous move. :dead:

Itz would definitely beez a Penaltz if I hitzya in da dingleberryz wid my shinaiz while on da groundz..........

Ali G in da house

[Miravil]

I don't really know how does kendo rules goes, but I do know that in some other martial arts where if a player falls intentionally will be given a hansoku. It shows that the player has no fighting spirit or respect to a fight.

[emitbrownne]

Hi guys ... before war errupts over the ideologies of a forum, I will clear up a few points.

I attend two classes a week, one on Sunday, and the other on Wednesday. They are run by two different sensei. My questions arise from something I have seen, or by something I have thought after a training session.

I post them on the forum as a means of keeping my thoughts alive and gaining the experience of kendoka who have more experience than I.

I do ask my sensei, but I generally put posts on this forum between classes when I do not have access to them.

Since I do not have a kendo dictionary, and the words following are not phonetic, could someone please clarify for all readers :

What is suki?
What is tsuki?

I was refering in my original post to a thrust to the throat.

And I only suggested the attack as a means of defense as you raised yourself up again (rather than just blocking). But thinking about it logically from the points that have been raised... of course you cannot get a point from the attack (sorry I'm dim some/most times :D )

Cheers
Paulo

[Relic]

Since I do not have a kendo dictionary, and the words following are not phonetic, could someone please clarify for all readers :

What is suki?
What is tsuki?

I was refering in my original post to a thrust to the throat.


The thrust to the throat is pronounced: tsuki.

I believe the common use of suki in relation to kendo, is in the sense of a weakness or opening in your kamae.

I suppose 'kamae' is interchangable with 'spirit' in the above (purely my interpretation though). I have also read (the source eludes me, sorry) that suki refers to a waste of energy or force, and as such is used in many disciplines, tea ceremony being one of them. Whether the two 'suki' are the same kanji I don't know.

If someone else can elaborate further I am curious to know more.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Since I do not have a kendo dictionary, and the words following are not phonetic, could someone please clarify for all readers :

What is suki?
What is tsuki?


They are phonetic, ie they are pronounced differently. Most english people pronounce suki as "soo-kee", which is more or less correct, but they pronounce tsuki as "skee" which is incorrect. You should pronounce the t, the s and the u. They combine to form one Japanese consonant/vowel combination sound. It would be represented by one hiragana character if you wrote it phonetically, "su" and "tsu" being different.

Anyways, pronunciation aside tsuki means thrust. In kendo it's a thrust to the throat, and in karate it's a straight punch. Suki means opening, a weakness in your opponents defense that is an opportunity for you. If for example your opponent has the habit of pulling his hands toward his chest as preparation for launching an attack, that's a suki you can exploit - hit his kote as he comes back, or use his movement as your signal to prepare some oji-waza. Or if your opponent has bad zanshin, such that he isn't paying attention as he turns after the attack, that is a suki.

[Old Warrior]

Last Tuesday I was bouting with a senior. I went for kote and just missed but the referee gave me the point. I thought it was no good and waived my left hand as if to say "No good".

He reset us at center court and my opponent went to return the favor with a kote strike of his own. Except, he clubbed me with a full swing, hitting my thumb with the center of his shinai. That was the end of the match - he broke my thumb and I was seeing stars.

If I had taken the point given to me, the bout would have been over and I wouldn't be looking at one "ugly black thumb nail". Turning to the question of this thread - If he had fallen and I seized on the opportunity for the point I wouldn't have given him the chance to continue and possibly win or just hit me again.

In retrospect, I would do the same thing again. The purpose of practice is to improve and I wouldn't want a point that I didn't earn. But, there is something to be said for the idea that in a bout the opponent should be shown no mercy. That's not to suggest getting "carried away" or "winning at all cost"; just that training for faux combat, perhaps should cause us to adopt a more bellicostic attitude for the moment of "combat".

[Hai_hai]

To turn my recent poll on its head, I pose the following:
Is it allowed to strike an opponent from a prone/fallen position?

I realise the best thing to do is to get back on your feet and get into the swing of things again... I was just wondering if its allowed.

Maybe a katate tsuki to an opponent who is looming over you?

Just wondering...:D
You could swing the shinai while on the ground but you will not get any points because you are not showing proper form.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sorry about your thumb, OW.

Don't wave off any points the referee gives you - normally you don't get to do that anyways, as your opinion on what is and isn't a point accounts for exactly squat in a match. If you are calling points on each other in free practice, then of course the honour system prevails. But in shiai, abide by the judges decision. Believe me, your opponents will get plenty awarded them that aren't so great. It all comes out in the wash.

One other thing to consider is that at your level, the judge may well award imperfect points. I know that for mudansha, I will give a slightly off-target point if everything else was good, especially if I judge that no completely correct points are likely to happen.

[John W]

Dear John,

I am suggesting that people ask their sensei "Also" and bring the input to the discussion. I also believe with input from sensei, you will get different answers, and we can discuss the differing insights.

I believe I posted everything as a "Point of view" and as "I believe".

I am glad you can use the dictionary, now can you explaine why you would give a person that falls and strikes a hansoku, and back the explaination up with the rules of a kendo match, or atleast a more in depth explaination? Maybe this is why Ni-Dan do not shimpan......

If I stated my opinion so well that you feel I know everything, ( I didn't say it, you did), why does it offend you so?

My apologies if I was so rude I offended you.


Apology accepted Hiryu.

By the way its EXPLAIN not EXPLAINE. I got that one from OXford English Dictionary too. :nervous:

[Hiryu]

Apology accepted Hiryu.

By the way its EXPLAIN not EXPLAINE. I got that one from OXford English Dictionary too. :nervous:

Heck John,

I thinks I con stil git mi ideuz acros wid pooor spelun. But even with good spelling, I can't follow the logic in yours. If I was worried about the spelling, I would have dun a sepll chek.

Maybe you wuld be moor at home on da Oxford English Dictionary Forums........
And I couldunt help but notice that Oxford does not have a capitalized "X",...... and I didn't need to look in da dictionary!!! :square:

[John W]

Heck John,

I thinks I con stil git mi ideuz acros wid pooor spelun. But even with good spelling, I can't follow the logic in yours. If I was worried about the spelling, I would have dun a sepll chek.

Maybe you wuld be moor at home on da Oxford English Dictionary Forums........
And I couldunt help but notice that Oxford does not have a capitalized "X",...... and I didn't need to look in da dictionary!!! :square:

HAHAHAHA!

I like you Hiryu- you make me laugh :happy:

To be honest I included the "X" to see if you would get it.

Based on your response and wit- I think we will make good forum buddies!

I hope you have a merry Christmas and a happy new year.

[Hiryu]

HAHAHAHA!

I like you Hiryu- you make me laugh :happy:

To be honest I included the "X" to see if you would get it.

Based on your response and wit- I think we will make good forum buddies!

I hope you have a merry Christmas and a happy new year.


AAAhhhhhh U use strong go-no-sen waza w/o offensive follow through.....
impressive. But remember, ALWAYS follow through when your opponent falls, not after he's been laying there! :ermm: :happy:
SO sdoes this mean were gona play good kenshi bad kenshi with peoples posts ?

[John W]

AAAhhhhhh U use strong go-no-sen waza w/o offensive follow through.....
impressive. But remember, ALWAYS follow through when your opponent falls, not after he's been laying there! :ermm: :happy:
SO sdoes this mean were gona play good kenshi bad kenshi with peoples posts ?

Well that depends on the human condition at the time of posting, which typically involves the following factors...

1- what you ate for breakfast
2- what you watched on TV the night before sleeping
3- and of course your mood at the time of posting :tired: :happy: :angry: :ermm:

happy posting Hiryu :happy: