Mon on do

[Shiro]

I've seen some kendoka wearing little stickers on their do that represent the mon (family crests) of samurai families or nice drawings. Somebody knows where I could find some of those stickers?

[emitbrownne]

I've seen some kendoka wearing little stickers on their do that represent the mon (family crests) of samurai families or nice drawings. Somebody knows where I could find some of those stickers?
I believe e-bogu sell these. I dont know what they are like though, because I've never bought a set.

[emitbrownne]

I believe e-bogu sell these. I dont know what they are like though, because I've never bought a set.
and the moral of the story is... "never trust your memory, go and check your sources before posting on sites and making an @rse of yourself"

I am sure I've seen them around, and I could have sworn that e-bogu had them, but I've just checked and cannae find them anywhere... sorry.

[Shiro]

No problem ^-^

I looked on google and I couldn't foind anything.....
I'll ask the next time I see someone with it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

They're called kamon. If you get a print catalog from Koei or some other source they usually have a selection. The cheapest ones are just stickers for your doh, but you can spend a lot of money and have it built into the finish with foil or paint.

[Shiro]

The sticker will do ^-^

I have a second hand bogu, so.....

Thanks for the info, Emit and Neil!

[HawaiianKendoka]

They sell mon sticker at Kendoshop (http://www.kendoshop.com)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Bear in mind that you can't wear just any old kamon because you think it looks nice. If your family is Japanese, of course you can wear that one. If your sensei is Japanese, maybe he will give you permission to wear his but that is usually granted later in your kendo career. If neither of those conditions apply, just leave your doh plain.

[ALI G]

Juz makez shurz youz uzez youz own familyz crezt.......It look stupidz seeing some-1z wearingz a crezt dat doezint meanz notingz 2 yaz....

Kindz of likez seeing a Japanesez guyz with a scottish coatz of armz crezt on dare do...

[Shiro]

Juz makez shurz youz uzez youz own familyz crezt.......It look stupidz seeing some-1z wearingz a crezt dat doezint meanz notingz 2 yaz....

Kindz of likez seeing a Japanesez guyz with a scottish coatz of armz crezt on dare do...

I was more thinking about the crest of great clans, like the oda or the Takeda. Just so that I could recognize my do more easily in the line.

[S. Takamori]

Hi!

Just ask your dojo member Philippe the "Koei" catalogue. You can order them from Eurobogu...

See you in december!

S. Takamori :laugh:

[Shiro]

Hi!

Just ask your dojo member Philippe the "Koei" catalogue. You can order them from Eurobogu...

See you in december!

S. Takamori :laugh:

Hello!

Thanks! I'll ask next Friday.
Will you come and train at my dojo in December?

Shiro.

[fukkenlazy]

Dude go check on Kendoshop.com they have those sticker for cheap!!!

[ALI G]

Sinz peeps aint puttingz der own family crezt on der boguz....Can youz putza logo sticka on da frontz of da Do?????????

I wuz tinking about putting a Wu-Tang Clan sticka on my Do......Bezidez peoplez not tinking dis iz traditional dis iz not againzt da rulez iz itz?????

[Shiro]

Dude go check on Kendoshop.com they have those sticker for cheap!!!

I didn't know about kendoshop

[emitbrownne]

They sell mon sticker at Kendoshop (http://www.kendoshop.com/)
Damn it ... I knew one of the shops in my favourites sold them.... :) :D ;)


One of the Kendoka in my dojo wears a european style shield bearing his family crest on his do. The transfer is the same size as one of these MON stickers and is a bit more appropriate to him.

Its actually a cool idea.... maybe I'll copy ;)

[Hai_hai]

I suggest buying a whole bunch of kamon stickers. Cover your entire do with the stickers in a smiley face pattern. Every time some Japanese person asks you to take off his family crest, remove that sticker and replace it with a smiley face sticker. After a while, you will have removed every kamon sticker and have replaced it with a smiley face sticker. So in the end, you would have a bunch of smiley face stickers looking like a smiley face on your do.

[Nanbanjin]

Some nice Kamon can be viewed at this Japanese site.

http://e-kamon.net/

[orayakab]

Oh come on! This is getting ridiculous. You wear a Kamon on your Do because it is a part of you and your family's identity. The Kamon is put on the Do because it identifies who you are and worn as a mark of gratitude and respect while representing your family while doing Kendo...

You just don't pick a random one that looks cool and stick it on the Do. It should mean something to the person wearing it.

So, it should not be used for the sole purpose of identifying your Bogu in a crowd. Nor should the Do be used as a canvas to make a smiley face or paste a Rap Group's Logo.

Orayakab, Ura

[Hai_hai]

Oh come on! This is getting ridiculous. You wear a Kamon on your Do because it is a part of you and your family's identity. The Kamon is put on the Do because it identifies who you are and worn as a mark of gratitude and respect while representing your family while doing Kendo...

You just don't pick a random one that looks cool and stick it on the Do. It should mean something to the person wearing it.

So, it should not be used for the sole purpose of identifying your Bogu in a crowd. Nor should the Do be used as a canvas to make a smiley face or paste a Rap Group's Logo.

Orayakab, Ura

This is your second post. Come on. You should either stay in lurking status or should not have created a second username just to say your thoughts under a different username.

[tango]

I agree with Oraya..

Plus, I thought I'd heard somewhere that only go-dan(?) and higher wear (or are allowed to wear?) such things on their do..

I've seen a few Americans wearing them on their do. I think it looks about as stupid as when they get their name in kanji put on a zekken.

Just my opinion,
t.

[Nanbanjin]

I agree with Oraya..

...I think it looks about as stupid as when they get their name in kanji put on a zekken....

t.

Every Japanese parson I have ever asked has said that kanji on zekken for foriegners is cool, as long as the kanji are appropriate.
I asked a Japanese girl from my dojo about this just yesterday.
I only use kanji on my zekken because my Japanese friends said I had to. One of my Japanese friends thought of the kanji that I use. They are phonetically accurate and not kitch.

Stupid would being using the kanji for Miyamoto Musashi, Banzai, Yamato Damashi, Kamikaze etc.
On that point you do occasionally see people who use men towel with Kamikaze and Matsuri written on them. In the first instance this is a little grotesque. In the second it is cute. In both cases inappropriate.
There is a young guy at our club who uses a Japanese military flag type rising sun on his men tower. He obviously doesn't know what this means. I will have to give him a new men towel next time I see him.

I have another friend in Japan who owns a Bogu shop and he suggested that I get a kamon for my Do. He said he could make up one from a design of my creation.
He made on for another gaijin that I know that was in the shape of a bear's paw print. He said it looked really cool.
I'm not really interested in that type of thing myself, but I don't think that this makes me cooler than someone who is.

[Yellow Savage]

Every Japanese parson I have ever asked has said that kanji on zekken for foriegners is cool, as long as the kanji are appropriate...
.

Look mate, read my other post regarding Kanji on zekken...Kanji uses chinese characters. Chinese characters are NOT used phonetically, so that's why westerners should use katakana (the Japanese way to interpret western names). I know it may upset you because Katakana does n't look as COOL than Kanji...GET OVER IT Stick to katakana

[tango]

Right. It is very appropriate to use katakana to "spell out" western names on a zekken.

Using kanji (Chinese characters) to "spell out" western names is just about ignorant. It's just not the same thing as spelling out Japanese names in English. Pure westerners who use kanji to spell out their names seem to be trying to claim something that is just not "western". "I want kanji because it looks so much COOLER than katakana!!!" Whatever...

And yes, there was a very good thread about this topic somewhere in these forums.. Wish I had a link for it now.

..but this is getting off-topic.

As for a kamon on the do, think about it like this...
How silly would it be for a Japanese person to want a "western" coat-of-arms, make one up, put it on a flag, and then fly it outside his house?

Pretty silly, huh?

Why then should a westerner "adopt" a Japanesesque kamon to display on a do?

Just my un-asked-for 2 yen,
tango

[tango]

Of course, if you have a legitimate connection to an ancient family that originated in Europe and you happen to have a legitimate, registered family crest with that group in the U.K. that handles that stuff, then by all means, make one up and paste that on your do.

THAT would at least have some meaning.

I just don't understand why some westerners want to do this kind of thing...

Oh well... "Dress like a go-dan, fight like an ikkyu"...

Gosh, that seems to be SOOOOOO true for some people!

I think we'd all be better off worrying about how our kendo looks, rather than our do.

[Nanbanjin]

Look mate, read my other post regarding Kanji on zekken...Kanji uses chinese characters. Chinese characters are NOT used phonetically, so that's why westerners should use katakana (the Japanese way to interpret western names). I know it may upset you because Katakana does n't look as COOL than Kanji...GET OVER IT Stick to katakana

...sorry, but Chinese characters are used phonetically.

A common example is the Japanese phonetic use of Kanji for country names.
Please refer to the following list.

仏蘭西 フランス
英吉利・英国 イギリス
独　逸 ドイツ
伊太利亜・伊太利 イタリア
瑞　西 スイス
西班牙 スペイン
葡萄牙 ポルトガル
白耳義 ベルギー
和蘭・阿蘭陀 オランダ
墺太利 オーストリア
瑞　典 スウェーデン 　
諾　威 ノルウェー 現地名：ノルゲ
芬　蘭 フィンランド 　
丁　抹 デンマーク 　
希　臘 ギリシャ 英語名：グリース
波　蘭 ポーランド
露西亜 ロシア 　
亜米利加・米国 アメリカ 　
加奈陀 カナダ 　
墨西哥 メキシコ 　
玖　馬 キューバ 　
伯剌西爾 ブラジル 　
亜爾然丁 アルゼンチン 　
智　利 チリ 　
秘　露 ペルー 　
埃　及 エジプト 　
印　度 インド 　
比律賓 フィリピン 　
蒙　古 モンゴル 英語名：モンゴリア
泰 タイ 英語名：タイランド
土耳古 トルコ 英語名：ターキ
濠太剌利・豪州 オーストラリア 　
新西蘭 ニュージーランド

I am assuming you actually have some knowledge of the Japanese language and can read the above. If you would like I will include the roman alphabet phonetics.

It is not at all uncommon for Kanji to be used in this way, in Japanese anyway, if not Chinese. This type of usage is called Ate-ji (当て字)

My trusty dictionary defines ate-ji as:

[/I]a phonetic equivalent, a substitute [character (kanji)]

Clearly it is OK to use Kanji to spell Western names.

Do you actually have any Japanese language qualifications to back up your prejutice?
More to the point have you ever asked a Japanese person about this.
If you are Japanese have you ever asked another Japanese person about this?

[Nanbanjin]

Do you actually have any Japanese language qualifications to back up your prejutice?

Sorry, I meant prejudice.

[Nanbanjin]

Look mate...

Yellow Savage,

Where in Sydney do you train?
I will be at the National championships in Brisbane.
Look for the Zekken that reads 比井多 and I will be glad to go to great lengths to explain why you are wrong.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Do you actually have any Japanese language qualifications to back up your prejutice?
More to the point have you ever asked a Japanese person about this.
If you are Japanese have you ever asked another Japanese person about this?
Just jumping in here - yes, my sensei is an immigrant from Japan, as are most of the senior sensei here in Canada. He thinks the practice of translating western names with kanjii is pretty funny.

Regarding kamon on doh - Tango, your rank doesn't matter there. If you have a kamon (meaning, your family is Japanese or your sensei has given you permission to wear his), then you can put it on your doh regardless of rank. Of course if you wear a same-doh with foil kamon and you're ikkyu, you may raise an eyebrow or too, ne?

[mystic_kendoka]

wat is a same doh, may i ask?

[Shiro]

Oh come on! This is getting ridiculous. You wear a Kamon on your Do because it is a part of you and your family's identity. The Kamon is put on the Do because it identifies who you are and worn as a mark of gratitude and respect while representing your family while doing Kendo...

You just don't pick a random one that looks cool and stick it on the Do. It should mean something to the person wearing it.

So, it should not be used for the sole purpose of identifying your Bogu in a crowd. Nor should the Do be used as a canvas to make a smiley face or paste a Rap Group's Logo.

Orayakab, Ura

Look, I think I'm old enough to know I shouldn't just pick it randomly because it looks cool..... the kamon I will pick will represent something I stand for. And I think my sensei (he's a rokudan) is more qualified than a looney on a forum to tell me if I have the right to wear it.
If I had a family crest I would use it!

And last but not least..... if it could offend people, why the hell are they selling it in catalogues?!?! So, dear Orayakab, go whine against them, not me, ok? ;)

About the kanji on the zekken.... why not? If you ever have a seminar with japanese sensei, I think it's a form of respect to have something that identifies you in their language.

[Nanbanjin]

Just jumping in here - yes, my sensei is an immigrant from Japan, as are most of the senior sensei here in Canada. He thinks the practice of translating western names with kanjii is pretty funny.


My first sensei was a kendo seventh dan as well as a shodo instructor. My first ate-ji zekken was a gift him, and something he put quite a lot of thought into.
Getting an ate-ji was pretty well compulsory as far as he was concerned.

My second ate-ji zekken was something one the friends from my company kendo club in Japan thought up.

Another friend who owns a bogu shop in Japan tells me that while ate-ji are cool, my friend from the company in Japan probably could have done a better job in character selection.

Perhaps your Sensei falls into same group as this last example. There certainly could be some very inappropriate kanji usage out there.
Also, some names translate better than others.
For example Nick could be 日苦 which would plainly be stupid. 二玖 (this was thought up my a Japanese friend of mine, not for me as my name isn't Nick) might be perfectly acceptable.
For Neil you might get away with 新瑠, or 弐井留
Maybe your Sensei could suggest something better.

...Of course if you wear a same-doh with foil kamon and you're ikkyu, you may raise an eyebrow or too, ne?

Using Japanese terms like "ne" in English sentances to sound cool, now there's something that makes me cringe.

This has gotten way off the topic of mon on do.
Please reply to http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1771

[Nanbanjin]

About the kanji on the zekken.... why not? If you ever have a seminar with japanese sensei, I think it's a form of respect to have something that identifies you in their language.

Well said!!! I think that some people like to think they are so cool that they can dictate to us plebs.

[Kent Enfield]

About the kanji on the zekken.... why not? If you ever have a seminar with japanese sensei, I think it's a form of respect to have something that identifies you in their language.You mean like katakana?

My Japanese instructor "gave" me kanji for my name on one occasion. I also understand that if I had started using them as the regular way to write my name, she would have laughed me out of the room.

Yes, things can be transliterated using ateji, and they were historically. But since doing so removes any real meaning from the kanji except their phonetic value, the only reason to do so is because you think kanji are somehow cooler or better than katakana.

Unless you really want to be known as the Horse Master.

[Nanbanjin]

You mean like katakana?

My Japanese instructor "gave" me kanji for my name on one occasion. I also understand that if I had started using them as the regular way to write my name, she would have laughed me out of the room.

Yes, things can be transliterated using ateji, and they were historically. But since doing so removes any real meaning from the kanji except their phonetic value, the only reason to do so is because you think kanji are somehow cooler or better than katakana.

Unless you really want to be known as the Horse Master.

An instructor gave me a zekken with ate-ji and asked me to wear it.
A Japanese sempai also said I should use ate-ji for my zekken.

I have worn my zekken in Japan on countless occasions and nobody has ever batted an eyelid.
Using the zekken does not entirely remove meaning from the kanji, which is why kanji that are appropriate should be selected.

Where did "Horse master" come from, 馬飼?
How does that translate into an English name?

What are your Japanese language qualifications?

[tango]

Neil-sensei -- good point about the ikkyu with the same do with a kamon. hahahaha.. and thanks for the info about rank being of no consequence.
(btw, for whoever asked, same-do is shark skin do)..

I should probably back up a little bit and perhaps defend where my argument on this thread is coming from..

Obviously if one's sensei doesn't have a problem with it (or even suggests/recommends/commands it), then I see little reason to argue anybody about it.

And last but not least..... if it could offend people, why the hell are they selling it in catalogues?!?!

Well, two reasons, I think.

1. Those who are allowed (for whatever reason) to wear them have to order them from someplace I guess, and
2. Those who should not wear them (for whatever reason) are willing to buy them. (example: "stick fighting" schools and such)

As always, it's just my opinion..
tango

[Yellow Savage]

mate you can throw as many references at me and the rest of the guys in this post as you want...at least I won't be the one making it more obvious who is the ignorant nanbanjin i.e WOG hahahha...in fact you'll just be creating more humor for people who actually can actually read and understand kanji (without looking up the internet or asking their Japanese friends) hahahaha....tsss western names in kanji...huhauhauah...go on chuck another reference at me...hahahaha...yeah dude you look sooo COOL WITH Kanji...throw me another link to justify yourself...did someone say WANNABE???

[Yellow Savage]

Nanbanjin...hahaha its actually an insult but anyway...been reading more of your post and I just don't get where the hostility and arrogance comes from??? Looking in the mirror mate, you ain't Japanese or Chinese, so why do you insist on using Kanji...can't you get it through your inflated self-delusion that you are like your name suggests, a foriegner...Japanese or other asians won't say anything to your face because they want to enjoy the humor and the ridiculousness that IS YOU...hahahahaha

PS Having Japanese friends and eating raw fish does NOT mean you are Japanese let alone Asian...get over it!

[Nanbanjin]

...at least I won't be the one making it more obvious who is the ignorant nanbanjin i.e WOG hahahha...

This from a guy who calls himself Yellow Savage

If you and your cultural imperialist mates want to laugh at my zekken it doesn't bother me in the least. Feel free to go right ahead.

I am against the use of Kanji and Katakana on zekken.
Zekken are a means of distinguishing between kendo players so in a country where the Roman alphabet is the norm I think that the Roman alphabet should be adopted.
My objection here is that the use of ate-ji is being construed as something that is uncool. Also the arguments that have been used are incorrect.

If you want to argue that using Kanji on zekken is uncool just say "you shouldn't use kanji on your zekken because my mates and I think it is uncool" or "Chinese people think it is uncool (this may well be the case)". Fundamentally that's where you are coming from right?

Does Sano-sensei have an opinion about this?

[Nanbanjin]

Also, if using Kanji on zekken is culturally insensitive to Chinese or other people I would reconsider my zekken, the same way that I would never climb Uluru now that I know that this is insensitive to the Koori people of that region.
I don't claim to know that much about Chinese culture.

If it is just you and your mates who think you have the right to dictate what is cool and what is not then laugh away. You probably all listen to Insync and Boys to Men and would laugh at the music I listen to as well, as I would at yours.

[Yowai]

Hi. Yellow Savage is absolutely correct.

ateji was used to reject foreign elements in Japanese culture during the pre-war era. They aren't commonly used anymore because they are a pain to read and more importantly the Japanese have unfortunetely stopped rejecting English.

I am against the use of Kanji and Katakana on zekken.
Do you even understand what you are saying anymore? Idiot.

Now excuse me as I am reading through a 珈琲型録 from 亜米利加. Have fun at your 剣道倶楽部.

[Nanbanjin]

Hi. Yellow Savage is absolutely correct.

ateji was used to reject foreign elements in Japanese culture during the pre-war era. They aren't commonly used anymore because they are a pain to read and more importantly the Japanese have unfortunetely stopped rejecting English.


Do you even understand what you are saying anymore? Idiot.

Now excuse me as I am reading through a 珈琲型録 from 亜米利加. Have fun at your 剣道倶楽部.
I love this. You are saying that my instructor who gave me my zekken and told me to wear it doesn't know anything about Japanese.

My argument against using both ate-ji and katakana is the only argument I have
ever heard from a Japanese person on the subject, and I agree with it as an argument though I don't take the issue that seriously.

I have asked three different Japanese people about this in the last three days and the concensus is that using ate-ji is fine in the context of kendo. Have any of you bothered to ask a Japanese person about any of this?

I think you guys take yourselves far too seriously.

[Nanbanjin]

Damn, I took Yowai's post seriously.
If only I had read his other posts first I would have realised that he is just a wanker.

[Yowai]

I have asked three different Japanese people about this in the last three days and the concensus is that using ate-ji is fine in the context of kendo. Have any of you bothered to ask a Japanese person about any of this?


Has it ever occurred to you that there are Japanese people on this forum? I am sure the three people that you asked were just being nice. The general consensus is that foreign names written in kanji is funny. Please stick to katakana which requires less strokes, is easier to read, and is less stupid.

Damn, I took Yowai's post seriously.
If only I had read his other posts first I would have realised that he is just a wanker.
I will try to be less serious then.

[Nanbanjin]

Has it ever occurred to you that there are Japanese people on this forum? I am sure the three people that you asked were just being nice. The general consensus is that foreign names written in kanji is funny. Please stick to katakana which requires less strokes, is easier to read, and is less stupid.


I will try to be less serious then.

My position is that I accept that some Japanese people might find ate-ji unusual, but that generally people don't get that worked up about the issue. I wear a zekken with ate-ji because I was given it and told to wear it and I respect the person who gave it to me more than I respect people like you. My Sensei gave me my zekken so he obviously doesn't have a problem with ate-ji.
What I don't like is people like you who think you are better than everyone and have a right to speak on behalf of all Japanese people just because you have some background in Japanese language.
Just because I am Australian I don't claim to represent all Australians.
I also don't like the way people like you and Yellow Savage think you have some kind of right to laugh at the names that people use for themselves simply because you think you know more about everyone else about what being cool is all about.

[mystic_kendoka]

i wldnt say its insultive tho.. just strange... it would be like an asian, goin to britain or sth, with mental retard written on his shirt... the british wouldnt find it insultive in any way, so why would an asian be insulted by someone using kanji on their zekken?

[Yowai]

...QUOTE]
Ateji words are devised at the national level. If a foreign word needs to be expressed in a Japanese alphabet, katakana is used, not some chaotic arrangement of "neat looking" kanji that only the writer and writer's peers will understand.

[quote]I also don't like the way people like you and Yellow Savage think you have some kind of right to laugh at the names that people use for themselves simply because you think you know more about everyone else about what being cool is all about.
We're laughing at the silliness that you chose for yourselves. I don't represent anything, certainly not Japan.

What the hell is this business with the term "cool"? Are you from some alleyway of New York? (or should I say 紐育?)

[Shiro]

Looks like my thread touched some sensitive points...... :p

Just to make things clear:
- I honestly don't know much about how you write western names in a japanese way. But it is my sensei who asked me if I needed a zekken before he left for Japan, so I think it will be made the proper way.
Note that the zekken at my dojo have both the japanese version and the roman version of the name and that the name of the dojo is written in roman.

- If I knew just asking about kamons on a do would have triggered such childish debates, I would have forgotten the whole idea!
Damn! Some people in this thread REALLY need to grow up! If you would have told me in a normal and civilised way that wearing a kamon might be insensitive to some people it would have been sooooo easy....

In the end, you shouldn't get offended, but the people who really have something to do with the kamon I might or might not wear!

[tango]

Not trying to add to the argument on kanji/ateji/katakana for zekken, I provide the following link for everyone's reading pleasure..

I thought it was kinda interesting..

http://www.kanjilearn.com/jws/meaning.php

[Nanbanjin]

i wldnt say its insultive tho.. just strange... it would be like an asian, goin to britain or sth, with mental retard written on his shirt... the british wouldnt find it insultive in any way, so why would an asian be insulted by someone using kanji on their zekken?
But a tee shirt with "No fear" on it is not so strange right?
I have never seen a person wearing a tee shirt or with "mental retard" or anything similar.
Following your argument if you wore a zekken with 馬鹿 or 知遅れ or 知的障害者 it would be weird, and yes I agree that it would. I don't wear a zekken with any of these things written on it. I have something more appropriate.

A zekken is not a tee shirt anyway, it is something worn in a specific setting. It is not something you wear down the street, it is something that you don't wear outside the dojo.

I am just trying to get an argument out of one of you guys that doesn't amount to cultural elitism.

[Nanbanjin]

Not trying to add to the argument on kanji/ateji/katakana for zekken, I provide the following link for everyone's reading pleasure..

I thought it was kinda interesting..

http://www.kanjilearn.com/jws/meaning.php
Thanks for the constructive input Tango.

[Yowai]

I am just trying to get an argument out of one of you guys that doesn't amount to cultural elitism.

And you're devoted to cultural obsession. Keep daydreaming that there is something magical and special about Japanese culture and language.

[Shiro]

I don't wear a zekken with any of these things written on it. I have something more appropriate.

What do you have on your zekken?

[Nanbanjin]

What do you have on your zekken?
To be perfectly honest I am a little embarassed about my zekken.
My real name is Peter, so finding a good character for ピ poses difficulty.
My instructor in Japan though really hard and came up with 斐田.
I know this is 斐 from 甲斐, and 田 from 田んぼ so save me the explanation. I know that this means nothing in particular, but that my sensei was happy with it and that is good enought for me.
That was when I was at high school in Japan. The guys in my kendo club thought the instructor should have tried harder, but they didn't seem to have anything against the use of ate-ji per se.

My sempai when I was with a Japanese company in Japan came up with 比井多. This means nothing in particular either, but I think the characters were chosen for balance rather than anything else. They certainly don't mean "mental retard" or anything like that.

The guys at my high school were pretty picky about names. I remember that they didn't like the names my host family gave their children because of the stroke numerology or the balance between the given and surnames or something. And that was for Japanese names!

[Nanbanjin]

What do you have on your zekken?
What do you have on yours?

[Nanbanjin]

And you're devoted to cultural obsession. Keep daydreaming that there is something magical and special about Japanese culture and language.
There are good and interesting things about all cultures.
I find Japanese culture, including kanji interesting. I'm not one for the mystical zen philosiphy thing though, if that's what you mean.

[Yowai]

I don't want you to enter shock or cardiac arrest but can I make a radical suggestion? How about ピーター? Or maybe your last name in katakana?

I am just offering a fair suggestion since your current translation is quite inappropriate. 斐田 means "stupid" and 比井多 is "mental retard." These are implied translations, not literal. You see: people can't understand the above arrangement of kanji. People want to know your name, without having to solve a riddle.

[Nanbanjin]

What do you have on your zekken?
Shiro, I'm with you on the childish debate thing. I am embarassed for letting myself buy into this.

[Shiro]

What do you have on yours?

I don't have it yet :/ I'll get it Friday. as soon as I get it, I'll post a pic of it..... :)

[Nanbanjin]

I don't have it yet :/ I'll get it Friday. as soon as I get it, I'll post a pic of it..... :)
Thanks!
I am going to have to bow out of this argument. Sorry again to anybody I might have insulted along the way.

[Yowai]

Thanks!
I am going to have to bow out of this argument. Sorry again to anybody I might have insulted along the way.

Leaving without offering the reason why ピーター is unacceptable to you? You are too cruel to me.

[Shiro]

This thread has calmed down a little bit :)

[Pokie]

come to think of it, it is a bit interesting...just say 2 opponents facing of each other with 斐田 & 比井多 i.e. stupid and mental retard, I think I'd die laughing..mental retard white stupid, red...this thread is "cool"

[Hiryu]

Bear in mind that you can't wear just any old kamon because you think it looks nice. If your family is Japanese, of course you can wear that one. If your sensei is Japanese, maybe he will give you permission to wear his but that is usually granted later in your kendo career. If neither of those conditions apply, just leave your doh plain.



Sorry to disagree wid ya dere bud, But My understanding is as follows....
At the decline of the Samurai, the only people in JAPAN with Kamon, were Samurai, and Merchant families (Who had to get permission to use one from the local lord). After this time, all families adopted Mon, on their own, without permission, without there families having one previously etc. So whats the difference from that and any of us J.A's White guys, scottish guys etc, adopting one to use? ....NONE, other than were not Japanese nationals.
Get over it Neil.

Maybe since only Japanese People had Japanese Armour and Kendo Armour and only Samourai at that, maybe us non Japanese Nationals should practice w/o ?!


Now if ya look at the MOn, some of the people were so far back in the line, that when they got to the front to pick out their mon, the only things left were the ura side of some plants and flowers. :confused2

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well it's true that noone's going to drag your butt to jail for adopting a mon. But adopting one just because you like it seems silly to me, another one of those deals that has Japanese people rolling their eyes at the Japanophile westerner. Why would you even want one if your family isn't Japanese?

[Grautr]

Damn it ... I knew one of the shops in my favourites sold them.... :) :D ;)


One of the Kendoka in my dojo wears a european style shield bearing his family crest on his do. The transfer is the same size as one of these MON stickers and is a bit more appropriate to him.

Its actually a cool idea.... maybe I'll copy ;)


Hi,
My brother and I are Asatru by religion. Both of us wear the Valknot and so does our father. Although the Valknot is not a true mon I would like to wear it on my armour out of respect for my family, gods and ancestors. Do you know anywhere I could get a tare made up with a personal design?

Cheers,

[Hiryu]

Well it's true that noone's going to drag your butt to jail for adopting a mon. But adopting one just because you like it seems silly to me, another one of those deals that has Japanese people rolling their eyes at the Japanophile westerner. Why would you even want one if your family isn't Japanese?

Yea, OK. If its just silly to you, then why worry about it?
I just don't understand, even after reading all of the posts, why some (Mostly Caucasions) get so hot and bothered by it. When I was getting my zekken, a local sensei selected the kanji for me. Read Nana dan, Nihonjin. They selected KANJI!

I have never had any indication from any Japanese person that they didn't like it, were offended by it or were even bothered by it. Now maybe they are laughing at me behind my back, but I dont think so. When I used a newer Japanese character for one of the characters, I had at least three Japanese Nationals tell me that I should use the traditional CHinese character instead of the Japanese as it "Looked Cooler" Their terms not mine.

So do people have issues with only westerners adopting a JAPANESE MON? or is it okay to design your own and have it put on? Isn't this decoration the same thing as selecting a color or design for your do to personalize it?

Seems that the people that it bothers need to concentrate on their own kendo and not on Other Peoples DO! DOH!

[Nanbanjin]

[QUOTE=Hiryu]Yea, OK. If its just silly to you, then why worry about it?
I just don't understand, even after reading all of the posts, why some (Mostly Caucasions) get so hot and bothered by it. When I was getting my zekken, a local sensei selected the kanji for me. Read Nana dan, Nihonjin. They selected KANJI!

I have never had any indication from any Japanese person that they didn't like it, were offended by it or were even bothered by it. Now maybe they are laughing at me behind my back, but I dont think so. When I used a newer Japanese character for one of the characters, I had at least three Japanese Nationals tell me that I should use the traditional CHinese character instead of the Japanese as it "Looked Cooler" Their terms not mine./QUOTE]
I knew that somebody out there would understand this.
I started a thread about this on a Japanese site and surprise surprise nobody was against Kanji zekken. Opinions are that it doesn't matter one way or the other or that it looks good and shows that you are dedicated to Japanese kendo.
The argument against was that other foriegn people will find them hard to read.
Because of this one guy said that maybe you should only use them in Japan.

One respondant said that kanji that directly trainslate a name should not be used. So Green should not use the Chinese character for Green etc.
Westerners tend to use first names for zekken and it was noted that under IKF rules these zekken are inappropriate for shiai.

When I said that Chinese people seem to be dead against the use by Westerners of kanji on zekken the response on the Japanese side was genuine surprise.
I am assuming that "Yellow Sagave" is of Chinese heritage.

[Hiryu]

[
I knew that somebody out there would understand this.
I started a thread about this on a Japanese site and surprise surprise nobody was against Kanji zekken. Opinions are that it doesn't matter one way or the other or that it looks good and shows that you are dedicated to Japanese kendo.
The argument against was that other foriegn people will find them hard to read.
Because of this one guy said that maybe you should only use them in Japan.

One respondant said that kanji that directly trainslate a name should not be used. So Green should not use the Chinese character for Green etc.
Westerners tend to use first names for zekken and it was noted that under IKF rules these zekken are inappropriate for shiai.

When I said that Chinese people seem to be dead against the use by Westerners of kanji on zekken the response on the Japanese side was genuine surprise.
I am assuming that "Yellow Sagave" is of Chinese heritage.

Yea, I here ya. I still think its just some Western Know-It_all_Japan-O-phile types that feel we should not use kanji.
The responses to my Kanji from JA's (Japanese Americans) has been mostly asking what the pronounciation is and pointing out that it isn't a perfect phonetic match for my name. OK.
All comments from Japanese Nationals, both visiting and on my three visits over there have been of the "Oooh Nice Kanji, I like your selection" type of comments. and the suggestions of switching from the Japanese "tobu" to the Old Chinese "Ryu" Kanji. OK, now everyone in in CA. who's been practicing for over 12 years knows who I am....well maybe.

[Nanbanjin]

Yea, I here ya. I still think its just some Western Know-It_all_Japan-O-phile types that feel we should not use kanji.
The responses to my Kanji from JA's (Japanese Americans) has been mostly asking what the pronounciation is and pointing out that it isn't a perfect phonetic match for my name. OK.
All comments from Japanese Nationals, both visiting and on my three visits over there have been of the "Oooh Nice Kanji, I like your selection" type of comments. and the suggestions of switching from the Japanese "tobu" to the Old Chinese "Ryu" Kanji. OK, now everyone in in CA. who's been practicing for over 12 years knows who I am....well maybe.
My experience exactly!

[Nanbanjin]

BTW, you are lucky with a name like Hiryu because you have heaps of good characters to choose from.

[Shiro]

I still think its just some Western Know-It_all_Japan-O-phile types that feel we should not use kanji.

Indeed! I haven't seen any japanese person on this post!

Anyway, about the mon.... I thought of using the Takeda kamon because I am inspired by Takeda Shingen's motto (wich is "swift as the wind, quiet as the forest, fierce as fire, immovable as a mountain").

Any objections? :p

[Hiryu]

BTW, you are lucky with a name like Hiryu because you have heaps of good characters to choose from.


Yea, Like Noon School !!!! :silly: :ermm:

[Hiryu]

Indeed! I haven't seen any japanese person on this post!

Anyway, about the mon.... I thought of using the Takeda kamon because I am inspired by Takeda Shingen's motto (wich is "swift as the wind, quiet as the forest, fierce as fire, immovable as a mountain").

Any objections? :p


Hey Shiro, If it inspires you, do it!

I know plenty of J.A. Sensei who do not know what their family Mon is, or if they even have one... so they select one. Id like some of these complainers to go tell them it's silly for them to wear them! They might find out what silly really looks like. ALso, ask many Japanese how far back their family has posessed a kamon, and you just might embarass (ok sp.) them. Uhh er, uh only three or four generations.

Shiro, You in Germany ? Where ? I go to Germany, Schweinfurt
now and then for Business. Well, maybe not, I doubt you d be up at 1:00am on this forum.

[Shiro]

Hey Shiro, If it inspires you, do it!

I know plenty of J.A. Sensei who do not know what their family Mon is, or if they even have one... so they select one. Id like some of these complainers to go tell them it's silly for them to wear them! They might find out what silly really looks like. ALso, ask many Japanese how far back their family has posessed a kamon, and you just might embarass (ok sp.) them. Uhh er, uh only three or four generations.

Shiro, You in Germany ? Where ? I go to Germany, Schweinfurt
now and then for Business. Well, maybe not, I doubt you d be up at 1:00am on this forum.

That's the way I think of it..... Especially with kamon like the Takeda or other great clans.

And I'm from Belgium and up at 1 am..... :)
But I was about to go to sleep.... so good night/day to everybody! :D

[Yowai]

Hey dickheads.

The zekken is used to identify yourself to others. It is not a place to write a riddle. Either write the name in English or use katakana.

Do you think people will laugh at you in front of your face? Everyone is being nice to you concerning your zekken; they don't want to hurt your feeling.

[Claidheamh]

Hey dickheads.

The zekken is used to identify yourself to others. It is not a place to write a riddle. Either write the name in English or use katakana.

Do you think people will laugh at you in front of your face? Everyone is being nice to you concerning your zekken; they don't want to hurt your feeling.
Hey dickheads.

The zekken is used to identify yourself to others. It is not a place to write a riddle. Either write the name in English or use katakana.

Do you think people will laugh at you in front of your face? Everyone is being nice to you concerning your zekken; they don't want to hurt your feeling.

my my, such a personality does not belong in a dojo. This guy reminds me of some trailor trash hick that has no controllover his mouth or actions.

Its people like this that get upset over inconsequential little things. I'd hate to see him loose his temper when he gets his kote popped hard! What a looser.

I have to agree with the last few posts, before Yowai, you know, the person with their shorts in a bunch. .
I look at it like this. I practice in the U.S. 80% of the kenshi here don't read Kanji. Therefore I spell it in english with Roman letters on top of the kanji...this is for people like Yowai, who can't read kanji, or who would wet his pants if he cant accept this small insignificant use of kanji. I figure if people are going to force me to write it in a language I can't even read, Ill use any damn characters I want.
If they can deliver a sportsmanship pledge in Japanese at a US tournament and don't also do it in English, If business is sometimes conducted in Japanese instead of English, If I pay good money to go to an AMERICAN ZONE Shimpan semianr, and 80% is untranslated into english and your looked at with scorn when you ask for a translation, Then I can use any damn Kanji I want!

[orayakab]

Do you think people will laugh at you in front of your face? Everyone is being nice to you concerning your zekken; they don't want to hurt your feeling.

I think people are laughing at you.

Orayakab, U

[itazura]

my my, such a personality does not belong in a dojo. This guy reminds me of some trailor trash hick that has no controllover his mouth or actions.

Its people like this that get upset over inconsequential little things. I'd hate to see him loose his temper when he gets his kote popped hard! What a looser.

I have to agree with the last few posts, before Yowai, you know, the person with their shorts in a bunch. .
I look at it like this. I practice in the U.S. 80% of the kenshi here don't read Kanji. Therefore I spell it in english with Roman letters on top of the kanji...this is for people like Yowai, who can't read kanji, or who would wet his pants if he cant accept this small insignificant use of kanji. I figure if people are going to force me to write it in a language I can't even read, Ill use any damn characters I want.
If they can deliver a sportsmanship pledge in Japanese at a US tournament and don't also do it in English, If business is sometimes conducted in Japanese instead of English, If I pay good money to go to an AMERICAN ZONE Shimpan semianr, and 80% is untranslated into english and your looked at with scorn when you ask for a translation, Then I can use any damn Kanji I want!


Boy do I have to go along with this.

I wouldn't think of having a nafuda with kanji only. I'm not from Japan and as stated above most outside Japan can't read it anyway. Kanji, katakana, who cares. If the Japanese are passing out nafudas with kanji on it then that's good enough for me. I can ask around my distant family but I don't think there's too much laughing going on.

At least at this last US seminar we had Sumi sensei and didn't have to put up with a bunch of bad translation. I listen to the Japanese explanation at these things and then hear the translation and think what about the rest of it. I feel sorry for people that don't understand the Japanese.

As far as mons go, so what. My favorite is the guy in SoCal (name withheld) with the Klingon mon. The Europeans have had this stuff for hundreds of years too. There's nothing in the rulebook about it except at the world taikai they have to have english on the nafuda.

You want a laugh go look at this: www.engrish.com . There's the other side of the coin.

[Nanbanjin]

I posted this in another thread but will include it here because I think it is relevant.

The following is a translation of one of the many Japanese opinions I have received on the topic. I am sure you will find it interesting....
Will include the original Japanese first.

************************************************** ***
************************************************** ***

そんなことありませんよ。中国では外国人の名前も全部漢字表記です。新聞、テレビなどでも
、例えばロシアの大統領プーチンさんは“普京”、アメリカのブッシュさんは“布什”、前
大統領のクリントンさんだったら“克林敦”というふうに。ただしこれらはそれぞれの名前を
中国語読みで当てたものですが。とにかく中国人は命名の名人で、外国から来た物には、原音
に近い音の漢字や、もともとの意味を漢字で置き換えて中国語化しています。そして、これが
正式な名称として登記されたり、新聞やテレビ報道でもごく当たり前に使用されています。
・・・と、いうことで、漢字を使用することに関しては、常識的に考えて、むしろ何ら問題ない
と思いますよ。中国人ってその辺はとても柔軟にしかも賢く思考できる民族なんです。
また、これを日本に置き換えれば、外国の方の姓名を日本語読みの漢字に置き換えることも
決しておかしなことではありませんね。小泉八雲（ラフガデイオ・ハーン）のように完全に
日本名を名乗る手もありますが、ご自分の両親がつけてくれた大切な名前の音声を残しながら
ご自分が情熱をかけて打ち込まれている剣道の国、日本の文字をそれに当てたからといって、
おかしなことだとは思いません。むしろ親しみを覚えますね。
ただし、国際大会等、ゼッケン等に定めが有る場合はそれに従うべきことは言うまでもありません 。

That's not true (that Chinese people are against the use on kanji for western names).
In China names for foreign people are all expressed in Kanji. In newspapers and on the television, for example President Putin of Rusia's name is expressed as "普京", America's Bush becomes "布什", former President Clinton becomes "克林敦"
etc. However in this case the Chinese reading of the character is used. Anyway, Chinese people are famous for making up names, and they use kanji to change words from overseas into Chinese language using both the sound of the characters and also using kanji that express the meaning of the object. This name is registered as the correct name, and is used as something normal in newspapers and television.
So, if you think about it rationally I think there is really is no problem with using kanji (on your zekken).Chinese are a people who are both flexible and clever in this regard.
Also, applying this to Japanese it is not at all strange to use kanji with Japanese readings for names of foreigners. As is the case for 小泉八雲 (Lafcadio Hearn) you can even change your name to a completely Japanese name, and thus retaini the pronounciation of the name that your parents gave to you while usng Japanese characters. I do not think it is strange for you to represent your name using Japanese kanji which are from the country where the kendo that you are dilligently practicing came from. Doing this moreover helps create a feeling of friendship.

************************************************** *******
************************************************** *******

The above is from a flesh and blood Japanese person.
The problem I have in accepting arguments against using kanji on zekken is that it is often argued that Japanese people are against this type of usage.
This assertion shows the same kind of ignorance that your are accusing us kanji users of. This is what gets on my nerves. The use of kanji per se is something I don't really care that much one way or the other.

The above quote is from a Japanese person.
I hope a Japanese person makes a post for the against argument, or that someone can translate the opinion of a Japanese person as I have done.
Then we will know that some Japansese people are for and some Japanese people are against kanji zekken.
I have a few more real Japanese opinions on this subject to translate if needed.
I enjoy constructive argument so please, argue constructively.

[Yowai]

Stubborn.

Japanese is not the same as Chinese. Japanese != Chinese. Get it?
The Japanese language has a set of characters called KATAKANA. Do you know what KATAKANA is?
You still haven't addressed the issue that you seem to have with "ピーター." I am waiting for you to say that katakana just doesn't look as cool as Japanese radicals. Go ahead and admit that you want to pretend to be a Japanese ninja samurai and katakana simply doesn't fit your Japanese-obsessed personality. Have your name changed into a Japanese name for christ's sake; your zekken will actually have a purpose.

You worship Japanese people and take their opinion as having extra potency. That is another example of your mental disturbance.

[litige]

:You worship Japanese people and take their opinion as having extra potency. That is another example of your mental disturbance.: -yowai

i don't know if you are japanese or american or anything, but the japanese world and traditions are not closed to foreigners. It was a hundred years ago, and since, the world have changed, its time you do. Did you know that there were japanese that aren't Kendoka, and they don't give a damn? and the world doesn't say, they are supposed to learn kendo, they are Japanese, they are samurai bla-bla-bla. why? because a tradition and a lesson is something you receive and pass on, if you want to ignore the tradition, it's ok, right? if you want to adopt it, it's also ok, and it does change anything if the japanese traditions go off-shore because they do good thing to people who accept them if
they don't change it.

I think what you are doing is a kind of cultural-racism, because you think we "steal" traditions.

you are LAME.
where is the ignor button?
or vote kick_player yowai?

[Yowai]

Way to be off-topic.

[litige]

Way to be off-topic.

i was talking about you and your conservative views
and talking about bieng off-topics
the thread here is mon on do.
by the way, you wont change anything to the way of the sword.

[Nanbanjin]

Stubborn.
You worship Japanese people and take their opinion as having extra potency. That is another example of your mental disturbance.

When the argument is about Japanese language the opinion of a Japanese person DOES carry extra weight.

[Shiro]

Litige's totally right.
I think most of the people here study kendo because they feel they are really learning something, not to steal japanese culture.
There are even japanese people who promote kendo in the world. Like the late Nakakura Sensei who held a seminar in Brussels every year. He was 9th dan kendo and iaido and brought a whole group of high ranking sensei to Belgium along with him. Look at this year's event:
http://www.abkf.be/ABKF/nakakura.asp

Japan is a country that fascinates me, but that's not a reason for me to live a 100% like a nihon-jin. I don't study kendo to become japanese, I study kendo because I feel good about the principles of this art.

[litige]

Japan is a country that fascinates me, but that's not a reason for me to live a 100% like a nihon-jin. I don't study kendo to become japanese, I study kendo because I feel good about the principles of this art.

Amen to that!

[Hiryu]

Japan is a country that fascinates me, but that's not a reason for me to live a 100% like a nihon-jin. I don't study kendo to become japanese, I study kendo because I feel good about the principles of this art.


Here here!

Yowai,
Take a flying F1#@ at a rolling donut over a gravel driveway!

In English: Get lost!

[litige]

if he is so conservative, he should not talk english.

[Yowai]

When the argument is about Japanese language the opinion of a Japanese person DOES carry extra weight.

Okay, believe me then.


You still haven't addressed the "ピーター" issue. Stop being a coward and dodging the question.

[Nanbanjin]

Okay, believe me then.


You still haven't addressed the "ピーター" issue. Stop being a coward and dodging the question.
The reason your argument doesn't carry weight is because you are an idiot.

I wear I kanji zekken because it was given to me. If you want me to wear a katakana zekken send me one.

[Yowai]

Calling me an idiot? Hypocrite.

If the only reason you are wearing a kanji zekken is because it was handed to you, why are viciously defending your position? Why would the issue matter to you at all?

[ALI G]

The zekken is used to identify yourself to others. It is not a place to write a riddle. Either write the name in English or use katakana.

Dat muzt B Y youz haz a BIG 'L' shaped Kanji on da zekken..........onz da bottomz itz haz da englizh LUZZA

[Nanbanjin]

Calling me an idiot? Hypocrite.

If the only reason you are wearing a kanji zekken is because it was handed to you, why are viciously defending your position? Why would the issue matter to you at all?
I am defending my position because the person who gave me my zekken was my friend, and because I am right.

[Yowai]

I am defending my position because the person who gave me my zekken was my friend, and because I am right.

Right about what? I am asserting that a zekken should identify the wearer, not act as a play-sheet to draw funky symbols.

[Nanbanjin]

Right about what? I am asserting that a zekken should identify the wearer, not act as a play-sheet to draw funky symbols.
Kanji do identify the wearer. My argument is that from a linguistic point of view katakana is not the only "appropriate" option if you are going to represent your name in Japanese. Most Japanese people will agree with this, even if you don't.

Everybody at my club recognises my zekken anyway. So it does identify the wearer.
Following your argument, only the Roman alphabet should be used in Australia, because otherwise the wearer could not be identified by other westerners. If you want to argue this I don't mind, and I will even agree with you to some extent.

I will not agree however that if you are going to express your name in Japanese that katakana is the only option. This is a fallacy.

[Yowai]

I fully advocate the use of non-Japanese alphabets on zekken. The problem with the zekken is that the shape is too square. English or other non-Chinese related languages prefers more rectangular spaces. English surnames longer than six characters will look ridiculous on a zekken as the font will have to be tiny, and vertical lettering is awkward.

What I don't like is the abuse of kanji when there exists a perfect alternative that exists almost solely to serve this function in question. Zekken in katakana can be read easily by the Japanese and also by foreigners with limited understanding of the language. Foreign name kanji zekken is cryptic to absolutely anyone who encounters it.

Why chose an inferior way of expressing yourself without a rational reason?

[ben]

FWIW I prefer katakana for zekken, but then I have several zekken. The one I wear mostly is 100% roman letters, but I have 100% katakana ones as well, which I found were a great advantage at Summer School in Kitamoto. The sensei there seemed to give me extra instruction at least partly because they could quickly and easily read my name.

I also have a zekken with the kanji transliteration of my surname which I got made many years ago because I love kanji -- I wrote my (fine art) honours thesis on the respresentational potential of ideogrammatic versus phonetic language systems -- but was severely burned to find that the Japanese 'friend' who did the transliteration gave me some historically/culturally questionable kanji. NTS I never wear that zekken.

So now I stick with whatever most easily communicates my name in the country I'm training in. OTOH if you've got a name that morphs into kanji well, then knock yourself out. Just please don't get "Black Dragon", or people WILL laugh at you.

Still the best kendo surname IMHO is "O'Hara". :P

b

[Nanbanjin]

I fully advocate the use of non-Japanese alphabets on zekken. The problem with the zekken is that the shape is too square. English or other non-Chinese related languages prefers more rectangular spaces. English surnames longer than six characters will look ridiculous on a zekken as the font will have to be tiny, and vertical lettering is awkward.

What I don't like is the abuse of kanji when there exists a perfect alternative that exists almost solely to serve this function in question. Zekken in katakana can be read easily by the Japanese and also by foreigners with limited understanding of the language. Foreign name kanji zekken is cryptic to absolutely anyone who encounters it.

Why chose an inferior way of expressing yourself without a rational reason?
Thanks for settling down about this.
My point is that using kanji is not necessarily an "abuse" of kanji.
If so my friend and instructor were both abusing their own language. You might think that the way they used kanji was abuse, but there are many Japanese people who would disagree with you.

My last name means "bunch of flowers" in German and if I chose 花束 that would certainly be an abuse of kanji. You and all other Japanese people would think I was stupid for using this.
Why use a zekken at all? Why don't we just write our names on our tare covers in chalk?

I am about due for a new zekken. I might even get this one done in katakana just to keep people like you happy. If I train with my freind I will use the zekken he have me. I have actually lost the one my instructor gave me fourteen years ago, so I will have to get one of these made up too so I can wear it the next time I train with him.
Problem is if I wear a katakana zekken people might keep on giving me new kanji ones and I will have to wear a different one everywhere I train!

[Hyaku]

Sinz peeps aint puttingz der own family crezt on der boguz....Can youz putza logo sticka on da frontz of da Do?????????

I wuz tinking about putting a Wu-Tang Clan sticka on my Do......Bezidez peoplez not tinking dis iz traditional dis iz not againzt da rulez iz itz?????

Why dont you put an Engliz Schoolz sticker on your Do Then we can all have a laugh :emb:

[Shazzanzzz]

haha, 花束 actually sound pretty cool. I don't really care when people use kanji, but, the correct way is katakana, Japanese write their own name in katakana if it's foreighn, so why should westerners be special?

Doesn't make sense anyways, since western writing system is sound based anyways, not meaning based. And Kanji is chinese, not Japanese, if you want to write in Japanese, in this case, it's Katakana. You would understand i guess if you studied Japanese.

It makes me mad when I see like flying dragon or stuff like that on the zekken though, and it's impossible to tell what people's names are sometimes becuse they write in kanji. Like, i can never guess what your real name is, since it's translated in German. That's the downfall of westerners using kanji. So, at least have english on there too if you're gonna write kanji.

[Hiryu]

Dat muzt B Y youz haz a BIG 'L' shaped Kanji on da zekken..........onz da bottomz itz haz da englizh LUZZA


Hey Ali, Im a buyin ya a beer fer daat one maaan! Meybe tooo!! :D

[Hiryu]

haha, 花束 actually sound pretty cool. I don't really care when people use kanji, but, the correct way is katakana, Japanese write their own name in katakana if it's foreighn, so why should westerners be special?

Doesn't make sense anyways, since western writing system is sound based anyways, not meaning based. And Kanji is chinese, not Japanese, if you want to write in Japanese, in this case, it's Katakana. You would understand i guess if you studied Japanese.

It makes me mad when I see like flying dragon or stuff like that on the zekken though, and it's impossible to tell what people's names are sometimes becuse they write in kanji. Like, i can never guess what your real name is, since it's translated in German. That's the downfall of westerners using kanji. So, at least have english on there too if you're gonna write kanji.

So Shazzz which is it, you don't mind, or you get mad? WHen someones name is Cartwight, Smith, Shoemaker, Carpenter, the name does have meaning. And why shouldn't the person be able to choose the kanji for the meaning rather than having to spell it with katakana for the pronounciation? They will have the english there also.

I had a sensei who chose the kanji for the phonetic (similar, not exact), but wanted nice kanji. Later, another sensei actually offered me one of his zekken with the kanji for Oka saying, oh Hey! were related! I still have it he was a true gentleman.

[Shazzanzzz]

So Shazzz which is it, you don't mind, or you get mad? WHen someones name is Cartwight, Smith, Shoemaker, Carpenter, the name does have meaning. And why shouldn't the person be able to choose the kanji for the meaning rather than having to spell it with katakana for the pronounciation? They will have the english there also.

I had a sensei who chose the kanji for the phonetic (similar, not exact), but wanted nice kanji. Later, another sensei actually offered me one of his zekken with the kanji for Oka saying, oh Hey! were related! I still have it he was a true gentleman.

I really don't know man. I guess it's case by case. Some zekkens are just rediculoius, some are fun and interesting. As long as it's too rediculous, like Sainted Warrior, Super dragon, stuff like that, i don't really care. But, katakana is just plain easier too figure out.

And, i know that Chinese characters are just SOOOOOOOOO much cooler, so, you can't really resist getting them can you. hehe.

[JSchmidt]

Personally, I've found zekkens with both romanji and katakana to be the solution. Japanese seems far more comfortable reading the katakana (no need to guess what the kanji means, nor break their tounges on on pronouncing the romanji) and the romanji means that everyone else can read it :).
On a similar note, when we started up a new dojo in London, the teacher (and the other Japanese members) were pretty adamant on picking an English name for it, rather than the usual fancy Japanese names most dojo's outside Japan uses..simply because we weren't in Japan.
Having said that, if you do have a name that easily translates into kanji, go for it.

Jakob

[Nanbanjin]

Right, that does it! I've had enough. I am burning all my zekken. Whenever I leave a dojo people are going to say "who was that masked man!"
Hi ho silver away!!!

[Shazzanzzz]

Right, that does it! I've had enough. I am burning all my zekken. Whenever I leave a dojo people are going to say "who was that masked man!"
Hi ho silver away!!!

wear a bright pink gi or hakama, or both, people'll know who you are.

[Nanbanjin]

wear a bright pink gi or hakama, or both, people'll know who you are.
Maybe an Australian flag design would do the trick (c.f. I love Americans (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1935))

[Shazzanzzz]

Maybe an Australian flag design would do the trick (c.f. I love Americans (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1935))

yea, i saw that one, but you aren't american

:)

[Nanbanjin]

yea, i saw that one, but you aren't american

:)
We Australians are a creative people. I'm sure we could come up with something just as silly.

[enkorat]

Hello,

I was just browsing on this forum and I thought I would add some information for everyone's consideration.

- Since Japan goes through trends just like every other country, the usage of "katakana" vs. "kanji" to express foreign-origin words have always gone back and forth. Hence why "tabbaco" and "tempura" can and are written both in kanji or katakana.

The same goes for names. My grandmother, who was born in 1901 had a katakana first name. I saw this and asked my father about it when I was a kid, and he mentioned that around that time it was fashionable to give girls katakana names.

Most of the time in Japan, last names when written on things like a phone message board or other things that are informal are usually written in katakana because its easier and faster to read. Also, since a phonetic name can have different kanji, a lot of times a relatively common "coversation starter" in japan is "oh how do you write your name in kanji?"

I don't think that most people in Japan would care either way whether or not a foreign person adopts a Japanese name. Although most people would be curious or flattered or express admiration for the chosen kanji, no one would force you to adopt one, mostly because thats what they used to do in the Japanese colonies before World War II, and has since then become politically incorrect.

That being said, when you name someone in Japan, its often something that requires deep thought and reflection as to what the characters will mean, and how they will reflect on your child in the future. Apparently, if I believe my father, my parents trekked back to Japan before I was born and visited the family graveyard and chose my name by taking several of the characters from the tombstones.

But for all thats worth in kendo, I've seen people do both katakana zekken and kanji zekken. Sure, its easier to read a katakana zekken, but if you're gonna do something like kendo which tends to be one of the more traditional japanese martial arts, and you're willing to do the research or your sensei gives it to you, why not? I've never ever seen an argument break out during practice over someone's zekken. Other things usually are occupying my attention.

Besides, its just a name tag.

As for kamon, unlike european colleges of heraldry, the use of kamon aren't regulated, and there are fewer kamon patterns than there are shield patterns in european heraldry, so many people have the same kamon even if they are not related.

Again its not really that big of a deal which kamon you use, it just tends to end up on things like tombstones, kimono, and paper lamps for the boys and girls day celebrations. When I was younger, I also thought that kamon were really cool. When I visited Japan around that time I went looking for my father's kamon (the son takes the father's and the daughter's take the mothers.) at a department store (its Japan, they've got to have them somewhere at Mitsukoshi! Mitsukoshi has everthing!) thinking they made things like plaques or teacups or some other nifty nicknack (of course what I really wanted was one of those samurai battleflags they have in those NHK taiga-dramas to put on my wall...). When I asked a salewoman, she looked perplexed and thought really hard and politely mentioned that they *might* possibly have something next to the jaijin-yo ukata. Thus I got sent over to the foreign tourist section with all of the souvenirs.

It was rather embarassing.

So yes, kamon mean something, but not that much. No japanese person is going to come up to you and point say "hey that's MY kamon, how dare you steal my ancestral heritage." I would be suprised if they themselves knew which kamon is theirs. Even if you design a new one, there are so many of them and so many variations no one is going to remark that that is a "new" kamon, as long as you follow the design conventions.

And as for picking one, I agree that unless the family was either samurai or nobility, most japanese people "picked" a kamon and a last name at one point in their history.

Course most people in Japan would wonder why you were so obsessed about such old things. I know my relatives found it amusing.

Cheers

[Shiro]

I'm fond of history and Takeda Shingen is one of my "favorite" historical persons, so I just thought of putting his mon on my do.....

But asking where I could get kamon was apparently enough to really piss some people off..... :)

[Khabbi]

Shiro , if you go through life without pissing ppl off , u havent realy lived life :smiley:

Khabbi

[Shiro]

Shiro , if you go through life without pissing ppl off , u havent realy lived life :smiley:

Khabbi

I never said I tried to avoid it all the time.... ;) lol :D

[fudoshin]

learn the ken(sword) do(the way)is your authority,Mon,Kamon,Zekken come from your reputation,tour fighting reputation.to buy 1 is to buy a reputation

with respect
Fudoshin

[Shiro]

Well don't worry, I don't want a mon anymore..... I'm sure most kendoka's won't really care about it but I certainly don't want one annoying guy telling me that I insult something he isn't even related to.

Besides, what the hell has the Takeda kamon to do with reputation in kendo?!
As I said earlier in this thread, I thought about the Takeda kamon because their motto is meaningful to me, not just because it looks fancy......

So to make myself clear: I am NOT putting a kamon on my do.

[Hai_hai]

Well don't worry, I don't want a mon anymore..... I'm sure most kendoka's won't really care about it but I certainly don't want one annoying guy telling me that I insult something he isn't even related to.

Besides, what the hell has the Takeda kamon to do with reputation in kendo?!
As I said earlier in this thread, I thought about the Takeda kamon because their motto is meaningful to me, not just because it looks fancy......

So to make myself clear: I am NOT putting a kamon on my do.

I'm sorry but you haven't made yourself clear enough. Putting a Takeda kamon on your do is just insulting and wrong. Don't do it.

[Hai_hai]

So to make myself clear: I am NOT putting a kamon on my do.

And another thing, do not put any other kamon on your do.

[Hai_hai]

Shiro,
You are such a punk. Don't get yourself into something you can't get yourself out of. Don't put a kamon on your do or any other kendo related item.... unless you want a piece of me. Punk.

[Shiro]

So you're posting 3 postst to say something I was going to do anyway...... :p

[Shiro]

Shiro,
You are such a punk. Don't get yourself into something you can't get yourself out of. Don't put a kamon on your do or any other kendo related item.... unless you want a piece of me. Punk.

What did I do wrong? I haven't done it yet and I think I have the right to consider it, no? Why do you think I asked the question here?

I just expected less childish answers........

[Khabbi]

wow , seem like we have a duell going on , Shiro vs Hai Hai =)

I wouldent worry too much Shiro , Im sure Hai Hai is all talk and no skill


lol

[Shiro]

just another troll..... :)

[Hai_hai]

Go ahead, get your silly kamon and disrespect your sensei, your dojo, the entire international kendo community, the Emporer of Japan, his wife, and all Japanese peoples with your selfish ways.
BE THAT WAY.

[nodaka]

in my oppinion you should not focus so much on you your do looks like, but on your techniqu. things like that are as shadows of the forest. they are empty and miningless

[nodaka]

you have got to be kidding? do you have absolutely no respect for the art?

[mystic_kendoka]

what you are saying is like saying that to call the emperor of japan a human is disrespectful... he is maybe more than the average human, but he IS still human...

they ARE little stickers... what shiro has respect for is what is symbolized by the little stickers... what i mean to say is no matter how great something is, it is still what it is...

[Khabbi]

this is going postal , No need to drag it on , shiro already said he isent gonna get one ,

And im sure the emperor of japan is gonna be hoppin mad when he finds out some dude in Belgium has a Mon on his do , war couldent be far off

Just coz u ask a question on this forum doesent mean u dont "focus on your technique" , usualy u post a messege then check back now and then , it doesent cut in to training ,

"things like that are as shadows of the forest. they are empty and miningless"
actualy , shadows mean alot to painters and photografers , so dont diss shadows =p .

would be fun however to wake up one day reading the paper

"Emperor of Japan declares war on Belguim " goes down in history as "the mon wars "

[enkorat]

Hello,

I recently called Eguchi and they were kind enough to answer my questions regarding kamon. Regardless of your belief in this matter I would like to provide information to everyone so that they know.

At least with Eguchi, kamon service is not on their website but is available if you ask. They have about 100 different pre-made "standard" kamon, and you can request to have a copy of the available kamon designs mailed to you.

The "nice looking" sticker will run $12. To have the kamon painted on will run around $90. To have a new kamon designed, in their words "would be very costly".

Since my kamon is one of the standard designs, I went with the $12 dollar version.

I hope that helps for people who are curious.

respect

[cst]

Design your own family crest...you can make as cool as you like...and use it to represent your family for generations...In the end...getting an generic kumon will not really piss anyone off as bad as you think.