Response to Jodan

[Hanmi]

Okay, I'm sure this one has been discussed, but I am inquiring about a good kamae in response to an opponent assuming Jodan kamae.

What I have been doing (since this is all I know) is to adapt the same position as the shidachi in Gohonme (Kata 5).

I remain in Chudan, however I aim my kissaki at his hidari kote, and from there, I will:

1) attack his hidari kote,
2) attack his men (and charge through him so that I am too close for him to make an effect point)
3) perform kaeshi waza (men or do) when I am not fast enough to strike first.
4) Tsuki is not an option at my level

Am I on the right track? Any tips?

[Geordie Bruiser]

Many years ago I attended a Seminar taken by Takatera Sensei who was chief instructor to the Japanese Emporer's Imperial Guard!!! (So as you can imagine he was pretty damn good!!!)

He taught us a great way to fight against Jodan!!!

When your opponent takes Jodan Kamae point your kensen towards "his" left elbow and keep moving round to your right, by doing this he cannot see your kensen. This means you are able to get a lot closer without him realising, it also means he cannot attack your kote and if he attacks men it makes doing Oji waza a lot easier.
But this only works if you keep moving right all the time, if you stop he will be able to see your Kensen.

[Hanmi]

I will definitely give it a shot and let you know about my success, thanks!

[hugo]

Many years ago I attended a Seminar taken by Takatera Sensei who was chief instructor to the Japanese Emporer's Imperial Guard!!! (So as you can imagine he was pretty damn good!!!)

He taught us a great way to fight against Jodan!!!

When your opponent takes Jodan Kamae point your kensen towards "his" left elbow and keep moving round to your right, by doing this he cannot see your kensen. This means you are able to get a lot closer without him realising, it also means he cannot attack your kote and if he attacks men it makes doing Oji waza a lot easier.
But this only works if you keep moving right all the time, if you stop he will be able to see your Kensen.

I second the motion!
This technique not only works for the reasons previously mentioned, but it also forces the Jodan player to continuously change his footing in order to rotate.

[kurisu]

If tsuki is not an option at your level, then the guy shouldn't be using jodan against you. If he is using jodan, the tuski is fair game no matter what your level. Tsuki is one of the main attacts against jodan, you have to use it.

[JSchmidt]

I second the motion!
This technique not only works for the reasons previously mentioned, but it also forces the Jodan player to continuously change his footing in order to rotate.

The jodan player just takes a step foward/left and soon you'll find yourself running out of space.
Stepping forward toward AND to the right can make it tricky to see the kensen, but can also leave you exposed for the counter attack.
The biggest thing is not to be intimidated by it and face it full on. You can learn ways of avoiding/destroying jodan, but it's far more beneficial for both sides if you choose to learn how to face it square on.
Don't be intimidated. Manage the distance. Keep your kensen pointing at or just outside the jodan players left kote. (Get it inside and your own kote is badly exposed.)
When you attack kote, attack like men, with full explosion forward & through. Small degote style taps will be ignored by the jodan player and in shiai, the referees.

[Halcyon]

Many inexperienced people tend to overlook men as a target because it appears to be protected. But you'd be surprised how accessible it is. For example, during ai-uchi. Or you seme strongly against the jodan player's hidari kote, making him draw his hands back, and then as his hands come back down, he may expose his men.

[Charlie]

Some excellent contributions to this thread, Hanmi! Sounds like you're on the right track.

[tattooedasshole]

Okay, I'm sure this one has been discussed, but I am inquiring about a good kamae in response to an opponent assuming Jodan kamae.

What I have been doing (since this is all I know) is to adapt the same position as the shidachi in Gohonme (Kata 5).

I remain in Chudan, however I aim my kissaki at his hidari kote, and from there, I will:

1) attack his hidari kote,
2) attack his men (and charge through him so that I am too close for him to make an effect point)
3) perform kaeshi waza (men or do) when I am not fast enough to strike first.
4) Tsuki is not an option at my level

Am I on the right track? Any tips?
Fight the person, not the kamae.

[Halcyon]

Fight the person, not the kamae.
Woah, that's deep, man.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Deep but not entirely true. You need to take the kamae into account or you will get clobbered.

[rainmaker]

Now you know the secret, we will send gedan ninjas to kill you...


I will definitely give it a shot and let you know about my success, thanks!

[Legionario]

If tsuki is not an option at your level, then the guy shouldn't be using jodan against you. If he is using jodan, the tuski is fair game no matter what your level. Tsuki is one of the main attacts against jodan, you have to use it.
In my humble opinion and for what is my experience, taking down a jodan fighter with a tuski is an easy matter only if your opponet is a beginner. Experienced and learned kenshi who fight in jodan are capable to detect your intention to land a throat-strike and will behave accordingly. The tsukagashira will lower driving away your kensen and a fast morote-men will blast your men.

On the other hand tuski remains the favourite attack against jodan, but you have to be very good at it.

