The sword is the mind

[ben]

Most of us have heard this saying. It's a pretty important concept in kendo.

Recently I had a thought. I was at a taikai and I noticed someone watching the kendo who was obviously not a kendoka. In fact I'd be prepared to put money on him being either from judo, jujutsu or some other empty-hand art. He sat there, massive chest and shoulders, slightly hunched posture, feet tapping incessantly like there was too much energy in them. Maybe watching made him want to do some sparring of his own. His 'energy' was very different to a kendo person. So different that it prompted this thought:

In unarmed arts, the body is the weapon.

This guy carried himself like an unspoken threat. It's an attitude I've seen a lot out in the world. Bouncers have it for instance. There's a strong whiff of testosterone about it too.

But it made me reflect on that adage, "The sword is the mind," in a new way. Kendo people are generally pretty weedy and come across like normal people. Is it that the judoka develops their body to be the weapon, and the kendoka develops their mind to be the weapon?

It might be a kind of conceit to say that, but it also strikes me as potentially quite true. A lot of people I know who do kendo but have a history in unarmed martial arts seem to be always holding back the desire to bring what for them is the real weapon, their body, into play.

Thoughts? Is this a train of thought that makes sense?

b

[Masahiro]

Ben,

I think the saying "the sword is the mind" came about because mostly, people wielding swords don't use their feet to kick, or hands to punch, you will see some "techniques" in some koryu schools that involves tripping, nudging or whatever. But by and large, the weapon to defend, and the hurt is the "sword". So then I think if your mind isn't stable neither will be your sword, << Sword >> being the one thing that you have to channel all of our energy and concentration into.

This is different from "some" unarmed disciplines, say "Muay thai" for example has 8 weapons. But boxing really only has "2" (their fists) There are some martial arts out there that only use the upper or the lower body, or both, I think their "spirit" is also carried out and divided into however many weapons they primarily utilize.

So in conclusion, I think the difference is a small one, one that lies in the external instrument used, but not the internal way of approaching combat.

[hyuna]

I think it is an interesting thought, but because the view that the body and mind are separate things is a long-held western philosophical perspective, I am not sure if it is the best way to distinguish these things.

Remember that "tai" is part of "ki-ken-tai," too :)

[ben]

Indeed. I'm falling into some Cartesian dualism here...

b

[Abramo]

You don't have to fall into a complete Cartesian dualism when making distictions between body and mind.

Dualism says there ARE two different things, made of different "matter", with different properties. Technically speaking, it's a metaphysical stance on the ontological status of the mind. No one defends that anymore, at least not academically.
A more recent view for the scientifically inclined is that the mind IS purely physical (physicalism, it has strong and weak versions), exactly how is up to investigation, but it does have different properties than ordinary objects around us (second-degree characteristics). Many people dispute this, even among the sane and intelligent, but you could say that's a "common sense" view among most educated people. This is not even called dualism. This position will admit there's nothing else other than ordinary matter but there are all sorts of weird stuff "springing up" when matter comes together. Like supernovas and life and thinking-walking-opposable-thumbing creatures.

But enough of lecturing. Where was I now? Oh yeah, budo.

So there is a practical and observable difference between body and mind, and this is what we're talking about here. You don't train your mind the way you train your body, and I would agree that training in both is quite different if your goal is hand-to-hand or elbow-to-solar-plexus or bullet-to-forehead combat.

There's also the fact that we train mind, body and mind-body coordination. When we do kakarigeiko or uchikomigeiko aren't we training to assess and evaluate the opponent's weaknesses quickly (mind) and deliver the proper strike asap (body)?

Armed combat requires a lot of "keeping your cool". Traditionally, JSA requires a lot of strategy and consideration (measuring up your opponent, his stance etc.) that seems different to what happens in, say, a jujutsu-ka's head. I could be totally wrong here. But I have a feeling that the kind of mind-body coordination we train in, say, Kendo is not the same as what is trained in Judo. Physical fitness in unarmed combat plays a much greater role than in swords arts, where an astute and quick-witted yet poorly-muscled person can still use his weapon (sword) and win.
In unarmed combat, all other things being equal, being strong is better than being clever. In Kendo, having a cooler and quicker mind will give you an edge over a physically faster opponent.

Erm, right? Maybe I'm letting the armchair martial artist in me come out too much.

A perceptible difference between a Kendo-ka's and a Judo-ka's demeanor and behaviour could be a sign of this.

[ben]

Thanks for teasing it out a bit more Abramo. That's the kind of thing I was thinking about originally.

I mean hey, even the Japanese are guilty of saying "shinshin ichinyo" which implies that there is a point where the body and mind are thought of as separate otherwise no need for the admonition to think of them as one.

b

[GZA]

Abramo-- In open-hands martial arts power is the last of the factors that will decide your win. Number 1 being fearlessness. The more fearless of the two will win.

I'm not sure the direction Ben meant thing topic to go, and to be honest I'm not sure how to even go about putting in my two cents in a short non-rambling kind of way, but I'll try....

open hand and sword sparring is very much similar. If you think about yours, or the other guys next more then the next move will be the one that gets you. I think having a sword makes you easier, and harder to read. Easier because your entire Aura is focused into your blade. Takuan Soho said not to let your "mind stop" anywhere. This means don't focus your mind into your sword or your foot work or anything. Throw your mind away.

In Open-Handed Martial arts this is not much of an issue. You have less to focus on. You can watch your partners feet and hands and eyes at once without much practice. There is much less to think about.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that with a sword, there is more that can "stop" your mind. Its easier to throw your mind out in a fist fight and work off muscle-memory and instint.

Sorry If I don't make much sence tonight. I'm sleepy and my thoughts are not well organized.

[kendogrl]

Many practitioners of judo, jujutsu, and the other arts, I have noticed are very jittery. And on the constant move. I can see what you are saying. Kendoka, I think are a lot more within themselves. If you have two in the room, you would have one man of judo and one man of kendo, you would probably find the man of judo needing something to keep him busy, whereas the kendoka could sit there and just analyze everything, not needing to move, knowing that when he does choose to move it will be with purpose and meaning, because he would know exactly what he was going for. Not just about the other opponent and their force but their surroundings and the opponents next move. I dont know, just my opinion.

[GZA]

In boxing and such, if you stand still....your going to get hit. In Kendo, you make the best out of each move. Moveing only when you need, and makeing the best out of every move

[kendogrl]

In boxing and such, if you stand still....your going to get hit. In Kendo, you make the best out of each move. Moveing only when you need, and makeing the best out of every move

I like your analogy to boxing, very well said.

[hyuna]

I didn't mean to start a critique of dualism (incidentally, at the University that I was last at, there were plenty of dualists in the cognitive science department that were more than happy to defend that position).

My point was that if you were to hold up an asian empty-hand discipline next to an asian weapon discipline and look at them, I very much doubt that the fundamental difference would be that one aims to train the body and only incidentally the mind while the other trains the mind and only incidentally the body. The stereotypical view of all asian martial arts, both armed and unarmed, is that they develop self-discipline -- a "mental" quality.

Of course kendo is not jiu-jitsu or boxing or whatever, so what they train will be different. The thing is that the consequences of getting hit in a fistfight are different from the consequences of getting hit in a swordfight. It's very easy to hit someone who is standing still. However, you will kill yourself in the process if they don't flinch and have a sword pointed at your neck. Boxers and other unarmed fighters aren't in the same situation.

I think perhaps if kendo looks more mental than physical, it might have something to do with the part of kendo you are looking at. Kendo has a lot of people practicing it that are well past their physical prime. If you can't compete physically, then you have to compete mentally. So there are plenty of situations where kendo is more "mental" than "physical." Moreover, a lot of our teachers are those who are well past their physical prime, and are, therefore, usually in that mode.

But that said, I don't think that other martial arts are really any different. A friend of mine recently took up boxing, and she described it using the same metaphor that people usually reserve for fencing: "a mental chess match."

[LowFatMat]

the consequences of getting hit in a fistfight are different from the consequences of getting hit in a swordfight.

You beat me to this point, and I think it's an important one. If you engage in unarmed combat, you're going to have to put in a pretty determined effort if you want to kill your opponent, and can afford to take a few hits on the way. If you have swords in your hands then one of you, possibly both of you, is going to get maimed or killed. No wonder kendoka are a little more circumspect (If you are new to kendo, this is not an excuse for not attacking. Get stuck in and build some spirit, damn you).

On the topic of physical prowess, I am young (ish) and fit and get regularly stomped by seniors approaching twice my age. As my sempai likes to say "Don't mistake speed for sharpness and don't mistake strength for spirit".

[rfoxmich]

"Recently I had a thought. I was at a taikai and I noticed someone watching the kendo who was obviously not a kendoka. In fact I'd be prepared to put money on him being either from judo, jujutsu or some other empty-hand art. He sat there, massive chest and shoulders, slightly hunched posture, feet tapping incessantly like there was too much energy in them. Maybe watching made him want to do some sparring of his own. His 'energy' was very different to a kendo person. So different that it prompted this thought:"

I question the premise that this is how other martial artist in empty handed arts are. I know quite a few of them, and the resemblence of the higher ranked, better of them to higher ranked better kenshi is remarkable. What you maybe saw was your stereotype of someone from jujutsu or some other empty handed art... or a bouncer..or a body builder off the street who had one cup of coffee too many.

Just my $.02

[Abramo]

On the topic of physical prowess, I am young (ish) and fit and get regularly stomped by seniors approaching twice my age. As my sempai likes to say "Don't mistake speed for sharpness and don't mistake strength for spirit".

That's the way I see it. In Kendo, physical prime will not win over technical and mental prime. These are pretty much never reached within one's "golden years".

Not to mention the goal of Kendo is to develop character, and the ultimate technical goals are total control of your mind (fudoshin, sen sen no sen etc.) This goes through mind-body coordination (ki-ken-tai-ichi), but the main aspect is clear.


Feel free to skip the following, just thinking out loud.
***************************
I'm having second thoughts about where unarmed combat stands, though. I see three elements in MAs:

Physical
Technical
Mental

Two of them being equal, an advantage in the third wins. If we make it more complicated, say:

Pa>Pb, Ta=Tb, Ma<Mb

Who wins? In kendo, I'd say b wins. In unarmed combat, will a weaker opponent with more "cool" win?

I understand this is probably TOO oversimplifying. Not trying to turn this into a dumb "who wins" thread, just being a nerd.

[Anonymous]

Or, maybe the guy the OP saw is like me, and just can't stand seeing other people having fun while not being able to join in.


Truthfully, I've done unarmed arts (nidan in wado ryu-karate, none of that point sparring BS either, unranked in Judo) much longer than kendo and naginata, and I don't see much difference in the way you mentally approach them. Just that you need to keep in mind that you're probably gonna have to take a few hits to mash the other guy into the ground/strangle him. If you've got someone with a naginata or a sword on the other hand, you're obviously going to want to be more careful about just rushing in.

[LowFatMat]

I see three elements in MAs:

Physical
Technical
Mental

Two of them being equal, an advantage in the third wins. If we make it more complicated, say:

Pa>Pb, Ta=Tb, Ma<Mb

Who wins? In kendo, I'd say b wins. In unarmed combat, will a weaker opponent with more "cool" win?

I understand this is probably TOO oversimplifying. Not trying to turn this into a dumb "who wins" thread, just being a nerd.


No no - let's do just that.

I agree with your judgment after a point. However, my experience is that physical prowess will overcome mental strength at lower levels, that is, a low-ranked yudansha might still struggle against an athletic beginner because their mental (and also technical) superiority is not yet sufficient to overcome their opponent's raw physical advantages. Eventually this will turn around. Reliance on the physical is kind of like the dark path - early gains, but will be left behind in the long run.

[ben]

I totally agree that experienced practitioners in all MA probably resemble each other quite closely.

But the biggest difference between kendo and other (non-weapon) MA is that kendo has no explicit 'self-defence' aspect to it. That means that all those guys who want to know how to fight won't choose kendo. So I might be describing something that is pre-existing in many such MA-ists (e.g. ADHD), that has nothing to do with their MA.

b

[H.Sandsleth]

So I might be describing something that is pre-existing in many such MA-ists (e.g. ADHD), that has nothing to do with their MA.

b

ADHD? Isn't one sign of ADHD low attention span and lack of focus? Then there is more ADHD in kendo than in any of the other arts I've done. Seriously.

[Kenshi]

Hang on, kendo is quite safe. In fact, isnt it safer than boxing?

If this is true, then we might want to re-examine kendo's place when we put it on the scale of danger, and think about how that affects how (and more importantly for Bens discussion: who) does kendo.

If someone chimes in that they practise kendo with the same considerations and with the same mindset of a real live-blade fight, well, um, fair enough... but ive yet to meet anyone who does kendo like that, or - at least - ive never once felt in fear of my life whilst doing kendo. The consquences of me losing a fight is a bruised ego or the occasional bruise at worst. Right?

[GZA]

but the ideas behind the movements that influenced Kendo are based on life-and death. Someone "dies" at the end of each Kata

[Kenshi]

Um, yeah, but no one really dies, nor is there the threat of death like there would be were you in a real situation where your life could be lost. Its just never going to happen in the dojo, I posit.

If kendo training was actually like that (not that there would be anyone around to teach you) I suspect youd get a far different breed of people showing up for keiko than those that practise now.

[H.Sandsleth]

I agree with what kenshi is saying here. When I did karate and jj, there was a probability of some real injuries. Accidental KO did also happen. That will do something with the practitioners mindset.

[Anonymous]

Hang on, kendo is quite safe. In fact, isnt it safer than boxing?


I'd say that neither is safer to be honest, boxing is really only overly damaging once you start getting into competitions where the ruleset basically demands that you get the piss beat out of you. Otherwise, not so bad.

[Abramo]

Um, yeah, but no one really dies, nor is there the threat of death like there would be were you in a real situation where your life could be lost. Its just never going to happen in the dojo, I posit.

Any training is by construction NOT a real situation. The fact that it is extremely unlikely for someone to die during Kendo keiko doesn't mean the practice isn't one of simulation of a life-or-death situation. Kenjutsu training in the Edo period would occasionaly cause deaths and major injuries, but that was obviously not the norm. They were accidents that were supposed to be avoided (thus the development of Kendo in the first place). Your life was not supposed to be in danger during practice. Thus the reason to train the spirit to be in the correct framework.

The Bushi trained to face death with open arms. That's what we train when we are taught not to dodge strikes or move backwards to avoid being hit, but to move forward and hit even if it means being hit too!


If kendo training was actually like that (not that there would be anyone around to teach you) I suspect youd get a far different breed of people showing up for keiko than those that practise now.

I haven't met one single sensei to this day that haven't, at one point or another, taught us that ippon, deep down, means you're dead; that you should practice Kendo having in mind your life is on the line, and that you should give all your energy and commitment to it for that reason: it's not just a game of poke-with-the-stick.
When having a hard time explaining something, sensei quite often say "if you do that against a sword, you'll die. The shinai is not a stick, it's a sword, so don't do that here either."

In fact, even the terminology indicates that's the underlying spirit, when speaking of the 3 anullments/deaths (satsu) in Kendo.

When I practice, I try to have this in mind all the time. I understand that Kendo is katsujinken (the sword that gives life), but that appraisal for life comes from realizing, in keiko, that we're puting it on the line.

Maybe this viewpoint doesn't apply for most people practicing or starting Kendo, but I'm sure it's there, in some degree, in those who practice it for a long time (not saying that's my case).

[LowFatMat]

Um, yeah, but no one really dies, nor is there the threat of death like there would be were you in a real situation where your life could be lost. Its just never going to happen in the dojo, I posit.

If kendo training was actually like that (not that there would be anyone around to teach you) I suspect youd get a far different breed of people showing up for keiko than those that practise now.

Obviously you're not actually going to die, but that's why shinai and bogu were developed, to make training safer; the necessity for this is obvious. However, the art itself would still be deadly if you were to remove these safeguards, and to fully benefit from training you should always consider the consequences of this scenario. If you rely on the safety of the shinai and bogu then you lose sight of the budo aspect - it is still, after all, a martial exercise.

I would go on, but Abramo's already said it pretty well. Enjoying this discussion.

[Kenshi]

Either way, the fact that you arent going to die or get injured seriously alters the way you practise.

I find this quote odd, Mat:


I joined a traditional Kendo dojo because I wanted to learn how to handle a sword and fight like a samurai. Did anyone out there start kendo because they felt they needed their character improving?

[hyuna]

Hang on, kendo is quite safe. In fact, isnt it safer than boxing?

If this is true, then we might want to re-examine kendo's place when we put it on the scale of danger, and think about how that affects how (and more importantly for Bens discussion: who) does kendo.
The rules are written from a perspective that it is a sword, so even though we all know it is not a sword and (for the most part) do not behave as though it were a real sword, the metaphor carries through to how we judge the "effectiveness" of the techniques that we use. It's the techniques and methods that we use that determine how much "mind" vs "body" is going on, and presumably we use the techniques that we consider most effective. Therefore, the metaphor matters regardless of how safe kendo is in reality.

[hl1978]

I find this quote odd, Mat:

I don't find it that far off. Most people I have encountered in martial arts joined because they wanted to learn some manner of fighting, whether it is striking, grappling or weapons work. I don't think very many joined a martial art with the express intent of becoming a better person, particularly if they joined at a young age.

It might happen along the way, but given the rate that people quit because it is hard, physically exerting etc (since many people seem to join because of a wish fulfillment fantasy), it seems like you might wind up with a self selecting group of people to begin with. There are exceptions of course.

[LowFatMat]

I find this quote odd, Mat:

I was being a little facetious, I suppose, but I was responding to the tendency of some people to bang on about how self-improving kendo is almost to the point where it's seen as somehow unsophisticated or shallow to acknowledge that it was originally a sword art. It hardly needs stating that in this day and age there is little need for sword skills, so evolution has been inevitable, but for me the core of kendo, combined with Iai, is still swordsmanship.

I started practising around seven years ago. At pretty much the same time I had my first of two kids, and started a job that actually required some effort and application on my part. If I look at myself now compared to seven years ago, I would like to think that I am more patient, more tolerant, less selfish, more likely to see a commitment through, clearer in my own mind and far more ready to stand my ground than I ever used to be. Whether these changes to my character came about through fatherhood, through having to work hard, through practising kendo or simply through being seven years older I can't know, it's impossible to separate. What I do know is that my kids are amazing, I'm succeeding at work and I'm a better swordsman than I was.

I started kendo because I wanted to learn swordfighting, and I persist because I want to be better at it. Maybe I am developing character as a consequence but I'm not going to obsess about that.
My question was out of genuine interest as to how many people joined up for "shallow" reasons like mine, and how many were drawn to it because they'd heard it would develop them spiritually.

I'm not usually given to outpourings like that. I hope that clarifies my post.

[Kenshi]

I'm not usually given to outpourings like that. I hope that clarifies my post.

No, it was quite illuminating!


My question was out of genuine interest as to how many people joined up for "shallow" reasons like mine, and how many were drawn to it because they'd heard it would develop them spiritually.

Good question! No idea of the answer, but I think the fantasy element is strong. And this is perhaps getting back in the flavour (if only a little bit) of Bens original post/question.


I haven't met one single sensei to this day that haven't, at one point or another, taught us that ippon, deep down, means you're dead; that you should practice Kendo having in mind your life is on the line, and that you should give all your energy and commitment to it for that reason: it's not just a game of poke-with-the-stick.
When having a hard time explaining something, sensei quite often say "if you do that against a sword, you'll die. The shinai is not a stick, it's a sword, so don't do that here either."

Sure, thats fine, but how many kendo sensei have you met that have actually been involved in a swordfight, killed someone or - for that matter - practise koryu or even iaido? Do they even have the authority to talk about whats the "correct" way to use a sword?

What we have today, for the most part, is an art that is existing in and of itself. If you lined up all the 8dan and 7dan in Japan I think you would find a large dearth of a *more traditional swordsmanship background. When they talk about hasuji and applications of the sword, etc, they are generally talking within their experience, which is a kendo context only, and one that doesnt involve killing people (or the real threat of). There might be exceptions of course.

There is nothing wrong with this - of course - but lets honestly see if for what it is.

* by more traditional I mean kendo as part of a larger whole. I believe koryu-only practise leads to similiar pitfalls. And iaido only people who talk about real fighting and what have you are on a one way bus to here (http://www.puzzleworld.com/images/RAV/RAV-12752-LG.jpg).

[Shinsengumi77]

"Recently I had a thought. I was at a taikai and I noticed someone watching the kendo who was obviously not a kendoka. In fact I'd be prepared to put money on him being either from judo, jujutsu or some other empty-hand art. He sat there, massive chest and shoulders, slightly hunched posture, feet tapping incessantly like there was too much energy in them. Maybe watching made him want to do some sparring of his own. His 'energy' was very different to a kendo person. So different that it prompted this thought:"

I question the premise that this is how other martial artist in empty handed arts are. I know quite a few of them, and the resemblence of the higher ranked, better of them to higher ranked better kenshi is remarkable. What you maybe saw was your stereotype of someone from jujutsu or some other empty handed art... or a bouncer..or a body builder off the street who had one cup of coffee too many.

Just my $.02

Agreed. I know quite a few people in other martial arts, and many of them are very calm, relaxed people, especially the higher ranked practitioners and teachers. I believe that though we all practice different arts and styles, we are just on different paths that lead to the same place. From some people, I've even felt like they could cut me without a sword, just from facing off with them. Not sure if this makes any sense, but that's what I came up with.

[Josh Reyer]

The Bushi trained to face death with open arms. That's what we train when we are taught not to dodge strikes or move backwards to avoid being hit, but to move forward and hit even if it means being hit too!

Interestingly enough, the sword art I study, which was developed and practiced by bushi who actually used it to kill and not be killed, teaches that being hit is a Very Bad Thing, and so is designed to kill an opponent without being hit as well.


I haven't met one single sensei to this day that haven't, at one point or another, taught us that ippon, deep down, means you're dead; that you should practice Kendo having in mind your life is on the line, and that you should give all your energy and commitment to it for that reason: it's not just a game of poke-with-the-stick.

And likewise in judo ippon, deep down, means you're dead, the enemy has thrown you prone (in actuality without the ability to take ukemi) and has proceeded to cut your throat with their short blade. I don't see any exceptionalism here for kendo. In fact, the extremely large amount of incidental contact with the opponent's "sword" and the practitioner shocked me the first time I saw it (used as I was to the idea that it's a Very Bad Thing for aite's shinai to make contact with my body), and suggests to me that in as much as the shinai represents a sword, virtually no one in kendo treats it like it's a real sword. Which in turn makes me doubt the degree to which the theoretical danger of the shinai finally hones the spirit beyond having one's physical space invaded and imposed on by the physicality of another being.

Make no mistake, I have the highest respect for kendo as a budo. It's a physically demanding, hard, ego-punishing endeavor that can truly polish one's spirit. But IMO it has nothing more to do with Death than any modern budo.

[Trent]

Sure, thats fine, but how many kendo sensei have you met that have actually been involved in a swordfight, killed someone or - for that matter - practise koryu or even iaido? Do they even have the authority to talk about whats the "correct" way to use a sword?

What we have today, for the most part, is an art that is existing in and of itself. If you lined up all the 8dan and 7dan in Japan I think you would find a large dearth of a *more traditional swordsmanship background. When they talk about hasuji and applications of the sword, etc, they are generally talking within their experience, which is a kendo context only, and one that doesnt involve killing people (or the real threat of). There might be exceptions of course.

* by more traditional I mean kendo as part of a larger whole. I believe koryu-only practise leads to similiar pitfalls. And iaido only people who talk about real fighting and what have you are on a one way bus to here (http://www.puzzleworld.com/images/RAV/RAV-12752-LG.jpg).


I believe that I am in quite an exceptional circumstance, if going by what your saying. My sensei's first style was Katori Shinto Ryu. He has also done Iaido, and as such has a deep understand of the sword and applications of the sword, rather than a deep understanding of just the shinai in a Kendo sense.

[Kenshi]

Make no mistake, I have the highest respect for kendo as a budo. It's a physically demanding, hard, ego-punishing endeavor that can truly polish one's spirit. But IMO it has nothing more to do with Death than any modern budo.

Great description.

Isnt kendo about life? About contributing to society? About overcoming adversity? About being a good person?

Trent -> I think studying koryu allows for a deeper look and should round your study out general, but isnt koryu practise also compromised and divorced from sword fighting... sometimes by large chasms?

Fact: you dont need to study koryu nor iaido to be good at kendo.

Even if you are lucky enough to study these with exceptional teachers, how much an impact it has on the physical side of your kendo is problematic to measure, and might only be very small. By swinging a bokuto more often, and by practising kata over and over you can train your muscles, hand eye coordination, timing, taisabaki, etc etc, but you need to get in there and do some kakarigeiko and kirikaeshi. Shiai would be good at some point too. However, it probably does affect the way you view kendo, and that is obviously a massive thing for some people.

Ben --> sorry for derailing the topic.

[hyuna]

Which in turn makes me doubt the degree to which the theoretical danger of the shinai finally hones the spirit beyond having one's physical space invaded and imposed on by the physicality of another being.
It's not the theoretical danger -- at least, not the way I think you mean.

The theory that the shinai is a sword provides an arbitrary framework to act within. We behave in a certain way because the shinai is supposed to represent a sword. This is not to say that we act literally as though the shinai were a sword, but the techniques we use fit within a general framework in which we act, but the general "shape" of the techniques we use and the philosophy of our practice fits within this general framework. It's one of the rules of the game that we follow.

Boxing has similar rules, for example, you can't hit "below the belt," like in kendo. That colors both the technique that boxers use as well as the way they see things in a fight. At the end of the day, boxing is no more about "real-life fighting" than kendo is.

My earlier point on this subject had to do with standing still. In kendo we stand still a lot, relatively speaking. In reality, it is very, very easy to hit someone who is acually standing still (all things equal). The only reason we can get away with standing still is that it is easy to cancel out the point of someone hitting you while you are standing there, and the only reason that we can do that is because of the justification that these are swords we are holding, not sticks. The rules are different, not because we have some different sense of fear or mortality that comes from thinking that this bundle of sticks is actually a sharp metal blade, but because of the theoretical framework that kendo is built around.

In more sport-like situations where, arguably, the shinai is treated less like a sword, you'll notice that people don't stand still. They dance around just as much as a boxer does.


It's a physically demanding, hard, ego-punishing endeavor that can truly polish one's spirit. But IMO it has nothing more to do with Death than any modern budo.
I think this is right on target.

[ben]

FWIW I didn't join kendo because it would keisei my ningen nicely. I joined because I thought it was cool. That's what got me to walk through the door. What I encountered from then on was different to anything I could have imagined.

I didn't know what kendo would be but I knew it wasn't karate and being a snobby little so-and-so (even at 14) I wanted to do something different to what my mates were doing. Later on I realised that it was a better fit for my personality and physical build than I could have realised.

So the becoming a better person bit only came into it later. And, to be quite honest, talking about that stuff can, if you're not careful, come across as a bit big-headed. Which is not really a good gen for your nin to be is it?

b

[ben]

...Recently I had a thought. I was at a taikai and I noticed someone watching the kendo who was obviously not a kendoka...


BTW this chap was probably in his mid-30s. Perhaps that's why I had the thought. If he had just been some young bloke I wouldn't have noticed. But he seemed old enough to be past the first flush of his youth: old enough to, as they say, have the face he made for himself, not the one he was born with.
b

[Abramo]

[...]I don't see any exceptionalism here for kendo.[...]
[...]But IMO it has nothing more to do with Death than any modern budo.

You're right, but I didn't say it had in that particular context. I was just putting forth Kendo's mindset (in my own view, of course). It could be the mindset of other budo arts, sure. Like I said, I'm having second thoughts regarding the OP.

I also agree that, like you said, Kendo is overly lenient with shinai manipulation. It's not treated as a deadly sword all the time by most people. The shinai even "cuts" differently! But those are by-products of the mechanics of Kendo. I'm sure training koryu kenjutsu with a bokuto is not the same as with a shinken (not to mention using a dull Al-Zn alloy Iaito) but that doesn't change the fundamental teachings. The mechanics don't overule the underlying concepts.



Sure, thats fine, but how many kendo sensei have you met that have actually been involved in a swordfight, killed someone or - for that matter - practise koryu or even iaido? Do they even have the authority to talk about whats the "correct" way to use a sword?

I can say with a lot of confidence that NOT A SINGLE Iaido hachidan or MJER sensei living today has killed someone with a sword or been in a "real" swordfight! It's quite absurd to say that this lack of experience diminishes their authority to teach about the real workings of a sword.
I understand that there's many different kinds of sensei out there, but my experience is that Kendo sensei teach the same things regardless of their Iai/koryu background. My own sensei is "Kendo only", but when Tomoharo Ito sensei (Kendo hachidan, Iaido hachidan) visits here, he teaches the same things about Kendo. He doesn't teach different things regarding hasuji or seme or whatever. It's the same, proper, by the book Kendo.



When they talk about hasuji and applications of the sword, etc, they are generally talking within their experience, which is a kendo context only, and one that doesnt involve killing people (or the real threat of).

I have already agreed that no practice poses "real" life threats. I've also said that the there's a *spirit* of life-and-death behind practicing Kendo, or so I've been taught, and not "omg we have to practice kendo so we can defend our lifes in the streets!!1". I even mentioned katsujinken, that's the exact opposite of "today we're gonna learn how to gut a man". So, what's your point? We're agreeing here.


There is nothing wrong with this - of course - but lets honestly see if for what it is.

And what it is, to me, is not a bunch of old guys pretending they know squat about sharp irons or trying to defend their very lives by purposefully putting them in danger for no good reason after a day in the office.
The Kendo I've had contact with can teach you something about the sword and one's life. In its own way; it IS art with a life of its own. Maybe one day I'll learn enough about koryu kenjutsu and realize Kendo just got it all wrong, but so far Kendo is doing a pretty good job for me.

[Kenshi]

It's quite absurd to say that this lack of experience diminishes their authority to teach about the real workings of a sword

It depends what you are using the sword for I guess.

[Charles Lockhar]

So the becoming a better person bit only came into it later. And, to be quite honest, talking about that stuff can, if you're not careful, come across as a bit big-headed. Which is not really a good gen for your nin to be is it?

I think that really depends on the context. By doing something to become a better person, I'm not meaning that tomorrow I'm going to wake up and be better than you. I'm hoping that tomorrow I'll wake up and in some way be better than I was the day before. I can't see how that would be big-headed.

-Charles

[Josh Reyer]

It's not the theoretical danger -- at least, not the way I think you mean.

The theory that the shinai is a sword provides an arbitrary framework to act within. We behave in a certain way because the shinai is supposed to represent a sword. This is not to say that we act literally as though the shinai were a sword, but the techniques we use fit within a general framework in which we act, but the general "shape" of the techniques we use and the philosophy of our practice fits within this general framework. It's one of the rules of the game that we follow.

I follow you here, but my point is that this framework is no more unique than any other combat-based sport, including the unarmed ones. The physical shape of the framework is different, but the intent is the same. In my opinion, saying "the shinai represents a sword" doesn't add any extra-dimension that trains and improves the mind any more than any other martial art/combat-based sport.


My earlier point on this subject had to do with standing still. In kendo we stand still a lot, relatively speaking. In reality, it is very, very easy to hit someone who is acually standing still (all things equal). The only reason we can get away with standing still is that it is easy to cancel out the point of someone hitting you while you are standing there, and the only reason that we can do that is because of the justification that these are swords we are holding, not sticks. The rules are different, not because we have some different sense of fear or mortality that comes from thinking that this bundle of sticks is actually a sharp metal blade, but because of the theoretical framework that kendo is built around.

In more sport-like situations where, arguably, the shinai is treated less like a sword, you'll notice that people don't stand still. They dance around just as much as a boxer does.

Again, I disagree. I believe the "movement vs stillness" dichotomy you find is not due to the shinai's representation of the sword, but due to the nature of the one touch=one point system, and the use of the shinai to establish distance.

Boxers and MMAists circle the ring to establish maai. Once judoka have their grips, they stay pretty static until the throwing and counters start up. The same with sumo. Sumo bouts that last longer than a minute have long periods where the rikishi are locked together, hardly moving, as they feel out each other's balance, attacking and countering virtually simultaneously, so that the struggle isn't immediately obvious, and it just seems like they're standing there taking a breather.

In kendo, this generally takes place at the mono-uchi. Kendoka may stand relatively still once they've established maai with their shinai, but then their shinai are jittering all over the place. Kendo is not stiller than unarmed arts, the movement is simply concentrated at the tip of the bamboo sticks that establish points.


You're right, but I didn't say it had in that particular context. I was just putting forth Kendo's mindset (in my own view, of course). It could be the mindset of other budo arts, sure. Like I said, I'm having second thoughts regarding the OP.

I was thinking more along the lines of when you said this:

But I have a feeling that the kind of mind-body coordination we train in, say, Kendo is not the same as what is trained in Judo. Physical fitness in unarmed combat plays a much greater role than in swords arts, where an astute and quick-witted yet poorly-muscled person can still use his weapon (sword) and win.
In unarmed combat, all other things being equal, being strong is better than being clever. In Kendo, having a cooler and quicker mind will give you an edge over a physically faster opponent.

The fact is, the mighty hachidans don't take part in the All-Japan Championship because despite their mental edge, they would get decimated by the younger, stronger, faster players. In Judo, boxing, wrestling, MMA, karate, etc., the ability to be cooler and quicker than the opponent is paramount. That is, in fact, the whole idea of judo's 柔よく剛を制す "the flexible overcomes the strong." In boxing, like in kendo, young punks full of speed and power get routinely schooled by veterans who are calm, collected, and can better utilize the skills they have, but once those young punks have a certain level of mental training, the balance tips again in their favor.

[Paburo]

In unarmed arts, the body is the weapon.

This guy carried himself like an unspoken threat. It's an attitude I've seen a lot out in the world. Bouncers have it for instance. There's a strong whiff of testosterone about it too.

But it made me reflect on that adage, "The sword is the mind," in a new way. Kendo people are generally pretty weedy and come across like normal people. Is it that the judoka develops their body to be the weapon, and the kendoka develops their mind to be the weapon?

hey Ben, this sounds very philosophical:

剣は心なり 心正しからざれば 剣又正しからず 剣を学ばんと欲するものは 先ず心を学ぶべし

but i like to make simple interpretations i could explain a little kid so i think i'll give it a twist. judoka develop their body to work in accordance to their mind, whilst kendoka develop their sword (mostly) to work in accordance to their mind/heart.

imho, thats why we kendoka sort of look "normal and testosterone-less" on the street. it's because we necessarily DO NOT need to be a threat or feel intimidating when unarmoured and unarmed. that's how an affable and smiling easygoing sensei becomes a ruthless killing machine monster once he's geared up and in front of you in chudan. his sword screaming: "come into my itto maai and i'll beat the bollocks out of you".

incidentally, that's how a huge and physically strong mudansha kohai becomes a kendo baby once you see his chudan and his level. his sword trembling around in fear and clumsily whispering "i'm scared sh!tless cause i don't know how this jigeiko thing works"

to me the sword is the mind/heart/spirit means that even using the very same sized/wheighted sword, a smaller person can easily beat a bigger/heavier person using a greater spirit/mind and skill.

now i practiced judo and no matter how skilled the little/lean guy was, a linebacker type of judoka with decent skill could easily break and crack every single bone of their dwards opponent body into ippon. no wonder they have weight divisions there... otherwise it'd be a massacre! :D :D

[Abramo]

The fact is, the mighty hachidans don't take part in the All-Japan Championship because despite their mental edge, they would get decimated by the younger, stronger, faster players.

I honestly don't believe that would be the case. I think hachidans don't compete in the All-japan's because they've been there, done that. Working on something else now (like being shinpam there). Plus they don't need the "prestige" that being the All Japan champion entails, whereas a police captain could certainly use it.
So it's more political than physical. You don't think Eiga sensei gets wacked on a daily basis by his hachidan instructor?

Little joke: Noticed how there's very few nanadan there too? They're all busy training to be hachidan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think hachidans don't compete in the All-japan's because they've been there, done that.There may well be some of that, and I suspect there's also quite a bit of "just not done" there, but I think mostly you want to retire from competition with some dignity. Hachidan means at least 46 years old, more likely over 50 - at that age they are giving up a lot of physical attributes to the younger players. They're going to win in keiko but not likely in shiai. Actually I think most of these guys retire under 40. I note only 5 out of 64 at this year's all-Japans held nanadan.

[JByrd]

I think maai has a lot to do with the heavier reliance on reading, manipulating, and managing the opponent in Kendo, as opposed to most other martial arts. Because of the length of the sword, Kendoists have to stand fairly far apart, and cover a significant interval when they attack. The time it takes to cover that interval is easily enough for a prepared opponent to do something to avoid, block, or counter the attack. Therefore, we have to make sure we attack only after we have degraded our opponent's mental state to the point where we have reduced their ability to react properly.

[hyuna]

I believe the "movement vs stillness" dichotomy you find is [ ... ] due to the nature of the one touch=one point system, and the use of the shinai to establish distance.
Those are both consequences of the treatment of the shinai as a sword -- again, not a real sword, but an analog of a sword.

As I said before, we agree about intent, and the essential similarity between different arts.

[Charlie]

What a neat thread. I just read the first page and am going to make a comment before I forget, then go back and read the rest.

Basically, what we're starting with is an observation between kendo and another physical person and wondering what that means?

I'm trying to think of various martial arts enthusiasts I know and I do think the ones from empty handed arts do tend to be more physical, swaggering, less still than kendoka. Then again, a lot of the people I know are not sensei in these other arts (mma, karate, judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu or similar).

Lemme throw this out there - in kendo, the philosophical training, the mental training, is emphasized moreso than in other arts. The physicality might be the same, but I hear way more about philosophy and mental development in kendo than in any of the other arts I've encountered. Kendo and iaido have an immersive rei, too, that's missing from the other arts, or not emphasized as much in other arts. Agree, disagree?

(Goes back to read the rest.)

[Fonsz]

I'm with you along the way Charlie, but how about those Aikido folk then? They are physical but have the glow of righteousness. As if they are all "the one". Rei is very much emphasized in such a way that it resembles a cult in my opinion. They don't swagger but can look real smug. So I'm not sure if we're onto something here.

[Anonymous]

I'm with you along the way Charlie, but how about those Aikido folk then? They are physical but have the glow of righteousness. As if they are all "the one". Rei is very much emphasized in such a way that it resembles a cult in my opinion. They don't swagger but can look real smug. So I'm not sure if we're onto something here.

I've seen plenty of aikidoka with kind of a swagger, only thing is something like 90% of em can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

[Josh Reyer]

Those are both consequences of the treatment of the shinai as a sword -- again, not a real sword, but an analog of a sword.

As I said before, we agree about intent, and the essential similarity between different arts.

I'm not sure that we do, as my statement that you quoted was referring to the physical form kendo takes, not any mental conditioning. Thumb wrestling, for example, is so still that the participants don't even have to stand or move; they remain in a sitting position the whole time. Obviously this isn't the result of any mental conditioning in thumb wrestling.

[kensenbatusaii]

I've seen plenty of aikidoka with kind of a swagger, only thing is something like 90% of em can't fight their way out of a paper bag.


How plenty?

Is that the 90% of the

plenty you saw and observed

or is it the 90% of the whole practitioner?


this is a criticism not thought of properly

i myself don't know much about them

but an art is an art and you owe each

of them a respect

if you want them to respect ours


your sword is blunt

and so is your mind!!

:chinese::chinese::chinese:

[Charles Lockhar]

I'm with you along the way Charlie, but how about those Aikido folk then? They are physical but have the glow of righteousness. As if they are all "the one". Rei is very much emphasized in such a way that it resembles a cult in my opinion. They don't swagger but can look real smug. So I'm not sure if we're onto something here.

I think aikido doesn't really fit well with the spirit of that list (ie. mma, karate, judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu or similar). With the exception of maybe karate, those are all very competetive arts, like kendo.

With aikido, such a huge amount of variance, yet almost nothing that I'd consider to be really competetive.


Anonymous wrote: I've seen plenty of aikidoka with kind of a swagger, only thing is something like 90% of em can't fight their way out of a paper bag.
I don't think much of aikido, I think it's pretty flaky, and some of the behaviors I see are pretty far out there. One of the groups we overlap with had a seminar with a guest instructor, and he apparently took issue with our noise, and was telling everybody in their group how he was going to come over, take our shinai away, and give us some good beat down. Right.....

-Charles

[Chow Farn]

I don't think much of aikido, I think it's pretty flaky, and some of the behaviors I see are pretty far out there. One of the groups we overlap with had a seminar with a guest instructor, and he apparently took issue with our noise, and was telling everybody in their group how he was going to come over, take our shinai away, and give us some good beat down. Right.....

-Charles[/quote]

Some Aikido sensei - aren't they meant to be the 'tree huggers' of the Japanese arts ?

Aikido should always be refered with the internal arts like Taichiquan, Xingyiquan (Taikiken in Japan) , Baguazhang & Liuhebafa quan.
Karate, Judo, MMA are a different kettle of fish

[Anonymous]

Some Aikido sensei - aren't they meant to be the 'tree huggers' of the Japanese arts ?

Aikido should always be refered with the internal arts like Taichiquan, Xingyiquan (Taikiken in Japan) , Baguazhang & Liuhebafa quan.
Karate, Judo, MMA are a different kettle of fish


Technically, Judo, whatever flavor of JJ and even plain old wrestling are considered internal martial arts.


MMA itself isn't a martial art either, its a just a set of rules that allows for people from different backgrounds to compete against each other.

[Anonymous]

How plenty?

Is that the 90% of the

plenty you saw and observed

or is it the 90% of the whole practitioner?


this is a criticism not thought of properly

i myself don't know much about them

but an art is an art and you owe each

of them a respect

if you want them to respect ours


your sword is blunt

and so is your mind!!

:chinese::chinese::chinese:


Nothing against Aikidoka, but I have yet to see an Aikidoka that can do what they claim to be able to do against someone who has any idea as to how to fight. One of my best friends from high school is a yondan in Aikido, and if my little brother who has only been doing judo for about three months can pin him and get him to tap out, its not a good sign.

[kensenbatusaii]

Nothing against Aikidoka, but I have yet to see an Aikidoka that can do what they claim to be able to do against someone who has any idea as to how to fight. One of my best friends from high school is a yondan in Aikido, and if my little brother who has only been doing judo for about three months can pin him and get him to tap out, its not a good sign.


maybe you wont

and so do i

but perfunctory dismissal

of other arts or discipline

sends out a bad impression

of us fellow practitioners of budo

:chinese::chinese::chinese:

[Fonsz]

maybe you wont

and so do i

but perfunctory dismissal

of other arts or discipline

sends out a bad impression

of us fellow practitioners of budo

:chinese::chinese::chinese:
You don't happen to practice or have practiced Aikido by any chance? Your haiku remind me of the way that Aikidoka walk the walk and talk the talk.
It would explain a lot here.

[hyuna]

as my statement that you quoted
Maybe if you read the bits that I wrote, instead of the bits that you wrote that happen to appear in my posts, you'll better understand my position :)

[michaelm]

I practiced aikido for several years when I moved to an area where I couldn't do kendo. I really enjoyed it, but...

A practical fighting art, it is not.
A practiced budo, it depends.
A forum for mass delusions of fighting proficiency, much too often.

I enjoyed aikido for what it is, in and of itself, just like kendo. Given the time I would've continued practice, but having to choose one art to fit my schedule and personality, I choose kendo.

-michael

[Josh Reyer]

Maybe if you read the bits that I wrote, instead of the bits that you wrote that happen to appear in my posts, you'll better understand my position :)

I'm trying to understand your position, but you keep quoting me, and then disagreeing with what I write, so it makes it difficult to figure out where we agree. Hence my responses.

I entirely agree with your #3, and with just about all of your #11 and #27.

However, in #35, you quote parts of my response to Abramo, and seem to address those parts. Therefore, I interpret what you write within the context of the bit I write that you're responding to.

In #35, I express doubt that the theoretical danger of a sword (shiai as a proxy for a real swordfight) finely hones the spirit more or in a different way from unarmed physical arts. Your reply starts off:


It's not the theoretical danger, which leads me to believe that, despite #3, #11, and #27, you accept Abramo's premise that the shinai's representation of the sword hones the spirit in a way unlike other martial arts. Otherwise, I'm not exactly sure why you choose to respond to my post, except to make the rather unrelated observation that kendo takes its form from its rules, an observation I more or less agree with, only that we differ (greatly I think) on the degree to which the "shinai-as-sword" is a part of that. Further you make the point that kendo is "still" and other unarmed martial arts are not. Since the post that you responded to was about the lack of difference between the arts, again, I interpret that within the context of what you quoted above it. What I got from your #35 is "the analog of the sword makes kendo more still than other arts". Since my post was about kendo honing the spirit more than other arts, it then sounds like "Stillness represents a honing of the spirit."

I write all of this not to be jerk about any thing, but just to try and clear the air, and establish what we're talking about. Right now it looks like,

* You agree with my #32.
* You wanted to address an unrelated point in my post.
* We disagree on that point.
* The transition from the one topic to the other was not smooth. :)

To-may-to, to-mah-to, and subsequent calling of things off?

[kensenbatusaii]

You don't happen to practice or have practiced Aikido by any chance? Your haiku remind me of the way that Aikidoka walk the walk and talk the talk.
It would explain a lot here.



sadly not

so its not my place

to judge it for what it is

isn't it not the prime

goal of kendo as a way of life?

not to look down haphazardly on anyone?

:chinese::chinese::chinese:

[Anonymous]

sadly not

so its not my place

to judge it for what it is

isn't it not the prime

goal of kendo as a way of life?

not to look down haphazardly on anyone?

:chinese::chinese::chinese:

You should take a look at what you're saying and realize that you're just as bad as the rest of us kid.

[hyuna]

, which leads me to believe that, despite #3, #11, and #27, you accept Abramo's premise that the shinai's representation of the sword hones the spirit in a way unlike other martial arts.
As I said before, each art is different. Each art trains different things, or trains the same thing in different ways. It's not that the shinai's representation of the sword that makes kendo different, it's kendo's basis of the sword. But it is different. That doesn't mean that the net effect is "hones the spirit more" than a different art, but it is different.

How about this: professional boxers have to keep going under much more severe conditions than kendoka do: we may get tired, but we don't get actually beat up. That obviously requires a great deal of mental fortitude. Do they learn it the same way as kendo players do? Of course not. Do they have a more or less refined spirit? I don't know. I'm not even sure if it's a meaningful question to ask.

However, if we played kendo the way that "shinai club" or whatever guys do, treating the shinai as a stick and willy-nilly tagging each other, then I doubt we will get much "spiritual honing." Conversely, medieval recreationist types with their rattan sticks may well get as much "spiritual honing" through their practice as we do.



Further you make the point that kendo is "still" and other unarmed martial arts are not.
That was originally GZA's point (#9).



To-may-to, to-mah-to, and subsequent calling of things off?
works for me :)

[ne0r]

I'm sorry, I was too lazy to read through the whole thread, to be honest. (I read the first page) But I would still like to state my opinion.

I think, from what I've read, this thread was going into the direction of "Kendo trains the mind more than other martial arts". I don't agree on this, not because of experience (unfortunately) but because I think martial arts are all not so different from each other (as they all developped from fighting situations).
I agree with hyuna, I would first think of "different" than of "better" or "worse".
Especially in the context of budo I believe that the same concepts work more or less for all arts of it.

It's cool for anyone to glorify his/her passion, but I think it's easy to overlook some important details in other things (here: other martial arts) this way.

[ne0r]

Oh, and one thing:
At least in my young age and with my "skill" it would be hard (at least from the outside, hehe) to describe my kendo as "mental" or to say "it emphasizes mental ability more than physical fitness".

[Fonsz]

sadly not

so its not my place

to judge it for what it is

isn't it not the prime

goal of kendo as a way of life?

not to look down haphazardly on anyone?

:chinese::chinese::chinese:
Me thinks that Aikido folk are usually holier than thou and look down on the rest of the world. At least the ones I know in Europe. I couldn't care less. I practice kendo.
I still think that in Aikido circles there would be a great demand for all your haiku.
:pirate::pirate::dog::dog::jaguar::jaguar::jaguar:

[LowFatMat]

Aikidoka always sounds too much like Okeydokey for me to take them in any way seriously. No martial artist should be named so agreeably.

[Chow Farn]

Technically, Judo, whatever flavor of JJ and even plain old wrestling are considered internal martial arts.


Since when ?

All GOOD martial arts have internal training - but that does not mean that they are classed as internal.

[babayaga]

But it made me reflect on that adage, "The sword is the mind," in a new way. Kendo people are generally pretty weedy and come across like normal people. Is it that the judoka develops their body to be the weapon, and the kendoka develops their mind to be the weapon?

It might be a kind of conceit to say that, but it also strikes me as potentially quite true. A lot of people I know who do kendo but have a history in unarmed martial arts seem to be always holding back the desire to bring what for them is the real weapon, their body, into play.

Thoughts? Is this a train of thought that makes sense?

No, that makes no sense, and neither do the elitist comments that cross the line later in the thread bashing other arts.

You harvest from your arts according to what you put into them.

What you put into them.

The physical characteristics of the fellow you observed are a function of personality; not training philosophy, not brain state (i.e ADHD, which was mentioned downthread).

People who are twitchy have not trained themselves to be still, and I think that's the only fair assumption that could be made.

-B

[Charlie]

I guess my big take-away is that not all martial arts have the same emphasis on rei and decorum and that those that do turn out or have the potential to turn out a different product. Kendo is definitely something that stresses elegance, decorum, composure.

[Charles Lockhar]

No, that makes no sense, and neither do the elitist comments that cross the line later in the thread bashing other arts.

You harvest from your arts according to what you put into them.

What you put into them.

The physical characteristics of the fellow you observed are a function of personality; not training philosophy, not brain state (i.e ADHD, which was mentioned downthread).

People who are twitchy have not trained themselves to be still, and I think that's the only fair assumption that could be made.

I disagree. From personal experience, there are "martial arts" that promote and produce a variety of characteristics in their students, and for some "martial arts," that includes aggressive posturing and motion which is not limited to inside the dojo. To say that all "martial arts" create the same characteristics in their students doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I agree that the position taken in the op seems flawed to me, but methinks that the answer is somewhere in the middle, and not at the extreme sides of the spectrum.

-Charles

ps. I use quotes with martial arts because I think the term has acquired a certain, I don't know, "hokey-ness?" Not because I'm running down the "martial arts" that I'm referring to.

pps.
No, that makes no sense, and neither do the elitist comments that cross the line later in the thread bashing other arts.Based on personal experience training in aikido, I don't think very highly of it, and I feel that it's ok for me to say that. It's not bashing, it's me stating my opinion, no matter what "line" you've drawn that I, or possibly others, have crossed.

[GZA]

I think it comes down more to the teacher than the art. If you had some dirty kendo sensei than naturally his students would act and carry themselves poorly.

[iaidoka kid]

Aikido is a good effective M.A but its not the martial art if one is seeking quick fairly simple combat techniques. Aikidokas will probably look at learning and understanding the principle and techniques rather than the practicle application right away. With it being more of a Do form it may take longer to become proficient in it (within a combative context) than say the more Jutsu orientated arts. It isn't for everyone admittedly but it depends what one is seeking from their own training.

[Kagerou]

I think it comes down more to the teacher than the art. If you had some dirty kendo sensei than naturally his students would act and carry themselves poorly.

How does dirt relate to someones character?

I knew a homeless man in my hometown who was more dignified and well read than most of my university professors.

[Mr. T.]

It isn't for everyone admittedly but it depends what one is seeking from their own training.

And there in lies the problem with aikido. Aikido attracts a lot of "enlightened" wannabees a.k.a. tree huggers. They want to resolve a fight with non-violence and blending with the opponents’ energy and all that. Once a fight starts it's ass whooping time. They are forgetting that aikido is a MARTIAL art and thus forget to train aikido like one. There is nothing wrong with training aikido like some physical exercise or to do it so you can blend with the ki of the enemy, but be honest about it and don't act as if you are invincible. Because that is the problem with a load of aikidoka; they hit each other like 5 year old girls do the technique against a totally non-resistant opponent et viola they (think :D) they are invincible. Just because Ueshiba sensei was unbeatable does mean the aikidoka is. Ueshiba was a nasty piece of work in his younger years, a real fighter. 99 % of the aikidoka are not.

The other 1 % knows how to fight and to apply the techniques because they have actual fighting experience and know stuff besides aikido to survive a fight. Aikido useful, yes, if trained properly, but most of the time it's not.

This goes for sword arts, like kendo and iaido, as well. There is nothing wrong with acting like some warrior swordsman in the dojo (you're supposed to), but don't claim to be some swordfighter to others, because your are not. Have you ever been into a real sword fight, doubt it, so as long as we as JSA practitioners do not claim we are real swordfighters, but just practitioners of JSA, then we don't make an ass out of ourselves. In the dojo (and in your mind) you are the swordfighter trying to outsmart/beat the opponent without getting killed, but as soon as you leave the dojo you’re just a fencer, not a warrior wannabee. It’s one of the reasons I say a do a type of Japanese fencing, to explain kendo, instead of Japanese sword fighting (because I not that).

Done ranting. Good day.

[Shinsengumi77]

How does dirt relate to someones character?

I knew a homeless man in my hometown who was more dignified and well read than most of my university professors.

I don't think "dirty" literally meant unclean.

[iaidoka kid]

"Enlightened wannabe's" a phrase ive admittedly never heard, I quite like it!:). Yes Im sure aikido has its share of the more mild tempered M.A practitioner. However for me this is one of the interesing and nice aspects of it, in that it holds appeal to a wide range of people. It is the practioners like Shioda sensei, Ueshiba Sensei who really knew how to apply or adapt it within a combative context. However this highlights the difference between taking a more jutsu approach to doing things compared to the do. Ueshibas early aikido was more aiki jutsu, and Yoshinkan was born more out of the Pre-war aikido. This kind of brings us back to what people want from there M.A practice as well.

[Mr. T.]

The fact that aikido attracts all kinds of people, mostly the more mellow kind, is not the problem. It's the way they train. If you want it for physical exercise, fine by me, you want it to reach enlightenment by doing aikido, no problem, you want to learn how to defend yourself, than train hard, very hard. Not like the cuddling harmonizing stuff you see in almost every dojo. Learning how to fight (and/or defend yourself) is hard and painful. You need to know how to fight. Please don't give me that crap I heard so many times: "We don't need to know how to fight, this a defensive art". BARF, PUKE. Complete BS, if you don't know how to kick and punch, you can NEVER prepare your dojo mates for a fight because you will be a lousy uke. Wimpy uke attacks have never prepared any one for a fight, if it did, the army would train that way. Learning how to deal with the pain, confusion and all he other stuff that comes with fighting cannot be taught in a soft hearted manner. Unfortunately most aikido is trained very soft hearted, nothing wrong with that, but those who train that way often think they can actually defend themselves. The illusion of knowing how to fight can be a dangerous thing.

Often people go to a martial art to learn how to defend themselves (iaidoka, kendoka, jodoka, etc are obvious exceptions). However when they do, they choose an art that fits their character, instead of picking an effective art. If you want to have fun, pick an art that suits you (I do iaido and kendo), but if you want to survive a fight don't do all soft and mushy, pick something useful like judo, jujutsu, Muay Thai, karate, that kind of stuff or hardcore aikido like yoshikan.

Let's be honest, Ueshiba and Shioda where fighters, especially when they where young. Have you ever looked into an aikido dojo, almost no fighters. Lot's of aikidoka, but no fighters. Lot's of aikidoka want to be like "O-sensei", well hate to say it, but the soft and touchy stuff he came up with... good for him, he knew how to fight... we don't.

Damn, I'm ranting AGAIN.

Like you said, it's what you want from a martial art. But don't expect you can fight when you don't train for it.

[Anonymous]

Aikido is a good effective M.A but its not the martial art if one is seeking quick fairly simple combat techniques. Aikidokas will probably look at learning and understanding the principle and techniques rather than the practicle application right away. With it being more of a Do form it may take longer to become proficient in it (within a combative context) than say the more Jutsu orientated arts. It isn't for everyone admittedly but it depends what one is seeking from their own training.

Bahahaha, no. If you train constantly with compliant partners, and have absolutely no realistic sparring whatsoever, you're going to get beaten into a bloody pulp by anyone who has some idea as to what they're doing. I did aikido for about two years since there wasn't anything else available other than wrestling, and to be quite honest a high school wrester is going to take a dan ranking aikidoka and hand his ass to him. I've done it myself (of course by that time I was shodan in karate, but I didn't like the idea of punching my friends when I had them pinned on the ground.)

[hl1978]

Bahahaha, no. If you train constantly with compliant partners, and have absolutely no realistic sparring whatsoever, you're going to get beaten into a bloody pulp by anyone who has some idea as to what they're doing. I did aikido for about two years since there wasn't anything else available other than wrestling, and to be quite honest a high school wrester is going to take a dan ranking aikidoka and hand his ass to him. I've done it myself (of course by that time I was shodan in karate, but I didn't like the idea of punching my friends when I had them pinned on the ground.)

Something has been lost in aikido, but it once was there:

In October of 1930, Professor Kano paid a special visit to the founder at the temporary Mejiro Dojo. I have heard it said that he even commented, “This is what I call the ideal budo; that is to say, the true and genuine judo.” After Professor Kano returned to his Kodokan he told one of his close associates:

To tell the truth I would like to have Ueshiba here at the Kodokan, but since he is a master in his own right, that is quite impossible. As a second choice I would like to send some of our own talent to train with Ueshiba and try to promote an exchange between the two systems.

Its starting to come back with renewed interest in what powers aiki (you have senior guys training outside their system to bring it back in, even in japan). Its this misunderstanding/loss that results in people throwing themselves, or belief in technique, rather than having such a vast power differential that it results in someone being thrown. When you have an equal amount of power, people don't get tossed in such a way.

Ueshiba and others were training fanatics doing tons of reps of solo body work. While he did have some religious revelations, most westerners are a bit confused as to what he is talking about harmonizing, the ki of heaven and earth etc. People latch on to this stuff for the wrong reasons. At first glance, this seems like metaphysical poppycock, but in reality it’s one phrase to describe a multitude of actions within the body that result in a singular skill. In kendo we refer to this as ki-ken-tai ichi.

There does seem to be some relationship to the concept of mushin (which also occurs in chado and shodo by the way). There are also a number of other parallels here between these arts and budo), in that by the time your body is trained in such a way, whatever your bodies natural reaction is, becomes the technique (not meaning techniques are memorized, but rather any motion).

See my comments elsewhere about shin tai gi versus tai gi shin.

[Kenzan]

Something has been lost in aikido, but it once was there:


My feeling is, what was "lost", probably came from the other arts that Ueshiba studied prior to the mystical experience that led him to create Aikido.
My apologies to many Aikidoka out there, but I tend to agree with some others here in that as it exists now, Aikido it is not very practical as a realistic self-defense system, and perhaps this is more likely due to the fact that realistic, toe to toe combat is not practiced as part of the art as far as I have ever seen.

As far as the "Ki" aspect of it, don't even get me started.

[hl1978]

My feeling is, what was "lost", probably came from the other arts that Ueshiba studied prior to the mystical experience that led him to create Aikido.
My apologies to many Aikidoka out there, but I tend to agree with some others here in that as it exists now, Aikido it is not very practical as a realistic self-defense system, and perhaps this is more likely due to the fact that realistic, toe to toe combat is not practiced as part of the art as far as I have ever seen.

As far as the "Ki" aspect of it, don't even get me started.

Yeah it goes back to Takeda Sokaku, who interestingly enough studo Ono ha Itto Ryu, which brings us back to our on topic kendo connection :D

I don't want to get started on ki either, but there are some guys I can put you in touch with on your trip to japan that can help sort out all the stuff I have posted over the years. They're also compete in MMA if that's your bag. I'm not going to go any further on that point of topic.

[Kenzan]

I don't want to get started on ki either, but there are some guys I can put you in touch with on your trip to japan that can help sort out all the stuff I have posted over the years.


They'll sort me out, eh?
Heh.

[hl1978]

They'll sort me out, eh?
Heh.

Nah. No ego, just hard training followed by beer, same as elsewhere in japan. :D

All of the real training in japanese martial arts seems to occur when beer is involved, thats when the tips and "secrets" come out. Buddy of mine joined me in Japan and said that he drank more in 1 week in Tokyo than a couple weeks in Germany.

[Kenzan]

Nah. No ego, just hard training followed by beer, same as elsewhere in japan. :D

All of the real training in japanese martial arts seems to occur when beer is involved, thats when the tips and "secrets" come out. Buddy of mine joined me in Japan and said that he drank more in 1 week in Tokyo than a couple weeks in Germany.

(High English Snooty Tone)

BEER?! (Sniff) How simply pedestrian my good man....Nigorizake is simply where it's at!

But seriously.
Beer makes my tummy pop out.

[pgsmith]

Complete BS, if you don't know how to kick and punch, you can NEVER prepare your dojo mates for a fight because you will be a lousy uke.
OK, this is where I always have to throw my two cents worth into these arguments. First, unless you are going to be fighting professionally such as UFC or NHB arena fighting, you will never actually engage in a fight with a trained fighter. The most valuable preparation that any martial art can give you as far as real world situations is awareness, and almost any martial art can teach you that. Anyone that believes they are learning martial arts in order to learn how to fight is deluding themselves. I grew up on the bad side of a rough city. I've been in and seen many, many fights when I was younger. There is no martial art that teaches you how to deal with a real fight, but luckily none of us are likely to ever get in one.

Learning how to deal with the pain, confusion and all he other stuff that comes with fighting cannot be taught in a soft hearted manner.
Again, you're talking about match fighting with rules and referees. If you're going to train for that, then you need to train specifically for that, not in any one standard martial art.

Unfortunately most aikido is trained very soft hearted, nothing wrong with that, but those who train that way often think they can actually defend themselves.
As I stated earlier, awareness is the biggest component of defending yourself. Second most important, is adrenaline control. Regular randori in aikido can teach this easily.

The illusion of knowing how to fight can be a dangerous thing.
Only if you're young and stupid, in which case you deserve to be beaten! :) In the real world, predators look for victims. If someone carries themselves as if they know how to protect themselves, and they display good awareness of their surroundings, the predators will not see them as easy victims and will look for someone else. This means that the illusion of knowing how to fight can be a very good self defense tactic. As long as you believe it, it doesn't necessarily have to be true.

But don't expect you can fight when you don't train for it.
By the same token, don't expect that you can fight just because you do train for it. :)

[hl1978]

OK, this is where I always have to throw my two cents worth into these arguments. First, unless you are going to be fighting professionally such as UFC or NHB arena fighting, you will never actually engage in a fight with a trained fighter. The most valuable preparation that any martial art can give you as far as real world situations is awareness, and almost any martial art can teach you that. Anyone that believes they are learning martial arts in order to learn how to fight is deluding themselves. I grew up on the bad side of a rough city. I've been in and seen many, many fights when I was younger. There is no martial art that teaches you how to deal with a real fight, but luckily none of us are likely to ever get in one.

Again, you're talking about match fighting with rules and referees. If you're going to train for that, then you need to train specifically for that, not in any one standard martial art.


You raise some good points, and echo much of what Rob Redmond wrote on his old 24 fighting chickens website years ago.

The fighting skills taught for most martial arts are setup for 1 on 1 "duels", on even surfaces, clear of debris. People training for matches against other highly conditioned fighters, who are not intending to kill you, along with people who will step in and stop the fight. Most martial arts, kendo included, train for a single range/type of combat, and pretend/dismiss those other ranges don't exist or that they will be able to deal with it within their existing skillset. You can go see videos of streetfights that involve some highly ranked pro Thai Muay Thai guys and see that things go a lot different when they are out of their environment.

You are exactly right, carry yourself properly, learn awareness and others will pick softer targets.

[Anonymous]

You raise some good points, and echo much of what Rob Redmond wrote on his old 24 fighting chickens website years ago.

The fighting skills taught for most martial arts are setup for 1 on 1 "duels", on even surfaces, clear of debris. People training for matches against other highly conditioned fighters, who are not intending to kill you, along with people who will step in and stop the fight. Most martial arts, kendo included, train for a single range/type of combat, and pretend/dismiss those other ranges don't exist or that they will be able to deal with it within their existing skillset. You can go see videos of streetfights that involve some highly ranked pro Thai Muay Thai guys and see that things go a lot different when they are out of their environment.

You are exactly right, carry yourself properly, learn awareness and others will pick softer targets.


otoh, people who have fairly wide bases as far as MA training go will tend to steamroll the average joe in a barfight etc.

[pgsmith]

otoh, people who have fairly wide bases as far as MA training go will tend to steamroll the average joe in a barfight etc.
If someone is so drunk that I can't talk them out of fighting at a bar, it hardly takes MA training to overcome them. All it takes is keeping your head and getting out of their way as they rush at you. :)

[GZA]

How does dirt relate to someones character?

I knew a homeless man in my hometown who was more dignified and well read than most of my university professors.

because any person of sound charactor would realize that this "sensei" was no good and quit going to him/her. The people who stay are the people who buy into the BS

[Kagerou]

because any person of sound charactor would realize that this "sensei" was no good and quit going to him/her. The people who stay are the people who buy into the BS

that's dishonest not dirty. They're not always the same thing.

[Mr. T.]

OK, this is where I always have to throw my two cents worth into these arguments. First, unless you are going to be fighting professionally such as UFC or NHB arena fighting, you will never actually engage in a fight with a trained fighter.
OK true. However, in most gyms you can have the opportunity to train and spar with experienced ring fighters. It gives you the chance of training with people that know what happens to you as a person when you enter a fight, be in in the ring or on the street. I've been told by several experienced fighters that if you're not ready for the adrenaline rush, the pain and all that stuff, you techniques goes to hell and consequently so do you (in other words: you're going to get a serious ass whooping). Not all of the amateur fighters will go full contact and all out during sparring, but it still beats the compliant randori/kata attitude.

The most valuable preparation that any martial art can give you as far as real world situations is awareness, and almost any martial art can teach you that.
I know, but I'm talking about the moment when the situation has escalated and physical confrontation can not be avoided.

Anyone that believes they are learning martial arts in order to learn how to fight is deluding themselves. I grew up on the bad side of a rough city. I've been in and seen many, many fights when I was younger. There is no martial art that teaches you how to deal with a real fight, but luckily none of us are likely to ever get in one.
Not entirely true, to some degree you can train yourself to prepare yourself of when the moment comes:

As I stated earlier, awareness is the biggest component of defending yourself. Second most important, is adrenaline control. Regular randori in aikido can teach this easily.
No it doesn't. I've never been afraid during randori, because I knew I wasn’t going to be hit hard when I f***** up. The adrenalin rush of getting hit was (almost) non-existent. I did a small bit of Thai boxing as well. The adrenalin was rushing through my system when I was sparring. When I screwed up, I got my ass kicked, big time. I came home with a black eye several times, been hit in the liver, etc. all because I screwed up during sparring. I've never been hit by my uke during aikido in a way that bothered me or really hurt. Don't tell me my aikido dojo was an exception, every aikidoka I ever met trained randori basically the same way we did. With compliant and a worthless attack by the uke. Without a previous MA background, aikidoka attack like a wet paper towel, this leads to attacks without proper intention. I believe that intention is the key word here and intention is what aikidoka are missing during randori. Training to defend yourself against worthless attacks leads to an unprepared victim.

Again, you're talking about match fighting with rules and referees. If you're going to train for that, then you need to train specifically for that, not in any one standard martial art.
If I ever have to choose between fighting a full contact fighter (kickboxer/mma fighter/judoka/etc.) and an aikidoka on the street (no rules), guess whose ass is mine. It's not the one with ring experience :ko:
Training with rules isn't ideal, but at least the person who stood in the ring knows how to respond to someone trying to beat the crap out of you.

By the same token, don't expect that you can fight just because you do train for it. :)
Agreed, but tell that to the aikido folks.

[iaidoka kid]

Attacks without intent, something I have come across and yeah it's one thing that does get to me some times, both on the mat and in the iai dojo. Some people I have come across though seem to think that intent means attacking really quick which isn't always the case. Even the more stylised attacks in aikido of yokomenuchi and shomenuchi should have intent within them.
As for fighting out there in the street or in the ring then MMA would be the much more suitable choice for those wishing to do that. The thing with aikido randori in my view (please feel free to add your own) is that it is not so much teaching you how to fight as such, but how to keep a calm mind when there is lots going on around you and also to react and not to just stand there. Both handy qualities to have me thinks whether it is a combat situation or not.

[Anonymous]

If someone is so drunk that I can't talk them out of fighting at a bar, it hardly takes MA training to overcome them. All it takes is keeping your head and getting out of their way as they rush at you. :)

Most fights of that sort that I've seen were punks hanging around outside waiting for convenient targets to rob.

[ben]

Interesting drift. I'm glad it got beyond the old "aikidoka are wusses" tangent.

I'd like to revisit something from my first post, which is a related question. That is, how many of you with prior experience in unarmed MA find it hard to suppress the desire to use the body when doing jigeiko? Does this desire pop up at all? Even just as a thought: "if only I could bust out a quick <insert waza name here>, I'd be able to take this sucker/have more fun."

b

[hl1978]

I'd like to revisit something from my first post, which is a related question. That is, how many of you with prior experience in unarmed MA find it hard to suppress the desire to use the body when doing jigeiko? Does this desire pop up at all? Even just as a thought: "if only I could bust out a quick <insert waza name here>, I'd be able to take this sucker/have more fun."


Not so much now, but when I first started, every time I wound up in tsuba zerai or chikai maai i wanted to punch/kick/trip/throw my opponent (or hit with the tsuka gashira), because those were the ranges of combat I had the most experience in. If you think about it, prewar kendo or police kendo would make a pretty good MMA style and defeat most arguments about "aliveness" (have striking, grappling, chokes, throws, and weapons all in one art).

Now, I use some stuff I have learned elsewhere when preforming taiatari, or doing menuchi to put more weight behind the strikes, but I have to admit a good punch or kick once in a while would create some openings for a solid men strike :D

[Shinsengumi77]

Interesting drift. I'm glad it got beyond the old "aikidoka are wusses" tangent.

I'd like to revisit something from my first post, which is a related question. That is, how many of you with prior experience in unarmed MA find it hard to suppress the desire to use the body when doing jigeiko? Does this desire pop up at all? Even just as a thought: "if only I could bust out a quick <insert waza name here>, I'd be able to take this sucker/have more fun."

b

I've never been tempted to perform any unarmed techniques, but it's interesting that so many of the concepts and techniques in Kendo are surprisingly in accord with what I've learned in the unarmed arts. I also don't feel bored or anything with Jigeiko (or with Kendo in general), which is probably why I've never given it a thought.

[GZA]

that's dishonest not dirty. They're not always the same thing.

come on now, that's just splitting hairs on grammer.

[hyuna]

That is, how many of you with prior experience in unarmed MA find it hard to suppress the desire to use the body when doing jigeiko?
It occurs to me from time to time that some more physicality in kendo could do wonders to teach a person that zanshin is more than running through, or why allowing your hands to be thrown up over your head as you come in for taiatari is a bad idea, or any number of other lessons that we try to teach people but cannot demonstrate by simply hitting them as we normally do. But I'm not really "experienced in unarmed MA" -- it's just an observation.

[J Mettler]

Interesting drift. I'm glad it got beyond the old "aikidoka are wusses" tangent.

I'd like to revisit something from my first post, which is a related question. That is, how many of you with prior experience in unarmed MA find it hard to suppress the desire to use the body when doing jigeiko? Does this desire pop up at all? Even just as a thought: "if only I could bust out a quick <insert waza name here>, I'd be able to take this sucker/have more fun."

b


Well when I did tae kwon do, and later when I did kickboxing, I learned to use my elbows to block something coming in to the floating ribs... Today at practice we did shiai to get ready for a taikai on sunday, and I found myself blocking Do with my elbow... consiquently I have a rather sizable and colorfull lump on my arm. Not really a waza, but it is something from my unarmed MA days that is gonna haunt me...

[Mr. T.]

Attacks without intent, something I have come across and yeah it's one thing that does get to me some times, both on the mat and in the iai dojo.

From what I see, it's a problem with most MA without sparring. If you don't watch out, your MA becomes a sort of dance. I guess it's all about how you approach your MA. Aikido might work (it didn't for me), but only if you approach it as a MA and not the lovey-dovey stuff you see all the time.


The thing with aikido randori in my view (please feel free to add your own) is that it is not so much teaching you how to fight as such, but how to keep a calm mind when there is lots going on around you and also to react and not to just stand there.

Really nice, if that is your take on aikido. But does this philosophy also apply in a fight? I agree you need to know what happens around you when you end up in a fight or other chaotic environment, but knowing what happens around you when your ass is handed to you is rather pointless. So as long as people are aware of the limitations of their way training (in this case aikido, but this also applies to every other MA) there is no problem. The problems (and the annoying part) starts with the delusions a lot MAists, especially aikidoka, have.


That is, how many of you with prior experience in unarmed MA find it hard to suppress the desire to use the body when doing jigeiko? Does this desire pop up at all?

To me it happens when instincts kick in, this is when I'm exhausted. But my guess is that it has little to do with the previous MAs I've done. It has more to do with inexperience I have with kendo. At some point the body refuses to relax and exhaustion kicks in. For some odd reason when I'm exhausted I feel the need to compensate with strength (which I don't have) when attacking rather than relax and go for the proper technique, which is obviously much more effective (and less exhausting). It's an instinct I believe most of us beginner have a problem with. It must be a sad thing to see, me trying to use strength, especially because I'm a really skinny guy with very little muscle. :confused2

I don’t get physical though (maybe not enough experience with the other MA). However possibility of kneeing some one during tai atari has been very tempting with some opponents :D

[pgsmith]

From what I see, it's a problem with most MA without sparring. If you don't watch out, your MA becomes a sort of dance. I guess it's all about how you approach your MA. Aikido might work (it didn't for me), but only if you approach it as a MA and not the lovey-dovey stuff you see all the time.
It's not a problem unless sparring and physicality is what you want out of a martial art, then you'd need to go elsewhere. Personally, I don't like getting beat on ... pain hurts! If I feel the need for pain, I can smack my head against a wall for free rather than pay someone to beat me up. :D However, I have friends that view it differently, and love the contact and ferocity of Muay Thai. Different strokes I suppose. The biggest thing is to make sure you don't dismiss someone's ability to defend themselves just because they don't spar. Self defense is about a cool head and sheer determination rather than any fancy moves or practice in a ring.

[Anonymous]

It's not a problem unless sparring and physicality is what you want out of a martial art, then you'd need to go elsewhere..

Tell that to the tons of aikidoka who think they can fight their way out of a paper bag. You *need* some sort of real non-compliant training for it to be effective at all. Even point sparring is better than dancing in hakama.



Interesting drift. I'm glad it got beyond the old "aikidoka are wusses" tangent.

I'd like to revisit something from my first post, which is a related question. That is, how many of you with prior experience in unarmed MA find it hard to suppress the desire to use the body when doing jigeiko? Does this desire pop up at all? Even just as a thought: "if only I could bust out a quick <insert waza name here>, I'd be able to take this sucker/have more fun."


Never had the temptation to do that kinda stuff, but I do think it would be a whole lot more fun if we could. I *did* "punch" one of my friends in the gut once for coming in to taiatari with his hands in the air though.

[Nanbanjin]

The wit is the rapier

[pgsmith]

Tell that to the tons of aikidoka who think they can fight their way out of a paper bag. You *need* some sort of real non-compliant training for it to be effective at all.
But therein lies the problem. What do you mean by fight? If you're talking about getting in a ring and going a few rounds, I'd have to agree with you whole-heartedly. But then again, that's not what aikido is for. If you're talking about defending yourself from some random maniac that has attacked you in the street, then the aikidoka is going to do just as well as the person with "non-compliant training", provided they both have the same level of determination to kill their attacker. If you're talking about defending yourself from a gang of thugs that have jumped on you out of nowhere, then the aikidoka will probably fare better than the person with "non-compliant training" since randori teaches them to keep track of several people all moving at once, whereas sparring involves sole concentration on a single opponent. Again though, this is dependent on them both having the same desire to kill their attackers.

[JSchmidt]

Well when I did tae kwon do, and later when I did kickboxing, I learned to use my elbows to block something coming in to the floating ribs... Today at practice we did shiai to get ready for a taikai on sunday, and I found myself blocking Do with my elbow... consiquently I have a rather sizable and colorfull lump on my arm. Not really a waza, but it is something from my unarmed MA days that is gonna haunt me...

You don't need to have done TKD or kickboxing to do that. Everybody tries that at least once, regardless of their background.

[Wesley Myers]

I'd like to revisit something from my first post, which is a related question. That is, how many of you with prior experience in unarmed MA find it hard to suppress the desire to use the body when doing jigeiko? Does this desire pop up at all? Even just as a thought: "if only I could bust out a quick <insert waza name here>, I'd be able to take this sucker/have more fun."

b

Personally, I was afraid it would be harder than it has been. I was worried I might try to kick or strike (with hand) when sparring. Thankfully that has only only been a few fleeting thoughts of, "oh! If only I could ...". I think the concept of holding the sword keeps the mind focused.

I have specifically concentrated on NOT doing anything from TKD (or any other facet of life) in Kendo and trying to do techniques in as proper a form as I can in order to learn proper Kendo.

[Anonymous]

But therein lies the problem. What do you mean by fight? If you're talking about getting in a ring and going a few rounds, I'd have to agree with you whole-heartedly. But then again, that's not what aikido is for. If you're talking about defending yourself from some random maniac that has attacked you in the street, then the aikidoka is going to do just as well as the person with "non-compliant training", provided they both have the same level of determination to kill their attacker. If you're talking about defending yourself from a gang of thugs that have jumped on you out of nowhere, then the aikidoka will probably fare better than the person with "non-compliant training" since randori teaches them to keep track of several people all moving at once, whereas sparring involves sole concentration on a single opponent. Again though, this is dependent on them both having the same desire to kill their attackers.

Doubtful, the aikidoka will have absolutely no experience dealing with some punk who isn't going to just flop over and roll on the ground. And as far as dealing with multiple opponents, the aikidoka is just as screwed. People with experience in other arts can keep track of multiple targets as well, but nobody has eyes on the back of their head. All it takes is someone to tackle him from behind so the rest of his buddies can kick the crap out of him. And thats where generic sports players have the advantage...in running and getting the hell out of there.


I don't hate Aikido, I personally think its kinda fun, but I can't stand the fact that people think its useful for anything other than possibly restraining someone who is drunk out of their mind.

[J Mettler]

You don't need to have done TKD or kickboxing to do that. Everybody tries that at least once, regardless of their background.

Really? HUZAH! I'm not the only one that didn't do the math: hard(ish) bamboo+soft fleshy arm= OUCH! WHY DID I DO THAT!

[iaidoka kid]

Personally my take on dealing with multiple attackers :eek: would be to get the hell out of there!! :eek: However I think it would be a fair judgement to make that if any one regardless of the MA training was set up on by multiple apponents then they would have a difficult time dealing with it.
The other thing though is that all martial arts have their merits, karate good dynamic strikes, aikido powerfull locks, Kendo loads of spirit, Jujutsu, practicality. However they also have their fault to. It very much depends on what the practitioner is seeking from their training. The thing with aikido is that one doesn't or shouldn't go into it thinking they are going to learn how to fight as it is more defence orientated. However one does need to show that fighting spirit and intensity later on. Yes I would say that it is effective, albeit more in the higher levels but alot of it depends on the practitioner and how he/she has approached their training, and there is a point albeit more in the advanced stages when aikido can become effective against not so pliant ukes. Thing is it takes time as it is more of a do form rather than a Jutsu.

[Mr. T.]

Personally my take on dealing with multiple attackers :eek: would be to get the hell out of there!! :eek: However I think it would be a fair judgement to make that if any one regardless of the MA training was set up on by multiple apponents then they would have a difficult time dealing with it.

Tried it and done it during aikido, still think it's BS. The simple fact is that you can only handle one attacker at time. Take 'm out and then the next one. no time for fancy aikido stuff. If the situation doesn't allow you to handle one attacker at the time, which is most of the times with multiple attackers, you're screwed. No martial art can help you with that.


The thing with aikido is that one doesn't or shouldn't go into it thinking they are going to learn how to fight as it is more defence orientated.

Heard that BS a 100 times or more. You need to practice with real (as safety allows) attacks. I'm not saying you need to be some kind of killing machine to know how defend yourself (although it does help a lot), but you should at least have some basic fighting skill to be able to practice for a real attack. If you don't want to train like that, I have absolutely no problem with that, be at least be realistic about it. :confused2


However one does need to show that fighting spirit and intensity later on. Yes I would say that it is effective, albeit more in the higher levels but alot of it depends on the practitioner and how he/she has approached their training, and there is a point albeit more in the advanced stages when aikido can become effective against not so pliant ukes.

How do they know, are they training with noncompliant uke? Are they training with folks who posses grapping skills and with folks who can kick and punch, or are they still training with each other? If they belong to the last group you can bet your ass on it that they will get into serious trouble if they have to fight. Fighting spirit is nice, but you need more. I show enough fighting spirit in kendo, but I still get my ass kicked because I lack kendo skills.


Thing is it takes time as it is more of a do form rather than a Jutsu.

Fairy tales. A judoka posses some skills to defend himself after a year, a kendoka can do a bit of kendo after a year, with karate-do you can fight a bit after a year so why do aikidoka have to convince themselves that it takes about 10 years to get to that point?