Origin of Samurai

[Karaken]

Does anyone know where the word "Samurai" came from? If you write it in Kanji ( Chinese Character ) and read it, I think it's Bushi.. So I'm thinking you can't write Samurai in Kanji. Is this mean Samurai is pure Japanese word? I think Bushi means Samurai, Yes/No ? Any historical/linguistical background for this ?

Center

[AlexM]

Samurai apparently means "one who serves". That's all I got from the National Geographic article I read recently.

[mingshi]

You watched a bit too much The Last Samurai :D

In Kanji,
Samurai = 侍
Bushi = 武士

I am not sure how the meaning of these Kanji has transformed in Japan, but I can tell you their original/root meaning in a Chinese literal context.

The Kanji of Samurai, as a verb it means "to wait, to serve" etc. As a noun you can interpret it as "Servant/ maid" or "Attendent" etc.

Bushi is quite simple. Bu is the Bu of Budo, meaning "Martial"... While having Shi attached to it means martial-related person, ie. warrior etc. If Shi is attached to X, it normally means X-educated person. For example, Kenshi is a sword dude :) But sometimes it can also be a abbreviation of "soldier". Either way will do in our case here.

BTW Kurosawa's Seven Samurai in Japanese is called Shichinin no Samurai 七人の侍

It is an interesting thing to read dictionaries - not the English-Japanese/Chinese ones - but those give you the meaning and origins of the characters. They must have a English equivalence of that. :rolleyes:

HTH

[Hai_hai]

Does anyone know where the word "Samurai" came from? If you write it in Kanji ( Chinese Character ) and read it, I think it's Bushi.. So I'm thinking you can't write Samurai in Kanji. Is this mean Samurai is pure Japanese word? I think Bushi means Samurai, Yes/No ? Any historical/linguistical background for this ?

Center

The first servant or personal protector was named Samurai. Legend has it, that his brother Fredurai was out getting some firewood and missed his chance and becoming a personal bodyguard for the emporer of Japan

[Karaken]

You watched a bit too much The Last Samurai :D

In Kanji,
Samurai = 侍
Bushi = 武士

I am not sure how the meaning of these Kanji has transformed in Japan, but I can tell you their original/root meaning in a Chinese literal context.

The Kanji of Samurai, as a verb it means "to wait, to serve" etc. As a noun you can interpret it as "Servant/ maid" or "Attendent" etc.

Bushi is quite simple. Bu is the Bu of Budo, meaning "Martial"... While having Shi attached to it means martial-related person, ie. warrior etc. If Shi is attached to X, it normally means X-educated person. For example, Kenshi is a sword dude :) But sometimes it can also be a abbreviation of "soldier". Either way will do in our case here.

BTW Kurosawa's Seven Samurai in Japanese is called Shichinin no Samurai 七人の侍

It is an interesting thing to read dictionaries - not the English-Japanese/Chinese ones - but those give you the meaning and origins of the characters. They must have a English equivalence of that. :rolleyes:

HTH

Normally, there are some relationship in Kanji sounds in China and Japan ( Not always but Bushi will probably sound not too different in China ). It just seems
there are too many syllables in samurai for one Kanji character - what does it sound like in China?

Center.

[Nanbanjin]

Normally, there are some relationship in Kanji sounds in China and Japan ( Not always but Bushi will probably sound not too different in China ). It just seems
there are too many syllables in samurai for one Kanji character - what does it sound like in China?

Center.

Samurai can also be written simply as [ 士 ]
In this case and in the case of [ 侍 ] the reading is the kunyomi, or the Japanese reading.
The Chinese reading or the onyomi for 士 is "shi"
For 侍 the onyomi is "ji"

It would be interesting to hear a native Chinese perspective.

[Karaken]

Samurai can also be written simply as [ 士 ]
In this case and in the case of [ 侍 ] the reading is the kunyomi, or the Japanese reading.
The Chinese reading or the onyomi for 士 is "shi"
For 侍 the onyomi is "ji"

It would be interesting to hear a native Chinese perspective.

Do we know when the term "Samurai" was first used?

Center

[mystic_kendoka]

actually, in this case bu means war, and shi means lord


so it would mean -i think-a warlord or warrior

[Eldritch Knight]

Shi doesn't mean "lord" when spelled 士 so much as it means "earth", indicating that bushi are ground troops.

[AlexM]

Shi doesn't mean "lord" when spelled 士 so much as it means "earth", indicating that bushi are ground troops.

Err... Ground troops? As opposed to what? All those parachuting divisions used in ancient Japan? The Shogun's own airforce? ("Look out! The swallows are coming back for another pecking attack!")

I suppose that you could mean "ground" as opposed to cavalry and archers/artillery (that is to say cheap Portugese muskets). But that would make them "infantry" so to speak... i.e. foot soldiers. "Ground troops" is a modern term (at least in the West).

I'm sceptical that the "士" has anything to do with the notion of "ground troops" or "ground forces" to differentiate them from the other forces available to feudal warlords (which also fight on the ground).

[Kent Enfield]

Shi doesn't mean "lord" when spelled 士 so much as it means "earth", indicating that bushi are ground troops.You're confusing 土 (dou/tsuchi) and 士 (shi). The former means dirt or earth. The second means gentleman or scholar, or is often an abreviation of bushi in compounds.

[slidercrank]

Samurai can also be written simply as [ 士 ]
In this case and in the case of [ 侍 ] the reading is the kunyomi, or the Japanese reading.
The Chinese reading or the onyomi for 士 is "shi"
For 侍 the onyomi is "ji"

It would be interesting to hear a native Chinese perspective.
In Mandarin Chinese, 士 and 侍 have the same pronounciation, namely, shi4 (the forth tone). However, Mandarin Chinese is far from the ancient Chinese that Japanese emissaries heard when they came to China during the Tang dynasty. I understand that the present day southern Chinese dialects spoken in Guangdong and Fujian (as well as Hakka, a dialect spoken by Chinese nobles and intellectuals who were driven to southern China by the northern barbarian invaders during the Song dynasty) are more similar to the ancient Chinese. Thus, Tang poetries should be read with those dialects than with Mandarin.

[xvikingx]

Sorry I don't remember exactly which book I got this from, so I can't give reference, or quote it word for word. But as I recall...

According to Shinto legend elemental gods would give warriors supernatural weapons. One of these warriors, Prince Yamamoto (who would later be a model for future samurai), was given a sword called the "Cloud Cluster" to fight back the Ainu. I guess his father (the Emperor) was the first to apply the title/term shogun (将軍）,which litterally means barbarian-subdueing general.

I felt kind of gave a good feeling about the origin (or beginning of the need for) samurai or warriors.

[kawa]

Shi doesn't mean "lord" when spelled 士 so much as it means "earth", indicating that bushi are ground troops.


Hum.... I don't think you are Japanese, Korean or Chinese???

土 = earth
士 = Person or person with good knowledge of...

Look at them carefully!

[ZrJn89]

Does anyone know where the word "Samurai" came from? If you write it in Kanji ( Chinese Character ) and read it, I think it's Bushi.. So I'm thinking you can't write Samurai in Kanji. Is this mean Samurai is pure Japanese word? I think Bushi means Samurai, Yes/No ? Any historical/linguistical background for this ?

Center
samurai originats from the word "saburai" which literally means to serve. The word dates back to the eight century AD when the emperor ruled directly.

[OSatsu Jin]

Samurai came alot later. What people refer to as samurai today were actually called either as said above. Bushi....or they were also refered to as Buke. It depends on the era you are refering to.

Samurai was anyone who served a daimyo, emperor....shogun...ect.

John

[Zaphiel]

yep.....and bushi is a warrior.....guess where to term bushido comes from....and you know the bushido was the way of the samurai/warrior.

[Moduz]

http://www.thejapanesepage2.com/kanji/kk181.htm

Here are some Kanji interpretations.

[Twobitmage]

as for the actual history, I suggest the book "heavenly warriors"

the purpose of the book is more to disprove the common conception that samurai=japanese version of the european knights. But in the first few chapters there is ALOT of information on the origins of the japanese warrior starting from a nearly prehistoric time till about the tenth century.

[Akai Bushi]

The samurai originated during the Heian period(794-1185). They were warriors bound together by a loose semi-family relationship. Many of them were hired by nobles to protect their fiefs. The actual military of Japan though during the Heian period were known as Heishi, conscripted soldiers, basically peasants. That prooved to be ineffective, so lords moved more toward using thugs(samurai) to protect their land. And that is the beginnings of what we now know as the samurai.

[munenmuso]

well I've read from some other text that it came from the word "saburau" or to serve someone and someone earlier posted it as "saburai" with the same translation.

[jessedy]

Does anyone know where the word "Samurai" came from? If you write it in Kanji ( Chinese Character ) and read it, I think it's Bushi.. So I'm thinking you can't write Samurai in Kanji. Is this mean Samurai is pure Japanese word? I think Bushi means Samurai, Yes/No ? Any historical/linguistical background for this ?

Center

Here's some perspective from a native Chinese. Clearly, Samurai is written as "Shi" (侍), in Chinese (ancient Chinese or not, it doesn't matter) it means exactly the same as 士. Originally these two words mean someone who serve and protect their masters. The masters are usually government officials.

If you look at the board of a Chinese Chess, 侍and士 are right beside the General of the army. It would be incorrect to interpret Shi or Samurai as simply soldiers because they don't usually go out and fight; instead they are always on their positions to protect someone.

BTW, if you can't read the characters above, turn your page encoding to "Chinese simplified".

[bobdonny]

you realise how old this thread was right? ;)

welcome to the boards :)

[Hisham]

Welcome Jessedy, although this thread is an old one, my understanding of the word samurai was incomplete, i only knew about the serving part, thanks to your clarification i just understood a story about a samurai who instead of staying on guard near his lord went to face the enemies that were coming at them, he defeated the attackers but was rewarded with banishment from the clan. If anyone is interested, it's in one of the lone wolf and cub manga chapters and also in the movies.

[T.Lee]

The first servant or personal protector was named Samurai. Legend has it, that his brother Fredurai was out getting some firewood and missed his chance and becoming a personal bodyguard for the emporer of Japan


oh dear god... clean up in aisle 9! coffee spilled all over pants!

fredurai... ROFL!!!!!!

:bandit:

[splice]

If you look at the board of a Chinese Chess, 侍and士 are right beside the General of the army. It would be incorrect to interpret Shi or Samurai as simply soldiers because they don't usually go out and fight; instead they are always on their positions to protect someone.


Are you seriously drawing a conclusion about what samurai are based on the behaviour of chinese chess pieces? Dear lord... I hope you realise that you're on shaky ground here.

[tgsfg]

Are you seriously drawing a conclusion about what samurai are based on the behaviour of chinese chess pieces? Dear lord... I hope you realise that you're on shaky ground here.

The Samurai are actually from "Samurang." The Samurang were super soldiers from Korea, that did things like flying and creating air blades. They later went to Japan and taught them how to sword fight. The Japanese couldn't pronounce samurang very well, so they said, "samurai." The Chinese characters were also invented in Korea, but we'll discuss that later.

[Hisham]

Are you seriously drawing a conclusion about what samurai are based on the behaviour of chinese chess pieces? Dear lord... I hope you realise that you're on shaky ground here.

Reread his post but from the beguining this time, it seems that you've skiped the first part.

[splice]

Reread his post but from the beguining this time, it seems that you've skiped the first part.

I did. I had. This is a thread about the origin of the term samurai, how it's written, homonyms, etc? Jessedy's first paragraph talks about that, and I have no issue with it. But the paragraph about chinese chess pieces and how that means samurai aren't "simply soldiers because they don't usually go out and fight; instead they are always on their positions to protect someone."? That, as far as I see, has nothing to do with the origin of the term samurai, nor any kind of relevance to the subject.

Unless it's some kind of argument that samurai were named after chinese chess pieces. Which still doesn't make much sense to me. Perhaps you'd like to explain, seeing as I'm obviously missing something?

[Hisham]

Unless it's some kind of argument that samurai were named after chinese chess pieces. Which still doesn't make much sense to me. Perhaps you'd like to explain, seeing as I'm obviously missing something?

If i'm not mistaken, he is saying that based on the original meaning of the symbols which make up the word samurai, the fonction of the latter should be like those two chinese chess pieces. That's what made me think about the story i mentioned.

The Question (which might be a stupid one but since i'm no expert in japanese military history, i'll ask it anyway) is were all the japanese soldiers of a daimio (whatever there rank) called samurai?

[shin nagakura]

According to the most famous Japanese dictionary called 'KOJIEN', samurai means bushi that by the Middle Ages it is said to be a social position distinguished from ordinary people and it is estimated as a special position relating to riding horses, clothes and punishment.
On the contrary, bushi means that generally speaking they would learn martial arts and be engaged in military affairs. From the professional people's(who make a living for martial arts) point of view, they are the social class who reigned from HEIAN era to EDO era in Japan.
I am not so good at English that I can't make myself in English for you. But after all most Japanese think that busi is as good as samurai.

[D.Benton]

I'm no expert either, but I happen to be reading Stephen Turnbull's book "The Samurai A military history". He proposes that... "Supporters of landowners called themselves samurai....The original samurai had no military conotation, but the definition of a samurai changed considerably throughout the history of Japan."

That is one view of the word samurai, there are others. There are several very interesting scholarly works in English that address various topics in relation to samurai, Turnbull's is but one. (well, he has published a few other items on the samurai and Japan). I'd reccomend it, but there are so many sources...have you tried ....wikipedia? :D

[Hisham]

According what ShinNagakura and D.Benton have stated, the meaning of samurai has in fact changed depending on the era it was used in. Thanks for sharing guys. And D.Benton, wikipedia should've been named weakipedia:D, i'd rather read one of Turnbull's or any other expert's books instead of wikiquoting.

[Karaken]

For the record, my question was more on the origin of the word "Samurai" than the origin of the Japanese Warriors. It doesn't sound like Japanese to me. Can anyone point out any Japnese words that are similar?

[Kingofmyrrh]

For the record, my question was more on the origin of the word "Samurai" than the origin of the Japanese Warriors. It doesn't sound like Japanese to me. Can anyone point out any Japnese words that are similar?
There's a lengthy description here:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BE%8D

Basically it comes from the verb さぶらふ (saburou) which means to protect or comply. The article states that this can be further traced back to さもらふ　(samorou), but in essence these are just mutations of a single word. Syllables beginning with "m" and "b" have been swapped back and forth a lot in the history of Japanese language - for example 煙　(smoke) is read as けむり　(kemuri) these days, but as けぶり　(keburi) in the 14th century (and at other times as well, most likely, I just can't say for sure as I haven't been quite bored enough to look into it).

[Karaken]

There's a lengthy description here:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BE%8D

Basically it comes from the verb さぶらふ (saburou) which means to protect or comply. The article states that this can be further traced back to さもらふ　(samorou), but in essence these are just mutations of a single word. Syllables beginning with "m" and "b" have been swapped back and forth a lot in the history of Japanese language - for example 煙　(smoke) is read as けむり　(kemuri) these days, but as けぶり　(keburi) in the 14th century (and at other times as well, most likely, I just can't say for sure as I haven't been quite bored enough to look into it).

That makes sense. Thanks KF..

[D.Benton]

Originally posted by Karaken
For the record, my question was more on the origin of the word "Samurai" than the origin of the Japanese Warriors.

My sincere apologies for misunderstanding the nature and intent of your question. I thought you were looking also for historical information as well.
Originally posted by Karaken
I think Bushi means Samurai, Yes/No ? Any historical/linguistical background for this ?

Sorry to hijack a revived thread. :redface:

[yoroikabuto]

There's a lengthy description here:
Syllables beginning with "m" and "b" have been swapped back and forth a lot in the history of Japanese language - for example 煙　(smoke) is read as けむり　(kemuri) these days, but as けぶり　(keburi) in the 14th century (and at other times as well, most likely, I just can't say for sure as I haven't been quite bored enough to look into it).

I have failed to display my post.It's second time!
I agree with kingofmyrrh-san.:wink:
Acording to one hypothesis,(*)Miyako dialect was brought to northern part by two paths after 8th century.One was the Pacific Ocean side,and another was the Japan sea side.The PO dialect had changed a lot,but JS dialect had kept the original Miyako dialect for a long time.One of the example,In Toyama(JS) dialect today,"cold" is saBUi,not saMui.Of course,"smoky"is keBui,not keMui.
Anyway,Chosing words is one of the way to tell one's image.The words Samurai and Bushi are almost same meanings today,but the image is different for each person,I think.
So I want to ask people in KW which words you usualy use,and what image you have on each word,thank you.

(*)Miyako means capital city in an aristocrat time.(like Nara or Kyoto)

[Hisham]

Yoroikabuto-san, glad to see you back on KW.

So I want to ask people in KW which words you usualy use,and what image you have on each word,thank you.

As far as i'm concerned, the first time i heard of the bushi and samurai words, i didn't make any distinction between the two of them but after a while i understood that samurai included the meaning "to serve", now i make a difference between the two words since i didn't have any "update" about the word bushi which for me only means warrior. And i am talking about the litteral meaning.

[D.Benton]

Originally posted by yoroikabuto
So I want to ask people in KW which words you usualy use,and what image you have on each word,thank you.

For me, the term Samurai is different than the term Bushi and it also depends on the historical context. If Samurai is used for any person after the Meiji Restoration, I would probably think in terms of the descendants of Samurai. Prior to that it depends on the era; in reference to the Tokugawa era I view the Samurai as generally more refined warriors, educated, and well-rounded due to social circumstances and since many of them acted in some official capactiy of adminstration and governance. Before unification, I view the Samurai as warriors that were involved in a complicated master/vassal relationship where they were provided with resources for loyal service and proven martial skills.

My thoughts are similar when considering the term Bushi; during the rule of the Tokugawa, any historical references might indicate a difference in status between a general warrior<Bushi> and a distinguished and skilled fighting man in service of a particular household or clan<Samurai>. Prior to that the Bushi were certainly an important battlefield component, and most certainly warrior/fighting men of skill. I believe that Bushi does not imply the same type of master/vassal relationship most often associated with Samurai.

I feel that it depends on the use of the term and the period in history that is discussed, and I suspect that most scholars or experts on the Samurai could rationalize and explain a difference in those two terms far better than I have.

[Hisham]

Update:
Since i had not much to do at work, i started rereading Kenji Tokitsu's articles (on his webpage) about the master swordsmen, he included an explanation about the word samurai which according to him it started to be used in the 10th century to describe the bushi that came to the capital to act as bodyguards to the noble cast members, after that it became common to the people of the other classes of society to call the warriors as samurai but the latter did make a distinction between a simple bushi and a samurai for the reasons D.Benton mentioned.