[Halcyon]

In my humble opinion and for what is my experience, taking down a jodan fighter with a tuski is an easy matter only if your opponet is a beginner. Experienced and learned kenshi who fight in jodan are capable to detect your intention to land a throat-strike and will behave accordingly. The tsukagashira will lower driving away your kensen and a fast morote-men will blast your men.

On the other hand tuski remains the favourite attack against jodan, but you have to be very good at it.
Attempting tsuki doesn't necessarily mean you have to score ippon. It's effective at keeping the jodan player's spirit in check.

Here's a passage from a jodan tutorial, written, I believe, by Ibo Kiyotsugu sensei.


You should attack their tsuki often, with the intent of agitating or disrupting the Jodan player. Once you have attained this situation, you will be more able to attack them successfully on other targets. The key is that you must take the initiative against them.

[ii_kangae]

men is a good option as is gyaku do...

of course gyaku do is hard score in a tournament, so men is a safer bet. A good straight men should beat a sayumen under normal circumstances.

katate tsuki looks beatiful when it lands...but you look crap if you miss....you rarely see those videos on you tube...

[Kenshi]

Oh baby. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7762281@N08/2274222922/)

[D'Artagnan]

My Father-in-Law taught me to fight jodan by using, what I think is called 'kasumi-no-kamae', i.e. pointing the kensen towards the right kote, by bringing my left hand off the centre and slightly accros to the right. Also to constantly move to the right, in an attempt to 'blind-side' the jodan player with his own hand and never stop moving.

I have experienced some success doing this so far, both vs. jodan and nito. But I am by no means good at it.

[H.Sandsleth]

Due to how jodan players cut, it doesn't quite make sense to me to turn to my right if I want to cut their men...

[JSchmidt]

men is a good option as is gyaku do...

of course gyaku do is hard score in a tournament, so men is a safer bet. A good straight men should beat a sayumen under normal circumstances.

If you can hit gyaku-do, then the jodan player has truly screwed up and attacking men is a good way of losing to the debana-men.

I agree with Legionario that tsuki is over-valued as a target. It's hard to hit and easy not only to defend, but to counter the tsuki attack with either debana men or uchi-otoshi-men.
It's often one of the key mistakes that less experienced people make is that they've heard the 'attack tsuki against jodan' and merrily starts poking away without any thought to why they're doing so.

You have to bear in mind that the jodan players bread and butter is the debana-men. In order to successfully attack a jodan player, you have to nullify that threat by placing enough pressure to make them react and remove the debana-setup.
Alternatively, you can make them attack from less than ideal situations and apply your oji-waza.

[absenteekendoka]

Now you know the secret, we will send gedan ninjas to kill you...

I will help you face the encroaching (yet stealthy...oooo so stealthy) Ninja hordes!! :)

[Legionario]

Attempting tsuki doesn't necessarily mean you have to score ippon. It's effective at keeping the jodan player's spirit in check.
That's true. But it is also true that if you are not more than good at it your attempts at keeping the jodan player's spirit in check will end with the jodan player easily avoiding your strikes and, consequently, repeatedly smashing his best katate-uchi on your men.
Again, for what is my experience, poor attempts at tsuki will result in an open invitation for the jodan player to score.
Even fighters who are very skilled at it will have an hard time to strike tsuki against a jodan kenshi; unskilled ones are easy preys once they start to dabble with something they don't have a decent knowledge of.



Here's a passage from a jodan tutorial, written, I believe, by Ibo Kiyotsugu sensei.
Ibo not Iho?
Which one is the correct reading?

[Whitefire]

Not quite what was being asked for.....

But, I was once told attack them while they are moving into Jodan, it when they are weak and not set up right.

[Legionario]

But, I was once told attack them while they are moving into Jodan, it when they are weak and not set up right.
This is the absolute first place in the list of "Legends about jodan".
No one, not even a beginner, would make such a gross mistake during shiai. It just takes a couple of weeks of practice to understand when or when not is the moment to move into the kamae.
Try it in shiai and you'll see that the only possible results will be: a) the jodan fighter closes in and you end up in tsuba-zeriai; b) a solid nuki-waza is on its way.

[Paburo]

i'm still figuring out the kamae part, but if jodan is the kamae of fire i say BURN THEM, hah.

really, keep cool. yell louder. and respond with equal (or more) aggresivity? imho you have 3 things in your advantage to feel stronger against any jodan:

1. seigan cuts are twice as ''strong'' thanks to the two-handed action (as dirty as that sounds :D). whilst jodan requires years of skilled and trained katate tenouchi, almost any yudansha can deliver a powerful cherry-popping blow.
2. seigan kamae is more "solid", especially for defense. so there's no need to run around looking piss-scared...
3. seigan is less tiring, so your stamina should last longer! :D


:D

[Hanmi]

This is great stuff, much appreciate the tips. FYI, I am mostly up against a particular Nidan in our dojo who is developing his Jodan. I am able to get kote, and even men "some" times, but have been struggling with an overall strategy, so I have been experimenting. Now I have more ammunition to experiment with.

I hope he is reading this, it will make it that much more difficult :laugh: